Shiavio autopsy

[Tribesman]

With the release of the autopsy has anyone got any comments on the numerous accusations made at the time ?
Not about the rights and wrongs of the removal of the feeding tube , but about the supposed wife beating , strangulation , mis diagnosis of the PVS and the "benefits" that further therapy may have had ?

An interesting note is that her parents are now considering taking legal action against the coroner as they don't like the results of his report ~:confused:

[bmolsson]

Only in US......

[PanzerJaeger]

Havent seen anything written about it but i assume the allegations werent true?

I dont blame the parents for saying anything to save their daughter, but suing the examiner is just bitterness.

I still hold my stance on that whole chain of events - its better to err on the side of life. :bow:

[Tribesman]

Only in US......
Thats a bit of a blanket statement .
A little innacurate as well , I am going to a friends wedding in London in August , she has been linked to the Save Terri campaign in Britain for about 5 years . She was adamant that the husband was a wife abuser , her condition was treatable and there was no evidence of PVS .
Should I mention the findings from the autopsy at the wedding? :hide:

edit to add
its better to err on the side of life.
I agree , but it was not my choice to make .
The issue I had with the whole episode were the numerous unfounded allegations being thrown about all the time .

[Productivity]

Here Panzer. (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8804058&pageNumber=0)

Basically none of the parents' claims were true. Still your right, I can see why they were trying.

[PanzerJaeger]

Well Im the first to admit I believed these stories. Shame on me and all those who got their information from the tabloid press... still doesnt change my opinion about what should have happened. It would be nice for the parents to apologize now that its all over - they basically had us ( the supporters ) repeating their lies. :shame:

[IrishMike]

Should I mention the findings from the autopsy at the wedding? :hide:

Do it, personally I think it would be hilarious, but you run the gambit of getting slapped.

I am glad they did this autopsy so we could put away with the bitterness and controversy

[JAG]

Well Im the first to admit I believed these stories. Shame on me and all those who got their information from the tabloid press... still doesnt change my opinion about what should have happened. It would be nice for the parents to apologize now that its all over - they basically had us ( the supporters ) repeating their lies. :shame:

This may seem a bit harsh - but you were damn fools to believe what they said in the first place. Seemed fairly obvious it was an attempt to smear the husband and thus hand moral advantage and positioning for them to make the decision. I suppose it worked to some degree as well.

[PanzerJaeger]

Well thats what I get for stepping back from an ideological stance. ~:eek:

[Proletariat]

Yeah, you big idiot. They told you so. Let this be a lesson learned, don't ever question JAG again.

:dizzy2:

[Navaros]

who is to say that this coroner who did the autopsy made a correct finding?

oftentimes if you go to 20 different doctors about the same issue; many of them may give you same - yet untrue -information. whereas a few will give you entirely different -yet correct - information

no doubt it is the same thing with this coroner

heck, there is an incompetent coroner in Canada right now who's incompetence has resulted in over 1000 wrongful prison convictions!!!

i just saw that on the news the other night

so you see, one coroner is certainly not "God", and his findings needn't be seen as any sort of "absolute truth". the guy who examined Schiavo is just one man who very well may be wrong, and have an agenda to make one exact conclusion no matter what

[Tribesman]

Do it, personally I think it would be hilarious, but you run the gambit of getting slapped.
In this case Coldnight that would constitute a miracle . ~:cool:
You should have heard her reaction when I said I supported abortion under some circumstances (which I don't) ~D ~D ~D

[Proletariat]

Should I mention the findings from the autopsy at the wedding? :hide:


C'mon, Tribes. You've got to much to class to do that at the wedding.

Now if the reception is open bar...I say it's fair game.

[KukriKhan]

This may seem a bit harsh - but you were damn fools to believe what they said in the first place.

The only thing saving this post from being a forum rules violation is the 's' at the end of the word 'fool', making 'you' an amorphous, undefined group.

