OiM Balcan factions

[cegorach]

Here are my ideas for OiM balcan factions:

I ask Romanian members to check them, correct what they like or give me more ideas. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Quote
First. You should understand that it was incredibly hard to create those lists - they are supposed to be quite realistic and useful for the mod at the same time, so sometimes I made decisions you can disagree with. Anyway it is your mod, so you can choose what to add and what to remove, but I really put some effort in creating these 3 unit rosters.

Second. Often there is an incredible variaty of weaponry amongst on 'unit' - they were using all manner of weapons - spears, sabres, lances, shields, bows, pistols, arquebusiers - sometimes all of them !

Third. The names are in Romanian, but there is a problem that sometimes the same unit is described with several names at the same time, with a name of a completely different unit or even with a name which seems created by the guy who described it. Terrible !

All right let's start.

Generic

Wallachian and Moldavian ( + possibly Transylvanian) bodyguards were called Boieri de Casa or Copii de Casa.

THey were better armed than ordinary Boieri, so should be armed with lances, sabres and should be WELL armoured and possibly with shields as well. It is the only one truly generic unit I can propose.



WALLACHIA

The faction is famous of its light cavalry, but was using some quite interesting units of infantry as well ( including Transylvanian Haiduks).

The majority of its armies were made of cavalry.

Cavalry:

Boieri ( Wallachian Boyars - if you preferr the names in English - Boieri is the general term in Romanian),

Spear was the favourite weapon of the Wallachians, so their Boieri should use:

- lances ( in Polish called 'oseka') - with a hook added from one side - it was used to unhorse enemies even after the initial charge, a very good weapon,
- sabres,

- shields - usually curved as the Rac, Hungarian Hussars etc.

- armour - light, they were the elite so could afford it.

Curteni

These were retainers of the Boyars. Should be armed in the same way, but without armour.

Calarisi

These were border guards. They should use either bow and spear or just bow and sabre. They were proffessional soldiers supposed to guard all the entries to Wallachia, especially the bridges/crosses over Danube.


Infantry:

Wasn't numerous, but should be there.

Strajeri

It was MOUNTED INFANTRY, but it is impossible to recreate their power correctly, unfortunatelly.

So they should be treated as infantry.

Armed with sabres and bows.

NOTE - sometimes they are called Seimeni or Voinici - I am not sure which name is correct, though.


Dorobanti

Guardians of the passes in Carpathia mountains.

Armed with double-handed axes and bows or arquebuses. In my opinion they should get the arquebuses to show that they were an elite unit.

Should be able to hide everywhere, in my opinion, because they usually were used to attack enemy from behind or to ambush him

++++ additional units++++++

Haiduks and Transylvanian Szekely - described later.


MOLDAVIA

In later XVIth century it was quite poor country and its army was much worse than during the reign of Stefan the Great.
For this reason their cavalry should be less numerous.

Cavalry:

Boieri ( Moldavian Boyars)

Moldavian armies were always using a large number of archers, for this reason their Boieri should use:

- sabres,
- bows,
+ armour - I don't think they should use shields.

Curteni and Strajeri ( this infantry) should use the same equipment as the Wallachians - in fact these units should be SHARED by the both factions

Calarisi

Moldavian Calarisi should use sabres and bows and no spears in my opinion.

Infantry:

Razesi

These were landowning peasants who provided the armies of Stefan the Great with a large nymber of willing to fight soldiers, however in later years their number was much smaller and their weapons were worse as well.

They should be armed with spears only, but should use normal, square formation.

Tarani also called Judete ( different source)

Peasantsa called to arms. Should use scythes and appear in large units, horde formation. Morale slightly higher than of the average peasantry.

++++++ additional units++++

+ Haiduks,

+ Tatars - the army of Moldavia was using a large number of those - from Budhak horde,

+ Cossacks - your choice which ones.

TRANSYLVANIA

Richer, more western and Hungarian-Romanian faction, sharing some units, but not all.

Boieri

Transylvanian Boyars were much more western in appearance.

These should use PISTOLS and sabres with usual armour as well. Possibly it is not completely realistic, but will give some flavour to the game.

Hungarian Hussars

The 'core' and the majority of the Tansylvanian armies.

Weaponry:
- lance ( 3 meters, hollow, but wasn't so stiff as the Husaria's so could BEND - I am not sure if it is possible to recreate it or if it is even worth trying),
- sabre,
- shield with wing,
- armour and helmet.

You can see it in Polish Armies plate 1 - Pskow 1581 - should be good enough.

Szekely

Szekels were both cavalry and infantry, but it seems more realistic to make them as cavalry.

Armed with spears and axes ( similar to Polish Pancerni in later period - called 'nadziak') + shields and no real armour.

Infantry:

Haiduks

There is plenty of information in Polish roster. HUngarian Haiduks should wear different uniforms and use larger numbers in units. You can give them slightly better close combat capabilities, but it is not so important.

Saxon Militia

Transylvanian Germans were called 'Saxons'.

They provided Transylvanians with reliable infantry - usually town militia.

Should be halberdiers in armour and morions.

++++++++ additionally++++++

Cossacks - your choice,

+ western mercenaries - pikemen, musketeers etc,
+ sometimes even Poles, but I can't suggest anything.

NOTES

ALL cavalry units should get bonus fighting in snow and good stamina ( hardy),

ALL infantry should be experts in hiding in woods, be able to hide in long grass and have bonus when fighting in snow or in woods.

UNIFORMS

Thre were almost none really uniformed units - except Haiduks, Saxon Militia and possibly the Hussars, but there are some features useful to prepare all the models and skins:

- beards - all Wallachians were growing these - possibly it was popular amongst Moldavians and Transylvanians as well,
- large fur caps - the Wallachian cavalryman from POlish Armies ( plate - the siege of Danzig) is a good example,
- skeletons, skulls, devils images on shields were popular amongst the Wallachians - possibly amongst other two as well,

LINK

You know it http://pubwww.srce.hr/husar/

but I want to have it in one place.

I will upgrade the rosters with more suggestions, but rather no more units will be added.

Regards Cegorach ~;)

[cegorach]

Just to make sure you know. The mod starts in 1569 ~;)

[Cronos Impera]

Brilliant representation of Romanian culture and social realities during 1569.....You have proven that there are perspectives for a Romanian faction. Suggestion: Wallachian ruler (Mihai Voievod), Transylvanian ruler ( the Bathory family), Moldavian ruler (the Musat dynasty, Simion Movila). Romanian factions should have close ties with Mantua, Tosca, Ferrara, Poland and Austria as part of The Holy League.Theese ties should bring some cannons in the crpatho-danubiano-pontic space.

[edyzmedieval]

Cego,

Historical facts:

- In Wallachia we have Mihai Viteazul who unified the country for one year, from 1600-1601

- In Transilvania, we have the Hungarian rule, from the 1400ds we have for example, Mathas Corvin and Iancu of Hunedoara ( I can give you a picture of the Huniads castle, very impressive)

- In Moldavia, we have the end of the rule of Stephen the Great

Unit types:

Wallachia

Plentiful horsemen and archers.

Boyars - Boieri - leaders of the administrative stuff and also the best and most powerful units of the Wallachians. They used:
- Bow( not very often)
- Sword( they used it, especially the Voievode, because he almost always engaged in close combat)
-Armour, light and heavy(the Voievode)

Archers - Don't forget to add them, they were very numerous.

Strajeri - The translation of "Strajeri" is guard or watchmen( a sta de straja = to stay on guard). They quite rarely seen the battlefield because they guarded and stayed in the castles. They were the watchmen of the castles. They were armed with bows and spears.

Curteni - means "Men of the Court", they accompanied the nobles on the battlefield as squires, sometimes participated in battles as light infantry.

Haiduks - Only for Moldavia


Moldavia

Plentiful peasantry and archers, many tartar horsemen( Kiev and Basarabia was full of Tartars)

They were formed mainly of peasantry, and had very reduced contigents of very powerful soldiers, only the Boyars. Also, many unit types like the Wallachians.

Haiduks - Haiduks were the free men of the Moldavian society who were wanted by the local chief and good soldiers although they didn't fight( they fought with the militias of the chief)


Hunters - Gunpowder men, they were evoked in the epic " Sobieski and the Romanians". Sobieski , the Polish King, invaded Moldavia and sieged a castle. Defending them were only 25 Hunters. Many polish soldiers died, and under 10 men survived when the Poles entered the castle. Sobieski wanted to kill them because only a handful of men resisted his great army. Fortunately, his personal advisor told him that they only did they job and so Sobieski was impressed and the Poles left Moldavia.

Razesi - Landowning peasants who were willing to fight and young also.

Judete - means province

Hopefully Cegorach this will help. PM me if you need any help!!!

Cheers! ~:cheers:

[cegorach]

Archers - Don't forget to add them, they were very numerous.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Horse or foot ?
How were they called in Romanian ?

Strajeri - The translation of "Strajeri" is guard or watchmen( a sta de straja = to stay on guard). They quite rarely seen the battlefield because they guarded and stayed in the castles. They were the watchmen of the castles. They were armed with bows and spears.

>>>>>>>>>> According all sources I have they were cavalry or rather mounted infantry, am I wrong ?

Curteni - means "Men of the Court", they accompanied the nobles on the battlefield as squires, sometimes participated in battles as light infantry.

>>>>>>>>> So they were not cavalrymen ?

Haiduks - Only for Moldavia

>>>>>>>>>> I remember though that when the Ottomans were invading Wallachia in late XVIth century ( around 1595) Wallachian army used numerous Haiduks and decent number of cannons - this massive firepower annihilated Ottoman Akinji cavalry which was never used after this war.

So were these guys mercenaries, Haiduks or some local guys - I have read that the Wallachians despised gunpowder weapons, so I believe they were mercenary Haiduks from Transylvania - again, am I wrong ?







Moldavia

who were wanted by the local chief and good soldiers although they didn't fight( they fought with the militias of the chief)

>>>>>>>>>>> I am confused ~:confused: were they fighting or not ? Were they from Moldavia or from Transylvania/other place ( Cossacks ?) ?


Hunters - Gunpowder men, they were evoked in the epic " Sobieski and the Romanians". Sobieski , the Polish King, invaded Moldavia and sieged a castle. Defending them were only 25 Hunters. Many polish soldiers died, and under 10 men survived when the Poles entered the castle. Sobieski wanted to kill them because only a handful of men resisted his great army. Fortunately, his personal advisor told him that they only did they job and so Sobieski was impressed and the Poles left Moldavia.

