Israel resumes assassinations--while abbas and Sharon holding peace talks!

[Hurin_Rules]

America's 'irreplacable ally' just resumed its policy of assassinations. The funniest part is, they did it WHILE ABBAS AND SHARON WERE HOLDING PEACE TALKS. Israeli officials also floated the idea of launching attacks with massive collateral damage in civilian areas if their assassinations don't work the first time. So, you can pretty much say bye bye ceasefire, hello holy war once again.

Unbelievable, you say? Not at all:



Israel resumes assassination policy
'Targeted killings' of Palestinian extremists had been suspended
Updated: 9:48 a.m. ET June 22, 2005

JERUSALEM - Israel said on Wednesday it had resumed an assassination policy against some Palestinian militants and could mount air strikes with the risk of civilian casualties to ensure its Gaza pullout does not come under fire.

The Israeli threats, prompted by a flare-up of Islamic Jihad militant attacks on Jewish settlers in Gaza, underscored the deterioration of a four-month-old cease-fire and followed an acrimonious Israeli-Palestinian summit.

Israel shelved “targeted killings” of militants in February as part of a truce deal. But resurgent violence has raised the specter of disruption to Israel’s planned August withdrawal from Gaza and dimmed hopes for “road map” peace talks afterwards.

Word that the assassination policy had been dusted off came with Israeli confirmation of a failed missile strike on Tuesday while Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas were holding tense talks in Jerusalem.

Missed 'opportunity'
“There was an attempt in Gaza to intercept an (Islamic Jihad) activist yesterday. It was unsuccessful,” Public Security Minister Gideon Ezra said. “An opportunity presented itself. Any means to neutralize the organization are relevant and possible.”

Islamic Jihad has resumed mortar bomb and rocket salvoes against Jewish settlements in Gaza in what it calls retaliation for continued Israeli raids to capture wanted militants.

“The attempt yesterday to kill an Islamic Jihad leader in Gaza signaled the resumption of the targeted killing policy,” an Israeli security source told Reuters.

Khaled al-Batsh, a senior Islamic Jihad leader, warned of “terrible consequences” if Israel carried out assassinations.

“The calm would thereby end. We will not be dictated to by Israel,” he told Reuters in Gaza.

Later, a senior adviser to Sharon said Israel could stage air strikes in Gaza, even at the risk of Palestinian civilian casualties, if militants tried to attack departing settlers in a bid to show they were chasing them out of occupied territory.

'Major collateral damage' possible
“Israel will act in a very resolute manner to prevent terror attacks and (militant) fire while the disengagement is being implemented,” said Eival Giladi, head of the Coordination and Strategy team in Sharon’s office.

“If pinpoint response proves insufficient, we may have to use weaponry that causes major collateral damage, including helicopters and planes, with mounting danger to people in the surrounding area,” Giladi said.

Withdrawing from Gaza under fire would be political poison for Sharon, strengthening rightist foes who have said the pullout would be perceived by the Palestinians and Arab world as a sign of weakness after four years of bloodshed.

Israeli air force drones have been hovering at low altitude over Gaza since Monday evening in an indication of preparedness for renewed lightning strikes on militants.

Tense summit
At their summit, Sharon complained to Abbas that the moderate Palestinian leader was doing little to rein in gunmen from whom he wrung a pledge of “calm” after his election in January on a platform of non-violence and peace negotiations.

Other militant groups including the most powerful, Hamas, have generally respected the truce pact. The overall level of violence is much lower than during the Palestinian revolt launched in the occupied West Bank and Gaza in 2000.

Sharon and Abbas agreed at their meeting to cooperate for as smooth as possible an evacuation of 8,500 settlers from Gaza and a few hundred among 230,000 in the West Bank set for August.

But aides to Abbas said Sharon brushed aside his requests for gestures to relieve burdens of occupation, including open borders for Gaza, a removal of a roadblock network in the West Bank and further releases of jailed Palestinians.

Abbas says such gestures would help him isolate militants.

However, Sharon stuck to his position that Abbas act first to disarm militants and ruled out diplomatic progress otherwise.

Washington counts on what would be Israel’s first uprooting of settlements on land Palestinians want for a state. Israel captured Gaza and the West Bank in the 1967 Middle East war.

Copyright 2005 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8315567/

[English assassin]

Well, we don't want the terrorists actually to stop, do we? We'd have to open checkpoints and stop building our wall and even stop being self righteous and admit that maybe the other side are human beings with rights too? You know, rights to things like water, and land they have farmed for 1000 years, and things like that

No no, when it all gets a bit quiet "we may have to use weaponry that causes major collateral damage, including helicopters and planes, with mounting danger to people in the surrounding area" Just so no one forgets who the good guys are.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Of course this is all Israels fault. The Palestinians have been behaving peacfully this whole time right?

Your article states


Israel shelved “targeted killings” of militants in February as part of a truce deal. But resurgent violence has raised the specter of disruption to Israel’s planned August withdrawal from Gaza and dimmed hopes for “road map” peace talks afterwards.

I guess we should just ignore this part or the fact that the opposition to that monster Sharon is against the pull out from Gaza because Hamas is touting it as a victory for them. It seems that the opposition is correct and all that will be acomplished is Hamas will have closer territory to launch attacks upon Israel.

So the Palestinians start it and then when Israel responds of course they escalte things.


Islamic Jihad has resumed mortar bomb and rocket salvoes against Jewish settlements in Gaza in what it calls retaliation for continued Israeli raids to capture wanted militants.

But of course this is Israels fault. So what if the terrorists are killing Israelis they like the US is held to a higher standard.

Heres a more balanced report.


Peace talks falter at violence

BEN LYNFIELD
IN JERUSALEM

ARIEL Sharon, the Israeli prime minister, and the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, appeared to make little progress in resolving basic differences yesterday when they met for their first summit in Jerusalem since agreeing to a truce in February.

The talks, which were intended to help build an atmosphere of trust in advance of Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, came against a background of growing hostilities between the two sides which threatened to derail the fragile ceasefire.

Israeli officials said that during the two-and-a-half-hour meeting in Jerusalem they had agreed on the transfer of the West Bank cities of Bethlehem and Qalqilya to Palestinian control in two weeks. But the transfer, like other steps that could boost Mr Abbas's standing, was made conditional on an improvement in the security situation.

The four-month old Palestinian ceasefire has been strained in recent days by a series of attacks by the radical Islamic Jihad movement and stepped up Israeli army operations against the small Palestinian faction, including the arrest of 52 of its members in the West Bank before dawn yesterday.

"It was a difficult meeting, it did not live up to the level of our expectations," said Ahmed Qurie, the Palestinian prime minister.

There was no joint press conference after the talks, with Mr Abbas due to make separate remarks upon his return to Ramallah. "We are still taking casualties," Mr Sharon complained to Mr Abbas in comments picked up by a microphone during a brief photo opportunity.

Israeli officials said they had agreed to consider more prisoner releases, subject to an improvement in the security situation, and would allow planning, but not construction on the destroyed Gaza airport.

The summit was held in the shadow of the arrests and what appeared to be a failed assassination attempt against an Islamic Jihad militant in Gaza just as it got under way. There was a message in the military actions: if Mr Abbas does not move to halt Palestinian attacks, Israel will act on its own.

The arrests came a day after an Israeli was killed in an attack in the West Bank claimed by Islamic Jihad, the third Islamic Jihad attack in three days.

One soldier and two militants died in previous clashes. Haim Ramon, an Israeli politician who helped with preparations for the summit, said the security situation under Mr Abbas was unstable. "There is a dissolution and anarchy, and nothing is being done," he said.

The lack of headway in the summit leaves the two sides with wide gaps in advance of Israel's planned withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and northern West Bank, due to start in mid-August. Israel keeps demanding Mr Abbas disarms militant groups, while the Palestinian leader has made clear his method of dealing with them is persuasion rather than confrontation.

The Palestinians, meanwhile, argue that Israel must be forthcoming in releasing prisoners, removing checkpoints, and giving Palestinians control at borders - steps Israel says could harm security.

Pointing to Israeli settlement expansion, Palestinians fear the Gaza pull-out is a ploy by Mr Sharon to consolidate Israel's hold on the West Bank and worry that it is being carried out in place of, rather than as a prelude to, negotiations according to the international peace blueprint known as the roadmap.

One of the few things the two sides have been able to agree on is that Israel will level the 1,200 settler homes there, and the Palestinians will remove the debris.

Israeli officials say the arrests mark a change in their policy and that henceforth, they will consider anyone affiliated with Islamic Jihad as a legitimate target. Previously, the official policy was to target only "ticking bombs" in the process of staging attacks.

Israeli forces ten days ago killed a senior Islamic Jihad military leader during a raid in the northern West Bank.

Army chief of staff, Dan Halutz, said that troops would "act in every place in which we have information about terrorists belonging to Islamic Jihad. We will try to put our hands upon them."

An Israeli aircraft fired two missiles at a target in Beit Lahiya in the northern Gaza Strip, with Palestinians saying no-one was wounded. Army officers later told Israel's Y-net news agency that this was an "elimination" attempt against an Islamic Jihad activist, the first avowed assassination bid since the Middle East ceasefire was agreed on 7 February at the Sharm al-Sheikh summit.

The militant group, which differs from Hamas in that it lacks an infrastructure of social institutions and focuses entirely on jihad, or "sacred struggle", against Israeli targets, has been the weak link in the ceasefire from the beginning.

Islamic Jihad carried out the deadliest single attack since the truce, the bombing of a nightclub in Tel Aviv on 25 February that killed five Israelis

Again it takes two to tango.

[Goofball]

Of course this is all Israels fault.

*sigh*

Gawain, blaming the Jews for all of the troubles of the world is the most time honored tradition of just about every group of people on Earth that has ever lived along side them. You should be used to it by now. Stop fighting it.

Repeat after me:

Bad Jews!
Bad Jews!
Bad Jews!

There, you have begun your reeducation. Wasn't that first step painless?

[Hurin_Rules]

So the Palestinians start it and then when Israel responds of course they escalte things.


How exactly do you reach that conclusion from the articles? It notes that over 10 days ago, the Israelis launched a raid that assassinated a Palestinian leader. Then the Palestinians launched reprisals, and the Israelis responded by resuming assassinations in general. Where do you get the 'Palestinians started it' from? I would think the Gaza raid should be considered a more likely beginning.

[English assassin]

Oops. I forgot the only reason anyone can be critical of the state of Isreal is that they hate all Jews.

Repeat after me:

Anti-semite!
Anti-semite!
Anti-semite!

There, I have begun my reeducation. Wasn't that first step painless?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Where do you get the 'Palestinians started it' from?

Right here


The arrests came a day after an Israeli was killed in an attack in the West Bank claimed by Islamic Jihad, the third Islamic Jihad attack in three days.

The assaination attempt happened afterwards.


The summit was held in the shadow of the arrests and what appeared to be a failed assassination attempt against an Islamic Jihad militant in Gaza just as it got under way.

More on the matter


Violence threatens to halt Mideast talks
Ibrahim Barzak, AP
May 18, 2005

Go to Original article

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) -- A sharp flare-up of violence Wednesday - including one Palestinian militant killed, an Israeli airstrike against Hamas and the shelling of Jewish settlements - jeopardized a fragile truce and threatened to derail efforts to restart Mideast peace talks.

Both Israel and Hamas warned of punishing responses that could degenerate into a resumption of attacks, counterattacks, invasions and bombings.

At nightfall, Palestinian police moved in to try to quell the outbreak in Khan Younis, a poverty-stricken city of 100,000, with a squalid refugee camp of 60,000.

The Palestinian Interior Ministry charged that Hamas militants used civilians as shields, and eight officers were hurt by rocks. "This cannot be accepted and this serious violation will not pass (unanswered)," a ministry statement said.

Such violence has been rare since the cease-fire, declared at a Feb. 8 summit between Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

The trouble began just after midnight with Israeli soldiers shooting and killing a 22-year-old Hamas militant on the Gaza-Egypt border. The Israeli military said Palestinians fired rifles and anti-tank grenades at soldiers, who returned the fire.

In apparent retaliation, Palestinians launched more than 20 mortar shells at Jewish settlements across from the refugee camp, slightly wounding an Israeli. For the first time since the truce was declared, Israeli helicopters flew into Palestinian territory and fired a missile, saying the target was "a terrorist cell about to launch further mortars." Two Palestinians were wounded, one critically.

Israel contacted Palestinian officials and demanded that they halt the barrages, said David Baker, an official in Sharon's office. If they do not, he warned, "Israel will take all steps necessary to stop it, whatever that may entail."

Hamas spokesman Mushir al-Masri called the airstrike the latest in a "series of Israeli escalations. ... The calm declared is a conditional one, and we have the right to respond to any violation."

At nightfall, Palestinian police moved in to the refugee camp to try to stop the rocket and mortar fire, and witnesses saw clashes between police and armed militants. No casualties were reported.

The truce has survived a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv in February and a barrage of more than 90 rockets and mortars on Jewish settlements in Gaza on a single day in April after Israeli troops killed three Palestinian teenagers.

The truce is seen as a key part of a chain of events that international mediators hope will lead to resumption of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, frozen during more than four years of bloodshed.

After the death on Nov. 11 of Yasser Arafat, blamed by Israel and the U.S. for encouraging violent Palestinian resistance and attacks on Israelis, Abbas won a Jan. 9 election to succeed him. Abbas has called violence a mistake and has moved to reform his security services.

The Palestinians have had three rounds of local elections and are scheduled to vote for parliament this summer. Simultaneously, Israel is moving ahead with its plan to pull Jewish settlers out of Gaza and part of the West Bank, starting in August.

All this could lead to a calmer atmosphere conducive to peace talks, with the internationally-backed "road map" plan leading to creation of a Palestinian state, accepted in principle by both sides, already on the table.

But a resumption of violence would scuttle any possibility of negotiations.

Israel says it wants to avoid clashes with the Palestinians during its summer pullout from Gaza. At the same time, Israel has pledged harsh retaliation if Jewish settlers or troops are attacked during the operation.

Israel said it had no choice but to hit back. "What do you expect us to do if they are attacking us?" said Raanan Gissin, a Sharon spokesman.

The government has been pressuring Gaza settlers to accept a plan to move them as a group to a coastal area in southern Israel. Justice Minister Tzipi Livni gave settlers seven days Wednesday to accept the offer. She said 426 of the 1,600 families in Gaza settlements have signed up for relocation.

"Someone who joins at the last minute will not get the same things that we can give those who join today," Livni told reporters.

Avner Shimoni, a Gaza settler leader, condemned the ultimatum.

"What are they giving us, what are they offering us?" he told Israel Radio. "We'll just stay in Gush Katif," the largest settlement bloc.

Also Wednesday, the Palestinian legislature approved a new electoral law, but Abbas is expected to veto the legislation, raising fresh doubts about whether a parliament election set for July 17 will be held on time.

Abbas and his Fatah movement, which controls parliament, are wrangling over the method by which the new legislature will be chosen. Abbas wants all lawmakers to be chosen from party slates. However, under the new electoral law passed Wednesday, two-thirds of the legislators would be elected from districts.

Hamas is posing a serious challenge, tapping into voter disaffection with a decade of Fatah rule characterized by corruption and inefficiency.


From this article


Such violence has been rare since the cease-fire, declared at a Feb. 8 summit between Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

The trouble began just after midnight with Israeli soldiers shooting and killing a 22-year-old Hamas militant on the Gaza-Egypt border. The Israeli military said Palestinians fired rifles and anti-tank grenades at soldiers, who returned the fire.

Now of course you are going to say the Israelis are lying. They just decicded to shoot this guy because he was a Palestinian. Evrytime we come close to peace these radicals resume their terror and when Israel responds people like you blame Israel.

[Hurin_Rules]

The assaination attempt happened afterwards.

But the first assassination was over 10 days ago, a week before the Palestinian retaliation, when the Israeli forces raided and killed a senior Palestinian in the West Bank. I'm not sure where you got your article from (again, I beg you to please post the links where you get your articles from when you post them; it makes life so much easier for the rest of us), but the article you posted does either purposely or unconsciously attempt to hide the fact the the Israeli action happened first. You have to read through to near the end of the article before they mention the raid in the West Bank, which appears to have started it all. But on the basis of these articles, the very first act of violence in this chain is the assassination in the west bank, followed by Palestinian retaliation, followed by another botched attempt at assassination by the Israelis as the summit was going on.

[PanzerJaeger]

America's 'irreplacable ally' just resumed its policy of assassinations.

Good. Anti Israeli/American terrorists shouldnt be negotiated with. The should be killed on the spot.

They will be treated as civilized human beings when they start acting like it.

[Byzantine Prince]

As long as they don't hit civilians, why would Abbas care. He himself ordered that guards be placed on the border to protect Israel from attacks.

[Goofball]

Oops. I forgot the only reason anyone can be critical of the state of Isreal is that they hate all Jews.

Repeat after me:

Anti-semite!
Anti-semite!
Anti-semite!

There, I have begun my reeducation. Wasn't that first step painless?

Good start. Now: lather, rinse, and repeat.

Seriously though, I just find it comical that just about every Israel/Palestine thread in this forum is filled with people bemoaning the plight of the "innocent" Palestinians and blaming the whole problem on the Jews. Wake up folks. Both sides believe their backs are up against the wall, and that's when people don't always make the best decisions.

And don't fool yourself EA. While you personally may not me motivated in your criticism of Israel by a hate or deep-seated distrust of Jews, there are many who are.

As far as I am concerned, anybody who believes that this whole problem is caused by the Israelis alone falls into one of two categories:

a) they are woefully ignorant of the situation and its history;

or

b) they just don't like Jews.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Heres a better title for this


Violence breaks out as Israel publishes list of prisoners to be released
12:39 PM EDT Jun 22
IBRAHIM BARZAK

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - An Israeli aircraft fired missiles near a Palestinian refugee camp Monday, destroying two rocket launchers and wounding three people, while Israel published a list of 400 Palestinian prisoners to be released later this week.

The prisoner release, which was set for Thursday, is part of a February ceasefire agreement, but has been repeatedly delayed.

Israel's foreign minister, meanwhile, said Prime Minister Ariel Sharon plans to meet with Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas soon in Jerusalem to co-ordinate security in the Gaza Strip after Israel has withdrawn from the area.

Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom gave no date for the Sharon-Abbas meeting, which would be the first since the two met at a Feb. 8 summit in the Egyptian Red Sea resort of Sharm-el-Sheikh that produced the truce.

Israel is trying to work out security concerns with the Palestinians in order to make sure the Gaza Strip does not come under the sway of Hamas or other militant groups, Shalom said outside a European-Mideast conference in Luxembourg.

Israel plans to begin withdrawing from Gaza and parts of the West Bank in mid-August.

The army said it carried out the air strike as militants were preparing to fire rockets or mortar shells from northern Gaza. It said two launchers were destroyed, but militants preparing the attack left the scene before the strike.

Hospital officials said a man and two women, apparently bystanders, were wounded by shrapnel.

Islamic Jihad, a militant group, said one of its cells, which minutes earlier had fired three rockets at an Israeli village just outside Gaza, was the target of the air strike.

During more than four years of fighting, Israel carried out dozens of air strikes on militant targets in Gaza. But violence has dropped dramatically since the ceasefire went into effect, although fighting has begun to flare up in recent weeks.

Israel published a list of the Palestinian prisoners to be released on Thursday, which included 93 detainees serving terms of five years or more on charges including attempted shootings, the preparation of explosives and assisting attempted murder.

In the past, Israel has refused to release prisoners who have not served two-thirds of their terms, but the list published Monday included several who have completed only a small fraction of their sentences.

The list was published on a government website to give Israeli opponents a chance to appeal to courts. In the past, such appeals have delayed release of some prisoners.

Israel had insisted that first, Abbas' Palestinian Authority must disarm militants and halt all violence before Israel continues steps agreed to under the February truce.

The agreement between Sharon and Abbas included an end to violence, the handover of five West Bank towns to Palestinian control, and the release of 900 prisoners.

Israel freed 500 prisoners and turned over two towns but stopped the process at that point, saying Palestinians had failed to carry out their pledge to disarm the militants in the towns under their control. Also, Israel said Palestinian militants still attempt many attacks that are foiled by Israeli security.

Palestinians criticized the decision, saying Israel broke its agreement to consult them on which prisoners to release.

More than 7,000 Palestinians are in Israeli custody, many rounded up by troops during more than four years of Israeli-Palestinian violence.

In other developments Monday:

-Militants carried out two attempted attacks on Israeli forces in southern Gaza, firing an anti-tank missile in one instance, causing no damage or injuries, the army said.

-Sufian Abu Zaydeh, the Palestinian minister in charge of prisoner affairs, said the Palestinian Authority has suspended plans to execute two dozen Palestinians convicted of collaborating with Israel, fearing that putting the inmates to death would inflame tensions with Israel.


Damn Israelis.

Hers more


WND FROM WND'S JERUSALEM BUREAU
Sharon to give Abbas Bethlehem, Gaza airport
Decision comes despite Palestinian record of using territory against Israel
Posted: June 21, 2005
5:20 p.m. Eastern

By Aaron Klein
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

Israel will shortly hand over Bethlehem and another West Bank town to Palestinian control and will allow the Palestinians to open their airport in the Gaza Strip it was decided today at a summit between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.

Sharon told Abbas Israel will transfer Bethlehem and Qalqilyah to the Palestinians within two weeks and will consider releasing 20 long-term Palestinian prisoners if there is a drop in terror. Sharon also said he would allow the Palestinians to reopen their Gaza airport, which was recently renamed the Yasser Arafat Memorial Airport, even though it was last used by Palestinian terror groups to smuggle in weapons.

What a bastard he is. Its clear the Israelis and Sharon most of all want only war.

LINK (http://news.surfwax.com/politics/files/Islamic_Jihad.html)

[Kaiser of Arabia]

*sigh*

Gawain, blaming the Jews for all of the troubles of the world is the most time honored tradition of just about every group of people on Earth that has ever lived along side them. You should be used to it by now. Stop fighting it.

Repeat after me:

Bad Jews!
Bad Jews!
Bad Jews!

There, you have begun your reeducation. Wasn't that first step painless?
Hey, that's the Kaiser's job! ~D

[Hurin_Rules]

Gawain, you're not responding to the fact that your timeline on these incidents was incorrect, so I'm assuming you're accepting that it was the Israeli raid that began this latest cycle of violence.

Also, the first article you posted in your most recent post is clearly dated. It says June 22, but in fact the meeting between Abbas and Sharon has already occured, whereas the article says it is impending. I'm not sure why their timeline is so out of date.

Nor am I exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish with those posts. They don't really speak to the fact that Israel has resumed assassinations, which essentially unilaterally ends the ceasefire.

[PanzerJaeger]

How much of a fool do you think the Israelis are Hurin?

