Should priests marry?

[edyzmedieval]

Another religious topic....

[King of Atlantis]

Well as a protestant i have been raised with married Preachers, and i have never seen a problem with it. My preacher right now is actually a female, which is another styigma in many religions.

Not allowing clergy to marry often leads to sex scandals. These sex scandals have hurt the church. Popes have even had scandals with girls AND boys.

[Radier]

I voted yes.

And I think these pervert priests who raped girles and boys in USA immediatly shall be executed.

[Xiahou]

Not allowing clergy to marry often leads to sex scandals. These sex scandals have hurt the church. Popes have even had scandals with girls AND boys.I dont really think that's an accurate statement. Statistically, I believe that (Catholic) priests have 'scandal' rates that are far far lower than the public. So I don't think you can say not allowing them to marry causes these problems.

In my mind:
PRO: Many more people will be willing to be priests since they don't have to give up their chance for children and married life.

CON: Having had a relative who was a priest, it is literally a FULL time job. They're financially responsible for the church and often an accompanying school as well. In addition, they have to meet the needs of their parishoners at all hours- trips to the hospital, phone calls, meetings, ect. I don't know that there's time enough for priests to be good parents and good pastors.

[King of Atlantis]

well maybe i shouldnt have said often, but it can lead to sex scandals, and it is breaking god's first commandmnet, go forth and be fruitfal.

[Spetulhu]

well maybe i shouldnt have said often, but it can lead to sex scandals, and it is breaking god's first commandmnet, go forth and be fruitfal.

The scandal doesn't become any less when higher church officials try to cover it up by moving the perverts to other cities.

Fruitful? That's part of the problem. If the priest has heirs the church can't inherit what earthly wealth he's got. That would have been bad for the greedy prelates who instituted the no marriage rule.

[PyrrhusofEpirus]

CON: Having had a relative who was a priest, it is literally a FULL time job. They're financially responsible for the church and often an accompanying school as well. In addition, they have to meet the needs of their parishoners at all hours- trips to the hospital, phone calls, meetings, ect. I don't know that there's time enough for priests to be good parents and good pastors.In antiquity, christian priests were allowed to marry. They used to have a normal job, being farmers, clerks, even merchants. The reason was to be part of the flock. After the prevalence of christianity at late Roman era, the priests got a full time job, but still were able to marry. Only in west Christianity, the later known as Catholic church, the priest marriage forbided, following the Councils of Elvira and Carthage. However, this claim was never given credence at any Ecumenical Council, even in the 4th century.

With sources from Wikipedia,Clerical celibacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_celibacy) :book:

[Grey_Fox]

The level of sexual abuse among priests is the same as it is amongst the general public, so I fail to see how allowing priests to marry would decrease this.

As said before, celibacy was only introduced in the 14th century or so as the Church did not want to parcel out property to the children of priests.#

Could you put in a GAH! option?

[Samurai Waki]

I personally cannot say that I even remotely care. Sexual Abuse and such amongst the Catholic Church are really no higher than any other Christian Sects. It's just as the largest Christian Sect, Catholics always have the eye of the world on them from a Religious Stand Point. I don't see why a Priest shouldn't be able to marry, it would stop a lot of them from not drinking(This Comes from my Days at a Private Catholic High School... almost all the priests were alcoholics), and bulster the amount of new Priests within the Convent.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Only if they want to. Shouldnt the question have been should they be allowed to marry? Right now they have Deacons which are as close as it gets so far.

[Don Corleone]

I voted yes.

And I think these pervert priests who raped girles and boys in USA immediatly shall be executed.

I got bad news for you. It's not native to the USA, it happens everywhere. The United States is just the only country with a large enough Catholic population to make it a scandal, yet a rebellious enough 'faithful', to actually speak out loud about it.

Ask yourself why the Irish government is making retributrion payments to sexual abuse victims on behalf of the Church before you go assuming it's limited to America.

[Don Corleone]

The problem with Roman Catholic priests and sexual abuse has very little to do with the likelihood of any one priest to be an offender (versus a Lutheran minister or a Jewish Rabbi). The problem stems from the decision of the Church to protect priests and shield them from any and all accusations, moving them from one parish to another and threatening whistle blowers with excommunication. I don't believe Catholic priests are any more likely to be an offender than anybody else that works with children on a regular basis. But instead of 2 or 3 victims before getting caught and brought to justice, an offending priest can have dozens, even hundreds.