>>>>>>>>> Interesting. What should they be called ? I need Romanian name again.
BTW I would be greateful for singular and plural names in Romanian for all the units I proposed - some are correct I believe, but I want to make sure it is all right. PMTW mod uses names in national languages so it is essential to have them all written CORRECTLY. :bow:



Judete - means province

>>>>>>>> So Tarani would be a better name ?

Hopefully Cegorach this will help. PM me if you need any help!!!

>>>>>>>>>> I will, thanks.

I actually need some information about possible office titles (for MTW Pike & Musket mod) and historical heroes/anti-heroes useful for MTW edition of PMTW, OiM mod and RTW edition of PMTW.

Currently I have only Stephen the Great ( Moldavia starts with him in early era of PMTW 1.0) and Michael the Brave - I need more - up to 30 !!! ~D

Regards Cegorach ~:cheers:

[cegorach]

Please try the link http://pubwww.srce.hr/husar/
and tell me which images would be the best for these units I described. I would be greateful - because we need accurate images for RTW graphics :bow:

[cegorach]

I have found something Strajeri de Garda - it seems that only these soldiers were used to guard Wallachian palaces/castles and original Strajeri were horse infantrymen.

Any comments ? ~:)

[edyzmedieval]

>>>>>>>>>>>> Horse or foot ?
How were they called in Romanian ?

>>>>>>>>>> According all sources I have they were cavalry or rather mounted infantry, am I wrong ?


>>>>>>>>> So they were not cavalrymen ?

>>>>>>>>>> I remember though that when the Ottomans were invading Wallachia in late XVIth century ( around 1595) Wallachian army used numerous Haiduks and decent number of cannons - this massive firepower annihilated Ottoman Akinji cavalry which was never used after this war.

So were these guys mercenaries, Haiduks or some local guys - I have read that the Wallachians despised gunpowder weapons, so I believe they were mercenary Haiduks from Transylvania - again, am I wrong ?







Moldavia

who were wanted by the local chief and good soldiers although they didn't fight( they fought with the militias of the chief)

>>>>>>>>>>> I am confused ~:confused: were they fighting or not ? Were they from Moldavia or from Transylvania/other place ( Cossacks ?) ?

>>>>>>>>> Interesting. What should they be called ? I need Romanian name again.
BTW I would be greateful for singular and plural names in Romanian for all the units I proposed - some are correct I believe, but I want to make sure it is all right. PMTW mod uses names in national languages so it is essential to have them all written CORRECTLY. :bow:

>>>>>>>> So Tarani would be a better name ?

>>>>>>>>>> I will, thanks.

I actually need some information about possible office titles (for MTW Pike & Musket mod) and historical heroes/anti-heroes useful for MTW edition of PMTW, OiM mod and RTW edition of PMTW.

Currently I have only Stephen the Great ( Moldavia starts with him in early era of PMTW 1.0) and Michael the Brave - I need more - up to 30 !!! ~D

Regards Cegorach ~:cheers:


Dear Cego,

Here are the answers:

Arcasi - Romanian name for archers and they were foot...

The Curteni were mounted soldiers but they hadn't the same skill and power as the Boyars.... They were medium cavalry....

As far as I know, Strajeri are only foot soldiers....

Haiduks are light cavalry...They sometimes used the bow but very often they used what they could find, especially gunpowder stuff... Pistols especially... But they were devastating.... They used tacticts like the Mongols: Hit and run....

Those hunters were called - Plaiesi -

Yeah... Tarani is the perfect way to describe peasants... Or Jobbagy, because the Romanian name - iobagi - means also peasant....


About the leaders, I'm digging up to give you info....

Hopefully it will help!!!
Cheers!!! ~:cheers:

[edyzmedieval]

Dear Cego,here's some more info I gathered that might help you...

Pandours - Musket men, in romanian - panduri - they were the best shooters in Romanian armies....

At that website you gave me, check at Horse and Musket and at the Pandours 1 and 2 are perfect, especially 2.

For Haiduks - check at Pike and Shot, the Croatian Light Carabinier 1640.. the haiduks look like this only without some stuff like that thing on the head... And instead of the long musket, only a pistol...

I'm checking for more info and checking the pictures and I'm gonna post the feedback.... Hopefully I will find a website which will give you more info....

[DukeofSerbia]

I am shocked!!! :furious3:

Hajduci (hajduks) were Serbian warriors who fought against Ottomans. Traditionaly they gathered in 6th May (St George - Djurdjevdan on Serbian) and they left 8th of November (St Demetrous - Mitrovdan on Serbian). Their chief was called harambasha. They were some kind of guerylla units who attacked Turkish trade caravanes, garrisones at roads etc.

The most famous Serbian hajduk was hajduk Veljko who was one of Serbian military commanders in First Serbian Rebellion against Ottomans (1804-1813) who fought in Eastern Serbia (Timocka krajina).

Word hajduk had arab-turkish origin and means thief.

When Haji Mustafa was killed in 1801 in Serbia came dahije and huge number of Serbs went in hajduks.

In Serbian tradition we have a lot of epics about hajduks who were national heroes who fought agains Ottoman represion.

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=DukeofSerbia]I am shocked!!! :furious3:

I am shocked because of your shock ~;)

Sorry, but Haiduks were present in all balcan armies + in Poland. In fact the most famous Haiduks were from Hungary.

So please - leave this agression for other topics, ok ? ~;)

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=edyzmedieval]Dear Cego,

Here are the answers:

Arcasi - Romanian name for archers and they were foot...

The Curteni were mounted soldiers but they hadn't the same skill and power as the Boyars.... They were medium cavalry....

As far as I know, Strajeri are only foot soldiers....

Haiduks are light cavalry...They sometimes used the bow but very often they used what they could find, especially gunpowder stuff... Pistols especially... But they were devastating.... They used tacticts like the Mongols: Hit and run....

Those hunters were called - Plaiesi -

Yeah... Tarani is the perfect way to describe peasants... Or Jobbagy, because the Romanian name - iobagi - means also peasant....

>>>>>>>>>>> All right I will add Arcasi, Plaiesi, Strajeri will be infantrymen as planned, because it is not possible to dismount anything in RTW the way it was possible in MTW...

THe Haiduks - well, I can bet they were infantrymen with gunpowder weaponry. You must be mistaken or there is a wider meaning of the term in Romania. THey will be infantrymen for sure.
Jobbagy - Tarani is better I think. The word Jobbagy is used in Hungarian as well, and I need something more Romanian ~;)

The leaders would be good... :bow:

Regards Cegorach ~;)

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=edyzmedieval]Dear Cego,here's some more info I gathered that might help you...

Pandours - Musket men, in romanian - panduri - they were the best shooters in Romanian armies....

At that website you gave me, check at Horse and Musket and at the Pandours 1 and 2 are perfect, especially 2.

I didn't know that the Pandours were present in Romanian armies. I will add them as a very advanced unit for later period of the game ( after 'the Marian reforms'). It is good that you give the information about the images - it will really quicken the process of preparing the Danube factions for OiM mod and some of these units will appear in PMTW for MTW and RTW as well ~:cheers: ~D




TO ALL OF YOU

You might be interested in playing PMTW 1.0 for MTW VI - this is earliy release of the mod ( so none new graphics yet) , but it will give you the basic knowledge of my approach to the balcan factions. :bow:

Check PMTW downloads thread for more ~;)

[edyzmedieval]

[QUOTE=edyzmedieval]Dear Cego,

Here are the answers:

Arcasi - Romanian name for archers and they were foot...

The Curteni were mounted soldiers but they hadn't the same skill and power as the Boyars.... They were medium cavalry....

As far as I know, Strajeri are only foot soldiers....

Haiduks are light cavalry...They sometimes used the bow but very often they used what they could find, especially gunpowder stuff... Pistols especially... But they were devastating.... They used tacticts like the Mongols: Hit and run....

Those hunters were called - Plaiesi -

Yeah... Tarani is the perfect way to describe peasants... Or Jobbagy, because the Romanian name - iobagi - means also peasant....

>>>>>>>>>>> All right I will add Arcasi, Plaiesi, Strajeri will be infantrymen as planned, because it is not possible to dismount anything in RTW the way it was possible in MTW...

THe Haiduks - well, I can bet they were infantrymen with gunpowder weaponry. You must be mistaken or there is a wider meaning of the term in Romania. THey will be infantrymen for sure.
Jobbagy - Tarani is better I think. The word Jobbagy is used in Hungarian as well, and I need something more Romanian ~;)

The leaders would be good... :bow:

Regards Cegorach ~;)

Dear Cego,

In Romania, haiduks were light cavalry... I have found also the explanation of Haiduks in Romanian - Men who lived in the 16th,17th,18th and they were "out-of-law" - Rarely Haiduks fought on foot....

Cheers! ~:cheers:

[edyzmedieval]

[QUOTE=edyzmedieval]Dear Cego,here's some more info I gathered that might help you...

Pandours - Musket men, in romanian - panduri - they were the best shooters in Romanian armies....

At that website you gave me, check at Horse and Musket and at the Pandours 1 and 2 are perfect, especially 2.

I didn't know that the Pandours were present in Romanian armies. I will add them as a very advanced unit for later period of the game ( after 'the Marian reforms'). It is good that you give the information about the images - it will really quicken the process of preparing the Danube factions for OiM mod and some of these units will appear in PMTW for MTW and RTW as well ~:cheers: ~D




TO ALL OF YOU

You might be interested in playing PMTW 1.0 for MTW VI - this is earliy release of the mod ( so none new graphics yet) , but it will give you the basic knowledge of my approach to the balcan factions. :bow:

Check PMTW downloads thread for more ~;)

Dear Cego,

Exactly what I was gonna say to you. Pandours started their existence in the 18th century.

Cheers! ~:cheers:

[cegorach]

In Romania, haiduks were light cavalry... I have found also the explanation of Haiduks in Romanian - Men who lived in the 16th,17th,18th and they were "out-of-law" - Rarely Haiduks fought on foot....

Good it is finally explained... ~:)

Waiting for more information.

Regards Cegorach :book:

[cegorach]

I consider the Danube factions' rosters ready. I only need more images.

The thread will be used for MOntenegro and Balcan allies of the Ottomans. :bow:

[Cronos Impera]

Sorry Cegorach1, but I don't have Viking Invasion to run Pike and Musket properly. Can you post here, please some screenshots?

[cegorach]

Sorry Cegorach1, but I don't have Viking Invasion to run Pike and Musket properly. Can you post here, please some screenshots?

What do you need ?

[Cronos Impera]

Could you post some moldavian units and the factions description?
Thanks.

