Korean Grenadiers

[Tachikaze]

This sounds like an interesting unit, truly distinct from any other in the game so far.

It will be interesting to see in which situations they will be the most benefit (maps, etc.). I wonder if they will work in the rain.

The mongols seem like a mixture of the exotic and standard in troop types.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[Dwimmerlaik]

Those grenadiers sound devastating to me...can you imagine the moral effect of 60 (or more) grenades exploding among ranks of ashigaru?

I'm thinking or starting a rice paper diaper factory in Yamashiro coz business will be good I can tell you!

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To be happy it is necessary not to be too intelligent
- Flaubert-

http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/ff4summon/indra.gif

[Hosakawa Tito]

Sounds like a terror weapon similar to the use of muskets.A real morale breaker.
Tito

[Tenchimuyo]

What's next? Korean artillery with smooth-bore cannons?

[solypsist]

Hmmm...the grenadiers sounds nice, but I would think they would have an extremely limited ammo supply (in keeping with the 'realism' of other troops types) and a range that's so short they could only get off 1 or 2 shots before attacking troops caught up with them.
I'll be a bit disappointed if their range is equal to that of archers.

(BTW, I think this makes post # 800 for me)

[Tachikaze]

Will there be 60 (or 120) men in each grenadier unit? It sounds crowded. Maybe it will be a reduced unit, like the ninjas (Doh! I said the "N" word!)

Solypsist,
It would be accurate if the Korean grenadiers had the range of archers. Historically, they hired National League pitchers as mercenaries.

I want ninja grenadier cavalry!

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[Nelson]

I have experienced an EPIPHANY!

Shogun is a semi-fantasy quasi-history game (no insult intended) with soldiers that have morale and who grow fatigued and who fight in formations on battlefields where terrain and weather make a difference. I like all that. Strategic turns and realtime battles. Perfect. Nothing else comes close.

The Japanese/Mongol/Korea connection is superfluous. It is a backdrop, a patina, a veneer. It is also unimportant. It could be Middle Earth as far as I'm concerned. I have pitched my last bitch about what makes sense historically. This is the wrong place and the wrong game for such complaints. I see the light (it was a grenade flash). I appreciate the indulgence you all have shown me for the past month as I stupidly tried to convince people that ninja and sword saints are bogus. I was the one who was bogus. I expected orange juice from apples! From now on I'll enjoy apple cider.

I don't care what units are available when. Fire arrows would be cool. So would forest fires. Monks rule. Artillery belongs too. I mean it. That old "accuracy" crap of mine is for the birds. I'll save it for real wargames. In the meantime I'll ambush daimyos with assassins in the midst of their armies in broad daylight, assault bridges with individual supermen, and lob grenades along with everyone else.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Hard to imagine 60 to 120 men with zippo lighters in one hand and gunpowder bombs in the other coordinating their attack without
a few "friendly fire" accidents.This should be real interesting.Hey Moe!Hey Larry!Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Tito

[The Black Ship]

Well he did say they would be extremely vulnerable...maybe "friendly fire" incidents can occur (say by premature detonation due to ranged units?)

My interpretation of a Korean Grenadier fratricide http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/net4/grenade.gif

[Naughty_Plumber]

man. I probably would have thought some kind of higher honer mongol spearmen. Because looking at the units right now most of the mongol units seem very low on honor. Or is this historically correct that the mongols used low honor mercs to invade Japan mostly.

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HnT

[Zen Blade]

guys,

I think the grenadier, will be nothing more than a potent musketeer unit. Same stuff, no real grenades.
How could you do grenade type or explosion type damage in STW?

anyways, it seems to me that most of these units have relatives in the current game, but are just stylized to that particular country/culture.

But, at the same time I think the additions have been pretty good overall. and yes, I do like the swordmaster unit.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG

[The Daimyo]

Nelson, I am glad you came to that realization. Though there's a lot of stuff in this game that is historically accurate, this game's play-factor thrives on the suspension of disbelief in many cases. They aren't trying to make fiction, or science fiction here, they are making a game that should appeal to most anyone with some amount of patience and class.
I hope you enjoy it more now.
As for the grenadiers, I'm expecting them to be a little less effective than the Dwarves are in Myth 1+2. Expect them to be a little slow, have a slower reload, full potential for blowing up friend or foe, and expect them to ruin your day if you don't take them into consideration in multiplayer matches.
I'm pretty sure they won't all be hucking 60-120 grenades at a time, that would be silly. There'd be craters from the grouped explosions all over the place!
I'm pretty high on these new units and all of the new features that wew'll be seeing within the next 2-3 months. It will breath a lot of life into the game, and most likely keep me playing it nightly into this coming fall.
With any luck, they'll get to work on another Total War game ASAP... I'm so whipped.

