Should the Persians replace The Golden Horde?

[Ignoramus]

Well, if you read my last post in the "A major idea for the Mod" thread, I am suggesting we put in the Persian Principalities instead of the Golden Horde. I have worked out the culture groups as well. Vote on your opinions.

[Narayanese]

Read the "A major idea for the Mod." thread before voting.

[caesar44]

hard to tell
the mod is about the renaissance so it's going to be somewhere between 1350 to 1600 ce , if so , the golden horde is a dying empire and the persians are one of the 2 strongest empires in the near east , so the choice is clear . but , the problem is muscovy or moscobia (russian empire) - they are left all alone , from the edge of the map to polska ... hhhmmm............. it's going to be very easy for them to conquer the map
damn with the hardcoded limitations !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 :furious3: :duel: :furious3:

imho if we have from the british ils to greece 15 to 18 factions and from greece to central asia only 3 to 5 factions - the mod is unbalanced so please choose persia and the golden hord and cast aside one of the european factions like portugal , a kingdom that never played a roll in european chess (only in america and africa)
~:cheers:

[Saranalos]

No, I think we should keep the Golden Horde. I'm not even sure if the Persians existed when we start the mod.

[General of Tokugawa]

K i just did some research on the Persians. The Persians were under the rule of the Golden Horde from 1219-1500. Then a new Persian empire was born. So this date is very close to the beginning of the mod. If the governor of Otrar didn't kill the envoys they would have survived.

[Saranalos]

The mod starts in 1402, so it's 98 years later that the persian empire is born...

[Ignoramus]

Well, there were many small Persian Principalities scattered around the place. ANd Timur's empire ran on plundering, like the Huns. We should have a more settled faction in the exotic cities such as Baghdad. Then, the Middle East is split three way: Ottomans have most of Asia Minor, Mamleuks have Egypt and all of Palestine, Persian Principalities have Mesopotamia and Western Persia. As for Russia not having an enemy, they will. Poland merged with Lithuania around the start of our Mod. Poland will almost be as large a Russia.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

At the moment I think we should go with the GH because the Persians rose too far into our mod's time period and the GH/Mongols were still influential and actually did play the role of slowing the Ottoman Empire's expansion.

[Ignoramus]

Yes, but Baeyzid was defeated Timur in 1402, the start of our Mod. No need for the Mongols, lets confine them to the Medieval era. This is the Renaissance!

[GodsPetMonkey]

Replace a very large, albiet crumbling, empire with rebels, to make a modereratly large region be controlled by a faction that doesnt even exist at the time the mod starts.... doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, the idea of the mod is to rewrite history, not recreate it... we give a historical as possible (and fun as possible too) start, and let the player do the rest. Sadly the game limits us, especially in relation to factions, so there is only so much we can do.
At the start of the mod, the GH is on the verge of colapse, but that doesn't mean they have to. IMHO they will be one of the hardest factions in the game (with a very small unit roster, and almost entirely dependant on mercs later in the game) and will present a huge challenge, seeing as they are surrounded by aggressive nations, all wanting to expand. Trying to keep the empire together will be a tough task.

With respect to the Turks in the near east, well, it's not like they had that much trouble in Anatolia, but further south (palestine, arabia) they have to contend with the Mamlukes, not to mention the constant strain in Europe, which is packed enough as it is.

[Stormy]

Hmmm... this is a hard one. One of the Tatar Khanates sounds good.

[Ignoramus]

The poll is tied 7-7. I know people like the Mongols, but at this point they were rapidy crumbling.

[GodsPetMonkey]

The poll is tied 7-7. I know people like the Mongols, but at this point they were rapidy crumbling.

It doesn't matter, a change in the factions now means we have to redo the unit list again, unless the persian's well be using the same units as the mongols would have :dizzy2: , and I'm sure Yggdrasill wont aprreciate that seeing as how much effort he had to put in before.

[Janissary Karamurat]

ok, what about this:

In 1402, Timur Lenk defeated the Ottomans by Ancyra. This is also the starting time of the mod. If we keep in the GH with quite a large territory (from Ancyra until the eastern border of the map) and set up a trigger at 1405 (when Timur died and his empire did soon after) with turning some of that provinces into rebel factions with large(!) armies, maybe 1 or 2 full stacks per province and quite aggressive? :charge:

This would mean it will be hard for the GH and also for Ottomans or Mameluks to conquer these provinces but could mean a major task for them. It will be quite hard in the beginning so it will take a time to manage this.

What do u think about this?

[GodsPetMonkey]

Well the expansion reintroduces loyalty and rebellions/civil wars, so I think the best idea would be to set the GH generals all to have a very low loyalty, hopefully causing alot of trouble (think HRE in MTW if you didn't try to boost loyalty straight away).

[Steppe Merc]

Both. Take out some boring European faction. ~;)

[Uesugi Kenshin]

10 to 3 dedicated, 4 not so sure.

I would say keep the GH, at this point they were still a major player and will be more aggressive than rebels and people can try to pull the GH back from the brink in SP.

[Ignoramus]

But the GH will not threaten anyone at all.

[General of Tokugawa]

You could always make them be agressive so they wouldn't crumble.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

The GH will definately be able to threaten people, not necessarily from the very beginning but they will be a major obstacle to Turkey and Russia.

[Meneldil]

Well, I'm not fully aware of the latest news, but shouldn't the Timuride Empire replace the GH ? By 1400, the Timurids were still a major power, unlike the GH. A lot of powerful rebel could replace the GH, because it was crubbling anyway.
On the other hand, the Timurid almost destroyed the Ottomans, the GH, the kingdom of Delhi, the Djagatai Khanate and so on...