[cegorach]

I will do it later when I finally add all the new units to the mod ~;)

[Forgus]

Please don't try to make Transsylvania a Romanian like fraction. In fact this is the only real Hungarian fraction. By that time it was mostly populated by Hungarians and Germans, save for the southern parts. The political and military rule was based on the alliance of the three nations of Transsylvania, the Hungarians, the Székelys (Hungarians with right of self governance for military duty for a fixed period) and the Germans. Militarily the elected Prince was in command of the regular Transsylvanian troops ( heavily financed but not contributed by the German Citizens), for a limited period (only abroad) the Székelys plus (mostly) hired Hajdús from Eastern Hungary and the Partium (no-one's land of some counties between the kingdom of Hungary, Transsylvania and the Turkish occupied lands of central Hungary centered around Debrecen (should be made rebel province). There were no boyars (no romanian nobles in Transsylvania, no pandurs, or anything like that.
The Székelys living in mountainous parts were mostly (say 80%) infantry, while the mounted Székelys (lófős) were in command, or formed smaller units. The regular army had more expensive armoured Hussars (lighter than those in Poland and definately without the cool wings) plus musketmen, and other infantry. The Hajdús were light infantry or cavalry (about half) little or no armour and somewhat less organized I would suggest

Székely talpasok - light inf
Székely lovasság - light cavalry
Hajdúk - light infantry
Lovas hajdúk - light cavalry
Puskások - Musketeers
Talpasok - medium infantry
Huszárok - Medium cavalry
Pattanytúsok - arty
Szász polgárőrök - medium inf, armoured
Peasants or irregulars

If you wist these can be expanded a bit.

[cegorach]

Thanks for your information. For ages I was waiting for someone like you m8 ! ~;)

Very good that you added the names in Magyar ( sp?).

I was aware that the Transylvanian people were Hungarians at that time - Stefan Batory - one of the greatest Polish kings and Hungarian duke was Transylvanian after all.

BTW - can you translate the name in Hungarian - Transylvanian Haiduk Guards - both plural and singular. :bow: :bow:

If you could provide similar names for the units you have presented I would be greateful too - singular and plural :bow:

Have a look in XVI-XVII mod thread as well. If you still like MTW you might add something.

For both engines ( MTW and RTW) I would need more information as well -

office titles ( in Hungarian), famour/infamous heroes/losers for Transylvania after 1480, possibly some images as well.

BTW - the Transylvanian Boyars appear in many sources, but none is Hungarian, in fact it seems that Hungarians do not visit forums like this very often and even if I am Polish ( you know 'brother folk of Hungarians ~D ') I have no idea about Hungarian language and Transylvanian/Hungarian army after 1480 ( and especially after 1568) is almost a mystery to me - honestly I know better Moldavians and Wallachians or even Portuguese and Danes better than Hungarians, which is a pity.

Polish sources for example are rather dissappointing - there is almost nothing about Rakoczy's army in 1657...

More later if you are willing to help more. ~;)

Regards Cegorach ~;)

[Forgus]

Shure, I help I already have done some reseach on Transsylvanian armies that may change the unit list:

Gyalogszékely Pl. székelyek - light inf armed with spears/swords/axes/sometimes muskets/bows

Székely lófő Pl: lófők - medium light cavalry with sabres or lances

Székely veres drabant Pl: drabantok - Red clad musketmen recruited amongst the Székelys

Hajdú Talpas Pl. talpasok -light infantry armed with sabres, no armour

Hajdú puskás pl. - puskások medium infantry no armour, musket sabre

Lovas hajdú pl. hajdúk - light cavalry sabre and pistol no armour

Kék drabant pl. drabantok - medium infantry musketmen good morale wearing blue
Huszár pl. huszárok - Medium cavalry with light armour, using picks, sabres and pistols good morale

Válogatott koplyás - chosen lancers light cavalry good morale no armour shield

Pattanytús pl. pattanytúsok - arty

Szász polgárőrör pl. polgárőrök - medium inf, armoured Saxon town watch

Kék-zöld drabant pl. drabantok - musketmen raised by the Saxon towns may be excluded. Must wear blue-green uniform

[Forgus]

Thanks for your information. For ages I was waiting for someone like you m8 ! ~;)

Very good that you added the names in Magyar ( sp?).

I was aware that the Transylvanian people were Hungarians at that time - Stefan Batory - one of the greatest Polish kings and Hungarian duke was Transylvanian after all.

BTW - can you translate the name in Hungarian - Transylvanian Haiduk Guards - both plural and singular. :bow: :bow:

If you could provide similar names for the units you have presented I would be greateful too - singular and plural :bow:

Have a look in XVI-XVII mod thread as well. If you still like MTW you might add something.

For both engines ( MTW and RTW) I would need more information as well -

office titles ( in Hungarian), famour/infamous heroes/losers for Transylvania after 1480, possibly some images as well.

BTW - the Transylvanian Boyars appear in many sources, but none is Hungarian, in fact it seems that Hungarians do not visit forums like this very often and even if I am Polish ( you know 'brother folk of Hungarians ~D ') I have no idea about Hungarian language and Transylvanian/Hungarian army after 1480 ( and especially after 1568) is almost a mystery to me - honestly I know better Moldavians and Wallachians or even Portuguese and Danes better than Hungarians, which is a pity.

Polish sources for example are rather dissappointing - there is almost nothing about Rakoczy's army in 1657...

More later if you are willing to help more. ~;)

Regards Cegorach ~;)

I can translate Transylvanian Haiduk guards - Erdélyi hajdúk, or Erdélyi hajdú őrök, but tere is not much sense in it, there was not a thig like that. The hajdús came mostly from Eastern Hungary and were wandering mercenaries fighting mostly for the king of Hungary (at that period the Habsburgs) or for the princes of Transylvania, sometimes even abroad or in extreme cases even for the Turks. I would suggest to say simply Hajdú.

Shurely I can take a look at the Hungarian units too, I have more resources on them. Wher can they be found?

What titles do you need? military? OK. Hadnagy is usually second in command, kapitány is captain, ezredkapitány is major, generális is general.
What heroes do you mean? Soldiers? Princes? I give you the list odf princes, the more importat ones marked:

1541-1551 János Zsigmond (son of Zápolya János king of Hungary he wore the title Herceg (prince) the later princes were elected and had the title "fejedelem"
1551-1556 I. Ferdinánd magyar király - king of Hungary and Austria
1556-1571 János Zsigmond
1571-1576 Báthory István
1576-1581 Báthory Kristóf
1581-1598 Báthory Zsigmond
1598-1605 Báthory Endre
1598-1605 Mihály vajda - he was Romanian and seized the throne for half a year through treachery after civil war
1598-1605 Rudolf király king of Hungary and Austria
1605-1606 Bocskai István
1606-1608 Rákóczi Zsigmond
1608-1613 Báthory Gábor - villain
1613-1629 Bethlen Gábor
1629-1630 Brandenburgi Katalin
1630-1648 I. Rákóczi György
1648-1660 II. Rákóczi György
1658-1659 Rhédei Ferenc
1660 Barcsai Ákos
1661-1662 Kemény János
1662-1690 I. Apafi Mihály
1690 II. Apafi Mihály
1690 Thököly Imre
1691-1705 I. Lipót magyar király King of Hungary and Austria
1705-1711 II. Rákóczi Ferenc

Are you mentioning that Rákóczy who took Krakow but the Swedes let him down and almost all his army fell captive of the Khan of Crimea?

I just read a book about that. It had some details.

What else do you need?

[Cronos Impera]

By the runes, Transylvania wasn't a hungarian faction at all. In fact Iancu of Hunedoara and Mathias Corvin ware of romanian catholic origins. Magyars lived mainly in today Târgu Mureş, Arad, Harghita and Covasna. Moldavia and Wallachia ware founded by romanian nobles from the Fagaras region ( Negru Vodă ) and Maramureş ( Bogdan şi Dragoş I). Transylvannia was an Orthodox romanian province. The historical religious issue was about the acceptance of ortodoxy by the magyar rulers. The romanian nobles ware forced to convert to catholicism in order to keep their rights. In order to control the romanian majority, magyars colonized the Transylvannian plateau with saşi ( germans) and secui ( a population related to the magyars). Romanians formed the majority in Transylvannia, with a minority of magyar and german colonists. Iancu of Hunedoara, the saviour of Hungary was a romanian noble ( roman-catholic but still romanian).
Ave Cronos!

[Forgus]

The sad thing is that you still believe this... Don't be bothered by the facts... Creative history rules.

[Dromikaites]

By the runes, Transylvania wasn't a hungarian faction at all.
I beg to disagree - the Transylvanian army for the period should be Hungarian. While it's true the Romanians made the majority of the population at any moment in time, the structure of the army was Hungarian-style and not Wallachian or Moldavian-style for the simple reason most of the Romanians were serfs.


In fact Iancu of Hunedoara and Mathias Corvin ware of romanian catholic origins. Magyars lived mainly in today Târgu Mureş, Arad, Harghita and Covasna. Moldavia and Wallachia ware founded by romanian nobles from the Fagaras region ( Negru Vodă ) and Maramureş ( Bogdan şi Dragoş I).
The fact few Romanian noblemen like Iancu de Hunedoara/Hunyadi Janos or Pavel Chinezul (don't know the Hungarian version of his name) made it through the highest ranks of the Hungarian/Transylvanian army doesn't change the fundamental structure of the Transylvanian army, which was Hungarian-style. Besides, Mathias Corvin is as much of Romanian origin as he is of Hungarian origin since his mother was Hungarian...


Transylvannia was an Orthodox romanian province. The historical religious issue was about the acceptance of ortodoxy by the magyar rulers. The romanian nobles ware forced to convert to catholicism in order to keep their rights. In order to control the romanian majority, magyars colonized the Transylvannian plateau with saşi ( germans) and secui ( a population related to the magyars). Romanians formed the majority in Transylvannia, with a minority of magyar and german colonists. Iancu of Hunedoara, the saviour of Hungary was a romanian noble ( roman-catholic but still romanian).
Ave Cronos!Yeah, but all this hasn't really anything to do with the mod Pike&Musket. What counts here is how the Transylvanian armies looked liked and how the units were called and, for historic accuracy the army has to look Hungarian and the names of the units should be Hungarian too.

[edyzmedieval]

The sad thing is that you still believe this... Don't be bothered by the facts... Creative history rules.

Romanians and Hungarians don't get very well, you know ~;)

For the PMTW period, they were Hungarians and had the Hungarian army type. But Cegorach, you should make the province very unstable, because of many revolts of the Romanians, because the Hungarians forced the Romanians to convert to lutheranism, catholicism or calvinism.

So, you should split it into 5 or 6 religiouns, because Hereticism and even Paganism was present, but a very small population followed these religions.

[edyzmedieval]

Also Cegorach, need any more historical help about Wallachia and Moldavia, just yell.

