The founding fathers on God.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Just what was their position or beliefs on this matter. Many claim they were diest while others post quotes by them showing them to be anti christain. I thought we could examine a few and see what everyone thinks. Lets start with Jeffersona one they claim is a diest.


I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world ...

How does that square with this quote also by him


“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

Heres another


The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.


Yet he says


"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

Yet people claim hes a diest. ~:confused:

More




Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by [attaching] it to this filthy book [the Bible].


“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”


The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.


“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

Is it any wonder people get confused. I take it that Jefferson like me was against organized religion though he still believed that Jesus was lord. However he held church services the whole time he was president in the halls of congress as did Madison.
Heres the links to both the pro and con sides of these quotes including many from the other founding fathers,

PRO (http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm)

CON (http://www.anotherperspective.org/advoc550.html)

[King of Atlantis]

Probably most of the founding fathers were christians, and their christian values are clear in the constitution. They were against bringing religion into government, but not against bringing in ones religious values.

~:cheers:

[Roark]

There's also a difference between the moral system of Jesus Christ and his teachings as they manifest in the Christian community.

The theory/teachings are pure, humankind is certainly not.

[ICantSpellDawg]

much of his ranting seems to be pointed at the catholic church. this was not at all rare in early american protestantism. when i lived in texas even devoutly christian people spouted hate-filled rhetoric against catholics. this does not mean that they are not christian, but rather seriously questioned parts of the organization which they had been protesting against.

who knows what the crap jefferson believed

i fail to see how people who scorn church dogma when faced with the probability that it is all man-made are the same people who cheer and defend a constitution and bill of rights that was just as arbitrarily put together by a synod of people who represented wealthy americans and some new styled status quo.

who the hell was jefferson anyway? why is he some sort of authority on anything of importance in todays world in the first place?

he was just as human as you and i - he suffered from faults and the same innability to plug into "god's" truth dissemination hour on heaven radio

life is so friggin complicated it gives me an ulcer

nobody really knows what the hell they are talking about

all we seem to know how to do is attack what we believe to be wrong but not have any idea as to what is actually right

[Pindar]

Deism and Christianity are not necessarily antithetical positions. Quite the contrary, deism is a product of Newton's unintended revolution whereby the ordered universe was seen as no longer requiring Divine involvement. A deist may recognize a Divine creative act and the atonement of Christ, but otherwise see the Divine withdrawn from engagement.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Deism and Christianity are not necessarily antithetical positions. Quite the contrary, deism is a product of Newton's unintended revolution whereby the ordered universe was seen as no longer requiring Divine involvement. A deist may recognize a Divine creative act and the atonement of Christ, but otherwise see the Divine withdrawn from engagement.


sure - and jefferson never said (in any of those quotes) that he believed that jesus was God or the son of God or even that he had a two way with the heavens

he simply propogated the notion that jesus had great teachings

that is very different from believing in a jesus who cornered the market on a superlative moral code, rather one who was incredibly altruistic

many muslims believe this also - as well as jews, hindus, etc

not many people (relatively)believe that jesus as a teacher was a bad thing at all

[Gawain of Orkeny]

he simply propogated the notion that jesus had great teachings

that is very different from believing in a jesus who cornered the market on a superlative moral code, rather one who was incredibly altruistic


Your right on the first part and wrong on the second.

To back up the first


"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."


Before I go to the second let me address this


much of his ranting seems to be pointed at the catholic church. this was not at all rare in early american protestantism. when i lived in texas even devoutly christian people spouted hate-filled rhetoric against catholics.

I hadnt considered this but it makes total sense. Its funny becuse on the radio tonite I heard a big story about anti catholisim in the US. It went on for 100 years. It makes sense as most americans were protestant. And who were they protesting and fighting against for a few hundred years. Ill give you one quess. That explains why he allowed all denominations of protestants to hold services in the halls of congress but no catholic did so till much later.

OK now the second point



“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

This certainly looks like hes saying Jesus is the way to go above all others


who the hell was jefferson anyway? why is he some sort of authority on anything of importance in todays world in the first place?

You know the more I read of him the more Im convinced he was indeed the greatest american. These quotes for example seemed so contradictory to me untill you brought up the catholic church. Clearly this is who he is attacking in many of these cases. But I also believe he was indeed suspicous just as I am of any organised church that asked you to support it with money. I belive he thought much more like you than you would imagine. He was a wise man and was well aware that religion is a two edged sword.

[Idaho]

From those quotes it is fairly obvious that he sees the moral code laid out in the teachings of the New Testament to be the best moral code produced by religion. He doesn't anywhere contradict his point that as a superstitious belief, Christianity is as meaningless as any of the others.

Of course he lacked the handy perspective of 20th century anthropology which of course would have shown him that he was only pleased with Christianity as a moral code because it formed the basis of his culture and society.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

From those quotes it is fairly obvious that he sees the moral code laid out in the teachings of the New Testament to be the best moral code produced by religion. He doesn't anywhere contradict his point that as a superstitious belief, Christianity is as meaningless as any of the others.

Yes he does.


"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

He claims to be a Christain. Again it is organised religion and catholisim for the most part hes attacking. The guy went to church. He was a christain. He however let all denominations hold church services in congress. I doubt also that Jesus would approve of the way christians have hi jacked his message as far as establishing a church goes.
They gave taken his message that he who believeth in me shall know salvation to mean their church not him.

[Steppe Merc]

In all honsetly, I don't think the intentions of the founders should matter at all. The point is that now, we should not have a religous government, regardless of what the founders thought. We should strive to advance beyond our past, not stay limited by it.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

In all honsetly, I don't think the intentions of the founders should matter at all.

Of course not you a liberal ~D I guess we just toss out that old rag called the constitution and write a more modern one more to your liking. Even though your in the minority.


The point is that now, we should not have a religous government, regardless of what the founders thought.

They didnt believe that either ~:confused: The only thing they really opposed was for any religion to be "established" . That is sponsored or funded by the state making it the official religion of the land. The first amendment seems pretty clear on that to me. The word cohersion is what is usually seen to be the determing factor. In other words the state mandating that a certain religion is correct and its your duty as a citizen to follow it. In other words no theocracies.

[Steppe Merc]

Of course not you a liberal ~D I guess we just toss out that old rag called the constitution and write a more modern one more to your liking. Even though your in the minority.
Well, I wouldn't toss out the Constitution. I think it's a decent guide line. I'm just saying that there is room for improvment. And yeah, I know I'm in a minority. That's why I'm not going to be able to change anything anytime soon, but it doesn't stop me from having ideas. ~;)