"Mississippi Burning" An Old Man's Reputation?

[PanzerJaeger]

Well this has been big news where I live but I hadnt seen much of it in the national news until now.


PHILADELPHIA, Miss. — The murder case against a former Klansman charged in the slayings of three civil rights workers went to the jury Monday after prosecutors made an impassioned plea for a conviction, saying the victims' families have waited a long 41 years for someone to be brought to justice.

"Because the guilt of Edgar Ray Killen is so clear, there is only one question left," prosecutor Mark Duncan said in closing arguments. "Is a Neshoba County jury going to tell the rest of the world that we are not going to let Edgar Ray Killen (search) get away with murder any more? Not one day more."

The 12 jurors — nine white and three black — deliberated the fate of 80-year-old Edgar Ray Killen for about two and a half hours Monday before going home without a verdict. At the end of the day, the judge polled jurors to determine how they were progressing, and the panel reported being deadlocked 6-6. The judge then told them to return Tuesday to resume deliberations.

In his closing argument, defense Attorney James McIntyre (search) said that while events that occurred in 1964 were horrible and he had sympathy for the families of the victims, "the burden of proof does not reflect any guilt whatsoever" on the part of Killen, who could get life in prison.


McIntyre acknowledged that Killen was once a Klan member, but added: "He's not charged with being a member of the Klan, he's charged with murder." He then pointed out that no witnesses could put Killen at the scene of the crime. Killen did not take the stand.

"If you vote your conscience you are voting not guilty," he said. "There is a reasonable doubt."

The prosecutor said that while there was no testimony putting the murder weapon in Killen's hands, the evidence showed he was a Klan organizer and had played a personal role in preparations the day of the murders.

"He was in the Klan and he was a leader," Attorney General Jim Hood (search) said.

The trial has reopened one of the most notorious chapters of the civil rights era.

The victims — James Chaney (search), Andrew Goodman (search) and Michael Schwerner (search) — were helping register black voters when they were ambushed by a gang of Klansmen. They were beaten and shot, and their bodies were found 44 days later buried in an earthen dam.

FBI records and witnesses indicated Killen organized carloads of men who followed Chaney, a black man from Mississippi, and Schwerner and Goodman, white men from New York.

Their disappearance focused the nation's attention on the Jim Crow code of segregation in the South and helped spur passage of the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Hood noted that the men disappeared on June 21, 1964. He said families of the three men "have waited 41 years — tomorrow it'll be 41 years — to see this case put before a jury on murder charges."

"Those three boys and their families were robbed of all the things that Edgar Ray Killen has been able to enjoy for these last 40 years," Duncan said.

Killen was tried in 1967 along with several others on federal charges of violating the victims' civil rights. The all-white jury deadlocked in Killen's case, but seven others were convicted. None served more than six years.

The defense rested earlier Monday after a former mayor testified that the Klan was a "peaceful organization."

Harlan Majure, who was mayor of this rural Mississippi town in the 1990s, said Killen was a good man and that the part-time preacher's Klan membership would not change his opinion.

Majure said the Klan "did a lot of good up here" and said he was not personally aware of the organization's bloody past.

"As far as I know it's a peaceful organization," Majure said. His comment was met with murmurs in the packed courtroom.

More on split jury:

It was unclear whether the 6-6 split dealt with guilt-innocence or murder-manslaughter. The deliberation was about an hour and 45 minutes.

"It's so difficult to speculate because we're not back there," said Andrew M. Sheldon of Atlanta, a jury consultant who assisted the prosecution.

Sheldon, who was a consultant in other civil rights cases, said the jury split could not be considered a deadlock until the judge ends the proceedings.

Defense attorney James McIntyre said Killen said pleased with the jury split. He said if the trial does end up with a deadlocked jury, "A hung jury would be a victory."'

Shelton said he felt "disappointed and sad" that the jury had hit a snag at this point in deliberations.