Cheers! ~:cheers:

[Dromikaites]

1598-1605 Báthory Endre
1598-1605 Mihály vajda - he was Romanian and seized the throne for half a year through treachery after civil war

The accurate period of time for Mihai Viteazul's rule over Transylvania (the Romanian name for Mihaly Vajda) is 1599 - 1601. He ruled over Wallachia from 1593 to 1601, over Wallachia and Transylvania from 1599 to 1601 and over Wallachia, Transylvania and Moldova from 1600 to 1601. But since the fact he ruled over the 3 countries cannot be portrayed in any way in the mod, the closest thing to historical accuracy would be to have him rule Wallachia and let Transylvania ruled by the Bathory family. He'll rule over the 3 countries in the mod if Wallachia manages to conquer them in the game :)

As for Bathory Endre, he got killed in 1599 by the Szekelys while he was trying to escape to Moldova.

As for how Michael the Brave/Mihai Viteazul/Mihaly vajda got to rule Transylvania, I'd disagree with Forgus' version. The Wallachian king was at war with the Turks and the new Transylvanian prince Bathory Endre although originally a cardinal from Poland wanted to side with the Ottomans.

Before going too quickly to label Bathory Endre a traitor to the Christian cause I'd like to point out that the Christianity at that time was divided over the issue of fighting the Ottomans. The Austrians, the Spaniards and some Italian states were at war with the Ottomans while England and Poland were their allies. England was supporting the Ottoman Empire because of its rivalry with Spain and Poland because its rivalry with Austria. So when Bathory Endre got the Transylvanian throne comming from Poland, he only followed the Polish foreign policy.

Back to the original story of how Michael the Brave got Transylvania. Wallachia was allied to Austria and so had been Transylvania under the previous prince, Bathory Zsigmond (Bathory Endre's cousin). When the anti-Ottoman prince was replaced by a pro-Ottoman one, Michael understood he had a big problem on his hands. Bathory Endre was not exactly a skillful ruler and he managed to alienate quite a lot of the Transylvanian noblemen and, what was even worse, the Szekelys. The Szekelys are a Hungarian-speaking population (interestingly enough, of turkic origin) who at that time enjoyed a large autonomy in Transylvania and who were contributing with troops representing 20% to 30% of the Transylvanian army in case of war. Bathory Endre tried to curtail some of the Szekelys' autonomy and had their most important leaders killed. So the Szekelys' stance changed from allies to rebels at the worst moment for the Transylvanian prince.

The Wallachian armies crossed the Transylvanian border from two directions (south and south-east), taking Bathory Endre by surprise. The southern Wallachian force effectively cut off the western Transylvania from the rest and was threatening the capitol city of Alba Iulia. The other army, comming from south-east, prevented the Transylvanians from receiving any help from Polish-controlled Moldova. The Szekelys, who lived in a territory situated at the Transylvanian border with Moldova kept some of their forces guarding the mountain passes to prevent a Moldo-Polish intervention and joined the rest of their army to the Wallachians. The 2 Wallachian armies met near Sibiu/Hermanstadt and there came also the Transylvanians.

Sibiu/Hermanstadt was an autonomous German city nominaly under Transylvanian rule which in reality functioned like a merchant republic. The German merchants considered it is better for their business to sit and watch the battle without interfering. The Transylvanian army even though not at its full strenght (because the western troops could not join and the Szekelys were on the Wallachian side) was slightly larger (30,000 against the 25,000 Wallachians) and looked better equipped (Hungarian and Polish knights, slightly more artilery and firearms) so just as an extra insurance policy the merchants of Hermanstadt allowed a very small detachment of volunteers to join the Transylvanian army. If Michael would be victorious they'll point out that most of their force stayed within the city walls and that only some hot-headed citizens disobeyed the order of the city council. If the Transylvanians would win, the rest of the troops would probably cut the retreat of the Wallachians.

The battle started well for the Transylvanians who were also fighting on favorable ground (they have taken position on elevated ground). The first Wallachian attack was pushed back by the gunfire and the charge of the knights and degenerated in a rout which stopped only because of the personal intervention of Michael. For some unknown reason Bathory Andras refused to commit his reserves to the battle when the Transylvanians still had the advantage. Seeing that some of the Transylvanian noblemen accused him of cowardice and subsequently ordered their troops to stay away from the battle. Thus the cardinal was deprived of most of his light cavalry and the Szekely foot which had previously joined the Transylvanian army.

The Wallachian counterattack immediately after their rout probably caught the Transylvanians by surprise. Many of the Transylvanian troops had left their advantageous positions while chasing the Wallachians. To make the matter worse, Bathory Andras panicked and left the battlefield in a hurry once he saw Michael leading the charge stright in his direction. Seeing him flee made the Polish heavy cavalry decide they don't have to die for a coward leader so they regrouped and took a passive stance away from the thick of the battle. The Hungarian heavy cavalry soon followed their example. Once the knights made very clear they don't want to fight anymore and seeing that part of the Transylvanian army was ostensibly not fighting, the rest of the troops surrendered. Michael ordered his troops to refrain from slaughtering those who had thrown down their arms because he needed the Transylvanian army to fight against the Ottomans.

Why did the Transylvanians behave like that on the battlefield? Probably a lot has to do with the pro-Ottoman policy of Bathory Andras. It also has to do with the cardinal's personality flaws which made the noblemen deeply distrust and despise him. In addition to that many noblemen were protestant and they were put off by the overly-catholic cardinal. It also had to do with the fact that at the time nationality didn't really matter so there was no reason for the Transylvanian noblemen to prefer a Hungaro-Polish with serious attitude problems who was also pro-Ottoman over a Romanian who was an inspirational leader and had fought successfully against the Ottomans.

[Forgus]

Romanians and Hungarians don't get very well, you know ~;)

For the PMTW period, they were Hungarians and had the Hungarian army type. But Cegorach, you should make the province very unstable, because of many revolts of the Romanians, because the Hungarians forced the Romanians to convert to lutheranism, catholicism or calvinism.

So, you should split it into 5 or 6 religiouns, because Hereticism and even Paganism was present, but a very small population followed these religions.

This is mostly not accurate. Transylvania was the first country that declared the equal rights for all religions, and the banning of forced conversions.
It was in declared in 1586 at the national assembly in Torda.
There were no forced conversion of ortodoxes either, reformation does not work that way, you know. I agree, that ortodox romanians were poor and had no political weight, but there were no rebellions of the type you mentioned (please give us dates if you disagree) apart from the movement of the Székelys when prince János Zsigmond went to the catholic székey parts (Csík, Gyergyó) with an army to support unitarism (the prince was converted to unitarism.
Anyway, if there was forced conversion, there should have been a large Romanian calvinist or lutheran church, for the status quo remained the same for hundreds of years after the reformation. Yet, there are very few old romanian ortodox temples in the central areas, let alone calvinist ones.
I think we can assume, that the religion more or less defines etnicity: the Hungarians were the calvinists, unitarians, and catholics (part of the székelys) and for a small extent lutheran, The Saxones were lutherans, and the Romanians were orthodox.
These were the religions and instead of your suggestion Transylvania of the period was the solace of religional tolerance, and a safe haven of those seeking asylium. Of course in the age of reformation there are no longer heretics, and I haven't got the faintest idea where you get that Pagan thing? Who were the pagans?
For more info on the map of religions (and demographics) in those period see:
https://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=religtrans6fk.jpg
More or less
I know of no Romanian movements or revolts until the 18th centuryif there were some please let me knowt that i could research it....
As far as your remark: Romanians and Hungarians don't get very well, you know ~;)
I can say what they say in the town that I loved so well:
What's done is done what is won is won,
And what's lost is lost and gone forever...

But I can't understand why should some people want to redesign the past. But I don't think that we should discuss it here.

[Dromikaites]

This is mostly not accurate. Transylvania was the first country that declared the equal rights for all religions, and the banning of forced conversions.
It was in declared in 1586 at the national assembly in Torda.
True, however it did not include the Romanian Orthodox. It only applied to the 3 nations (Hungarians, Szekelys and Germans).


There were no forced conversion of ortodoxes either, reformation does not work that way, you know.
True again if we refer to the Pike&Musket period. Forced conversion took place at a later time in Transylvania and it was the work of the Austrians (the creation of the so called Greek-Catholic church).



I know of no Romanian movements or revolts until the 18th century if there were some please let me knowt that i could research it....
You are right, for the 16th and 17th century there are no major Romanian uprisings in Transylvania. The last major one before the 18th century was in 1437 (in some areas it lasted untill early 1438) and was joined in some areas also by some of the poor Hungarians. As a result the Hungarians, Germans and Szekelys signed a pact pledging mutual assistance to each other in case of danger (the so called "Unio Trium Natiorum" pact, September 16th 1437).

[Forgus]

Thanks for the story I didn't now it in such a detail. Shurely tis is not the Bathory that goes gloriously into the Hungarian annales... :-) What you say about the religius difficulties they might have been even more severe, besause the Hungarian nobles of Transylvania were overwhelmingly protestant... And they fought the catholic Székelys... Ironic, isn't it?
Some additions, not that they matter: Mihai swore felthy to Bathory in 1599...
Since he promised that he will deliver the country to the Austrians, and were unwilling to do so in 1600 he was chased out by the Austrian general Basta and the unhappy Thransylvanians in 1600.
Since Mihai was chased out from Wallachia by the Polish he ran to Vienna where once again became friends with the Austrians.
In the meantime the Transylvanians re-elected the former prince Báthory Zsigmond to the throne who was chased away by the combined forces of Mihai and Basta.
Victorios the two guys fell at each other as the old hatred renewed. Basta got hold of some letters where Mihai wrote quite rude things about the king, and had him murdered.
After Mihai's death the Transylvanians elected a new prince Székely Mózes, (the only Székely prince...) but he was killed in a battle against Wallachian mercenaries of Basta. Basta ruled for king Rudolf until 1605 when the was beaten by prince Bocskai István, and the second golden age or Transylvania begun.

the years between 1598 and 1605 gave great destruction, and changed the demographic distribution of Transylvania greatly. As a saxon historian wrote: It is grace of God that we were barely prevailed...

[Forgus]

True, however it did not include the Romanian Orthodox. It only applied to the 3 nations (Hungarians, Szekelys and Germans).

True again if we refer to the Pike&Musket period. Forced conversion took place at a later time in Transylvania and it was the work of the Austrians (the creation of the so called Greek-Catholic church).


You are right, for the 16th and 17th century there are no major Romanian uprisings in Transylvania. The last major one before the 18th century was in 1437 (in some areas it lasted untill early 1438) and was joined in some areas also by some of the poor Hungarians. As a result the Hungarians, Germans and Szekelys signed a pact pledging mutual assistance to each other in case of danger (the so called "Unio Trium Natiorum" pact, September 16th 1437).

I agree totally with all three remarks...
The 1437 uprising was not an ethnic one it was a classic peasant uprising of the period. It started in the counties of Kolozs, Ugocsa and Szatmár, and these were mainly populated by Hungarians, even so because we are before the Turk invasion. The Leader was also Hungarian Budai Nagy Antal. I don't know much about Romanian participation apart the fact that I heard that the count it a national upraising... I don't now the basys of it, but if somebosy has any details, I'm interested.

[edyzmedieval]

This is mostly not accurate. Transylvania was the first country that declared the equal rights for all religions, and the banning of forced conversions.
It was in declared in 1586 at the national assembly in Torda.
There were no forced conversion of ortodoxes either, reformation does not work that way, you know. I agree, that ortodox romanians were poor and had no political weight, but there were no rebellions of the type you mentioned (please give us dates if you disagree) apart from the movement of the Székelys when prince János Zsigmond went to the catholic székey parts (Csík, Gyergyó) with an army to support unitarism (the prince was converted to unitarism.
Anyway, if there was forced conversion, there should have been a large Romanian calvinist or lutheran church, for the status quo remained the same for hundreds of years after the reformation. Yet, there are very few old romanian ortodox temples in the central areas, let alone calvinist ones.
I think we can assume, that the religion more or less defines etnicity: the Hungarians were the calvinists, unitarians, and catholics (part of the székelys) and for a small extent lutheran, The Saxones were lutherans, and the Romanians were orthodox.
These were the religions and instead of your suggestion Transylvania of the period was the solace of religional tolerance, and a safe haven of those seeking asylium. Of course in the age of reformation there are no longer heretics, and I haven't got the faintest idea where you get that Pagan thing? Who were the pagans?
For more info on the map of religions (and demographics) in those period see:
https://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=religtrans6fk.jpg
More or less
I know of no Romanian movements or revolts until the 18th centuryif there were some please let me knowt that i could research it....
As far as your remark: Romanians and Hungarians don't get very well, you know ~;)
I can say what they say in the town that I loved so well:
What's done is done what is won is won,
And what's lost is lost and gone forever...

But I can't understand why should some people want to redesign the past. But I don't think that we should discuss it here.

Check again detailed history.

They forced the conversions, but of no avail. People didn't want to change from Orthodoxism. Oh well, it's not the place to discuss.

And about the remark, at least there's something we can agree on. (about the quote).

[Dromikaites]

Thanks for the story I didn't now it in such a detail. Shurely tis is not the Bathory that goes gloriously into the Hungarian annales... :-) What you say about the religius difficulties they might have been even more severe, besause the Hungarian nobles of Transylvania were overwhelmingly protestant... And they fought the catholic Székelys... Ironic, isn't it?
Well, in that particular conflict between the Bathorys (it all stated durign Zsigmond's rule) the religion was secondary. What mattered most was the reduced autonomy of the Szekelys.


Some additions, not that they matter: Mihai swore felthy to Bathory in 1599...
Not him, his noblemen played a dirty trick on him in 1595. They were sent to negotiate an alliance treaty with Transylvania. Instead of sticking to their mandate, they saw the opportunity to gain more leverage with their king. In the Wallachian royal council half of the members were Greeks and the Wallachians wanted them out. Mihai got the throne with Greek money (who had great designs for him, hoping he would liberate the Balkans from the Ottomans) and with the support of the powerful noblemen from Oltenia (western Wallachia). The noblemen from Oltenia were not satisfied with how the power was shared after their candidate got the crown. So once in Transylvania they negotiated higher privileges with Bathory Zsigmond (to be exempt from the Wallachian king's justice, to have the Greeks removed from the royal council, etc) and in exchange they swore fealty to the Transylvanian prince. Mihai counteracted by doing the same with the Austrian emperor...


Since he promised that he will deliver the country to the Austrians, and were unwilling to do so in 1600 he was chased out by the Austrian general Basta and the unhappy Thransylvanians in 1600.
Yeah, Mihai had a mind of his own :) But the Wallachian noblemen were also against handing over Transylvania to the Austrian emperor because they considered it to be easier to defend. Strategically, if a competent government controlled Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldova could also be controlled.

Mihai's problem was that his army was mainly a mercenary one. And it was the Austrian emperor who was paying for it. With the subsidies cut, he wasn't able to pay them anymore . The Transylvanian parliament agreed twice to the rising of the taxes, to the point they went 15(!!!) times higher than under the Bathorys. Yet this wasn't enough and the disgruntled mercenaries were plundering the country. Clearly almost everybody in Transylvania got fed up with Mihai's rule because he wasn't able to fulfill his basic duty of protecting his subjects. What is worth mentioning because it is often not mentioned by neither Romanian nor Hungarian historians (for opposite reasons :)), is at first the majority of the Hungarian noblemen supported him (hence their behavior in the Parliament and during the above-mentioned battle). Had he been able to controll his mercenaries, he would have probably died of old age on the throne of an unified Romania or even on the throne of the Byzantine emperors (the Christians form the Balkans had great expectations of him - even today in the history museum in Sofia, the Bulgarian capitol, there is a large hall dedicated to his campaigns in Bulgaria and he is presented there as the liberator of Bulgaria).


Since Mihai was chased out from Wallachia by the Polish he ran to Vienna where once again became friends with the Austrians.
In the meantime the Transylvanians re-elected the former prince Báthory Zsigmond to the throne who was chased away by the combined forces of Mihai and Basta.
Victorios the two guys fell at each other as the old hatred renewed. Basta got hold of some letters where Mihai wrote quite rude things about the king, and had him murdered.
No letters, but Basta had Mihai murdered indeed. Aparently the emperor wasn't too pleased with Basta's initiative.


After Mihai's death the Transylvanians elected a new prince Székely Mózes, (the only Székely prince...) but he was killed in a battle against Wallachian mercenaries of Basta. Szekely Mozes was pro-Ottoman. The Wallachians were still allied with the Austrians so they invaded Transylvania in 1603. Szekely Mozes was killed in battle by the Wallachian army led by the king Radu Serban (one of Mihai's generals). You can say "Wallachian mercenaries" only in the sense the Wallachian army was partly made of mercenaries (but as much as Mihai's army).

[Forgus]

Szekely Mozes was pro-Ottoman. The Wallachians were still allied with the Austrians so they invaded Transylvania in 1603. Szekely Mozes was killed in battle by the Wallachian army led by the king Radu Serban (one of Mihai's generals). You can say "Wallachian mercenaries" only in the sense the Wallachian army was partly made of mercenaries (but as much as Mihai's army).
By that time Mihai was dead, and my resource clearly say that Radu Serban was financed by Basta (or rather the king) Not that it matters...

[Forgus]

Check again detailed history.

They forced the conversions, but of no avail. People didn't want to change from Orthodoxism. Oh well, it's not the place to discuss.

And about the remark, at least there's something we can agree on. (about the quote).

You are right, I will not argue though my fingers are inchy on the keyboard.
Please comment the unit list.

[Dromikaites]

By that time Mihai was dead, and my resource clearly say that Radu Serban was financed by Basta (or rather the king) Not that it matters...
Yes, Mihai was dead, that's how Radu got to be king of Wallachia :)

[cegorach]

OK guys I realise that Hungarian - Romanian relationship was very... complicated.

I do realise that Transylvania was HUNGARIAN at that time. I know that years after 2nd WW some Romanian historians tried to make several Hungarian leaders Romanians.
Because ethnics didn't matter much at that time they were Hungarians of course - you can compare it to some claims that several Polish heroes were Lithuanians/Ukrainians/Belorussians/Germans etc which were far from the truth.

I know that Transylvania was one of the first countries ( with Poland ~D )which provided religious tolerance for its population.

Anyway this topic is rather about the OiM and PMTW mods so please concentrate on:

- units - names, weapons, uniforms ( hungarian, western or eastern - e.g. polish ??) and its battle tactics i.e. used to ambush, raid , as line infantry/cavalry, scouts, horse archers, mounted infantry ( horses to transport or shooting on foot and mounting to move/fight or what,
It is important in what timeperiod to place them ( for PMTW1 - early 1480+, high 1572+ and late 1648+) or before or after Marius reform ?

- historical heroes - name/surname, date of birth/appearance, stats ( command, piety, loyalty, acumen, dread), proposed vices or virtues, place of birth/appearance.
Overall stats for MTW, but easy to trasform into RTW BI ones.
Portraits of these guys would be good as well.

- famous faction leaders would be good as well.

- ancilliaries - faction specific, famous people acting this way etc,

- you can propose historical battles as well - but I need VERY DETAILED INFORMATION INCLUDING MAPS. ~;)

- finally we are still working on animations for MTW edition - if you have some skills and are willing to do some work - tell me.
I need someone to work on eastern units - mostly polish, hungarian, romanian etc.

I will analise your discussion and tell you more early on Monday.

Regards Cegorach :bow:

[cegorach]

Shure, I help I already have done some reseach on Transsylvanian armies that may change the unit list:

Gyalogszékely Pl. székelyek - light inf armed with spears/swords/axes/sometimes muskets/bows

Székely lófő Pl: lófők - medium light cavalry with sabres or lances

Székely veres drabant Pl: drabantok - Red clad musketmen recruited amongst the Székelys

Hajdú Talpas Pl. talpasok -light infantry armed with sabres, no armour

Hajdú puskás pl. - puskások medium infantry no armour, musket sabre

Lovas hajdú pl. hajdúk - light cavalry sabre and pistol no armour

Kék drabant pl. drabantok - medium infantry musketmen good morale wearing blue
Huszár pl. huszárok - Medium cavalry with light armour, using picks, sabres and pistols good morale

Válogatott koplyás - chosen lancers light cavalry good morale no armour shield

Pattanytús pl. pattanytúsok - arty

Szász polgárőrör pl. polgárőrök - medium inf, armoured Saxon town watch

Kék-zöld drabant pl. drabantok - musketmen raised by the Saxon towns may be excluded. Must wear blue-green uniform


Can you divide them into categories:

INfantry - musketeers,
- musket armed ambushers,
- musket armed light infantry ( faster than musketeers, but not for ambushing - rather skirmishing, outflanking)

- mounted infantry - bad cavalry, but use horses to move quickly,
- irregulars - axes, sabres, scythes etc.
- pikemen,

- mercenaries ( only or as well as recruited in normal way),

IN addition - which ones were armoured, and what was their primary melee weapon - sabre, axe or something different ?