So: well-played JAG. I advise against dancing so close to the edge in future.

[Grey_Fox]

who is to say that this coroner who did the autopsy made a correct finding?

Schiavo's brain had shrunk to half the size of that of a normal human female. That is undeniable fact, and Yahoo claims that the husband will release pictures of it.

[Proletariat]

All this means is that those who wanted her dead "guessed" right.

[English assassin]

Come on, I don't think anyone actually "wanted" her dead. If Navaros's god had manifested himself and miraculously raised Terri to health we wold all have been delighted.

Also I don't think many people were "guessing". My view, in so far as I had one, was that I was happy for the medical professionals to be free to take the decision they felt was in the best interests of their patient. I assumed and still assume they will do so on evidence and applying professional judgement, which is not the same as a guess.

Happily it turns out their view of her medical state was correct. Although its a relief, although not an unexpected one, as it happens I am not sure it really makes much difference to what to do when the next case comes along.

One thing I must say about the parents is the next time such a case does arise some people are going to say "remember all the bull they said about terri", so by overstepping the facts in this case the parents have done the whole "life at any cost2 camp a disservice.

[Proletariat]

My view, in so far as I had one, was that I was happy for the medical professionals to be free to take the decision they felt was in the best interests of their patient. I assumed and still assume they will do so on evidence and applying professional judgement, which is not the same as a guess.


Why? From the inside looking out on the medical field, I can tell you that this field is littered with as much imcompetence as any other in it's category. Just because they're doctors doesn't mean their ethically sound or even accurate all the time.



One thing I must say about the parents is the next time such a case does arise some people are going to say "remember all the bull they said about terri", so by overstepping the facts in this case the parents have done the whole "life at any cost2 camp a disservice.

Very true. Shameless of them.

[Navaros]

who is to say that this coroner who did the autopsy made a correct finding?

Schiavo's brain had shrunk to half the size of that of a normal human female. That is undeniable fact, and Yahoo claims that the husband will release pictures of it.


perhaps the statement about the size of her brain is true. however, that does not by default equate to meaning that everything the coroner has said is true

[Productivity]

perhaps the statement about the size of her brain is true. however, that does not by default equate to meaning that everything the coroner has said is true

And on the other hand they may not be biased. Until you provide proof that is more substantial than simply disagreeing with you, I am going to use Occam's Razor and go with the idea that the coroner is right.

[English assassin]

Why? From the inside looking out on the medical field, I can tell you that this field is littered with as much imcompetence as any other in it's category. Just because they're doctors doesn't mean their ethically sound or even accurate all the time

I'm sure that's right. I suppose its an occupational hazard of being in a profession (albeit a different one to yours) that I'm inclined to (over)respect professional opinion. I accept its not infallable, god knows I've made enough wrong calls myself, but its likely to be the best option available.

There are limits of course. I'd back a doctors judgement on whether Terri would recover and what her quality of life was. It doesn't follow that the doctor should decide whether or not society should allow someone in that state to die. That's why the case went to court (it being well known that lawyers have higher developed moral standards than medics. Err, hang on.......)

My last offering though is that an individual doctor should never be compelled to administer treatment he or she does not consider in the patient's best interests. Doctors may not have the right to set moral standards for us all but they do have the right to say what they themselves find morally acceptable. If the doctors here found continued feeding morally unacceptable then they would do the right thing in refusing to carry on (and/or handing the pateient over to a doctor who felt differently, although philosphically i am not sure that is any different from continuing to feed yourself.)

[Goofball]

Well Im the first to admit I believed these stories. Shame on me and all those who got their information from the tabloid press...

Well said. And don't feel bad, you're certainly not the first person (and definitely not the last) who has believed a version of events because it fit with what they wanted to be true. I do it probably two or three times a week.


still doesnt change my opinion about what should have happened.