Watakushi wa The Daimyo desu!
Mina-sama, suwatte kudasai.
Sugu, onegai shimau.
Wakarimasu wa? Ii.
Nihon e yokoso!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif


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The Daimyo
Miaowara "Kakizaki" Tomokato
@ http://www.planettotalwar.com

[This message has been edited by The Daimyo (edited 01-26-2001).]

[solypsist]

essentially what this opens the door for is a whole new generation of people bitching about campers in multiplayer (remember all those pleasant threads?)

only this time it'll be high atop a hill dropping bombs off cliff-faces (and ninja hiding somewhere until the timer runs out). To take this to the extreme, imagine an all musket and bombadier army -there has been no mention of Mongol/Japanese army/unit restrictions in multiplayer, in official releases.

still, I do look forward to the Wardlord release.
BTW, I do think was Nelson was being sarcastic-but a great way to antogonize it is to pretend there isn't any sardonic tone..that really pisses people off! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 01-26-2001).]

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Nelson-san, I'm slowly beginning to give up on you. You've taken on such an attitude to WE/MI that I'm almost certain you will be disappointed, no matter how good the expansion is. Your choice, of course, but I would rather wait for the release than put on glasses with the text "Warlord Edition Will Suck" on the inside. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

Meanwhile, here's a quote from one of my old posts in the "some small things" thread:

Quote One little-known feature of the Mongol Invasion is that they were actually the first ones to use explosives on a large scale in Japan. To quote the Taihei ki, a 14th century military history (text ripped off Stephen Turnbull's The Samurai - A Military History):

"When the fighting began, mighty iron balls known as teppô were [flung?]. They rolled down the hills like cartwheels, sounded like thunder and looked like bolts of lightning. Two or three thousand of them were [thrown?] at a time, and many soldiers were burned to death."

It is unknown whether this really was Chinese gunpowder or some kind of a Greek fire application, but I wouldn't mind seeing it in STW, whatever it is. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]

Assuming we accept that this is a real historical account and not just some story, CA is actually being modest with the grenadiers, especially if the unit size is reduced.

People, please. I'm starting to get bored with this. Put on a cap with ice cubes in it before reading the .com articles. Or whatever works.

***

The grenadiers, then. Based on that "mighty iron balls" reference, I think the "grenadiers" will not have much ammo. Given a hollow iron ball filled with gunpowder, about a foot in diameter, nobody should be able to carry more than one or two. So the grenadiers will be a "first strike" unit like the skirmishers: first a softening-up, then the cavalry does its job.

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"Never, youths, however wretched, / Nor in future, upgrown heroes, / Whether you have large possessions, / Or are poor in your possessions, / In the course of your lifetime, / While the golden moon is shining, / May you woo a golden woman, / Or distress yourselves for silver, /For the gleam of gold is freezing, / Only frost is breathed by silver."
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVIII, verses 241-250

[Tachikaze]

I like the idea of the grenadiers over the ninjas and sword guy.

Grenades had a significant role in European warfare in the same era (Shogun takes place a little before the time of the Three Musketeers).

So, it is a valid battlefield unit, even if the Japanese never actually encountered them. The whole Mongol invasion thing is hypothetical anyway.

I'm curious to hear the grenades in my headphones. If they sound as good as the teppo and the thunder . . .

I was wondering what Nelson would think. We agreed on the ninjas and the Miyamoto Musashi unit. I have no problem with the grenadiers (yet), however.

[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 01-26-2001).]

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Originally posted by Tachikaze-san:
Quote Grenades had a significant role in European warfare in the same era (Shogun takes place a little before the time of the Three Musketeers).

So, it is a valid battlefield unit, even if the Japanese never actually encountered them. The whole Mongol invasion thing is hypothetical anyway.[/QUOTE]

But, as far as anyone knows, the Japanese really DID encounter them. And the Mongol Invasion is not hypothetical. The Mongol campaign is set in the 13th century, when Kublai Khan's original invasion took place.