Cavalry

- lancers,
- armoured lancers,
- elite cavalry ( bodyguards),
- light cavalry armed with bows or without them,
- irregulars,
militia - were there cavalrymen called Kuruc ??
- cavalry with muskets/carbines,

- anything else ( mercenaries etc)

I need a clear picture to create a list which will be implemented in both editions of PMTW and in OiM ( so more detailed) mod.

Regards Cegorach :book:

[Dromikaites]

I do realise that Transylvania was HUNGARIAN at that time. I know that years after 2nd WW some Romanian historians tried to make several Hungarian leaders Romanians. It is rather the other way around ~;)

The Wallachians and Moldavians were very much into mounted infantry but they were actually quite good on horse. They had to be, since they were fighting the Tartars probably every year (the Moldavians more often than the Wallachians). From now onwards I'll use Romanians instead Wallachia or Moldova unless there is something Wallachian or Moldavian-only.

Romanian armies organisation changed at the end of the 16th century and again at the begining of the 18th century.

15th - 16th century
The army was divided in 2: a permanent army called Oastea Mica (meaning the small army), made of:
- the noblemen (boieri) - helmet, mail or breastplate + shield for defence, lance (or the variant with a hook, for dismounting knights), mace or axe for close combat against heavy armored enemies, sword (both variants - straight and the scymitar one). When dismounted they would use the sword, axe or mace, depending on the type of enemy. They could also shoot arrows but their role was predominantly shock troops or bodyguards.
- the noblemen's retainers (curteni) - helmet, mail or leather armor,shields, lances (sometimes with the hook), bows, axes or maces, swords (both versions). When dismounted they would use bows then close in with shields and swords/maces/axes. basically the curteni were would be a less armored version of the boieri, who would do a lot of arrow shooting.
- mercenaries (seimeni or lefegii) would be usually armed with firearms or, less often, heavy cavalry (Polish or Hungarian hussars). Mercenaries were either armored the same way the curteni were or wore no armor at all. Cossacks or Serbian haiduci would also be among the be the mercenary troops
- medium-light cavalry (calarasi, rosi or rosiori) - those were soldiers like the Byzantine pronoiari, who received land in exchange for service. They were armed like the curteni and wore mail, leather or linen armor. They also fought on foot
- medium infantry (dorobanti from the German trabant), they were also serving in exchange for the land. They used long spears or halberds and large rectangular shields that were hanging from the left shoulder. For close combat they were using swords or double-handed axes.
- artilery (small bombards)
At times of war the Oastea Mare (the big army) was called to join the Oastea Mare. The Oastea mare was made of:
- the border troops (strajeri in Moldova and plaiesi in Wallachia) would shadow the invaders, using hit-and-run tactics. The border troops were almost exclusively light cavalry armed with lances, bows, shields and swords. They wore leather, linen or no armor. The border troops would eventualy converge to the meeting point were the king decided to make the stand. In battle they would usually remain mounted and fend off other light cavalry, hit the flanks or the back of the enemy or chase the routing enemy.
- the peasants divided in archers, spearmen and axemen. They fought on foot and usualy had no armor, using only wooden shields for protection or no shield at all. For close combat the archers and spearmen used knives or axes.

The tactics were almost invariably to chose extremely dificult terrain, reinforce it with battlefield fortifications (ditches, palisades) and have almost all the army dismounted with the cavalry hidden in the forest or behind some hills. Peasants were also generaly hidden because they lacked the discipline to stand the attack of profesional troops. The Romanians were fighting on horseback only against the Tartars, who avoided dificult terrain because of their cavalry-only army.

From 16th to 18th century the Oastea Mare slowly faded out except for the border troops (plaiasi and strajeri). Also the chainmail and leather armor was replaced by a linen&wool version which provided protection against bullets. As a result the soldiers looked chubby. The number of mercenaries also increased and the dorobanti started to use arquebuses and muskets. The bow was still in use because it was outranging the firearms and because the enemies were either not heavily armored or were giving up armor because of the firearms. Towards the end of the 16th century we start to have the panduri in Wallachia and the vanatori in Moldova who were mounted infantry with lances and fire arms. When on foot they were armed with muskets, 2 pistols and a yatagan (Turkish curved sword). Panduri and vanatori usualy wore no armor.

In the 18th century the penetrating power of the firearms made even the linen & wool armors obsolete. The bows and spears were dropped and the size of the Oastea Mica was drasticaly reduced because the Ottomans ordered so. The army was made of

Light cavalry:
- calarasi armed with yatagans and 2 pistols
- rosiori with lances, yatagans and 2 pistols (especialy in Wallachia)

Infantry:
- panduri (Wallachia) or vanatori (Moldova)
- Albanian mercenaries (arnauti), armed similar to the the panduri but considered elite

[cegorach]

Thank you very much !

Here is the list for PMTW ( MTW VI) - the one for OiM is beeing prepared, but for now please see if it is good enough.

It doesn't mention all western type units which Hungary get in the mod, though - only unique units.

UNIT LIST GENERALLY


-------------
PMTW - MTW VI EDITION
-------------

EARLY 1480 - 1572

MOLDAVIA/WALLACHIA
--------------------

INFANTRY
Razesi - peasant archers,
Munteni - mountain units, hide in open for ambushing, doublehanded axes,

CAVALRY - ALL CAN DISMOUNT IN OPEN BATTLE
Boieri - small number of arrows, lance, good armour, shields, BODYGUARDS
Curteni - retainers, more arrows, lance, armour, shields,
Strajeri - border guards, lances, bows, shields and swords



HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
---------------------


INFANTRY
Gyalogszékelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies, hide in open, mercenaries,
----> from High --> Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
----> from High --> Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries
Huszárok - lance, armour, shield,
Rac - lance, shield, armour, but worse than hungarian hussars - shared with Poland, bonus in Serbia,

+ WARWAGONS



HIGH 1572-1648

MOLDAVIA/WALLACHIA
---------------------

INFANTRY
Razesi - still archers, but smaller units of better soldiers to represent more professional infantry,
Dorobanti - armed with arquebusiers, but with good h-t-h capabilities,


CAVALRY
Boieri - small number of arrows, lance, armour, shields, BODYGUARDS
Curteni - retainers, more arrows, lance, light armour, shields,
Plaiesi - no shield, bows,
Vanatori - mounted infantry, fire arms - form of Dragoons,


HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
----------------------

INFANTRY
Székelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies with muskets (small amount of ammunition), hide in open, mercenaries,
Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries
Huszárok - lance, armour, shield

+ WARWAGONS


LATE 1648+

NO MOLDAVIAN/WALLACHIAN FACTION - so the units will be available as regional ones
--------------------------------

Boieri - lance, chainmail, shield
Rosiori - lance, shield,
Calarisi - sabre,

HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
---------------------

INFANTRY
Székelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies with muskets (small amount of ammunition), hide in open, mercenaries,
Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries,
Huszárok - no lance, no armour, sabres only,
Kuruc - militia cavalry

Regards Cegorach ~;)

[Dromikaites]

Thank you very much !

Here is the list for PMTW ( MTW VI) - the one for OiM is beeing prepared, but for now please see if it is good enough.

It doesn't mention all western type units which Hungary get in the mod, though - only unique units.

UNIT LIST GENERALLY


-------------
PMTW - MTW VI EDITION
-------------

EARLY 1480 - 1572

MOLDAVIA/WALLACHIA
--------------------

INFANTRY
Razesi - peasant archers,
Munteni - mountain units, hide in open for ambushing, doublehanded axes,

CAVALRY - ALL CAN DISMOUNT IN OPEN BATTLE
Boieri - small number of arrows, lance, good armour, shields, BODYGUARDS
Curteni - retainers, more arrows, lance, armour, shields,
Strajeri - border guards, lances, bows, shields and swords



HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
---------------------


INFANTRY
Gyalogszékelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies, hide in open, mercenaries,
----> from High --> Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
----> from High --> Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries
Huszárok - lance, armour, shield,
Rac - lance, shield, armour, but worse than hungarian hussars - shared with Poland, bonus in Serbia,

+ WARWAGONS



HIGH 1572-1648

MOLDAVIA/WALLACHIA
---------------------

INFANTRY
Razesi - still archers, but smaller units of better soldiers to represent more professional infantry,
Dorobanti - armed with arquebusiers, but with good h-t-h capabilities,


CAVALRY
Boieri - small number of arrows, lance, armour, shields, BODYGUARDS
Curteni - retainers, more arrows, lance, light armour, shields,
Plaiesi - no shield, bows,
Vanatori - mounted infantry, fire arms - form of Dragoons,


HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
----------------------

INFANTRY
Székelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies with muskets (small amount of ammunition), hide in open, mercenaries,
Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries
Huszárok - lance, armour, shield

+ WARWAGONS


LATE 1648+

NO MOLDAVIAN/WALLACHIAN FACTION - so the units will be available as regional ones
--------------------------------

Boieri - lance, chainmail, shield
Rosiori - lance, shield,
Calarisi - sabre,

HUNGARY/TRANSYLVANIA
---------------------

INFANTRY
Székelyek - light infantry for ambushing enemies with muskets (small amount of ammunition), hide in open, mercenaries,
Hajdú puskások - musketeers - for Hungary and Poland, mercenaries,
Kék drabantok - good quality musketeers,

CAVALRY
Lovas hajdúk - irregular light cavalry - mercenaries,
Huszárok - no lance, no armour, sabres only,
Kuruc - militia cavalry

Regards Cegorach ~;)

Yep, it's accurate enough. Looking forward to seeing the units in the game.

[Forgus]

I will adjust the Hungarians in a few days if I may.

[cegorach]

So Forgus ??? ~:confused:

[Forgus]

So Forgus ??? ~:confused:

I just bought a great book about Hungarian and Transsylvanian armies of the era!! It is a beauty 100 pages in full colour drawings. You'll hear about me soon ~:)

[cegorach]

Great !

I hope you can add some images this way.

Regards Cegorach ~:)

[Forgus]

Great !

I hope you can add some images this way.

Regards Cegorach ~:)

Yeah, I'll scan some...

[cegorach]

Hmmm Forgus...:book: :inquisitive:

[YanTraken]

maby his scaner needs to warm up :D

[cegorach]

He just said that he will send me them tomorrow - forgot, happens. :dizzy2:

[Forgus]

hew... 80 pages in full colour... I don't know where to start :-(

[Forgus]

Here you go, you leeches:

https://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5254/scan00032ec.jpghttps://img48.imageshack.us/img48/7728/veresdarabont2it.jpg
https://img238.imageshack.us/img238/5373/19dw2.th.jpg (https://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=19dw2.jpg)
https://img301.imageshack.us/img301/2172/scan00026pg.th.jpg (https://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan00026pg.jpg)
https://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9044/scan00046qw.th.jpg (https://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan00046qw.jpg)
https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4262/scan00064ut.th.jpg (https://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan00064ut.jpg)
https://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7536/scan00073go.th.jpg (https://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan00073go.jpg)
https://img101.imageshack.us/img101/903/scan00087sg.th.jpg (https://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan00087sg.jpg)
https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7388/scan00099gk.th.jpg (https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan00099gk.jpg)

[cegorach]

Great pictures Forgus it was worth waiting !