Okay, you had me with the first bit, but you just lost me there. The evidence of the autopsy proved that not only were the parents full of crap about the abuse claims, but that they were also spouting shite when they said that Terry recognized and communicated with them. Furthermore, given the state of her brain, there was no possible way Terry was ever going to recover. So given that the three main reasons the parents gave for trying to thwart Michael's attempts to honor Terry's wishes have all been proved false, why would you still say that the courts should have taken away a husband's right to decide for his wife, and set such a dangerous precedent?


It would be nice for the parents to apologize now that its all over - they basically had us ( the supporters ) repeating their lies. :shame:

Well said again; you got me back with that part.

:bow:

[DemonArchangel]

perhaps the statement about the size of her brain is true. however, that does not by default equate to meaning that everything the coroner has said is true

Well, the coroner is just backing what the doctors and nursing home folks said. And you can look at the X-Rays yourself if you want.

[Tribesman]

C'mon, Tribes. You've got to much to class to do that at the wedding.
~D ~D ~D thanks , but this is a woman who at formal functions asked Prince Edward if it was true he really was gay and asked Dennis Thatcher if he thought all his work in building successful business holdings was a waste of time as it was going to be left to his fool of a son .
But viewing the seating arrangements for the wedding reception the bride to be has really let her sense of humour run away with her . The orangemen are seated with the fenians , the devout christians are seated with the homosexuals , the tea-totallers are seated with the alcholics and the upper class are seated with the anarchists .
It should be a very entertaining event . ~:cheers:

[Proletariat]

The orangemen are seated with the fenians , the devout christians are seated with the homosexuals , the tea-totallers are seated with the alcholics and the upper class are seated with the anarchists .
It should be a very entertaining event . ~:cheers:

Wow. Well, if it's open bar at the reception, please bring a video camera.

[bmolsson]

the statement about the size of her brain is true. however, that does not....


Sigh... Reading the rules of the forum and decides to shut up....... ~D

[Tribesman]

Well this story just gets better and better :embarassed: .
A new inquiry has now been requested by Jeb Bush , since the alledged wife beating and strangulation failed to be established . This time they want to try and prove that the husband took too long to call an ambulance !!!!!
How the hell can they establish that ?
"Mr. Shiavio did you take too long to dial 911 ?" ...."er , no your honour" case closed , or are they going to invent some witnessess or bring in leading experts in telephones to testify ? ~:confused:

[JAG]

They won't stop until they fix some form of satisfactory result - Jeb and Florida are good at that. ~;)

[Red Harvest]

My theory is that the Bushes are very concerned about this because if being in a persistent vegetative state, having only half a brain left, being blind to the world around, and not responding to others is ruled as dead...then won't we have to pull the plug on Dubya? ~;) Dark humor there.

In reality, there is very little humorous about this whole affair. It has just been very sad. Can you imagine the pain the husband has gone through? I do not understand the parents. They are evil vindictive liars. Now Jeb is trying to apply more pressure on the poor husband, beyond what he has already done. I have to admire the husband, I would have lost it with the pressure of having those horrid in-laws to deal with, not to mention a president and governor completely abusing their powers. Jeb Bush should be ashamed. More than that, he should be removed from office for this blatant abuse of power. This use of the State to attack an innocent GRIEVING man repeatedly is beyond CRIMINAL. It is totally immoral. The evil that is done in the name of religion is astounding. Yet extremists go back into that circular cult logic. A world without religious extremists of any persuasion...wouldn't that be nice? ~:cheers:

In a CNN poll I saw while her body was still alive, something like 85% agreed that in the same circumstance their spouse was the best qualified to make such a decision. Parents were in the low single digits.

[Red Harvest]

They won't stop until they fix some form of satisfactory result - Jeb and Florida are good at that. ~;)

Jeb is only a prince at the moment, but he has the power to make kings. I thought we did away with the aristocracy back in the American revolution, but it now seems that a slim majority of the masses like a dim witted aristocrat. Say...could we borrow Charles for awhile? He is smarter than Dubya, seems quite harmless, and is easier to understand than Dubya. He actually completed his military service, didn't he?