All that being said, for reasons completely unrelated, I think priests should be allowed to marry. Some are. If you're an Orthodox priest or an Anglican priest (haven't broken line of apostolic succession) and try to convert to Catholicism, you're allowed to stay married and be a priest, as they can't defrock you for something that wasn't wrong when you took your vows. This almost always is applied in 3rd world countries only.

[BDC]

Yes.

I wouldn't be born if they weren't lol... Nice being in an Anglican country.

[_Martyr_]

I got bad news for you. It's not native to the USA, it happens everywhere. The United States is just the only country with a large enough Catholic population to make it a scandal, yet a rebellious enough 'faithful', to actually speak out loud about it.

Ask yourself why the Irish government is making retributrion payments to sexual abuse victims on behalf of the Church before you go assuming it's limited to America.


Because the church was acting on behalf of the state. They were state schools run by religous orders. The Church then somehow managed to get an agreement with the state that limited their liability to a fixed figure (cant remember what it was exactly but certainly in the tens of millions), but not a percentage as it should have been. So essentially the tax payer is now burdened with the payment, where the Church got away with a relatively small handout, when really they were largely responsible for the damage caused, not for the individual sick priests' actions but more for not putting a stop to it when they knew full well exactly what had gone on, often just moving the priest around to another school/parish. The Church was acting as an agent of the state, and messed up badly, but it is the state which now pays out the vast majority of the damages.

As far as priests being allowed to wed... of course they should. The people who point out that it would essentially split their time between family and church should look at the protestant priests/ministers/etc... to see its very possible. I mean, sure being a priest is difficult and time consuming, but their are harder/more time consuming jobs out their and lots of those people are somehow able to do both. ~:)

[PyrrhusofEpirus]

This almost always is applied in 3rd world countries only
List of Eastern Catholic Churches in which priests are allowed to marry AFAIK:
From wikipedia:
List of Eastern Catholic Churches
Byzantine liturgical tradition:
Albanian Catholic Church
Belarusian Catholic Church
Bulgarian Catholic Church
Byzantine Catholic Church in America
Croatian Byzantine Catholic Church
Czech Catholic Church
Georgian Catholic Church
Greek Catholic Church
Hungarian Catholic Church
Melkite Greek Catholic Church
Romanian Catholic Church
Russian Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Slovak Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Antiochene liturgical tradition:
Maronite Catholic Church
Syrian Catholic Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
Chaldean liturgical tradition:
Chaldean Catholic Church
Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
Armenian liturgical tradition:
Armenian Catholic Church
Alexandrian liturgical tradition:
Coptic Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church
I don't think that most of them can be called Catholic churches of 3rd world countries
:bow:

[edyzmedieval]

I think the Orthodox priests are allowed to marry.....

[Navaros]

i guess the implication of this question is that letting priests marry would reduce pedophilia and other evil acts of freakdom

wrong.

a pedophile freak is still a pedophile freak regardless of if he is married

if they want to reduce that then they need a much more competent screening process to keep the wolves in sheep's clothing out of the church in the first place

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I think the Orthodox priests are allowed to marry.....

I believe the only christain church that dosent allow thier priests to marry is the Roman Cathloic one.

[Don Corleone]

List of Eastern Catholic Churches in which priests are allowed to marry AFAIK:
I don't think that most of them can be called Catholic churches of 3rd world countries
:bow:

You misunderstood what I said. I'm talking about when Roman Catholic churches will allow a married priest of one of the denominations you listed to cross over and be a Roman Catholic priest, but keep their wife, typically occurs in 3rd world countries.

[Don Corleone]

Because the church was acting on behalf of the state. They were state schools run by religous orders. The Church then somehow managed to get an agreement with the state that limited their liability to a fixed figure (cant remember what it was exactly but certainly in the tens of millions), but not a percentage as it should have been. So essentially the tax payer is now burdened with the payment, where the Church got away with a relatively small handout, when really they were largely responsible for the damage caused, not for the individual sick priests' actions but more for not putting a stop to it when they knew full well exactly what had gone on, often just moving the priest around to another school/parish. The Church was acting as an agent of the state, and messed up badly, but it is the state which now pays out the vast majority of the damages.

As far as priests being allowed to wed... of course they should. The people who point out that it would essentially split their time between family and church should look at the protestant priests/ministers/etc... to see its very possible. I mean, sure being a priest is difficult and time consuming, but their are harder/more time consuming jobs out their and lots of those people are somehow able to do both. ~:)

I didn't mean this as a slam on Ireland, the Irish Church, or Irish priests for that matter. Radier implied that it was just American priests abusing children and I was offering anecdotal evidence I'm aware of from at least one other place in the world. My guess is that there isn't a diocese in the world that doesn't have this problem. My apologies for any hurt feelings.

[Don Corleone]

i guess the implication of this question is that letting priests marry would reduce pedophilia and other evil acts of freakdom

wrong.

a pedophile freak is still a pedophile freak regardless of if he is married

if they want to reduce that then they need a much more competent screening process to keep the wolves in sheep's clothing out of the church in the first place

Wow! I never thought I would agree with Navaros 100% on anything, but here we are. You're absolutely correct sir.

[PyrrhusofEpirus]

a pedophile freak is still a pedophile freak regardless of if he is married A human being is still a human being regardless of being a priest. If his urge is being oppressed is more likely to express it, in worst way, by pedophilia.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If his urge is being oppressed is more likely to express it, in worst way, by pedophilia.

Priests are no more prone to pedophilia than any others though.

[Don Corleone]

There's plenty of healthy outlets for a priest's repressed sexuality if he decides he cannot meet his vows. A porn tape and a bottle of Jergin's (hand lotion) comes to mind. Heck, there's nothing that stops him from changing his clothes one night and going to a strip club and picking up a girl, if he decided that's what he wants.

The fact that an individual targets children has everything to do with him, by definition, being a pedophile, and he (or she) would most likely be doing just that regardless of where they found themselves in the job world.

[PanzerJaeger]

I dont buy into the idea that a grown man, denied the chance to have sexual relations with a grown woman, would turn to molesting a young boy. So therefore I dont believe that allowing Priests to marry would change the sex scandal statistics. From what Ive seen, child molestation doesnt result from sexual desperation.

[Don Corleone]

Not to mention, if the theory were true, wouldn't it hold that a majority of priests, all of whom are under this celibacy stricture, would be out there molesting children? The fact is, a tiny fraction of very prolific offenders that are creating all these victims.

I believe priests should be allowed to marry, but this particular issue is a red herring on the matter.

[Byzantine Prince]

I dont buy into the idea that a grown man, denied the chance to have sexual relations with a grown woman, would turn to molesting a young boy. So therefore I dont believe that allowing Priests to marry would change the sex scandal statistics. From what Ive seen, child molestation doesnt result from sexual desperation.


Indeed. The reason it DOES exist is that there are people out there who see joining the priesthood as a way to come into contact with young boys, in order to molest them. This is of course a very small minority.

[Lemur]

Priests are no more prone to pedophilia than any others though.
I've been doing some searching, and I haven't yet found a statistical comparison of pedophilia rates among priests vs. civilians. I did find this site, (http://www.priestsofdarkness.com/stats.html) which contains some reprints of the official Church's findings, including:

US clerics accused of abuse from 1950-2002: 4,392.
About 4% of the 109,694 serving during those 52 years.
Assuming those numbers are accurate (and you could make a good argument that they're inflated or deflated), that does seem high. There's no way 4% of regular adults are pedophiles.

However, if anyone can cite a comparison with some real data, I'm all ears.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well not quite what you asked for but depressing none the less


CHILD PORN

* More than 20,000 images of child pornography are posted on the Internet every week (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, 10/8/03).

* 140,000 child pornography images were posted to the Internet according to researchers who monitored the Internet over six weeks. Twenty children were estimated to have been abused for the first time and more than 1,000 images of each child created (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, 10/8/03).

* More than half of all illegal sites reported to the Internet Watch Foundation are hosted in the United States. Illegal sites in Russia have more than doubled from 286 to 706 in 2002 (National Criminal Intelligence Service, 8/21/03).

* Demand for pornographic images of babies and toddlers on the Internet is soaring (Prof. Max Taylor, Combating Paedophile Information Networks in Europe, March 2003).

* More babies and toddlers are appearing on the net and the abuse is getting worse. It is more torturous and sadistic than it was before. The typical age of children is between six and 12, but the profile is getting younger (Prof. Max Taylor, Combating Paedophile Information Networks in Europe, March 2003).

* Approximately 20 new children appear on the porn sites every month - many kidnapped or sold into sex (Combating Paedophile Information Networks in Europe, March 2003).

* In the last couple of years, we've just seen such young children on regular seizures - babies, 2-, 3-, 4-year-olds (Det. Sgt. Paul Gillespie, Toronto Police Force).

* The U.S. Customs Service estimates that there are more than 100,000 Web sites offering child pornography - which is illegal worldwide. Revenue estimates for the industry range from about $200 million to more than $1 billion per year. These unlawful sexual images can be purchased as easily as shopping at Amazon.com. "Subscribers" typically use credit cards to pay a monthly fee of between $30 and $50 to download photos and videos, or a one-time fee of a few dollars for single images. (Red Herring Magazine, 1/18/02)

* 345% increase in child pornography sites between 2/2001-7/2001. (N2H2 press release, 8/01)

* N2H2 reported 403 child porn sites, or 67 per month, for the six months of April to September 2000. Child porn sites rose dramatically for the six months of February to July 2001 to 1,391 or 231 per month. That's an increase of 345% at the rate of about 8 per day. (N2H2 Filtering Service Press Release, 8/8/01)

* 50 percent of those questioned for the Pew Internet and American Life survey ranked child pornography as the Internet crime that concerns them most. (The Pew Internet and American Life Project Survey conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates, 4/2/01)



ONLINE SEXUAL PREDATORS

* Internet pedophiles are increasingly adopting counter-intelligence techniques to protect themselves from being traced (National Criminal Intelligence Service, 8/21/03).

* Forty percent of people charged with child pornography also sexually abuse children, police say. But finding the predators and identifying the victims are daunting tasks (Reuters, 2003).

* One in five children who use computer chatrooms has been approached over the Internet by pedophiles. (Detective Chief Superintendent Keith Akerman, Telegraph.co.uk January 2002 )

* 89% of sexual solicitations were made in either chat rooms or Instant Messages. (Pew Study reported in JAMA, 2001)

* 13 million youth use Instant Messaging. (Pew Study reported in JAMA, 6/01)

* 1 in 5 received sexual solicitation or approach in last year. (Online Victimization, NCMEC, June 2000)

* 1 in 33 received AGGRESSIVE sexual solicitation (asked to meet, called them via phone, sent mail, money or gifts). Online Victimization, NCMEC, June 2000)

* 25% of youth who received sexual solicitation told a parent. (Online Victimization, NCMEC, June 2000)

* 1 in 4 kids participate in Real Time Chat. (FamilyPC Survey, 2000)

Things dont seem so rosey accordding to this. And this is just the internet.

LINK (http://www.protectkids.com/dangers/stats.htm)

Of course they could all be catholic priest ~D

[Don Corleone]

Will wonders never ceases. First Navaros, now Byzantine Prince. Canada Day should come more often, brings out the best in you canucks! ~;)

Anyway, I think BP is onto something here. If you look at active pedophiles, and their description of their own behavior, they sought out roles where they would have access to children. It's more a question of 'he's a priest because he's a pedophile', not vice-versa. So better screening processes, if such exist, would be helpful, IMHO.

[Krusader]

Catholic priests are allowed to marry. But in a strange way.

From 1980 on, any Protestant/Lutheran priest who converted to Catholicism could just take a short "crash-course" and be ordained as Catholic priest. If they're married, they are allowed to REMAIN married. This is something the Catholic Church doesn't want to comment on. I will try to find some sources to back this up.

Personally I think when whoever succeds Pope Benedict XVI might lift the celibacy issue, but not without much fight. Benedict XVI is very conservative, so he might not do it.
But a Irish friend told me that only 24 Irishmen applied for Theological studies this year and it's an all-time low. It might not be so serious in other Catholic countries, but the number of applicants seems to be shrinking.

[Quietus]

As said before, celibacy was only introduced in the 14th century or so as the Church did not want to parcel out property to the children of priests.
What's the best explanation for this?

a) Blame it on Satan for making children covet property.
b) It's an ongoing 700 year old experiment by 'god' on faith.
c) Prevention is always better than abortion.
d) Mortal life is overrated, it's all about the 'afterlife'.
e) God messed up and forgot the asexual humans in his 'intelligent design', but is not willing to rewind 4 billion years of time.
f) Religion and god are both an invention of man.
g) Gah! It's none of your business but Pope Benedict's!!

:charge:

[JAG]

Should priests marry?

More importantly - who cares?

[kiwitt]

Why not marry.

Marriage is usually entered into by two loving people. Why not let their love grow stronger so they can give even more to their church and their god.

[PyrrhusofEpirus]

It's hard to answer in so many quotes. Looking in dictionary, sort out with syntax, etc.
Anyway I'll give a try.

Priests are no more prone to pedophilia than any others though.I don't support this, but IMO you can't also support the opposite.There are no statistics for priests pedophilia AFAIK.
There's plenty of healthy outlets for a priest's repressed sexuality if he decides he cannot meet his vows. A porn tape and a bottle of Jergin's (hand lotion) comes to mind. This is how a non disorded person could counter urge, or at least has to do with the prospective pedophile, and his(her) apprehension, from preventing himself(herself) of harming the society. From the perspective of the victim's protection you can't rely, on this.
The fact that an individual targets children has everything to do with him, by definition, being a pedophile, and he (or she) would most likely be doing just that regardless of where they found themselves in the job world.A married priest could be a prevention from doing harm to society. Urges could be cut down in proportion.
I dont buy into the idea that a grown man, denied the chance to have sexual relations with a grown woman, would turn to molesting a young boy. So therefore I dont believe that allowing Priests to marry would change the sex scandal statistics. From what Ive seen, child molestation doesnt result from sexual desperation. Keep in mind that many priests are closely related with the church from their childhood. The choice to become a priest could be non of their own at all.
Not to mention, if the theory were true, wouldn't it hold that a majority of priests, all of whom are under this celibacy stricture, would be out there molesting children? The fact is, a tiny fraction of very prolific offenders that are creating all these victims. Agree in general.
:bow:

[Hurin_Rules]

Should Priests marry?

Sure, but they'll have to go to somewhere like Canada, that just legalized gay weddings. ~:cool:

[Lemur]

There are no statistics for priests pedophilia AFAIK.
Well, not unless you count the church's own findings, which I posted a link to earlier in the thread. 4% seems to be the magic number fo the U.S.A.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

A married priest could be a prevention from doing harm to society. Urges could be cut down in proportion.

A pedophile is a pedophile . Getting married isnt gonna change that any more than a gay getting married will make them straight.

[PyrrhusofEpirus]

A pedophile is a pedophile . Getting married isnt gonna change that any more than a gay getting married will make them straight.
A pedophile, priest or not, could be either straight (sexual orientation meaning), homosexual, or bisexual. Having sex is need. Pedophilia is a perversity, a vice, possible the worst one, not a need. All people have vices small or big, few or many, regardless of their sexual orientation. However, most of the people manage to keep under control their vices, by their will or by society's restrictions. If a person, generally speaking, has a normal sexual life, and satisfies his(her) need, it's far less probable to express his(her) vices.
:bow:

[bmolsson]

Why not ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

A pedophile, priest or not, could be either straight (sexual orientation meaning), homosexual, or bisexual. Having sex is need.

Its a need or a want but its not a neccisity. Besides as has been mentioned there are many ways to relive yourself sexualy without having sex with one of the opposite sex or a child or anyone else for that matter. If a person is attracted only to children getting married aint gonna change things.


Pedophilia is a perversity, a vice, possible the worst one, not a need.

Fir the pedophile its thesame need as you have with women. OK flame me if you like but I see very little difference between gats and pedophiles other than children are to young to consent. As far as the sex goes ones as perverted as the other. Same with beastiality.It ameazes me how people are so quick to point these forms of sexuality to be deviants but homosexuality is normal.


If a person, generally speaking, has a normal sexual life, and satisfies his(her) need

Having sex with an adult is not going to satisfy a pedophiles needs any more than a gay guy having sex with a women will satisfy his.