Maybe I should do like Erado-sama and set up a FAQ as keyboard macros. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

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"Never, youths, however wretched, / Nor in future, upgrown heroes, / Whether you have large possessions, / Or are poor in your possessions, / In the course of your lifetime, / While the golden moon is shining, / May you woo a golden woman, / Or distress yourselves for silver, /For the gleam of gold is freezing, / Only frost is breathed by silver."
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVIII, verses 241-250

[Nelson]

The Daimyo read me right. I'm not so sure that the grenadiers won't throw bombs like archers shoot arrows, though. We'll see.

Soly, my last paragraph may have sounded sarcastic but was not. Not that I eschew sarcasm or cynicism! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gifIt was an affirmation of my determination to have fun with the expansion.

Anssi, I will buy, play and enjoy WE/MI. More so now than previously I thought. My glasses will read "Caution - NOT a war game. Live with it!". And live with it I shall.

What I WON'T DO is be irritated by any ahistoric anomolies that appear, get pissed, toss the game and leave the forum in disgust. I have genuinely decided not to apply the historic yardstick any more. If I can enjoy defeating Spain with Mayans in AoK (and I do) then I can enjoy ALL of the new units in Shogun. I'm not comparing the two games just citing an anology. History was threatening to become an impedement to my enjoyment of Shogun. Now it will not. The whining from me is over, at least so far as accuracy is concerned. The game has crossed the line (the line being in my own mind, of course) and I have elected to cross over with it.

Oh, but I'm still willing to talk history.

Tachikaze, as you infered, grenadiers existed in 18th Europe by the thousands. The miter cap was designed to facilitate the throw. Initially (not for long) they tried to use bombs in the field but failed miserably. Imagine. Man lights bomb, gets shot, drops bomb, bomb explodes, more friendlies are injured. Not good. However, the same big, strapping, long armed men thought to make the ideal bomb throwers also proved to be useful shock troops and became the elite infantry. Grenades were relegated to siege work and cap plates, much to the satisfaction and relief of the grenadiers themselves.

In the game, I expect the Korean grenadiers to provide a means for the Mongols to deal with massed spear armed infantry, something Mongol cav would likely have trouble with. Especially since we have no reason to believe that decent melee infantry is a part of the Mongol OB.

[This message has been edited by Nelson (edited 01-26-2001).]

[Tachikaze]

Anssi,

I realize that the Japanese may have encountered grenades, but it was irrelevant to my point, so I didn't want anyone to argue one way or the other.

Also, I called the Mongol "hypothetical" not "fictional" because there was indeed an attempt to invade Japan, but it was aborted. The actual overrunning of Honshû in the game promotion is a "what if" scenario (thus hypothetical).

My point was that if the Japanese did not face grenades in their few encounters with the Mongols/Koreans, they may have faced them if the invasion of Honshû had actually occurred.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[This message has been edited by Tachikaze (edited 01-26-2001).]

[Kokueater]

Yes Tachikaze, you are right, the so called 'Mongol invasion' was not such a invasion.
The first seriuos attempt was in 1274, when about 30,000 men army landed in Kyushu (the Shimazu/Imagawa island in STW), but inexplicably it left Japan the same day.
Seven years later, two Mongol/korean fleets (about 140,000 men) landed again in Kyushu. A typhoon seriously damaged the ships August 14th. when the army was about to win, and forced the men to flee. The warriors that remain in land were mercilessly massacred.
Well, we'll have the chance to change the History very soon!

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Nelson-san, I still don't fully understand what in the grenadiers caused STW to cross the fine line between a wargame and a "Hollywood" game. But as I said, it's your choice. I'll still continue to refer to STW as a wargame right alongside Close Combat, however.

Tachikaze-san, I really did partially misunderstand your post - domô arigatô gozaimas, again. I thought your reference to the Three Musketeers meant that you considered the grenadiers a "historical unit" within a 16th/17th century time frame, when they are actually a 13th century unit. This doesn't mean they wouldn't have tactical utility against 16th century units as well, but that scenario is likely to materialize only in MP, as the Koreans/Mongols won't be seen in the normal SP campaign. (Unless... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif)

The Mongol invasion is hypothetical in the sense that it never became a real ground war - but by that reckoning, any historical game is hypothetical, as the game's events potentially differ from the actual history.

I wouldn't call the invasion attempts abortive, exactly, since both times saw serious attempts to land troops in Japan. Both of the attempts were not only aborted, but thwarted. According to Stephen Turnbull, the failure of the first (1274) invasion wasn't caused by the Mongols packing up and leaving, like Kokueater-san suggests, but another typhoon - though a considerably less destructive one than the actual kamikaze.