[rashidaddinsinan]

I totally agree. The Golden Horde were about to crumble into obsolescence, and a1n 1402 Timur ruled the largest land empire present in the entire world. If you want to start out accurately, you need the Timurids as a faction. The Golden Hord was just nowhere near it. (for gunpowder and later timurid units you could use the persians)

[Yggdrasill]

Correct and in 1405 when Timur died his empire shrank to the core around Transoxania which is completely off our world map while the GH is right in the centre of it. After that the Timurids had no influence on the history of the factions we have in the mod, while the successors of the GH fought wars against the Poles and Muscovy, and provided vassal armies for Ottomans fighting Hungary and Austria. So which do you think is more important for our mod?

[Ignoramus]

Overall, there was no major threat in Asia in 1402, so we have to work out what kingdom/nation could have become a threat. I personally would prefer Persia in some kind of form or another.

[rashidaddinsinan]

the purpose of the mod is to create as accurate as possible the world situation in 1400, and from that point let gamepley change the course of events, no? Well, if so, then the gh is vastly less important than timur in 1400.

[Yggdrasill]

For crying out loud, look at the bloody map! Only a small fraction of Timur’s empire is visible in the map of the mod! Half the provinces aren’t even there! Where would you put Samarqand, Herat and other great cities of Transoxania (east of the Caspian sea)? How do hell do you expect a ‘faithful’ representation of world situation when half of the provinces you supposedly control you can’t even see!
And if you remove the GH the entire eastern Europe is covered by only two factions Poland and Muscovy. I’m all for being true to history but that would be ridiculous!

The world situation we are aiming for is 1402, but to recreate it faithfully we lack at least 5 or 6 more faction. CA says we can’t have them and we have to live with that. Timur’s empire is one of those that got scratched off the list.

Persia faces the same problem – to put them in would require extending the world map far beyond what we have now, and also Persia should not be available from the start, and that is impossible in RTW engine.

[Yggdrasill]

Besides, Timur didn't really conquer all those teritorries he controled. Most of them he simply raided, destroyed their armies, looted, took slaves (artisans and skilled craftsmen) and shipped the whole lot with him to Samarqand. The core of his state was and remained after his death, Transoxania, so far removed from our map that it would make no sense to include it. The rest of his empire consisted of his neighbours who were scared shitless of his armies. If we went for Timur's empire, we open a Pandora's box of problems - what about his eastern neigbours where do we put them? What about the Jalayarids whom he fought, what about Armenia etc.?
No, Timur is on the fringes of our world. To include him would demand a serious reworking of a lot of things and we simply do not have the resources to do that.

[caesar44]

Just remember , yggd , in MTW there was a Mongol faction !!! and we did not see all of it , just the western part , so you don't have to put all of Timur's empire , just it western edge , same for other Asian faction . I agree with you that the map is too big as it is now , yet think of the idea ~:cheers:

[Narayanese]

The "western edge" is one city maximum with the current map. Timur's horde is just waaaay beyond europe.

I agree with Yggdrasill's posts, and would like to add that tamerlan didn't have any effect on the other factions we have, other than by weakening the glden horde and ottomans neighbour georgia in raids done before 1402.

[caesar44]

Sorry , but I am confused , Timur's empire western edge was in Central Asia Minor going eastward to the Persian golf and the Caspian sea , these areas are included in RTW map . please explain .

[Narayanese]

Sorry , but I am confused , Timur's empire western edge was in Central Asia Minor going eastward to the Persian golf and the Caspian sea , these areas are included in RTW map . please explain .
I had a second look at the map. He never took Georgia despite numerous invasions afaik, but the white sheep turkmen, ruling the eastern tip of anatolia, were vassals to timur to one degree or another I think, so it's true as you say the edge was rather far west, but not really as far as asia minor. The ilkhanate and black sheep turkmen, both opponents to him, were in 1402 successfully retaking modernday iraq from Timur.
I mixed up the black sea with the caspan sea on where the map ends, oops.

I painted the border on top of the map. Darker colour for white sheep. It's certainly a few provinces, but still more than a bit removed from the rest of the factions.
https://img400.imageshack.us/img400/6192/tamerlane3ax.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[Yggdrasill]

If you think the GH shouldn't be included because they were disintegrating at that point, that is easily solved, instead of them we have either the Khanate of Astrakan or the Crimean Chanate. Both were long lasting (Crimean Khanate was finally subdued by Russia in late 17th or early 18th century) and both caused considerable problems for Muscovy and Poland with constant raids.

[caesar44]

I had a second look at the map. He never took Georgia despite numerous invasions afaik, but the white sheep turkmen, ruling the eastern tip of anatolia, were vassals to timur to one degree or another I think, so it's true as you say the edge was rather far west, but not really as far as asia minor. The ilkhanate and black sheep turkmen, both opponents to him, were in 1402 successfully retaking modernday iraq from Timur.
I mixed up the black sea with the caspan sea on where the map ends, oops.

I painted the border on top of the map. Darker colour for white sheep. It's certainly a few provinces, but still more than a bit removed from the rest of the factions.
https://img400.imageshack.us/img400/6192/tamerlane3ax.jpg (https://imageshack.us)


Thanks for your answer , please take a look at the maphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mongol_dominions.jpg

[caesar44]

Let me fix that , yes https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/Mongol_dominions.jpg

[caesar44]

If you think the GH shouldn't be included because they were disintegrating at that point, that is easily solved, instead of them we have either the Khanate of Astrakan or the Crimean Chanate. Both were long lasting (Crimean Khanate was finally subdued by Russia in late 17th or early 18th century) and both caused considerable problems for Muscovy and Poland with constant raids.

It is a good solution :thumbsup:
~:cheers: