View Full Version : Gettysburg Casino
Here. (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=868245&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312)
The investors' group, Chance Enterprises, has proposed building a 200-room hotel and a casino that would initially have 3,000 slot machines on a 42-acre site less than two miles from the Gettysburg National Military Park.
In a statement announcing the plan, David LeVan, a local businessman who is the president of Chance Enterprises, said the casino "will provide added amenities for the millions of tourists who already visit our historical sites. They will have an added incentive to stay in our area longer, thereby spending more dollars."
John Brabender, a consultant to Chance Enterprises, said the casino would not have a Civil War theme and would not exploit Gettysburg's heritage.
"What we are concerned about is that these local groups don't jump to an opinion about it," he said. "We have offered to work with all the historic groups so they can be assured that whatever the facility would look like, whatever themes would be used, would not be in conflict with the character of the area."A casino built on/near the site of one of the bloodiest battles ever on American soil.... what do you think?
Alexander the Pretty Good
06-23-2005, 02:44
And that is such beautiful country, too.
I think more distance would be in order.
Stupid... business. :furious3:
Don Corleone
06-23-2005, 02:50
Hey there Alex, you're a Conservative! No such thing as stupid business. ~D
All kidding aside, I think this shows an utter lack of decorum. I go to Gettysburg at least once every other year, and I'm full enough of piss & vinegar to go throw a one man protest in front of the place my next trip through.
Among the people that would do this.... no honor, no thankfulness, no shame. :no:
Don Corleone
06-23-2005, 03:02
This is outright blashphempy. I'm all about turning a profit, but.... :furious3:... I do so want to cuss. This is where our forefathers shed their blood over what kind of freedom we would enjoy in this country. This is where we learned just how terrible warfare can be. I wrote to the author of your article, and one of a nearby newspaper. Should I get contact information for this "Chance Enterprises", I urge you all to join me in a letter-writing & phone campaign that will make them reconsider the wisdom of their decision.
Alexander the Pretty Good
06-23-2005, 03:04
Well, I'm conservative and this casino thing is change so naturally I'm opposed to it.~;p
The one time I was there is was just great. The sense of history, actually seeing stuff that was in the battle, and once again the really nice surroundings.
Among the people that would do this.... no honor, no thankfulness, no shame.
I agree.
:no:
Byzantine Prince
06-23-2005, 03:10
Among the people that would do this.... no honor, no thankfulness, no shame. :no:
Meh, the type of people who would desicrate a battlefield are the same people kind of people who rape the environment, and con people out of their money on a daily basis, so why should this stand in their way?
Frankly I'm not surprised. I'm just surprised this hasn't hapened earlier. ~:eek:
Don Corleone Since you go there every year what's the basis of taking down the gettysburg tower or was that just a rumour I heard. I used to live in Pennsylvania and have been there many times. But it is my understanding the tower got taken down for historical preservation. And if they tore down an observation tower why the hell put a casino in there
http://www.gettysburg.com/bog/tower.htm
http://www.gettysburgaddress.com/HTMLS/tower.html
I'll read further into it but that tower is definately not near as offensive as a casino. Casino's don't bother me but considering the preservation they are trying to keep I don't see how a casino can outdo a tower
Ok I read a bit into that even though it was on private property congress authorized the aquisition of the property to take down the tower. Although I don't understand the full extent of it, the tower did give a good view of the overall battlefield but historians wanted it removed.
Don Corleone
06-23-2005, 03:32
BP, Sorry man, I'd love to answer, but you're on my personal ban list. Fun, fun fun.
Oaty, as far as I understand, the tower sat on a historically prominent spot (I 'think' Little Round top, but I don't honestly know). The idea for it's construction was that much of the park is forested (and uninhabited) and it made a good firewatch tower. But historians freaked, as it lines up as a prominent eyesore if you re-march Pickett's footsetps.
Money makes the world go 'round. America is no exception. Now, tourists get to visit the historical site, relax, and enjoy the excitement of gambling all in one place!
I wouldn't go so far as to say "blasphemy", but it is rather silly. Good business practice, though, unless everyone who ever visits the site from here on in thinks "Oh, that's a slimy way to make a buck. Count me out."
Don Corleone
06-23-2005, 03:39
Ditto. Last thing I have to say to you sir, is that I neither respect, nor answer the opinions of people who think 2 year old's having their skulls blown open is 'funny'.
Ditto. Last thing I have to say to you sir, is that I neither respect, nor answer the opinions of people who think 2 year old's having their skulls blown open is 'funny'.
You just did.
http://www.gettysburgaddress.com/HTMLS/currentnews.html
It was definately a dirty deal. I have a feeling that there was some greasing of the palms. The tower was on part of the battlefield is a fact but it was not on or near little round top. It definately did give a good view. Little roundtop was about a mile away from the tower from my optical observation. Now watch that casino be built near by with a big observation tower ~D
The goverment granted the park eminent domain to over 100 properties to preserve the battlefield. They still have properties to aquire. My main concern is how far away from the battlefield is it going to be and will there be height restrictions on the casino and its facilties that aquire to the casino. They are going as far as to rebuilding hedgerows to bring it back it's historical look. So no eyesores within sight of the battlefield.
Sasaki Kojiro
06-23-2005, 04:05
From what I remember from the time I was there, the town is crowding the battlefield as it is. If it doesn't intrude on the battlefield it would be alright I guess.
Don Corleone
06-23-2005, 04:06
You don't see a 'missed message' there, do you? Perhaps we should build a whore house at Pearl Harbor or an opium den on Bunker Hill? These are all money making ventures as well, are they not?
Yeah, my view is it detracts from the seriousness of the battlefield while trying to cash in on its popularity. "Hey, after we visit 'the wheatfield', we can go to the casino and get trashed while we try to win some cash!" I hope the citizens of the town and history enthusiasts get this stopped- it's disrespectful.
Sasaki Kojiro
06-23-2005, 04:15
You don't see a 'missed message' there, do you? Perhaps we should build a whore house at Pearl Harbor or an opium den on Bunker Hill? These are all money making ventures as well, are they not?
Illegal ones...
I'm wondering if the soldiers in said battles would have taken advantage of such facilities...
I'd rather it wasn't there though.
Illegal ones...
I'm wondering if the soldiers in said battles would have taken advantage of such facilities...
What's that got to do with anything? ~:confused:
Don Corleone
06-23-2005, 04:17
I'm sure they would have, as at the time, gambling, prostitution and narcotics were all legal. Now, however, none are. One question I forgot to ask is how this is being done off of a Native American reservation. Has Pennsylvania decided to incur the wrath of the federal government and ammend it's state consitution, or is there a loophole about the graves of our forefathers?
Stupid... business. :furious3:
You have said something that I can hands down say I totally agree with. ~;)
You never know soon, you might be saying splendid state! ~D
Anyway as to the thread, I have to say I find it rather saddening. Waterloo battlefield has been totally spoilt now looks like Gettysburg is down that road, and that is very depressing.
The two battles that helped define the two most powerful continents of the modern world as much / more than any others, being totally ruined just doesn't seem right to me.
BTW - I do love all these free marketeers worrying and blaming the free market for doing what it is simply designed for. It makes you think - there might be some chance for you. ~;)
It is also a perfect example of how the free market alone is not good enough, it does need to be seriously amended to fit a more decent model. ~:cheers:
Don Corleone
06-23-2005, 04:27
Jag,
You believe in the right to consume alcohol, do you not? If your sister showed up to mother's funeral piss drunk, would you be offended?
I actually dont' see a contradiction here. Despite what you think about us objectivists, we can agree with you, there is such a thing as taste. Any ground you're hoping to gain probably begins and ends here.
One question I forgot to ask is how this is being done off of a Native American reservation. Has Pennsylvania decided to incur the wrath of the federal government and ammend it's state consitution, or is there a loophole about the graves of our forefathers?Oh yes- that's another can of worms entirely and we have 'fast' Eddy Rendell to thank for pushing it through. PA has legalized a small number of "slot machine" casinos under the pretence that the tax revenue generated from the casinos will allow local property tax relief. Even on the face of it it's silly- instead of straight out taxing people you let the casinos swindle people out of money and then tax that to generate revenue. If people want to blow the money on slots, fine, they can- but don't try to dress it up as tax relief.
About a year later and, like casinos themselves, the idea has yet to payout. When you get to the actual bill it gets even better too. To legislature wrote in allowances for themselves to be allowed to own a small percentage of the casinos if they choose. Also, do to they limited number of licenses available, you have to line up to 'convince' a government commission that you deserve a license to operate slot machines. Bad government at its worst.
BTW - I do love all these free marketeers worrying and blaming the free market for doing what it is simply designed for. It makes you think - there might be some chance for you. Im all for the free market- and I'm all for the free market forces stopping this. People who feel strongly about this need to make their voices heard and let the town and company involved know that this will not be in their best interests.
Don Corleone
06-23-2005, 04:35
Well, it won't stand. You've only got so long before AG Alberto Gonzalez sues your state on grouds of the supremacy clause. You can't run a casino, Congress has already outlawed them.
I'm sure they would have, as at the time, gambling, prostitution and narcotics were all legal. Now, however, none are. One question I forgot to ask is how this is being done off of a Native American reservation. Has Pennsylvania decided to incur the wrath of the federal government and ammend it's state consitution, or is there a loophole about the graves of our forefathers?
If this is being done on an Indian reservation it is likely not much will be able to be done. Gambling is legal on all indian reservations to my knowledge.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-23-2005, 04:44
You don't see a 'missed message' there, do you? Perhaps we should build a whore house at Pearl Harbor or an opium den on Bunker Hill? These are all money making ventures as well, are they not?
Damn why didnt I think of those?
Runs off to get up capitol.
Don - yes I believe in the consumption of alcohol and yes if my sister turned up to our mothers funeral I would be slightly miffed, initially anyway. But that only proves my point, sometimes you need to intervene in situations to make them better for all involved, sometimes you have to base your judgment on the greater good. In this case if it was making sure no alcohol was available to my sister knowing that she would turn to the drink in the light of our mother dieing, so be it. Or if it is providing a minimum wage knowing that without it the market does not provide enough for lower skilled workers, so be it. And in the case of the thread, if it involves making a law which protects areas of social / historical / military etc, importance from big business, then so be it.
The free market needs twisting and turning so it fits everyone and benefits all. I guess that is why I am fundamentally on the left.
Im all for the free market- and I'm all for the free market forces stopping this. People who feel strongly about this need to make their voices heard and let the town and company involved know that this will not be in their best interests.
A market fundamentally determined by demand and supply... Is not going to care really about a few locals not wanting it. In fact more locals probably would relish it as the opportunities for their own business' / jobs will grow. What market forces is there available to stop it happening?
Don Corleone
06-23-2005, 04:54
Slightly miffed? Initially? Come on, be honest... You'd be pissed (edit: American usage. Tranlation: Knackered as all bloody hell). And you'd have every right to be that way. But you wouldn't need to go lobby and pass a law outlawing alcohol consumption prior to visiting a funeral, would you?
See Jag, there's this little thing called FoxNews.com. And another little thing called the DrudgeReport. We raving lunatic Christian Right over here can do one thing for ourselves, and that's organize, probably better than any labor union ever thought of doing. All it takes is one headline on DrudgeReport, with the development company's email, which I'm desparately trying to get my hands on, and free market forces will do the rest. We don't need laws to tell us what is right or what is decent. I feel sorry for you, because I guess you do.
A market fundamentally determined by demand and supply... Is not going to care really about a few locals not wanting it. In fact more locals probably would relish it as the opportunities for their own business' / jobs will grow. What market forces is there available to stop it happening?These things don't happen in a vacuum- particularly not in small scale situations such as this. Yes, some local business leaders are in favor of it for economic reasons, but many citizens and history buffs are opposed because they don't want a casino cheapening their town and the battlefield. Bad word of mouth, protests, boycotts, ect. can all severly impact or even kill a business. So, if people (like me) don't want the casino just get the word out to enough like minded people and you can have an impact.
Additionally, if enough locals can convince their city government not to allow zoning for the casino, I dont have a big problem with that. I don't usually mind local decisions being made locally. They're better suited to do so than federal governments, but it's probably not even neccessary.
Don -
I think you overplay the free market forces you state and the strength of your comrades - ~D - morals in terms of the public good.
I would probably only be pissed as my initial reaction because I am a pretty rational, reasoning bloke and when thinking on reflection; my sister has pretty good reasons to feel shitty if her mother has just died. People handle things differently. So you see, I never stated a ban on alcohol before funerals should be in order, merely in this case better reasoning should prevail and my sister shouldn't be able to get her hands on alcohol. An objection stating, 'what constitutes better reasoning, surely your sisters reasoning is best for her', is a fair argument - one which I presume most on the right would hold - but there are replies to that, and the situation does dictate that something should be done for the best interests of all.
The left never goes into wanting changes to the market without thinking things through and realising that it needs to be done with care, merely that something does need to be done. The right unfortunately in most cases, realises that something very well ought to be done, but for a number of reasons do not act and leave the status quo.
There are a number of cases similar to this Gettysburg one which occur due to the market not being socially right or desirable, but because it is seen as to be a 'necessary evil' or because it does not cause enough headlines on Fox News or the Drudge report, it goes without any acknowledgement from your comrades. It is the reason why you need government intervention. Plus most of your fellow comrades don't even care about some of the market failures anyway.
Additionally, if enough locals can convince their city government not to allow zoning for the casino, I dont have a big problem with that. I don't usually mind local decisions being made locally. They're better suited to do so than federal governments, but it's probably not even neccessary.
Thank you, there is hope for you yet! Government intervention! Remember I am a HUGE advocate of a federal, strong local govt system, so the decisions being made at local level are all good to me. However I simply acknowledge that you also need a small yet very active central govt for national issues where the market fails - like the national economy.
In situations like this the best way to improve the market failure and solve the problems caused by the market is government intervention, surely if you see that here you can see it applies to other situations as well?
Don Corleone
06-23-2005, 05:20
No need to enshrine any more futility into law. Jag, your notice and appreciation is noted, but I'm sure there's better ways of dealing with the situation.
I would suggest we discover who "Chance Enterprises Incorporated" is. We use the Freedom of Information Act to discover what their other holdings are, then we send a targeted mailing to any member of our target audience: on the RNC mailing list (costs $4k to get it) or any person south of the Mason Dixon line, east of the Missisippi. They may not have a lot of money, but they do have a lot of ink, and a lot of vitrol.
Gregoshi
06-23-2005, 07:11
What I don't get is why they think people coming to visit the battlefield, probably with family, are going to want to gamble while they are there. "Wow Johnny. The view from Little Round Top is something, isn't it? Okay, let's go hit the slots!" Yeah, right. The town is rural and almost everything revolves around the battlefield. Almost. There is a Boyds (teddy) Bear outlet near the battlefield and a "little pony" farm/show nearby. When I was a kid, there was also an amusement park too, but that has gone out of business. Maybe this casino will tie in with the Eisenhower Farm which butts right up against the battlefield. If you recall, General Eisenhower took that big gamble on D-Day in WW2. ~:rolleyes:
On a side note, I was at the nearby battle reenactment when the tower came down. The reenactors lined up about a dozen cannons and pointed them at the tower. The top of the tower was just visible as there was a small hill between it and the farm where they were holding the reenactment. Anyway, they did some calculations on the distance to the tower and the velocity of a cannonball to determine how long it would take for it to reach the tower. They monitored the countdown and fired off a cannon volley at the appropriate time prior to demolition so that the imaginary cannon shot would arrive the tower at T minus zero. And the tower went down.
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