Ivar the Boneless

[amagi]

I'm considering making a new campaign for Viking invasion, and I'm trying to locate references.

The problem with the original VI campaign is that the AI Vikings are poor at raiding and have difficulty controlling the seas. The new campaign would correct that by having a large Viking force- Ivar's Great Army of 866- start the game in East Anglia. I wasn't going to mod the units or map at all, just the date and setup.

What I want is a map of England in 866, or a text description of the state of the 'heptarchy' when Ivar landed.

The war of 866, rather than the raid of 793, was when the Vikings almost conquered England. Ivar went north and captured York from the Northumbrians, who were fighting a civil war, then attacked Mercia, overrunning the east and north. Northumbria survived and the rest of Mercia was annexed by Wessex rather than by the Vikings, but Alfred of Wessex was very nearly defeated before England settled down to Anglo-Viking rule. Ivar died in Dublin in 872.

When the Vikings captured King Ella of Northumbria, who had executed Ivar's father Ragnar Lodbrok by having him thrown into a snake pit, they made a ritual 'blood eagle' sacrifice of him. Total War isn't offensive enough, we should have this, or the ability to display the heads of defeated family members (like the Romans made use of Hadsrubal after his death), as the equivalent of a 'diplomatic snub'.

[antisocialmunky]

VI would be better with a bigger map.

[CountMRVHS]

Don't know where you'll find a map that details the kind of thing you're looking for, as nobody really knows exactly what areas were under whose control at the time. Fortunately there are a lot of good sources out there which give a rough idea of how things may have looked. Just have a look on amazon or the library; I do all my research in book form (as opposed to internet) so all I can do is recommend these books:

The Anglo-Saxons, James Campbell, Ed.
Mercia and the Making of England
Osprey books like: Anglo-Saxon Thegn; and Arthur and the Anglo-Saxon Wars

On another note, one thing you might consider is a very simple change in the startpos file of the Viking campaign. There's an area where you can set the Faction Behaviour. The Vikings are set to BARBARIAN_RAIDER, and thus are always bombarding other factions with tiny armies that will never hold the lands they conquer. Maybe, in combination with other changes, try changing their behavior to CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST or ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST (AFAIK the religion doesn't matter here; you can, for example, change the Welsh to BARBARIAN_RAIDER even though they're Catholic.... it actually makes for a rather interesting first few years if you're Mercia!). Maybe one of those possibilities will lead to them building more logical empires and thus getting stronger.

Also, just giving the Vikings some extra buildings might help. Once I tried this and gave them a trader building in Jutland and Hordaland, as well as a total of 12 Snekkjas and 10000 florins to start.

Good luck!

CountMRVHS

[antisocialmunky]

Well, I just liked to think that taking two armies and cutting England in half is kinda... well... unrealistic.

[Grey_Fox]

How can it be unrealistic when it happened in real life?

[Eternal Champion]

:dizzy2: LOL - That's a great sig :laugh4:

[antisocialmunky]

How can it be unrealistic when it happened in real life?

Well... let me rephrase that as I was thinking more specifically aobut the Vikings. I just don't like the idea that a few hundred vikings can effectively hold about 120 km long strip of land and stop everyone who comes.

Though, I'm not well versed in the Viking era so I'll defer to you Foxy.

That is a nice sig.

Oh, and here's a chunk of post 866(I don't know how much it'll help you)map fo you:

http://www.maisonstclaire.org/maps/england_after_866.html

[amagi]

Thanks for the faction behaviour advice, CountMRVHS. What happened when you gave the Vikings traders and extra ships and money?

Ivar was King of Dublin and brought his part of the Great Army from there, so there should also be a Viking presence in Ireland.

The lords of Kent and Essex had been badly beaten by the Vikings in the 850's and stayed neutral. The kingdom of East Anglia gave provisions and quarters to the Great Army but wasn't actually conquered until after the capture of York. It might be better to start the Vikings in York, with the Northumbrians about to make the attempt to retake the city that cost them both their kings.

[Grey_Fox]

Well when the Ivar and Ubba first invaded Northumbria in 866, their army numbered around 800 men. When they invaded East Anglia they had about 1200 men, and when the invaded Mercia they had 1500 or so, and these numbers are easily made up in game as it is.

The sig is nice, however I cannot take the credit for it, as I was graciously allowed to use it by a guy named Obake, and unfortunately the quality was decreased in order to be less hard on 56k modems.

[amagi]

The Vikings also ruled Manau from the mid-ninth century on, and used it as a haven when they were driven out of Ireland. If the Vikings control Dere, Brega and Manau in 866, they can finance their original seven starting units and have some change left over, but that doesn't help when costing the Great Army and garrisons in Man and Ireland.

The problem in the original game is that the Vikings have unimproved homelands and a large current deficit which means that the AI can't afford to buy units or buildings. The Picts, Mercians and Saxons have large surpluses, allowing them to build quickly and making the Vikings much less fearsome.

The Great Army was successful not because of numbers but because the Vikings murdered the ruling elites of the lands they conquered, leaving the population without the means to finance or organise armies, and possibly little worse off, despite the depredations. Their numbers are often said to have been about two or three thousand. I haven't discovered a figure as low as Grey_Fox's eight hundred, and I have come across estimates of as many ten thousand, which would give them about twice the numbers of the population of the large towns of the time.

Also, the Vikings had several leaders, which would mean four or five Huscarl units, very expensive, even if the supporting units are the cheaper Carls. Has anyone got a suggestion as to how many real raiders or peasants each Viking Invasion fighting man is meant to represent?

[amagi]

There are other map changes from 793.

Wessex crushed Dumnonia by 800, though Cornwall was independent to 920.

Most of Wales was united under Rhodri 'Mawr' ( 'the Great' ).

The Picts were defeated by the Vikings in a battle in 839 and most of the Pictish nobility were killed or murdered. The rest were killed by the Scots, and in 866 Constantine I of Scotland is the king of the Picts and Scots, though the Vikings control the west coast down to the Clyde and all the territory west of Moray Firth. Constantine's territory is limited to Dalriada, Aberdeenshire and the central highlands.

The Irish are a problem, since the High Kingship is alternating between the north and Brega, where Teamhair (Tara) is located, but Brega is also the best province to represent the Viking presence in Dublin. Perhaps the Vikings should have Leinster instead.

[antisocialmunky]

Why don't we set Viking unit upkeep to zero and only give the boats upkeep? That would be challenging if the Vikings came in force.

That or we could give the Vikings a special building that generates enough cash per turn to support X amount of vikings?

[amagi]

Barocca's Beefy Vikings have two silver mines, as well as four more snekkjas, and an extra castle with additional buildings to match. Their behaviour is still set to 'Barbarian Raider', though, and they don't get more at start florins.

Ivar becomes 'Yngvar' in Viking Invasion. I have yet to work out the mysteries of the 'heroes' file, but one regret is that Constantine's uncle and predecessor didn't make it to 866. He was known as Donald 'the wanton son of the foreign woman'. Very regal. A modern translation might be 'deliberately unsupervised playground for technology'.

[antisocialmunky]

I'd use the old translations to keep some immersion.

[amagi]

The reverse isn't true though- you never lose immersion when you translate a modern style into an older one..

I've finished 'The Great Army' and I'm beginning a test campaign. One problem that I've still got is that I can't get Yngvar and his brother to appear with the Viking starting forces in York, and I can't get Alfred as Aethelred's heir. The heirs problem might be insoluble, as Viking Invasion follows primogeniture whereas the succession in the actual British kingdoms of the Dark Ages was more complicated and tended to the selection of the best available royal candidate. Alfred was actually Aethelred's younger brother.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, TW is about changing history. And if you really really try, I bet you can suicide a royal Viking Huscarle unit into a bunch of kerns or something.

[amagi]

It's possible to retain immersion when using a metaphor from the past but not one from the future, then?

I suppose if I wanted to have royal bodyguards overwhelmed by peasants I would leave them alone in a low loyalty province to fight large numbers of rebels, which would be quite easy to arrange, but I don't follow what antisocialmunky's analogy is about.