I have only one request - could you translate the short hungarian descriptions, it would be most useful !

Regards Cegorach :book:

[Forgus]

1) Hajdú from 1606
2) (Székely) Veres Darabont 1570
3) Székely lófők (cavalry) mid 17th century, Székely Puskások 1620 and officer
4) Székely cavalry and foot cca 1680
5) Kék darabontok (officer and men) around 1600 and the streets they lived in in Gyulafehérvár.
6) Huszárok cca1550 (early) later much liter, no armor!
7) Hajduk 17th century
8) Polish, Cossack and Scotish merc (no mistake!!) late 16th century, early 17th
9) Germans in Transsylvanian service 17th century
10) Rumanian mercenaries for those interested. late 17th century

I skipped arty, baggage, and a lot of stuff but this should be enough.
Give me the number of models assigned to Hungary/Transsylvania, and I give you a good unit roster, and I provide exact pics for the skins.

[cegorach]

I mean that we don't know who is who, so please write for example - picture 1, soldier nr 1 is 'name in Magyar' (translation if possible) and what is written about him on the picture.
It will bu used to prepare 3d models so matters a lot...:2thumbsup:

Regards Cegorach the LEECH :laugh4:

[Forgus]

Check back!

[cegorach]

1) Hajdú from 1606
2) (Székely) Veres Darabont 1570
3) Székely lófők (cavalry) mid 17th century, Székely Puskások 1620 and officer
4) Székely cavalry and foot cca 1680
5) Kék darabontok (officer and men) around 1600 and the streets they lived in in Gyulafehérvár.
6) Huszárok cca1550 (early) later much liter, no armor!
7) Hajduk 17th century
8) Polish, Cossack and Scotish merc (no mistake!!) late 16th century, early 17th
9) Germans in Transsylvanian service 17th century
10) Rumanian mercenaries for those interested. late 17th century

I skipped arty, baggage, and a lot of stuff but this should be enough.
Give me the number of models assigned to Hungary/Transsylvania, and I give you a good unit roster, and I provide exact pics for the skins.


I will inform you how many models/skins can we use and I would still need these translations, thanks again - maybe I will show these picture to a polish writer who recently described Transylvanian army in much simplier and probably quite wrong way - I will tell you what was his impression :2thumbsup:

[Forgus]

The Transsylvanian armies had three parts:

1) Principality troops like the Kék (blue) darabontok, principal household cavalry, mounted musketeers Payed regularly by the state
2) Presideriális hadak (not payed by the state but the counties, towns or nobles, plus the Székelyek who were obliged to fight in exchange for their estates and freedom from taxes. Here belong all the Székely units, like the veres darabontok, Fekete Black darabontok and Zöld Puskások (green musketmen) who were payed by the Saxon towns. It was all set up; for example the transport duties of the principal artillery corps were assigned (overseen and payed by) to the Lutheran Church of the Saxon cities.
I scrapped these because I doubt we'll get that much slots.
3) Mercenaries. Mostly Hajúk, German Musketmen and Rumanian irregulars, plus some other nations like the Cossacks, Polish, Scottish, Italian to a smaller extent.

[cegorach]

All right I have informed OiM team they should answer during the weekend, nonetheless if you want to you can start preparing the unit roster starting with the most important units.

Starting date 1569 - up to early XVIIIth century if necessary, but late XVIIth would be enough.

In addition if you want to add anything about the local architecture it would be quite useful as well. :book:

[Forgus]

OK. But before the roster I really need the slot number. I give you good detail about Transsylvanian architecture; that is my other hobby luckily. Have good books. What exactly do you need?

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=Forgus]1) Hajdú from 1606
2) (Székely) Veres Darabont 1570
3) Székely lófők (cavalry) mid 17th century, Székely Puskások 1620 and officer
4) Székely cavalry and foot cca 1680
5) Kék darabontok (officer and men) around 1600 and the streets they lived in in Gyulafehérvár.
6) Huszárok cca1550 (early) later much liter, no armor!
7) Hajduk 17th century
8) Polish, Cossack and Scotish merc (no mistake!!) late 16th century, early 17th
9) Germans in Transsylvanian service 17th century
10) Rumanian mercenaries for those interested. late 17th century



There are 10 descriptions and only 9 pictures - maybe this one is missing '6) Huszárok cca1550 (early) later much liter, no armor!' ??? :inquisitive:

[cegorach]

OK. But before the roster I really need the slot number. I give you good detail about Transsylvanian architecture; that is my other hobby luckily. Have good books. What exactly do you need?


Typical town and village buildings and other to represent churches, town halls and other places of importance. :book:

[Forgus]

Consider it done.

[cegorach]

Great !:2thumbsup:

[Forgus]

Castles:

Törcsvár
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01949/html/cd3a/kepek/history/to283sz96200.jpg http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~zoltan/photos/slooze/03055romania/022.jpg

more:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://keptar.organic.hu/erdely/tolcsvar/07270049.jpg&imgrefurl=http://keptar.organic.hu/erdely/tolcsvar/&h=960&w=1280&sz=237&tbnid=2cs6mE79V3v51M:&tbnh=112&tbnw=150&hl=hu&start=4&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dt%25C3%25B6rcsv%25C3%25A1r%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dhu%26lr%3D
Segesvár

http://www.sk-szeged.hu/szervezet/fiokhalozat/franciautca/pocsai/Segesvar.jpg
http://www.hodgya.ro/images/bodrogi/segesvar.jpg


Vajdahunyad

http://www.sk-szeged.hu/szervezet/fiokhalozat/franciautca/pocsai/Vajdahunyad.jpg
http://www.poli.hu/erdely/varo_vajdah.jpg

more:

http://www.geocities.com/zoliren2/vajdahunyad/vajdahunyad.htm

[Arman]

Amazing, beautifull places. I shell go there with my wifi ! :-) And it's not too far as well. Is it good tourism area?

[Forgus]

Church Fortresses

Hungarian

Székelyderzs

http://152.66.73.137/~horvi/derzs-vt.jpg

Csíkkarcfalva

http://www.szekelyfoldert.info/sznm/setak/belso/old/img/csikkarcfalva1.jpg

Saxon

Apold

http://www.papirusz.hu/browser/papirusz/milyenvolt/2005_2/apold.jpg

Prázsmár

http://www.erdelyiturizmus.hu/media/picture/1802_3.jpg

more


Szászhermány:

http://mek.oszk.hu/02100/02109/html/img/ff-127.jpg

http://merengo.hu/galeria/szabolcsi_erzsebet/200407-erdely/szaszhermany01.jpg

[Forgus]

Amazing, beautifull places. I shell go there with my wifi ! :-) And it's not too far as well. Is it good tourism area?
Yes... Go there while there are things to see... Walking in Segesvár Schassburg is like walking in Rivendell after the elves left...:no:
Go to the churchyard on the hill, 70% German 30% Hungarian names. Now 10% Hungarian lives there and no Germans. It all drowns in plastic Dracula shit. Even Törcsvár, where I doubt he ever been to is labelled "Dracula Castle" because it looks so gothic. It is a beatiful and for me a sad place. But go there! If really interested I give you a list of must sees. I go there often.

[Forgus]

Churches (in villages, small towns)

http://www.erdelyiturizmus.hu/media/picture/7602_3.jpg

http://www.mke.hu/lyka/03/e3p407.jpg

http://www.unitarius.hu/canada/hkos5.jpg

http://www.keletnyugat.hu/jelkep_elemei/kepek/nagyerdely/erd_templ_nt.jpg

http://www.keletnyugat.hu/jelkep_elemei/kepek/nagyerdely/erd_31nt.jpg

City churces:

http://www.keletnyugat.hu/jelkep_elemei/kepek/nagyerdely/erd_36nt.jpg




one more castle fortress: Szászfehéregyháza (Weissburg)

http://www.keletnyugat.hu/jelkep_elemei/kepek/nagyerdely/erd_01nt.jpg

[Forgus]

Houses, estates, guildhalls drawings by my favourite artist/architect Károly Kós:

http://media.bom.hu/erdelyhonlap/kepek/siklodi_templomterv.jpg

http://media.bom.hu/erdelyhonlap/kepek/kos_karoly_ady_szulohaza.jpg

http://axioart.com/itemimages/big/_21/03_dec/211.jpg

http://www.szephazat.hu/kepek/haziko.jpg

http://www.hhrf.org/mk/812mk/812mk116.gif

Other favourite Laszlo Debreczeni:

http://www.kutyahon.de/erdelyi.templomok/tancs/index-Dateien/default_m-Dateien/04cdce00.jpg

[Forgus]

Now you should now all.:laugh4:

[gugul]

Yes... Go there while there are things to see... Walking in Segesvár Schassburg is like walking in Rivendell after the elves left...:no:
Go to the churchyard on the hill, 70% German 30% Hungarian names. Now 10% Hungarian lives there and no Germans. It all drowns in plastic Dracula shit.o
Oh just stop with all this whining crap! I take all this comments as personal attacks on Romanians and Romania.
I have soooo much to say but won't argue it in the forums of a RTW mod. Could you at least refrain next time from making this kind of remarks?? this is an international forum

[Voevod al Moldovei]

haha nimic nu sa schimbat de vreo 800 de ani, tot ne batem si ne insultam, ei bine.

Hey Chegorach do you still need names of kings because i have a very large a book on romanian history (modern version) and if you just give me the periods i will search and get back to you.

Amongst the many moldovan/wallachian units we had also contingents of Sasi who were germanic tradesmen who weren't merceneraies but regulars who could only be trained in certain regions.