Judge at 5:30 — called the jury back in, asked the foreman, what was the situation at that point. We're split 6-6. If they took another vote tonite, she said 'no'

enough for tonite. come back tomorrow.

Its been very interesting to see how public opinion has changed throughout this case. At first most people were glad to see this happening - but later when the facts of the case came out some started to question why so much money and effort was being made so some very old man could be trotted out in front of us in kevlar and prison orange.

This case is steeped in southern politics, racial elements, and revenge. No matter what happens there will be anger and plenty of good sound bytes. ~;)

[InsaneApache]

This case is steeped in southern politics, racial elements, and revenge

And there was me thinking it was about justice.

[IrishMike]

Cases like this are never about justice. Just filled with bitterness and hate.

[Beirut]

It's never too late to go after people like him

*********************************

Love the new sig PJ! No problem, you can keep all your conservatives right where they are. God knows no one else on Earth wants them around.

[UglyandHasty]

PJ you'll be glad to know that French(France) news have taken the story many weeks ago.

[Kanamori]

Justice should've been served long ago, but unfortunately, none of them were actually served justice, as they knew none of them would be convicted under a southern jury.

[TonyJ]

It's very easy to pity an old man, who looks a bit pathetic in his orange suit and handcuffs.

This item has been carried by the UK press and they posed the same questions: is it worth it now, is it truly justice.

At the end of the day the man is possibly guilty of an appaling hate crime: he has blood on his hands. There have been trials of people as old as this and older relating to crimes in the Second World War. Is there a difference?

Or are we tacitly admitting that as long as you can get away with it for long enough, you're no longer guilty?

[doc_bean]

In one thread you're saying we should be hard on crime and that sentencing should be seen as punishment. Yet here you advocate letting it slide ?

[PanzerJaeger]

Im not advocating anything - I was just posting the article as it is a very "hot" article in my community since we arent very far away from that town.

Personally I will wait until the verdict. Apparently they have a very weak case. If they spent all this time and money on such an old case to throw an old man in prison - only to find that they didnt really have a decent case at all - it will be a waste, imo.

_________________


Love the new sig PJ! No problem, you can keep all your conservatives right where they are. God knows no one else on Earth wants them around.

Hehe glad you like it. Unfortunately i think it will be changing daily so dont get used to it. Oh and nobody has ever really wanted americans around - thats why they are in America and not their home country. ~;)

[Kanamori]

Former Klansman found guilty of manslaughter
Conviction coincides with 41st anniversary of civil rights killings

PHILADELPHIA, Mississippi (CNN) -- Forty-one years to the day three civil rights workers were ambushed and killed by a Ku Klux Klan mob, a jury found former Klansman Edgar Ray Killen guilty of all three counts of manslaughter Tuesday.

The "Freedom Summer" killings of James Chaney, 21, Andrew Goodman, 20, and Michael Schwerner, 24, galvanized the civil rights movement.

The jury of nine whites and three blacks reached the decision after several hours of deliberations.

Killen showed no emotion as the verdicts were read.

But as he was being escorted from the courthouse under heavy guard, the wheelchair-bound man took swipes at reporters' microphones and cameras. One of the reporters was black, as was a cameraman.

Killen will be sentenced by Circuit Court Judge Marcus Gordon at 2 p.m. ET, a court official said. He faces a maximum sentence of 20 years per count, and a minimum of one year per count, Mississippi Attorney General James Hood said.

From her Manhattan home Goodman's mother, Carolyn Goodman, 89, told CNN she had waited a long time for a guilty verdict, but it was "nothing to be happy about."

"I'm just overcome. ... But you know I had a feeling it was going to happen," she said.

"I just hope he's off the streets," she said of Killen. "I don't want anything more terrible than that. I don't want anything violent. I'm against capital punishment."

In his closing argument Monday, Neshoba County District Attorney Mark Duncan implored the 12 jurors to "hold the defendant responsible for what he did."

"What you do today when you go into that jury room is going to echo throughout the history of Neshoba County from now on," Duncan said. "You can either change the history that Edgar Ray Killen and the Klan wrote for us, or you can confirm it."

"Find him guilty of murder," Duncan said. "That's the verdict that the state of Mississippi asks you to return."

He told the jury to think of Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner -- three young men who had volunteered to help register blacks to vote in the summer of 1964, an act "so despised it cost them their lives."

Chaney was a black man from Mississippi.

Goodman and Schwerner were white New Yorkers who came to the South with hundreds of other civil rights activists.

"Those three boys and their families were robbed of all the things that Edgar Ray Killen has been able to enjoy for the last 41 years. And the cause of it, the main instigator of it was Edgar Ray Killen and no one else," the district attorney said.

"He was the man who led these murders. He is the man who set the plan in motion. He is the man who recruited the people to carry out the plan. He is the man who directed those men into what to do."

Now 80, the balding, bespectacled Killen -- a former preacher -- appeared to be sleeping during much of the closing remarks.

Hood, who led the case, said he wished "some of my predecessors would have done their duty" by bringing charges against Killen. Noting that it was "not good politics to bring this case up," he said, politics and time should not get in the way of justice.

Hood said testimony showed Killen possessed "venom" at the time of the killings and still does.

"That venom is sitting right there. It is seething behind those glasses," he said. "That coward wants to hide behind this thing and put pressure on you."
Burden of proof

Seeking to undermine the prosecution's case, defense attorney Mitch Moran said "nothing in the record shows Edgar was there" during the ambush and killings.

"The '60s was a terrible era in a lot of ways. We do not need to relive them, and we do need to go forward," Moran said. "What I'm asking you to do is to look at this evidence and hold the state to the burden of proving this case beyond a reasonable doubt."

Another defense attorney, James McIntyre, said, "The burden of proof on this case does not reflect any guilt whatsoever."

"Mr. Edgar Ray Killen had nothing to do with it," he said.

On June 21, 1964, Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner were on their way to investigate the burning of a black church when they were briefly taken into custody for speeding.

According to testimony, the Klan had burned the church to lure the three men back to Neshoba County.

After they were released from the county jail in Philadelphia, Mississippi, a KKK mob tailed their car, forced if off the road, and shot them to death. Their bodies were buried in an earthen dam -- in a trench dug in anticipation of the killings, according to testimony.

In a 1967 federal trial an all-white jury deadlocked 11-1 in favor of convicting Killen. The lone holdout said she could not vote to convict a preacher.

Seven other men were convicted of conspiring to violate the civil rights of the victims. None served more than six years in prison.

[Tribesman]

none of them were actually served justice, as they knew none of them would be convicted under a southern jury.
I was going to pull you on that one Kanamori , but your second post has done that already . Don't you just love the detailThe lone holdout said she could not vote to convict a preacher. :embarassed:

Though of course it could be argued whether or not the sentances of the others originally convicted amounted to "serving justice" .

[InsaneApache]

The lone holdout said she could not vote to convict a preacher.

And this my friends is what is wrong with many parts of the rural US. A lack of clarity in thinking. :bow:

[econ21]

Why was this manslaughter rather than murder? The nature of the crime - the KKK tailing men released from a police station and burying them in pre-dug graves - makes it hard to see how it could not be murder.

[Don Corleone]

Just out of curiousity, IA, how much time have you spent in the Rural USA? Even though I'm a Christian living in the rural South, I find the statement as troubling as you do. But do you really think the problem is limited to here?

If that's the case, why are so many of the Roman Catholic faithful, across the globe, and yes, even in enlightened Europe, saying victims should just shut up and leave the priests alone, even if they were molested? Roman Catholicism is NOT a particularly popular denomination in rural America (Catholics tend to live in cities & in suburbs).

The problem is not one of the rural south, it's one of human beings allowing somebody else to do their critical thinking for them.

[Don Corleone]

Why was this manslaughter rather than murder? The nature of the crime - the KKK tailing men released from a police station and burying them in pre-dug graves - makes it hard to see how it could not be murder.

My strong suspicion is burden of proof. You can go for manslaughter and murder1 at the same time, for the same crime in many jurisdictions over here: (Okay, we think he planned it out ahead of time, but if you think he shot the guy in blind rage, go ahead and give him that).

What I don't understand is why they didn't go after him on supporting charges: conspiracy to commit murder, kidnapping, interfering with an ongoing investegation, etc. I guess because at his age, any sentance the jury returns will be a death sentance. He won't live to see daylight again. Good.

[PanzerJaeger]

And this my friends is what is wrong with many parts of the rural US. A lack of clarity in thinking.

And that my friends is what is wrong with British people. Complete arrogance compounded with a serious lack of knowledge on the subject matter. :bow:

[Red Harvest]

Glad justice has been served.

Funny about the juror who couldn't convict a preacher. I agree with InsaneApache, clarity of thinking could be better in the rural south. Wasn't very long ago that a clansman was running for governor of Louisiana and had a real chance of winning.

Darn, I though Catholics lived just about anywhere? Sure are a lot of 'em 'round where I've lived. Baptists don't seem to realize that many of their fellow religious conservatives are Catholic. Pretty funny actually. I've been known to mention that when the Southern Baptists get started on school prayer. I've also mentioned that I'm not sure how happy they will be when some student or teachers organized prayers are offered to Allah or Buddha either. And some wiseacre is going to start a Druid chant...you just know it.

[InsaneApache]

Just out of curiousity, IA, how much time have you spent in the Rural USA?

None.

However my step-Mother is from the 'deep' south, and I have many first hand accounts of the enlightened attitude to 'niggers' there.

I'll mail her and ask her to send some memoirs if that would please.

Just one of the joys of the internet. To root out and dispel ignorance wherever it is found.

[InsaneApache]

And that my friends is what is wrong with British people. Complete arrogance compounded with a serious lack of knowledge on the subject matter.

I rest my case :bow:

[Goofball]

And that my friends is what is wrong with British people. Complete arrogance compounded with a serious lack of knowledge on the subject matter. :bow:

Actually, most British folks I know are at least of average intelligence and have fairly good knowledge bases.

Having said that, so are most rural Americans I know.

And Panzer, for the record:

It's bad form to bow as if you have just said something profound or gracious when what you have actually done is make a sweeping (not to mention terribly wrong) generalization about an entire nation of people.

[Don Corleone]

None.

However my step-Mother is from the 'deep' south, and I have many first hand accounts of the enlightened attitude to 'niggers' there.

I'll mail her and ask her to send some memoirs if that would please.

Just one of the joys of the internet. To root out and dispel ignorance wherever it is found.

Two things:
1) I don't know if that word means something in the UK other than what it means here, but it's incredibly offensive. Not because it's a racial slur, because it's not, or at least it didnt' start that way. It refers to a piece of property, and that's why black people hate white people using it so badly. There's no equivalent.

2) If you really believe that the rural South is the only place in the Western world where that kind of benighted ignorance exists, and you're not just trying to bait, I pity you.

[Tribesman]

what you have actually done is make a sweeping (not to mention terribly wrong) generalization about an entire nation of people.
And it wasn't even about Arabs or Muslims this time ~D ~D ~D

[PanzerJaeger]

Come on Goofball, youve done the exact same thing - Replicating someones statement to illistrate how idiotic it is. Any British person with any sense can see that. Maybe a wink would have been better than a bow though.

[InsaneApache]

I don't know if that word means something in the UK other than what it means here, but it's incredibly offensive. Not because it's a racial slur, because it's not, or at least it didnt' start that way. It refers to a piece of property, and that's why black people hate white people using it so badly.

Oh dear God...it is offensive precisely because of the negative emotions the word evokes. (It's origin is from the Latin Negro, meaning black. ie Montenegro)

If it also means a piece of chattle...then that makes it even more offensive imho.

Look I aint going to tell you guys how to run your country,( I'm sure you would love me if I did). There is a problem that needs addressing, but hey, it's your gig. I'm just an observer and we got enough problems in blighty

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I'm from the U.K., currently in the U.S. and I have to say that the British public in general is incredibly ill-informed about the U.S.

They certainly do hold some strong opinions about the place though.

[Goofball]

Come on Goofball, youve done the exact same thing - Replicating someones statement to illistrate how idiotic it is. Any British person with any sense can see that. Maybe a wink would have been better than a bow though.

Yes, I have modified peoples' own statements to show them the sillyness in what they just said, but that is not really what you did.

While IA's statement was certainly bordering on the edge of good manners and reasonableness, there was one important word he used in it to keep it from being a massive, sweeping insult: "many." By using that word, he at least kept his statement from attributing the traits of a few to the traits of all rural Americans.

Your statement, however, implied that all British people are arrogant and ignorant.

Very big difference.

So no, I have not done "the exact same thing."

[IrishMike]

Oh dear God...it is offensive precisely because of the negative emotions the word evokes. (It's origin is from the Latin Negro, meaning black. ie Montenegro)


I garuntee you that as a white man, you come down to the south and say that to a black man, you won't live more than 3 seconds. My money is on 2 seconds, but hey i'll give you another second if you can take many bullets.

And whats this about the south not being educated? :furious3:

[InsaneApache]

garuntee you that as a white man, you come down to the south and say that to a black man, you won't live more than 3 seconds

Thankyou for making my point.


And whats this about the south not being educated?

well as a northerner ...oops sry wrong country :embarassed:

Lets just say this.......

The USA isnt as free as it likes to think it is.

*time for a beer*

[Red Harvest]

Let's get real here. I've been in the south for quite awhile, and I've heard the term used plenty, primarily by the older generations. It was a bit less of a fighting term a few years back but it still wasn't used in any polite fashion.

The context IA used it is was quite appropriate as I have no doubt he was quoting her. Yes, they really do say it like that. (Folks down here don't like to admit that they or at least their parents/grandparents use the expression alot behind their backs...shhhhhh...secret's out.) I could tell you some amusing stories with the word that would explain both the changes in mindset and how the older generation still regarded blacks not all that long ago. The good news is that it is changing.

The unfortunate thing is that now it is not uncommon for negroes to refer to each other with the term. And it seems to be "OK" for them to do so, while it is a major offense for anyone else to, no matter whether it is in jest, etc. An odd double standard. Reminds me of a black activist actually stating "black people couldn't be rascist because they are black." :jawdrop:

What you might also hear used as a substitute is "boy," which I find even more insulting.

[PanzerJaeger]

The USA isnt as free as it likes to think it is.

What in the hell are you talking about? You cant just make a statement like that after making such accusations about the South and then go get a beer.

The South of 2005 is a very different place than apparently the british school system would have you think. Or maybe its just you who holds strange views about the South.

I live here and Ive got that strange in-ter-net thingy, as do most people. I dont drive a pick up - most people dont. My community has a black mayor - most southern communities do these days. "Nigger" is a word of affection used by many black people and some whites. Theres no more segregation than in any other community here and theres certainly no freedom denied anyone.

If youre getting all your information from your grandmother, then maybe you should do a bit more research before speaking out with supposed authority on the subject, especially since youve never been here.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

it's the British mass media more than the school system (although that contributes too).

[InsaneApache]

What in the hell are you talking about? You cant just make a statement like that after making such accusations about the South and then go get a beer.

Oh yes I can...I'm a freeman..... ~:cheers: *burp* ~:cheers: I can say what I like...I'm a freeborn Englishman ~D

hang on.....the wife says I gotta wash up.....*whats the way to Jomsberg?*

well I was free...until the wife turned up ~;)

[IrishMike]

While were at it for all people from England, me and panzer will gladly dispell anymore ridiculous notions and stereotypes of the south for free. Keep em coming. Me and Panzer would like to welcome you to "Guide to the South 101".

[InsaneApache]

:book:







If youre getting all your information from your grandmother, then maybe you should do a bit more research before speaking out with supposed authority on the subject, especially since youve never been here.

At least do me the courtesy of reading my posts.....

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

it's not just England that has the problem. It's rest of the U.K. too.
I heard some utter crap about the U.S. from some people in Scotland when I was there over Christmas.

[Redleg]

I find it funny someone from England talking about the "rural south" and the
And this my friends is what is wrong with many parts of the rural US. A lack of clarity in thinking. Its really rather amusing considering some of the reports coming out of England about certain types of behaviors.


However thanks you Goofball for acknowledging that some from the rural areas of the United States demonstrate in your words.

Having said that, so are most rural Americans I know.

Now the difference is InsaneApache is that the clarity in thinking that is in the rural south is more based upon what they experience on a daily basis which is completely different then say the experiences living in a large city like London.

Mixing apples and oranges with your arguement about clarity of thinking.

Edit: By the way: there is absolutely nothing wrong with holding this trail and his conviction. If he did the crime - he should be tried and be held responsible for it. Regardless of when the actual crime and investigation happened.

[Kanamori]

Unfortuneately, I have a sneaking suspiscion that it is now the North that has to be shamed into changing its race-relations/segregation more than does the south. In my experiences, I haven't seen many ghettos in the south, while...the north and west are a different story; please, correct me if I am wrong, my visits in the South have maybe been less comprehensive than they should be to accurately comment on the situation that is there now.

[IrishMike]

I believe that you see a lack of ghettos down here in the south is due to the cost of living, especially owning a home is lower down here. Their are many more bigger cities in the North, and the cost of living, and owning a half decent home or appartment is high than in the south. Down here in the south we tend to marvel at what New Yorkers would pay for an appartment, where down here you could get that same appatment size for much much less.

When I went to Washington DC I was amazed at what people paid for these tiny little homes. It was higher than my home, but 3-4 times smaller. Incredible.

Edit: Also see the Don's post, he hit the nail right on the head.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I'm currently in the north.

I just asked my girlfriend (went to high school in the south) and a friend (originally from Georgia) if there were ghettoes in the south like there are up here. They just laughed at me.

[Don Corleone]

We're still a long, long way from MLK's dream of a color blind society, but having grown up in the Northeast and now living in the South, I'd say racism is more abundant, but hidden, in the North. When people in the South are bigots, they're very open about it, and most intelligent people, black, white, brown or yellow give them a wide berth. Up North, it's always whispered, so nobody ever calls anyone on it. And the South doesn't have ghetto's per se, but it does have 'non-integrated neighborhoods'. These are almost always black. Black people can and do move into white neighborhoods, it's white people that aren't welcome in black ones.

[PanzerJaeger]

Its sort of funny that when I immigrated to New York as a kid I was asked a lot if I was a Nazi by my fellow school children since I was from Germany. When I moved down here I was never asked that. Of course a lot of that has to do with age.

In any event, i read a while ago that a black family has a much better chance of success and social advancement in the South than anywhere else in the country.

[Ser Clegane]

Short intermission

One comment from my side on the statement that seems to have become the main subject of discussion for more than half of the thread



And this my friends is what is wrong with many parts of the rural US. A lack of clarity in thinking


Statements like that should better be backed up with some facts or examples - otherwise they will indeed be primarily taken as an attempt to just slur a group of people.
IMO just including the word "many" instead of "all" does not change the fact that a very broad brush is used here ("many" still implies to some extent that something is rather the rule than the exception).
Making such broad, unbacked statements only provokes similar statements from the "other side" which usually leads to a derailing of the thread (which can to some extent be observed here).

end of intermission

Please continue the discussion on topic (as in the previous couple of posts) :bow:

[doc_bean]

Okay, I have a story about the Soth that i'd like you all the comment about. The South is indeed still seen as a pretty racist place in Europe (and the rest of the world ?)