Enuff wid der philosophy. Apart from not having noticed any famous heroes appearing as generals, I'm happy with 'The Great Army'. I've left the Viking strategy as 'Barbarian_raider', as it's difficult for them to hold territory for long because of religious differences. Making them Christian two centuries early might work, if you were prepared to put up with references to the 'Salvation Army'.

The Vikings of 'The Great Army' often hold much of the east coast in the late ninth century and are a menace and a naval superpower until 1066, even without silver mines in Scandinavia. I've increased the amount of tradeable goods, which is to the advantage of the Vikings since their control of trade was the main reason for its general decline in the Dark Ages, and I've also added custom unit and building production, to help all the factions. The finished campaign shouldn't overwrite or affect the original, however.

[Satyr]

I have been playing a Pict campaign with Beefy Vikings loaded. Here is what I think would really help the Vikings in addition to what has already been done. They never further develop their economic buildings so I would start those even higher than beefy does. I would also change them to be 'expansionists' instead of 'raiders'. They are indeed a serious pain in the a$$ in Beefy, but they never grow so eventually they get overwhelmed. If they took and held and developed just a few additional provinces it would help them a lot. If they could take over Ireland entirely, along with Manua and Domon then they would stay formidable until the end game and would actually have a chance to win. Getting them to do that is a whole nother issue though. Good luck, I look forward to playing your mod. If you need someone to test for you, just ask.

[amagi]

Satyr, I've changed the Viking unit and building production and given them the highest level of farm improvements, since the success of raids led to migrations because of the lack of land in Scandinavia. Beefy uses silver mines to give the Vikings an economic advantage that I'm trying to get by trading, since they control the seas.

The faction behaviour setting doesn't seem to ensure that the Vikings hold territory. The problem is that the setting is affected by hardcoded factors, one of which seems to be the Viking conversion to Christianity. The 'expansionist' behaviours just puzzle the Great Army, until they start raiding again.

Thanks for offering to playtest. I should be ready to release a first version after the weekend.

[amagi]

I've finished 'The Great Army' and it can be downloaded from the 'latest Medieval uploads' section of this site ( beyond 'upload a file' ). I haven't used a link, since the files will eventually be moved to be with the other campaigns. The only original file which will be overwritten is loc/startpos, to add the description of the campaign.

This is the Campaign Guide from the ReadMe:

Campaign Guide

The campaign is intended to be played at the expert level of difficulty. It begins in 867, with the Great Army in possession of York, and ends in 1016, when Cnut's invasion and conquest made England part of his Viking kingdom.

Irish- harder than the level chosen. The Irish are poor and divided amongst themselves. It may not be difficult to expel the Vikings from Dublin, but they will still retain control of the seas. The Saxons are building a navy as well.

Mercians- easier than the level chosen. The Mercians are still wealthy and powerful in 866, if no longer the overlords of England. Though that wealth is sure to tempt the dangerous Great Army, just to the north, the Mercian provinces are inland and are not as vulnerable to sea-borne raids as those of Wessex.

Northumbrians- much harder than the level chosen. If the Northumbrians accept the loss of Dere, they become much weaker- if they attempt to retake it they risk a catastrophe.

Saxons- much easier than the level chosen. Since 825 Wessex has been the leading kingdom of England. However, the kingdom is not organised for war and there are no ships to guard the vulnerable east and south coasts. The war in the north reduces the risk of Viking raids, allowing the Saxons to prosper in peace, for a time.

Scots- harder than the level chosen. After decades of civil war and treachery most of Scotland is at last united under one king. A prudent Scottish ruler can use the Great Army as an opportunity to deal with the weaker Vikings to the north, the English kingdoms on the lowland territory to the south and any rebels or resurgent Picts.

Vikings- much easier than the level chosen. Seapower has brought the Vikings territory all over Britain, but the less wealthy outposts have to be defended whilst England is plundered.

Welsh- harder than the level chosen. The Welsh have a long land border to defend against the Mercians, who may renew their attacks on their oldest enemy, despite the Viking threat.