Kublai Khan actually planned a third invasion (implying his real desire to conquer Japan), but internal troubles in China prevented its realization until Kublai's death. After that, the Mongols gave it up.

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"Never, youths, however wretched, / Nor in future, upgrown heroes, / Whether you have large possessions, / Or are poor in your possessions, / In the course of your lifetime, / While the golden moon is shining, / May you woo a golden woman, / Or distress yourselves for silver, /For the gleam of gold is freezing, / Only frost is breathed by silver."
-The Kalevala, Poem XXXVIII, verses 241-250

[horatio]

I would assume that the grenaders would be a lesser unit than the musketeers. The grenades might actually do more damage, the range would really suck. So they WOULD much better on hillside defenses, but probably not much to contend with on open flat terrain. Because of this, I might expect the units to be smaller (like the ninja) and possibly faster than musketeers.

[Hosakawa Tito]

All I can say is the original game is well balanced,not perfect but then what is,and I believe the new units will be also.I'm willing to give EA the benefit of the doubt and that the new units and patch will enrich the game.
Tito

[Tachikaze]

Anssi,

I have to admit, I was thinking of the Sengoku period when I referred to the Three Musketeers (either that, or a candy bar).

But I don't complain as much about Japanese historical accuracy as I do about units that are not normal battlefield units. I don't want the tide of a battle turned by a lone swordsman, for instance.

So, I think the grenadiers are fine because I'm interested in a good computer wargame in which I can reproduce historical battle situations. I want to command standard tactical units, like spearmen, cavalry, and archers. Grenadiers played a part in historical warfare. Maybe not in the Mongol invasion of Japan, maybe not in Sengoku Japan, but they are a viable battlefield unit in pre-modern warfare.

The problem the designers are having is they set this game in an island nation with a single culture. That means less variety of units to choose from, while trying to stay with historical accuracy.

So, I don't mind if they stretch a little into other cultures to add spice to the game -- as long as they restrict themselves to battlefield military units.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

[Vanya]

A small transcript from "Vanya's History of Japan, EA Edition":

---
There they stood, awaiting the inevitable charge of the mongol horde and their legions of grenadiers. These 16 kensai were the first, last, and only line of defense that would protect Japan from the scum of Asia.

The grenadiers marched forward, and prepared to lob their explosive devices at the 16 samurai. The bombs fell down upon the japanese, but to the astonishment of the koreans, the kensai cut the fuses of the bombs before they reached the gun powder, thus rendering them useless heaps of metal and powder. This they did while performing incredible aerial acrobatics. The grenadiers grew impatient as they exhausted their bombs without causing a single casualty amongst the hopping japanese! Then, the 16 kensai rushed the hapless korean peasants, and they fled like whipped dogs! The few hundred mongol cavalry that was chaperoning their peasant masses tried in vain to rally their terrified koreans; spearmen, skirmishers... all ran away in terror... over 3000 of them fled the mere sight of the advancing 16 kensai. So the mongols charged their full contingent of 300 heavy cavalry at the 16. They too were cut to pieces by the masterful swordsmen, who leaped over their horses and beheaded them with the greatest of ease. In the end, the mongols themselves galloped past their korean comrades en route to their ships, those bulky black behemoths that had inspired fear in the ashigaru of Japan just days earlier.

But, the mongols were successful in cutting a few hairs off one of the kensai -- that was a true feat given that thousands of explosive devices being hurled at them had failed to do even that. This success comforted the mongols in that they finally knew the kensai were human after all and could thus be killed; this would prompt a future, more determined invasion of the Japanese homeland...

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 01-29-2001).]

[Dwimmerlaik]

Hehehehehe....very entertaining!

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To be happy it is necessary not to be too intelligent
- Flaubert-

http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/ff4summon/indra.gif

[ShadeHonestus]

We know that the Korean Grenadiers existed and they should prove interesting, but...
How about the co-existence of said Grenadiers and the Mongol Cav with Japanese Musket's and Arq's, as will be seen in the multiplayer games. They never met on a battlefield before now. If they are going to meet, at least you could give the Koreans some real artillery as they were the world leaders in it at the time of Japan's unification. The did have the Choson Academy dedicated to its development. Just ask the Japanese navy and army that tried to invade Korea at the end of the 16th century.

Oh, by the way...I wonder how much it will cost to buy a couple of well timed typhoons in the multiplayer games. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Puzz3D]

Too funny Vanya. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


Nelson: Have you looked into Yamaga's rules for online 2v2 battles? It's an attempt at added realism. Here's the link:
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000070.html

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~