A guy from Togo, doing his Phd here in Europe told about a friend of his, also an African, who was living in New orleans now. He got into a relationship with a white girl, her family didn't approve, and she was persuaded to end the relationship. They still continue to see eachother in secret though.
Apparently the family doesn't approve of mixed race relationships. If there's one of tv or in a movie they'll say something along the lines of 'but that's just fiction, not the real world...'

Is this kind of attitude still common in the South or is it just one of those bad examples you can find everywhere ?

AFAIK the family never physically (or otherwise) threatened either him or her, they just didn't approve. Most people will know how families can be when they don't approve...

Oh and Panzer, shouldn't your sig say 'abortion DOCTORS kill people' ?

[PanzerJaeger]

That attitude is prevelant, although not discussed very much in most parts of the US and the rest of the world. There was recently an Ashton Kutcher movie about that type of thing - pretty funny i thought. I dont think it is any more acceptable here in the South.

In any event, New Orleans is one of the most liberal areas of the south. Voodoo is perfectly acceptable!

I think the Sig works either way - it gets the point across. ~;)

[IrishMike]

Like panzer said its kinda quietly frowned upon in most cases. But everyone deals with it and gets on, but nobody really gets freakishly mad and wants to kill the black guy anymore like they did in the past. Althogether its not really that common in most of the small towns and cities in my experience. Might be in the larger cities, not sure. But overall you still don't see alot of it.

[Goofball]

Racism is everywhere. Check this out:


DON'T expect Oprah Winfrey (above) to accessorize with Hermes bags any time soon. Spies in Paris report that, in a stunning display of ignorance, the Hermes store in the City of Light refused entry to the talk show queen. "Oprah didn't have her hair done," says a source. "When she tried the door, they refused her entry because they have been 'having a problem with North Africans lately' and obviously had no clue who she was." A rep for Winfrey says: "Oprah is in Paris," but declined further comment. Hermes didn't return calls.

Man, I guarantee you someone at Hermès was issued their walking papers after this incident. Did they ever just piss off the wrong woman...

http://www.worldofwonder.net/

[Tribesman]

I think the Sig works either way - it gets the point across.
It works either way Panzer , how about , people outside abortion clinics with guns who viewed the "Nuremburg Files" kill people .
Though of course that in no way implies that all or even many of the people from the Southern States share the views of the author of those Files or the ChristianGallery , despite the Southern Party describing him as ""A credit to Georgia , a great example of a true Southern gentleman" . As these people are a bunch of fruitcakes . I mean who would seriously even think that launching a nuclear attack against the Government would encourage the south to try and seceed again .

[PanzerJaeger]

Im trying to decipher that... :dizzy2:

If it is your belief that the majority, or even a large number of people in the South believe in bombing abortion clinics, I must say youve been sharing Kool-Ade with InsaneApache. In other words - you'd have to be a fruitcake yourself to believe that.

Abortion "doctors" should be put on trial for murder and given the sentence that the law dictates for the number of murders they committed in their "career". We didnt punish Ted Bundy by bombing him, why would we want to treat other serial killers that way?

[Goofball]

Abortion "doctors" should be put on trial for murder and given the sentence that the law dictates for the number of murders they committed in their "career".

That would be an easy trial, given that abortion is not murder. The sentence that the law dictates in your example would be to send them on their merry ways with a pat on the back for helping women maintain control over their reproductive functions.

~:wave:

[Xiahou]

That would be an easy trial, given that abortion is not murder. The sentence that the law dictates in your example would be to send them on their merry ways with a pat on the back for helping women maintain control over their reproductive functions.

~:wave:
Congrats on dragging the thread even further off topic. ~:wave:

[KukriKhan]

And this has to do with the Mississippi trial...how?

[Tribesman]

If it is your belief that the majority, or even a large number of people Yes panzer that is clearly what I believe as that is what I stated :dizzy2:
Though of course that in no way implies that all or even many of the people from the Southern States share the views of the author :book:

Abortion "doctors" should be put on trial for murder
As Goofball stated , no contest , as its not against the law . If you want to peacefully campaign to change the law then do so . You have my support to a certain extent .
But having campaigns to change the law led by people who thought it was normal to have sex with animals is not a great way to garner public support is it . ~;)

[Goofball]

And this has to do with the Mississippi trial...how?

Sorry, I thought the connection was clear. We are talking about justice being applied long after an actual crime has taken place. I was pointing out that the Mississippi trial differs from what Panzer is talking about because murder was illegal in the 1960's and still is, whereas abortion is not currently illegal, so you can not put the doctors on trial for it at a later date.


Congrats on dragging the thread even further off topic. ~:wave:

Please see above; I did nothing of the sort. Your post, on the other hand, had nothing to do with the topic at hand and everything to do with trying to belittle me.

Thanks for your contribution.

[Don Corleone]

Congrats on dragging the thread even further off topic. ~:wave:

Well, to be fair, Goofy was the 3rd person to post along that sub-thread: Tribesman started it & PJ responded.

Back on topic: Say what you want about how stupid and ignorant or looney Americans are. If you really want me to judge all of British society by the words of any crackpot I can find in your country, fair enough. Let's just dial up the BNP and see what Brits REALLY think...

[PanzerJaeger]

That would be an easy trial, given that abortion is not murder. The sentence that the law dictates in your example would be to send them on their merry ways with a pat on the back for helping women maintain control over their reproductive functions.

Laws change Goofball, as does public opinion. The scare tactics used against women to get them to back murder are deteriorating, look at any recent poll. Abortion on demand will end in our lifetime, that I can be sure of.


Yes panzer that is clearly what I believe as that is what I stated

I suggest you visit the South, as I can assure you your view is very misguided. The vast majority of people down here dont believe in bombing abortion clinics. ~:eek:

More off-topic-ness! Sorry. :embarassed:

[Goofball]

Laws change Goofball, as does public opinion. The scare tactics used against women to get them to back murder are deteriorating, look at any recent poll. Abortion on demand will end in our lifetime, that I can be sure of.

Even if your prediction comes true and abortion is somehow made illegal in the future, you cannot retroactively prosecute people after the fact for performing acts that were not illegal when they performed them.

[KukriKhan]

Back to topic I feel the Force moving this conversation. :)

Thanks Goofball (and all).

[Tribesman]

Sorry last off topic post(for now ~;)

as I can assure you your view is very misguided.
Do you understand the english language at all ????

that in no way implies :book:



Tribesman started it
Yeah the Irish always start it ~D ~D ~D or was it a response to the Germans , as they have a history of starting things ~;)
some facts or examples - otherwise they will indeed be primarily taken as an attempt to just slur a group of people.
So it was just an example based on facts that there are fools in the South just as (you pointed out Don) there are fools everywhere .

[PanzerJaeger]

Do you understand the english language at all ????

Its not my first language so maybe Im missing something here. Do you or dont you think most in the South are in favor of bombing abortion clinics?

[Tribesman]

OK Panzer I will try once more by repeating my words .
"That IN NO WAY IMPLIES that all or even many of the people from the Southern states share the views of the author"
The author BTW was Neal Horsley , who was feared by farmyard animals throughout the State when he was a young man . ~;)

[InsaneApache]

Statements like that should better be backed up with some facts or examples - otherwise they will indeed be primarily taken as an attempt to just slur a group of people.

I cant give examples here as they are all anecdotal from conversations with my step-Mum....suffice to say that when Dad married her she disuaded him from settling in the States (shes from Jacksonville) as he originally planned. She felt it wasnt safe for HIM because he was married to an African-American.

As she puts it there are 2 Americas one white, one black and they rarley cross over, if ever.

I will mail her though and see if she can point me in the right direction, if so desired.

BTW they went to live on Corfu instead.....shes the only negro on the island...it tickles her pink!!!! (if you see what I mean ~;) )