[PanzerJaeger]

The smart will always create wealth for themselves and their offspring. Democracy only replaces a fixed aristocracy based on name only with a fixed aristocracy based on wealth(which in theory is based on hard work and talent).

On a different note - Bush bashing is growing increasingly lame. He can never run again, so do we really have to be subjected to the consistently not-funny "jokes". :dizzy2:

[Red Harvest]

The smart will always create wealth for themselves and their offspring. Democracy only replaces a fixed aristocracy based on name only with a fixed aristocracy based on wealth(which in theory is based on hard work and talent).

Smart? Or crooked? I'm having trouble telling the difference at the top anymore. The well bred are fleecing the shareholders, so much so that I have a hard time finding worthy companies to put my money into. Bush, smart? Time to lay off the hallucinogens. We always wondered what it would be like if Quayle had become president, now we know... ~D Actually, Dan was harmless by comparison.

Unfortunately, the line of reasoning you are using is one of the more bewildering facets of "fortunate son" arrogance (not calling *you* arrogant, but I hear this line of reasoning frequently from those who were born with the silver spoon in their mouth.) It is all too common in the adult children of the wealthy, a sense that their birth makes them somehow better, more important people than "those others." Their religious conservatism often seems to forget the New Testament concept of people being all of the same fundamental value. Dubya is the perfect example of our new aristocracy, not bright, not a gifted speaker, AWOL from duty during Vietnam, DWI's, drug use, wife beating. Everything he has was put in his lap.



On a different note - Bush bashing is growing increasingly lame. He can never run again, so do we really have to be subjected to the consistently not-funny "jokes". :dizzy2:

Until he's out of office, he's fair game. Even then, I won't give him a break. Afterall, the Clinton jokes were pretty stale, but I still hear the same ones...and he was 10 times better at his job than Dubya. Clinton could add, subtract, multiply, divide, balance a budget, speak intelligible english, and still found time to get in a little action on the side, ~:eek: etc. His sexual habits were not my primary concern, as long as he wasn't doing anything lewd during his state of the union address. How many millions did the lynch mob spend to prove he got a BJ? :dizzy2:

[Fragony]

It is a very depressing thing. I feel so sorry for the parents, they shouldn't have stopped feeding her because euthanesia should be impossible unless all parties agree, it is just not right. But they should accept that she was already gone, why take legal actions against reality, don't shoot the messenger. They must have loved her very much, it breaks my heart really.

[BDC]

The autopsy also showed that Terri was blind as a result of a deterioration of the "visual center" of her brain.

I think the family were being silly. Now I can understand why they were upset and why they wanted to 'save' their daughter, I don't blame them. But still claiming to be right when you clearly weren't is just a desperate attempt to save face, and is mean beyond reckoning to her husband. I'm sure he felt great throughtout all of this. :rolleyes:

[Goofball]

But still claiming to be right when you clearly weren't is just a desperate attempt to save face, and is mean beyond reckoning to her husband. I'm sure he felt great throughtout all of this. :rolleyes:

It gets even better. Apparently some people (read: Jebediah Bush) don't think Michael Schiavo has gone through enough yet. Man, when are they going to leave this poor guy alone?

Check this out:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8292690/site/newsweek/

[Proletariat]

If they autopsied Jeb right now I think they'd find half a brain. What an ass.

[Tribesman]

What an ass.
Send him to Georgia so that Neal Horsleys old friends who have not yet seen the light can have a little love . ~D ~D ~D

[Red Harvest]

If they autopsied Jeb right now I think they'd find half a brain. What an ass.

I'm for that! Let's have an early autopsy.

Jeb's move is what brought me into the Backroom again a few days ago. I just had to vent.

[Proletariat]

I'm for that! Let's have an early autopsy.

Jeb's move is what brought me into the Backroom again a few days ago. I just had to vent.

Welcome back, hope you stay awhile.