Why would they bow to European public opinion and allow their enemies time to gather and make larger attacks if they can kill them? Only America is that stupid.

Why is Abbas even talking to Sharon if the Israelis are all to blame for this? He knows that Israel is taking out his own enemies aswell - the palestinian terrorists.

Think about who you are really supporting by posting such propaganda. Is it the palestinian people or the terrorist groups?

[Goofball]

Why is Abbas even talking to Sharon if the Israelis are all to blame for this? He knows that Israel is taking out his own enemies aswell - the palestinian terrorists.

Think about who you are really supporting by posting such propaganda. Is it the palestinian people or the terrorist groups?

Wow. Even though I applied my normal thorough (some might even say nitpicking) level of scrutiny to one of Panzer's posts, I failed to find anything wrong with this bit.

Well said.

[PanzerJaeger]

Theres a first time for everything.. ~D

[Don Corleone]

I need to go make sure my insurance is paid up. Goofy and PJ agreeing.... ~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek:

It's the APOCALYPSE!!!!

[Papewaio]

This situation in Israel is not a unique situation, stop thinking that your own countries and ancestors never did the same thing.

Generally throughout the history of human conflict the most dangerous fighting occurs before and during the peace talks.

One of the basic reasons is that the ferocity of the fighting and any land gains can then be used as leverage for conditions at the negotiating table.

[Goofball]

Further backup to what Panzer said earlier:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1119435267948&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968705899037&t=TS_Home

Here is the relevant section:


"This country needs order, needs quiet," Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia shouted, repeating a theme he has pressed for weeks. But even as he spoke, gunfire rang out, startling Qureia and putting his bodyguards on high alert.


Associated Press Television News footage showed militants angrily waving their weapons as Qureia's security guards — their rifles trained on the gunmen — stood at the windows of the building where the prime minister was speaking in the Balata camp next to the city of Nablus.


"Don't listen to them. Don't be scared, don't let these gunmen run the show," Qureia implored his audience.


After Qureia's speech, gunmen opened fire again and set off an explosive device about 300 metres from his convoy. No one was injured. Qureia was whisked away.

This part is also very telling:


In the southern city of Hebron, about 100 high school students who complained their final exam in physics was too difficult attacked the education department, throwing stones and burning tires.


The youths hurled rocks at 70 Palestinian police officers in riot gear and damaged a fire truck trying to extinguish the burning tires.

These youths are the sad product of a culture that has been taught for years by its morally bankrupt leadership that the best way to make people listen to you is through violence.

[Don Corleone]

Further backup to what Panzer said earlier:

.

STOP IT! YOU'RE SCARING ME!!! Move away from the computer and relinquish control to my crazy Lefty friend from the North.

[Goofball]

STOP IT! YOU'RE SCARING ME!!! Move away from the computer and relinquish control to my crazy Lefty friend from the North.

Weird, eh?

:dizzy2:

[Hurin_Rules]

Why would they bow to European public opinion and allow their enemies time to gather and make larger attacks if they can kill them? Only America is that stupid.


Gee, I don't know... because they signed an agreement to do so? If they couldn't live up to their end of the bargain, why did they promise to stop assassinations? Or are you arguing that Israel, like America at Guantanamo, should behave in the manner of "Do as I say, not as I do?"



Think about who you are really supporting by posting such propaganda. Is it the palestinian people or the terrorist groups?

Please, no ad hominems.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Or are you arguing that Israel, like America at Guantanamo, should behave in the manner of "Do as I say, not as I do?"

The US is doing nothing wrong at Gitmo other than spending too much money pampering these bastards.


Gawain, you're not responding to the fact that your timeline on these incidents was incorrect, so I'm assuming you're accepting that it was the Israeli raid that began this latest cycle of violence.

Never assume. There were Palestinian attacks long before the 22nd.

[PanzerJaeger]

Gee, I don't know... because they signed an agreement to do so? If they couldn't live up to their end of the bargain, why did they promise to stop assassinations? Or are you arguing that Israel, like America at Guantanamo, should behave in the manner of "Do as I say, not as I do?"

Now I havent read the agreement in its entirety, but I can only assume the Israelis wouldnt sign an agreement like this without the Palestinians agreeing to stop the violence on their side.

Now the real argument is: Are terrorists making bombs and preparing attacks a continuation of violence, or were they just practicing?

Its kind of like right before Barbarossa. Would Stalin have been justified in attacking Hitler since the entire German army was massing on his border?

Were the Israelis justified in bombing Egyptian air bases since they knew Egypt was preparing to bomb them?


Again, its stupid to claim the Israelis started this string of violence. No piece of paper would stop a country from acting in its own defence.

[Hurin_Rules]

Now the real argument is: Are terrorists making bombs and preparing attacks a continuation of violence, or were they just practicing?


Why isn't it: Are Israelis launching raids into the occupied territories, killing civilians and assasinating Palestinian a continuation of violence, or were they just practising?

Just wondering.

[Goofball]

Why isn't it: Are Israelis launching raids into the occupied territories, killing civilians and assasinating Palestinian a continuation of violence, or were they just practising?

Just wondering.

Come on, HR, you're smarter than that. Playing the "who shot first game" in this situation doesn't work. Right or wrong, the fact is that the nation of Israel exists. The goal of the terrorists is nothing less than the extermination of Israel, so they keep sending in bombers to derail the peace process. Then the Israeli gov't has no choice but to retaliate by assassinating/bombing terrorist targets, because their own citizens demand it. It is an extremely difficult situation, but you seem to believe that the Israelis have no right to defend themselves/retaliate in the face of daily attacks by their enemies. While you may be (probably are) right in thinking that Israel should just unilaterally stand down and not retaliate (as this is the only way to secure a lasting peace), that is a very difficult thing to sell to their citizens. For any gov't to sit idly by while its people are being killed is simply an untenable position.

Imagine if one of the larger Indian Reserves in Canada suddenly declared "war" on us and started sending suicide bombers into downtown Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver every day. You could argue the right or wrong about whether we had stolen their land all day long, but the fact would remain that Canada now exists as a nation, and we simply cannot pack up, go back to Europe, and return all of the Indians' land. What we would do after they murdered enough of us, is build barricades around the offending Reservation, then start sending in the JTF2 boys to try to take out their leadership. Failing that, the bombings would start. What other choice would we have?

[Hurin_Rules]

Goofball, I understand what you're saying, but let me clarify: I am not saying that in all of these incidents it is Israelis who are to blame. I was merely pointing out that in this incident it seems they are, and I also noted that others seems to assume the opposite without any real grounds for doing so.

[Goofball]

Goofball, I understand what you're saying, but let me clarify: I am not saying that in all of these incidents it is Israelis who are to blame. I was merely pointing out that in this incident it seems they are, and I also noted that others seems to assume the opposite without any real grounds for doing so.

Fair enough.

[Steppe Merc]

But of course this is Israels fault. So what if the terrorists are killing Israelis they like the US is held to a higher standard.
In my opinon they are. Why? Because Isreal is an official government. The Palestinian terrorists aren't.

[caesar44]

America's 'irreplacable ally' just resumed its policy of assassinations. The funniest part is, they did it WHILE ABBAS AND SHARON WERE HOLDING PEACE TALKS. Israeli officials also floated the idea of launching attacks with massive collateral damage in civilian areas if their assassinations don't work the first time. So, you can pretty much say bye bye ceasefire, hello holy war once again.

Unbelievable, you say? Not at all:



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8315567/

you know what i don't belive ? i don't belive in twisting the truth ! not one word of the reason for israel resuming the policy of "assassinations"
did you know about the palestinian girl who got caught with bombs several meters from a israeli hospital ? who cares , just blame the jew ! did you know that from the starts of the "ceasefire" the palestinians holly warriors launched dozens of missiles to israeli towns ? no who cares , just blame the jew , it is so cool the blame the descendants of the holocaust survivers of creating another one ha ? no matter the truth , no matter the facts , israel leaders just want's to kill innocents palestinians
yes sharon is the true bin laden and HAMAS is just another peace movement ...
by the way , your french problem in quebec is solved or you just like to feel self righteous ah ?

[caesar44]

*sigh*

Gawain, blaming the Jews for all of the troubles of the world is the most time honored tradition of just about every group of people on Earth that has ever lived along side them. You should be used to it by now. Stop fighting it.

Repeat after me:

Bad Jews!
Bad Jews!
Bad Jews!

There, you have begun your reeducation. Wasn't that first step painless?

you know what ? you are so right !!!
"jews are bad"
"jews are worst than just bad"
i have a good one - "jews are ....... jews !!!!!!!!" "they killed jesus (he was a jew was he ?) and now they are killing everybody"

~:cheers: to all of you !!!

[Beirut]

you know what ? you are so right !!!
"jews are bad"
"jews are worst than just bad"
i have a good one - "jews are ....... jews !!!!!!!!" "they killed jesus (he was a jew was he ?) and now they are killing everybody"

~:cheers: to all of you !!!

I really don't think you should speak so badly of the Jews. I have found them to be very lively, educated, fun, fond of life and great conversationalists.

I think you simply haven't gotten out enough and met enough Jewish people to form a positive opinion of them.

[caesar44]

such a nice words ...
that is the spirit dude ~:)

[Steppe Merc]

I don't blame the Jews. I blame the Isreali government. They are a legitimate government that do horrible things. Yes they are in response to horrible things. But the Palestinians have no government, so it isn't the Palestinians fault. It is some of the Palestinian's fault.

[Hurin_Rules]

by the way , your french problem in quebec is solved or you just like to feel self righteous ah ?

No one has died due to the French separatist movement since the 1970s. Separatists have been allowed to create their own parties and will be allowed to separate from the country should they get a sufficient majority in a plebiscite. This lack of violence is generally what occurs when you act with reason and restraint. Perhaps Israel should take notice.

[Goofball]

No one has died due to the French separatist movement since the 1970s. Separatists have been allowed to create their own parties and will be allowed to separate from the country should they get a sufficient majority in a plebiscite. This lack of violence is generally what occurs when you act with reason and restraint. Perhaps Israel should take notice.

The (extremely, painstakingly, blatantly) obvious difference in the two situations is that the French seperatists are not trying to murder us on a daily basis. And if you remember the one time they did, we responded with an immediate and heavy-handed use of military force. Martial law was declared and Canadian soldiers were patrolling the streets in Quebec with fixed bayonets.

It's very easy for us to sit here and say "But if you'd just be nice to the terrorists they'll go away." But we haven't lost any family members to bombs.

And by the way, I'm pretty sure you are wrong about this part:


and will be allowed to separate from the country should they get a sufficient majority in a plebiscite.

I guarantee you that no sitting Canadian government (not to mention Beirut and his chainsaws) would allow Quebec to unilaterally seperate even if 100% of Quebeckers voted "Oui."

[caesar44]

HR
nop
the israelis are living in the middle east , a region without peace for hhhmmm 6,000 years , now if the state of israel is 57 years old , its responsibility for wars is just 57/6000 , that is 0.95 % .
let us see , if israel is a war state for 57 years out of 57 years , the solution is simple - just erase it (maybe with some canadian soldiers ? they had noting to do in canada since the wiping out of the native americans...)

[Beirut]

The HUGE difference between the situations is that Canada does not occupy Quebec, does not torture Quebecers, does not steal their water and land and deny them the necessities of life.

Quebec is treated like the Golden Child by Canada. The Palestinians are treated like animals and slaves by the Israelis.

[Beirut]

HR
nop
the israelis are living in the middle east , a region without peace for hhhmmm 6,000 years , now if the state of israel is 57 years old , its responsibility for wars is just 57/6000 , that is 0.95 % .
let us see , if israel is a war state for 57 years out of 57 years , the solution is simple - just erase it (maybe with some canadian soldiers ? they had noting to do in canada since the wiping out of the native americans...)

Are you comparing present-day Israeli mentality with an 18th century mentality?

Interesting.

[caesar44]

now how do you know ? from the biased TV , very good source of information .......
the nazis published several movies that showed a happy jews .....
:book:

[Goofball]

The HUGE difference between the situations is that Canada does not occupy Quebec

Yes, we do.


does not torture Quebecers, does not steal their water and land and deny them the necessities of life.

We did, but it was a long time ago.

And the only necessity of life the Israelis deny the Palestinians is their apparent craving to murder Jews.

I'll ask again:

Why is it that you constantly demand that the Israelis immediately give up all of their "stolen" land when Jordan was formed in exactly the same way, and is just as guilty of denying Palestinians these "basic necessities of life?" What do you think the Jordanians would do if they were hit by Palestinian suicide bombers two or three times per week? Turn the other cheek? And do you know why they aren't subject to Palestinian attacks? Because they aren't Jews. Pretty racist, hateful policy on the part of the Palestinians, I'd say.

[Beirut]

Yes, we do.

Um, do you live in the same Canada as me?



And the only necessity of life the Israelis deny the Palestinians is their apparent craving to murder Jews.

~:eek: Wow! That's quite the seething statement coming from you.

Are you chanelling Nerouin?


Why is it that you constantly demand that the Israelis immediately give up all of their "stolen" land when Jordan was formed in exactly the same way, and is just as guilty of denying Palestinians these "basic necessities of life?"

I have never, not once supported Jordan concerning anything. I have, on the other hand, condemned them along with the other Arab countries for abandoning the Palestinian people and leaving them in the brutal clutches of the Israelis.


And do you know why they aren't subject to Palestinian attacks? Because they aren't Jews. Pretty racist, hateful policy on the part of the Palestinians, I'd say.

Maybe also because it's been a while since the Jordanians blasted any tank shells or Hellfire missiles into Gaza. Maybe because the Jordanians aren't bulldozing Palestinian homes. maybe because the Jordanians aren't stealing all the Palestinian water. Maybe it's a lot of things.