The greatest American

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well I just the end of the show. And the winner is



Ronald Reagan ~D

With Linclon second and Martin Luther King third ~:confused: Absurd.

As is Oprah Wnnfrey ninth and Jefferson not even in the top ten.

[IrishMike]

Hmm...... I think something is screwd up their, majorly. Where was FDR?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Hmm...... I think something is screwd up their, majorly. Where was FDR?

Tenth or 7th behind GWB in sixth ~;) But he sucked anyway and should be on the 100 worst list ~D

[Productivity]

Have a link? Oprah Winfrey being in the top 100 to me seemse ridiculous (on the other hand, similar people would probably pop up in every nations greatest list).

[Gawain of Orkeny]

No I dont have a lin as the show just ended and they havent posted it yet. Again remember this was just an online or call in poll. To me Jefferson is the greatest American. King isnt even the greatest black american.

[Red Harvest]

Hmm...... I think something is screwd up their, majorly. Where was FDR?

It was a popular vote sort of thing I believe (saw a commercial for it.) Historian rankings interest me more.

I won't knock Reagan (though I acknowledge his faults.) He gets a lot of credit from me for forcing the win in the Cold War, as well as shaking the country out of its post Vietnam-Nixon/Watergate-Oil Embargo-Carter/Iranian Hostage malaise.

[IrishMike]

Tenth or 7th behind GWB in sixth ~;) But he sucked anyway and should be on the 100 worst list ~D

I knew that response was comming.

Anyways this is what happens when you trust the public, you get crazy results.

My thoughts have always been since I first saw the trailer for this show, is that the greatist american is probaly some soldier somewhere that did something to save the lives of his fellow soldiers.

[Red Harvest]

Tenth or 7th behind GWB in sixth ~;) But he sucked anyway and should be on the 100 worst list ~D

By "he" you mean Bush, right? ~;)

[PanzerJaeger]

Wow - for a poll where anyone could call in and vote, thats not actually a bad result.

A great president - maybe not the best American, but the results could have been much more embarrassing. ~;)

I would have gone with John C. Calhoun myself.

[edyzmedieval]

I'm going with Tracy McGrady

He's my fav basketball player....

[English assassin]

King isnt even the greatest black american.

You are more of a Malcolm X man, am I right?

I wouldn't argue that Reagan was the GREATEST American, but I don't think its a bad choice.

[King Henry V]

FDR, IMO, was the best and shrewdest president of the U.S. It's because of him that America is the superpower today.

[doc_bean]

Reagan doesn't seem like a bad choice, certainly better than what some countries have come up with...

Was Washington even on the list ?

[Don Corleone]

I would have gone with John C. Calhoun myself.

Here fishy,fishy, fishy...

[bmolsson]

I must see his movies. I mean the only reason Ronald Reagan can be the best American, must be his movies.... ~;)

[Proletariat]

It's obscene that Jefferson wasn't in at least the top three.

[Proletariat]

Ok, after looking at this list (http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/greatestamerican/greatestamerican.html), how in the blue heaven can Oprah be so high?

Higher than JFK? Edison? Einstein?!

Crap. Already handled by SC. Repeating the Mantra: read, then post...read then post. My apologies, Prollie.

[Ser Clegane]

Ok, after looking at this list (http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/greatestamerican/greatestamerican.html), how in the blue f*ck can Oprah be so high?

Higher than JFK? Edison? Einstein?!

in 2003 the major public TV network made a similar poll for Germany. While the top positions were rather reasonable (e.g., Adenauer, Luther) there were some strange names from the entertainment sector appearing rather high on the list - this will always happen in polls of this kind...

[Proletariat]

I know. I had an urge to be outraged this morning. Forgiveness, please.

[Ser Clegane]

I know. I had an urge to be outraged this morning. Forgiveness, please.

No problem - my post was just an observation and not meant to "chastise" you ~:)

[Franconicus]

Ok, after looking at this list (http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/greatestamerican/greatestamerican.html), how in the blue f*ck can Oprah be so high?

Higher than JFK? Edison? Einstein?!
Because more people know Oprah. Who is Einstein?
By the way, why did not Michael Jackson win?
As Churchill used to say: Do not trust any poll that is not in the org. ~D ~D

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You are more of a Malcolm X man, am I right?

No
George Washington Carver


FDR, IMO, was the best and shrewdest president of the U.S. It's because of him that America is the superpower today.

Oh please.

[Duke Malcolm]

Albert Einstein was American? Since when?
Andrew Carnegie certainly wasn't American, and he funded 2 libraries in this city.
Nikola Tesla wasn't American.

There are more, but these were the most interesting...

[Ser Clegane]

Albert Einstein was American? Since when?

He became US citizen in 1940

[Duke Malcolm]

Exactly, an American citizen, but his nationality was not American

[Ser Clegane]

Exactly, an American citizen, but his nationality was not American

And why would the fact that he was not born in the US be a reason to not include him in a list of great Americans? ~:confused:

[Duke Malcolm]

because that shows that he is not American, unless he has American parents. Just holding citizenship of a country does not make one of that country. When the BBC did a poll of Great Britons, they had people who came from the British Isles, not anywhere but then later became British subjects...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

because that shows that he is not American, unless he has American parents.

Were not talking about Jews here but Americans ~;) So if he has illegal Mexican parents but is born here is he Mexican or American? According to the law hes American. If you are born in Germany and move to the US at 2 months old and become a citizen are you an American? There is no ethincity to being an American all it requires is US citizenship.

Meanwhile in another thread a man who was born and lived in the middle east for his 1st 21 years is said to know nothing about the middle east and is an American. ~:confused:

[King Henry V]

When it comes to choosing the greatest national figure, the public should not be allowed to vote.I mean, in the Great Britons poll John Lennon came something like fourth. WTF? Some stoned, crappy musician is considered greater than the likes of Nelson or Cromwell!

[Franconicus]

In fact he was a Jewish German from Switzerland ~D ~D

He once said: If my theory turns to be wrong, the French will say he is a German and the German will say he is a Jew. If it turns to be right, the Germans will say he is a German and the French will say he is European.

This was before he went to the US.

I think he did not care too much about nations (and notions ~D ~D ~D )

[Don Corleone]

because that shows that he is not American, unless he has American parents. Just holding citizenship of a country does not make one of that country. When the BBC did a poll of Great Britons, they had people who came from the British Isles, not anywhere but then later became British subjects...

With all due respect, your snobbery is showing. You're an American the day you sign the paperwork. If you're going to put a bloodline test in place, and try to equate 'Americanism' to ethnicity, a huge number of our citizens aren't Americans (the percentage would depend on how many generations of 'American' blood you have to have to be considered American).

[Duke Malcolm]

Oh, yes, I suppose it must be different for colonised places such as yourself, otherwise only the red indians would qualify, my mistake... But I still feel that they should be born in the US to qualify...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

But I still feel that they should be born in the US to qualify...

Well I dont think the child of an illegal immigrant should be given citizen status but you and I dont make the law.

[Auctoritas]

Did George Washington make the top ten at least?
For crying out loud, the guy was in a perfect position to stage a military coup after the American Revolutionary War and made the conscious decision to back the established (and noteworthily ineffective) government as defined by the articles of confederation.

As a frustrated, (extremely amateur) historian, I am appalled.
:book:

[JAG]

Churchill won ours for **** sake, all these polls are populist tripe. The hero worship of Churchill in this country is amazing, all from fables and illusions, yes he had one significant achievement - being so bloody minded he risked everything to go against the Nazis - and for that he should be applauded, but everything else he did was a miserable failure, including some of the decisions made during WW2.

I think the same largely applies to Reagan as well over there, certainly not who I would pick as the Greatest American.

[PanzerJaeger]

Who would you pick?

[Papewaio]

Richard Feynman
:thinking2:

[JAG]

Who would you pick?

Good question, I think it would end up being a toss up between George Washington, Lincoln and Einstein.

[Ironside]

I have to admit that putting Einstein as a great American feels odd, as everything(?) he got famous for was done before he came to America.

Although I'm not certain how to make up a list on how you should define an American in this poll. Perhaps if they did what they are known for, while being in America would be the most acceptable way.

[Mount Suribachi]

Reagan????? ~:confused:

Top 10 maybe, but winner???


Churchill won ours for **** sake, all these polls are populist tripe. The hero worship of Churchill in this country is amazing, all from fables and illusions, yes he had one significant achievement - being so bloody minded he risked everything to go against the Nazis - and for that he should be applauded, but everything else he did was a miserable failure, including some of the decisions made during WW2.

Just for saving our country in our darkest hour he deserved to win.

But lets not forget his career as a war correspondent and his escape from a Boer POW camp.

Or his 50 year political career as a Conservative then Liberal and then Conservative.

Or helping to organise the defense of Antwerp in WW1

Or his successful (and surprisingly liberal by the standards of the day) periods as Home Secretary and Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Or his best-selling history books, still in print today.

Or his Noble Prize for literature.

Hardly a "miserable failure".

Yeah, you can blame him for Gallipolli (but give him credit, he went and resigned after it and served in the trenches in France. Can't see Blair resigning and taking a comission in Basra, can you?). Yes, his opposition to Indian self-rule in the 30s was embaressing (and diluted the effect of his warnings about German re-armament). And his behaviour as opposition leader when Atlee was in power did not become the great man. But is there any many with a 50 year career in front line politics who is mistake free?

I suggest you go and read "Churchill" by Roy Jenkins (hardly a right-wing cheerleader I'm sure you'll agree) who dispels many of the myths surrounding Churchill as propagated by those on the left who have a hard-coded hatred of the man.

[Grey_Fox]

Well he did make terrible decisions in WW1 such as sending Craddock to fight von Spee with an inferior force. Antwerp was a farce, Gallipoli was a disaster. He allowed a German battleship and cruiser to escape in the Mediterranean because his orders were mostly conflicting and ambiguous. He was an amateur and it showed.

[King of Atlantis]

Reagan is an okay choice, but probably not the best.

ROSA PARKS should not even be on that list. She was some stubborn lady that didnt mind the law and move to the back of the bus. Now i know she ended up being a symbol for a good cause(black rights) but she never had that in mind. She even sued Outkast(rap group) for making a song after her!

And george bush should certainly not be on that list...... :furious3: . Even most of my conservative friends admit that Bush isnt a good president, but they say he was just much better than Kerry...

[Revelation]

Vote 1 Lee Harvey Oswald!

[Aurelian]

I guess you can't expect much from a random "Greatest American" poll.

Still, I don't think that Reagan is a particularly surprising choice for number one. All he had to do was get more votes than any other single candidate. A lot of Republicans still worship Reagan, and the media certainly helped with the completely non-critical hero worship it gave him after his death.

Still, it's more than a little shameful that he made the top of that list. I guess a lot of Americans believe that Reagan told Gorbachev "pull down that wall" and made the Soviet Union collapse. It's crap, but a lot of Americans believe it.

I would disqualify him for: supporting Central American death squads, negotiating with terrorists, running away like a little girl in Beirut, pretending that he knew nothing about Iran-Contra under oath, wasting money on "Star Wars", running a corrupt administration, and turning us into the world's greatest debtor nation (among many other things). But that's just me. ~D

Certainly, people like Jefferson, Washington, or Edison would be more deserving; but they've been dead a long time and don't have much of a voting constituency.

Oprah is the one that freaks me out the most. She's a relatively decent talk show host (and less sleazy than the others since she cleaned up her show years back), but hardly a candidate for "Greatest American".

[PanzerJaeger]

Washington and Jefferson had slaves didnt they?

If you would disqualify Reagan for spending too much money, wouldnt you disqualify someone for owning slaves! ~:eek:

[Aurelian]

Nah. What's a little slavery between friends? ~D

After all, Washington freed his slaves on his death; and Jefferson really, really loved his slaves (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).

Actually, he was always uncomfortable with slavery, but didn't see an immediate way out of it.

They made up for the slaveholding in other ways.

Reagan, not so much. He did know how to project an iconic image that a lot of Americans responded to. The cowboy hat, flag, and militarism 'jedi mind trick' just never worked on me. He was pretty good at it though.

[King of Atlantis]

Washington and Jefferson had slaves didnt they?

If you would disqualify Reagan for spending too much money, wouldnt you disqualify someone for owning slaves! ~:eek:


You cant hold it against someone for having slaves when slavery was accepted. If we are to judge the past with modern ideals then we must consider almost every histoorical figure as evil.

[PanzerJaeger]

I was just showing that you can make any historical figure look bad if you pick and choose what aspects of their leadership you want to discuss.

If I had something against Washington i could paint him as a bigoted aristocrat who turned terrorist and led a bloody insurgency that ruined many of his people financially and cost many their lives.

That of course isnt a true picture of Washington, but its not very hard to twist the record of anyone who did anything significant in history.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

back to Churchill: major black mark against his name was his sending the army in against striking miners. That hasn't been forgotten where I'm from.

[King of Atlantis]

I was just showing that you can make any historical figure look bad if you pick and choose what aspects of their leadership you want to discuss.

If I had something against Washington i could paint him as a bigoted aristocrat who turned terrorist and led a bloody insurgency that ruined many of his people financially and cost many their lives.

That of course isnt a true picture of Washington, but its not very hard to twist the record of anyone who did anything significant in history.

oops, i agree with your point now ~:)


By the way, i would say washington was the greatest american, after uncle sam of course ~;)

[caesar44]

I have counted 4 times reagan.. it's a joke , right ? if it is not , please explain ~:confused:


"The defects of great men , are the consolations of the stupids" (Isaac de israeli)
:book:

[Kagemusha]

Im not an American but i would have voted George Washington.After all he was one of the key figures behind the birth of the USA. :bow:

[Don Corleone]

Benjamin Franklin. Tireless worker, organized many of the fundamental principles that Madison & company used in the Constitution. Inventer. Investor. Shoot, the list is just too darned long...

Not to mention, he was quite the ladies man, especially with the girlies in the French court.

Washington was good, Jefferson was okay, Reagan was good, but none really would be in my top 3 list. Lincoln certainly wouldn't have been.

My #2 & #3: Teddy Roosevelt and Alexander Hamilton.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

My #2 & #3: Teddy Roosevelt and Alexander Hamilton.


Good choices, but almost predictable for you, Don. Two awesome Americans.

[King of Atlantis]

Im not an American but i would have voted George Washington.After all he was one of the key figures behind the birth of the USA. :bow:


*not only that but he was one of the first people in history to willing give up power(americans would have voted him president until his death but he said 8 years was plenty)

*against political parties, thought they would tear the country apart... ~;)

*probably one of the only presidents who wasnt a politician.

*His great leadership saved us in the revelutionary war.

btw, why do so many people think lincoln was so great??????

[Krypta]

I dunno who I would pick, there is a tonne of great americans (and probably more that didn't make it) on that list, be a very difficult choice as its already an impressive list. I would give Oprah, Bob Hope, Walt Disney and Elvis the boot though. I know the list is relative, but cmon...

Under the "What you didn't Know", of Elvis:
"Despite battling an addiction to prescription drugs, he became a Federal Narcotics Bureau agent in 1970 after persuading President Nixon to appoint him..."
heh ~D

[GoreBag]

Benedict Arnold.

[caesar44]

I have counted 4 times reagan.. it's a joke , right ? if it is not , please explain ~:confused:


"The defects of great men , are the consolations of the stupids" (Isaac de israeli)
:book:


So reagin was a joke... you Americans almost fulled me here ~:cheers:

[Don Corleone]

Ceaser,

If you're looking for allies from America in your pro-Israel discussions, I'd advise you hold back on bashing Reagan. In America, the people who tend to hate him tend to hate Israel and the people who tend to support him, tend to support Israel. There's an old expression you might want to hearken to: "Don't $H!# where you eat".

Not to mention, as Israel, and it's security, seem to be your biggest concerns, I would imagine you would be a Reagan supporter, as he was certainly a big Israel supporter during his time in office.

[caesar44]

Ceaser,

If you're looking for allies from America in your pro-Israel discussions, I'd advise you hold back on bashing Reagan. In America, the people who tend to hate him tend to hate Israel and the people who tend to support him, tend to support Israel. There's an old expression you might want to hearken to: "Don't $H!# where you eat".

Not to mention, as Israel, and it's security, seem to be your biggest concerns, I would imagine you would be a Reagan supporter, as he was certainly a big Israel supporter during his time in office.


Wwooww

You are so disappointing me Don

1.I am not looking for allies , just looking for the truth
2. I was not bashing anyone , just read my posts , I ask that if he no joke , please explain
3. This is noting to do with Israel , you know , we have kids , food , trees , sky , roads , gardens , cheeks , sun ... we are "almost" like you or should I to ask you before posting on any subject
4. I am eating in a little restaurant down the road , and you can tell Bush to stop sending us food
5. You Don can speak on Jews and Israel as you wish , and I can't talk about USoA , well , why is that ?

Please stop with your American (John wein's stile) arrogance

ggggggggghhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrrrrr my God


HEI DON , WE ARE STILL FRIENDS ? ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers:

[Ser Clegane]

Please calm down, gentlemen ... the topic of this thread does not seem "hot" enough to have patrons jumping at each others throats ~:grouphug:

[caesar44]

By the way , the greatest American - nancy reagan

[Don Corleone]

Wwooww


HEI DON , WE ARE STILL FRIENDS ? ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers:

Of course we're still friends. If you don't care that you're in the process of alienating half of America by calling Ronald Reagan a joke, that's your right. If it just so happens that that is the half that's sympathetic to what you have to say, and you wind up with nobody listening to you, that's cool too.

I'm not harboring any anger towards you, and I apologize if I came off that way. You'll note that Reagan was neither 1, 2 or 3 for me. I was offering you some friendly advice, but by all means, do your best to antagonize as many factions in America as you can.

And of course we're still friends. There are very, very few of the backroom regulars I can't say at least 3 good things about, yourself included. Even that little rat, I mean prince of a guy, BP. (Just kidding BP). ~D

[Gawain of Orkeny]

caesar44 can you please tell me why you hate Reagan so much. Carter or Clinton I could understand. ~;)

[Proletariat]

Even that little rat, I mean prince of a guy, BP. (Just kidding BP). ~D

Did BP really get PBed?

(Sorry, I knew that was stupid. Chalk it up to the dinner vino.)

[caesar44]

Of course we're still friends. If you don't care that you're in the process of alienating half of America by calling Ronald Reagan a joke, that's your right. If it just so happens that that is the half that's sympathetic to what you have to say, and you wind up with nobody listening to you, that's cool too.

I'm not harboring any anger towards you, and I apologize if I came off that way. You'll note that Reagan was neither 1, 2 or 3 for me. I was offering you some friendly advice, but by all means, do your best to antagonize as many factions in America as you can.

And of course we're still friends. There are very, very few of the backroom regulars I can't say at least 3 good things about, yourself included. Even that little rat, I mean prince of a guy, BP. (Just kidding BP). ~D

Ok , I just wanted to say that we in Israel have opinions on any subject as do all people , and our opinions are not always connected with us as Jews , now Don , I was aware of Reagan sympathy towards Israel and tell you the truth - HE WAS LOVED HERE AS ALMOST AS ANY AMERICAN PRESIDENT
But , you know , the fact that he came from Hollywood , his absolute opinions on any subject and his wife , you know , she was looking at the stars and telling here husband how to rule accordingly....

"Israel - the 51' state of the USoA" (AN Israeli popular saying , with good intention)

[caesar44]

caesar44 can you please tell me why you hate Reagan so much. Carter or Clinton I could understand. ~;)

Hi Gawain ,
Never said I hate the man , on the contrary !
But , imo , he was not the greatest American , he was a good president and was loved by his people , to compare him with Washington , Jefferson , Lincoln etc' ?

"God bless America" (from the $$$$ isn't it ?)
"Without America the world was a bad place" (my self , when arguing with my pseudo Liberals "friends")
~:cheers:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

But , imo , he was not the greatest American , he was a good president and was loved by his people , to compare him with Washington , Jefferson , Lincoln etc' ?

He was far better than Linclon ~;) Dont you think we in the US have a little better perspective on his presidency? I certainly wouldnt try to correct you on who you say is the best Israeli of all time. By the way whats your answer to that. To bad our other Israeli member doesnt post here any more.

[King of Atlantis]

possibly better than lincoln, but certainly not better than washington and jefferson.

[Colovion]

greatest American...

http://www.medaloffreedom.com/MartinLutherKingHaveaDream.jpg

[King of Atlantis]

definatly not....

[Mount Suribachi]

because....?

He's one of my leading contenders along with Lincoln and Chuck Yeager

[Gawain of Orkeny]

How in the world can anyone consider King the greatest American. Its a travesty he has a holiday named for him while they took away Washington and Lincolns. Certainly he was a great man . But the greatest american no way. Again he wasnt even the greatest black American.

[PanzerJaeger]

MLK - the greatest american? Revisionism at its finest.. or maybe just hero worship. :laugh4:

[Colovion]

Why? He was the first humanitarian American I could think up. That's it. I'm sure I might respect other prominent members of the American populace if I thought about it more, but at this time that's who gets my vote.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

He was the first humanitarian American I could think up.

You want humanitarians? Try these

http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/95dec/95decgifs/barton3.gif
Clara Barton (http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/95dec/barton.html)

American Humanitarian

1821 - 1912

Angel of the Battlefield,
American Red Cross Founder

http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/95oct/95octgifs/eleanor2.gif

Eleanor Roosevelt (http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/95oct/roosevel.html)

American First Lady & Humanitarian

1884 - 1962

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
—Eleanor Roosevelt

[King of Atlantis]

Dont get me wrong m.l jr. was a great man, but i dont think he deserves to be the best, there are simply people that have done more important things..

[caesar44]

He was far better than Linclon ~;) Dont you think we in the US have a little better perspective on his presidency? I certainly wouldnt try to correct you on who you say is the best Israeli of all time. By the way whats your answer to that. To bad our other Israeli member doesnt post here any more.


Imo you can argue about anything , facts are one thing and opinions are another thing , you can argue about the second , but , arguing on facts ?

Well , the fact is that reagan was an American president from 1981 to 1989 , but our opinions of him ? anybody can say anything

About the greatest Israeli - DBG

"America is lucky , it grew on the mistakes of the Europeans nations" (Napoleon B.)

[xemitg]

I so called that in a post I made when the show first started.