I suggest that the haiducii ( this is the prural in romanian: haiduci) be a elite extremely fast light cavalry like the cossaks. Also have you got enough architectural information

[Forgus]

[QUOTE=Forgus]1) Hajdú from 1606
2) (Székely) Veres Darabont 1570
3) Székely lófők (cavalry) mid 17th century, Székely Puskások 1620 and officer
4) Székely cavalry and foot cca 1680
5) Kék darabontok (officer and men) around 1600 and the streets they lived in in Gyulafehérvár.
6) Huszárok cca1550 (early) later much liter, no armor!
7) Hajduk 17th century
8) Polish, Cossack and Scotish merc (no mistake!!) late 16th century, early 17th
9) Germans in Transsylvanian service 17th century
10) Rumanian mercenaries for those interested. late 17th century



There are 10 descriptions and only 9 pictures - maybe this one is missing '6) Huszárok cca1550 (early) later much liter, no armor!' ??? :inquisitive:
True. Check on it tomorrow

[Forgus]

Oh just stop with all this whining crap! I take all this comments as personal attacks on Romanians and Romania.
I have soooo much to say but won't argue it in the forums of a RTW mod. Could you at least refrain next time from making this kind of remarks?? this is an international forum
You may feel free to take it it as you like. Thanks for sharing this with us. But what I said stands. Go and check if you like. I may even go with you if you like. You inherited something great. I refrain from debating how. But it is changing into something wrong something less. It is like Königsberg, the place where Emmanuel Kant lived. Look at it now.

And it doesn't have to be like this: there are other ways: Go to Krumlau -Cesky Krumlow if you like, and see what I mean.

[cegorach]

Great info Forgus ! :2thumbsup:

@Gugul

I think that some things should be accepted, especially in our part of Europe where so many borders were shifted.
For example previous Bresla is now Wrocław in Poland and actually German heritage is finally wholly accepted, besides most of its citizens came from Lwów which is now Lviv in Ukraine... I am in favour of the freedom of expression and I believe I ahve proven I am no anti-romanian or something...
I think Forgus likes the old Hungarian places which are now Romanian, but it doesn't mean he is anti Romanian or something it is understandable that he can have a different opinion about certain policy like this Drakula castle...

Anyway you will get your own thread for architecture and so on. I have some questions about units as well, since I have bought a book where are certain things demanding answers...

Regards Cegorach :2thumbsup:

[Voevod al Moldovei]

sure i'll be happy to help with questions

anyway ahh everybody is anti-romanian we are the oldest tribe in the balcan area and we have fought with absolutley everyone on our borders so we are naturally paranoid

don't take it personally but we will

[gugul]

You may feel free to take it it as you like. Thanks for sharing this with us. But what I said stands. Go and check if you like. I may even go with you if you like. You inherited something great. I refrain from debating how. But it is changing into something wrong something less. It is like Königsberg, the place where Emmanuel Kant lived. Look at it now.

And it doesn't have to be like this: there are other ways: Go to Krumlau -Cesky Krumlow if you like, and see what I mean.
I was kinda histerical and i may have exagerated in my first reply in this thread so please ignore it.


The Hungarians monuments in Transylvania are all really beautiful (i went to some when i was younger) and no one should doubt that they were made by Hungarians/Germans BUT remember it is not the fault of Romanians that this country is poor.
We did not want to go through 50 years of "democratically elected" (although the Communist party had only 5000 out of voters before 1945) Communism. We did not wish for us to suffer together with Germany, then switch sides and still be treated as a loser by giving up >90% Romanian inhabited Basarabia and paying war debts to the Russians for 25 years.
We did not like Communism and especially Ceausescu.
Hungary has a common border with Austria, it was always more "Western" in culture than Romania, and so it was much easier for Hungary to become wealthier and be accepted in the EU.
Ofcourse you are right in what you said, about "dracula crap", but i really hate it when Romanians get in the West the image of Vandals that destroy Hungarian things because they are stupid and evil. The reasons "WHY" this things happen should be understood. Lack of funding to properly preserve these cities is the main reason for their relatively bad condition. Also as much as i hate everything related to "dracula", this crap is a boost to the Romanian economy. Maybe in 5 - 10 years there will be no need for "dracula castle" and other things like that and with new funding and publicity the Hungarian buildings will get the proper recognition of their worth.

[Voevod al Moldovei]

ahh don't complain about ceausescu you loved him in the beggining and the only reason you din't like him is because he didn't allow you to "have fun" (quote from statement from a revolutionary leader)

plus you gave up bassarabia in 1939 out of your own free will if you loved us so much then you would not have agreed to let hitler use us as a bargaining chip. Second Iliescu showed no initiative to unite both countries and he nver used his influence to help Mircea Druc (my uncle) the priminister of RM who wished to unite both countries.

As to westernisation first we were under the ottoman rule and there were very few instances of westernisms penetrating here plus look what it has brought you now fast food, an ever increasing gap between the poor and the rivch and corruption. Plus you have lost most roots with your culture children are being brought up by TV which infiltriates shit american culture. And it will be over my dead body when i will allow the oldest nation in the balcans to become an american colony

[cegorach]

:inquisitive: :no:

I don't feel like living in american colony and noone tells me to eat fast food or watch US movies, so stop talking rubbish m8. OK ? :laugh4:

[Voevod al Moldovei]

i'm not talking about poland or the EU

have you even been to Romania if you haven't please don't contradict me

[cegorach]

Forgus

20 models are for Transylvania, another 20-25 will be used for Moldavia and Wallachia ( together). So you have 20 to your disposal, but if you have to use a little more ( 2-3) I will not complain.

Regards Cegorach :book:

[gugul]

i'm not talking about poland or the EU

have you even been to Romania if you haven't please don't contradict me
Poland is relatively new to the EU so i doubt the differences are that big.

[gugul]

ahh don't complain about ceausescu you loved him in the beggining and the only reason you din't like him is because he didn't allow you to "have fun" (quote from statement from a revolutionary leader)

plus you gave up bassarabia in 1939 out of your own free will if you loved us so much then you would not have agreed to let hitler use us as a bargaining chip. Second Iliescu showed no initiative to unite both countries and he nver used his influence to help Mircea Druc (my uncle) the priminister of RM who wished to unite both countries.

As to westernisation first we were under the ottoman rule and there were very few instances of westernisms penetrating here plus look what it has brought you now fast food, an ever increasing gap between the poor and the rivch and corruption. Plus you have lost most roots with your culture children are being brought up by TV which infiltriates shit american culture. And it will be over my dead body when i will allow the oldest nation in the balcans to become an american colony
When did I ever love Ceausescu?? My family has always been staunchly anti-Communist since i come from an Aromanian family that lost almost everything when the Communists took power (Aromanians were Rural traders which were generally relatively richer then "proper Romanians" and gypsies).
Should Romania have gone to war ALONE against the USSR, Hungary and Bulgaria in 1940?? That has gang-rape written all over it (excuse my french). And why are you differentiating between Romanians that live in Romania and those that live in Basarabia? Do you consider yourself as coming from a different people? Hell... My branch of the Daco-Roman civilisation has been in a Romanian state only once in 1000 years (since the 1930s) and i still consider myself a Romanian.
Iliescu is an idiot which received votes mostly from the Elderly and from former Communist simphatysers and he isn't president anymore. Any intelligent human being calling itself a Romanian would want to unite Basarabia with Romania but I doubt Russia would accept it and Russia has been and always will be an obstacle to the unification.
No offense but aren't computer games a part of that "shit american culture"? Isn't the Internet actually? aren't computers? if yes, what are you doing on a computer game board?
excuse us Cegorach we are WWWAAAYYYY offtopic...

[Voevod al Moldovei]

the innternet is not a cultural export neither are computer games and plus computer games were also pioneered in russia. plus computers and the internet are british not american. I consider myself a bassarabian like moldovans consider themselvs moldovans, ardelenii ardeleni and muntenii munteni. Plus i beleive that because of the russian influences we have a richer culture, most of our peasants know two languages and also quite alot of our culturalists and intelectuals (like my father and uncle) studied in Moscow and allover the Soviet Union we were more cosmopolitan than Romanians however do not consider me a rusophil i detest the russain ethnics in my country who do not speak romanian and i do not call my native language moldovan either however my attitude is different than that of romanians that is why i can not fully idnetify myself with them.

P.S. if you are a minority of aromanians than you cant speak for the entire people it's like the jews speaking for the whole of germany saying we hated hitler

[Voevod al Moldovei]

plus Romania did pretty well gainst the USSR when it conquered odessa and for the rest it should mind it's own business and not get entangled in alliences it should have declared neutrality

[Forgus]

Forgus

20 models are for Transylvania, another 20-25 will be used for Moldavia and Wallachia ( together). So you have 20 to your disposal, but if you have to use a little more ( 2-3) I will not complain.

Regards Cegorach :book:

Will there be periods/reforms planned? what date?

[Forgus]

Suggestion to the campaign map:

Horvátország - Zágráb
Felső Magyarország - Pozsony
Dalmácia - Zára
Közép-Magyarország - Buda
Partium - Debrecen - porders should be changed a bit
Erdély - Kolozsvár
and if you have one more province:

Bánát- Temesvár

[cegorach]

Will there be periods/reforms planned? what date?

For now not. It ( OiM) starts in 1569 and ands around 1700. 20-23 models for Transylvania only, but it includes musicians, officers etc. :book:

[Forgus]

For now not. It ( OiM) starts in 1569 and ands around 1700. 20-23 models for Transylvania only, but it includes musicians, officers etc. :book:
I see. Then Transsylvania will be an one province faction?
I saw early and late versions of several units. are these tied to a specific date?

[cegorach]

Nope, you see OiM TW is more localised mod than PMTW - in it Trabsylvania will have aroud 5 provinces.

The earlier ideas were for the MTW VI edition of PMTW ( whole europe mod) where there are 3 periods - PMTW 1.5 will be released very soon, but the list I am asking for is for OiM TW where you have a lot of more space to explore - because it is eastern-central europe mod not for the whole europe.

So assume that Transylvania will start as 4-5 province faction in 1569 and that you have 20-23 models to explore for this RTW mod - so officers included.

The fact that I will use the results of your work for PMTW 2 ( for MTW 2 this time) is a different thing, and you should not worry about it :2thumbsup:

Regards Cegorach

[Forgus]

Nope, you see OiM TW is more localised mod than PMTW - in it Trabsylvania will have aroud 5 provinces.

The earlier ideas were for the MTW VI edition of PMTW ( whole europe mod) where there are 3 periods - PMTW 1.5 will be released very soon, but the list I am asking for is for OiM TW where you have a lot of more space to explore - because it is eastern-central europe mod not for the whole europe.

So assume that Transylvania will start as 4-5 province faction in 1569 and that you have 20-23 models to explore for this RTW mod - so officers included.

The fact that I will use the results of your work for PMTW 2 ( for MTW 2 this time) is a different thing, and you should not worry about it :2thumbsup:

Regards Cegorach
Is the map WIP? The only info I need are just the provinces and I get to work.

[cegorach]

You can check here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=46577&page=2

and here

http://totalwar.iatp.org.ua/OiM/OiM_Map_1200.jpg

Regards :book:

[cegorach]

reviving the topic:book: