Al Qaeda

[Proletariat]

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-07/07/content_457925.htm


Qaeda says will kill Egypt's Iraq envoy
(Agencies)
Updated: 2005-07-07 08:42

An Al Qaeda death sentence hung over Egypt's hostage envoy to Iraq on Wednesday as the new Iraqi government appealed to embassies not to desert Baghdad after a series of attacks on senior diplomats.

Egypt's Ihab el-Sherif, snatched four days ago, appeared to have fallen into the hands of al Qaeda's Iraq wing when it issued photographs of his personal documents. The group, which has beheaded previous captives, then issued a statement on a Web site entitled "Sharp sword against the infidels' ambassador":

"The sharia court of al Qaeda Organization in Iraq has decided to hand the apostate, the ambassador of Egypt, which is allied to Jews and Christians to the mujahideen to ... kill him," said the group, led by Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

I just don't get it.

:blankg:

[Ser Clegane]

These guys are not killing for a cause anymore - the killing has become their cause...

[The_Doctor]

Egypt is not fighting the west, so they are a target.

[CBR]

Egypt's goverment is considered to be corrupt and pro western so has to be fought.

edit: Ayman al-Zawahri was part of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad group who's goal was to overthrow the Egyptian government.


CBR

[Don Corleone]

NPR was saying it was because Egypt was one step away from recognizing the Iraqi government. This murder was a warning to the Arab world that any governments that recognize Iraq's government can expect much of the same.

[Proletariat]

Who the hell are these people fighting for if even Arabic blood isn't sacred?
It's complete madness.

[Don Corleone]

This has nothing to do with blood or life. It's about power. As long as there's places in the world that aren't under Islamic fundamentalist rule, these jokers will be running around doing these things.

[CBR]

Who the hell are these people fighting for if even Arabic blood isn't sacred?
It's complete madness.

They are extremists that want an Islamic state. And that means killing other Arabs as they just see them as being corrupted and therefore legitimate targets.


CBR

[Franconicus]

Extremists hate their own countrymen if they work for the 'enemy'. They hate them even more than the enemy. :no:

[JAG]

Who the hell are these people fighting for if even Arabic blood isn't sacred?
It's complete madness.

They are fighting for their own extremist cause, as stated many times by people here at the org, it is not the same as what all the muslim people in the Middle East want, probably not even a majority of what people in the Middle East want. Which is why you should not go around threatening invasion and death for country regimes to 'stop the spread' because it causes more problems.

[econ21]

Who the hell are these people fighting for if even Arabic blood isn't sacred?

How many Iraqis (Arabs) have been killed by Al Qaeda and related insurgents? Far more than the number of non-Arabs killed, I suspect. The "war on terror" is not really about New York, Madrid or London. Al Qaeda's goals are primarily confined to the Islamic world: they want to establish extreme Islamic governments in Algeria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia etc. The West is just being targeted because it supports the existing regimes in those countries. If that support collapses, there's a chance of Iran 1979 type takeovers. The fact that Al Qaeda and fundamentalist Shiite Iran are opposed to each other only underlines the internecine nature of AQs agenda.

[lars573]

Actually there goal is to restore the Caliphate of early Islam. Plus all the areas that are Islamic now.

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/lars573/Veritech/islam-05.gif
This is the the caliphate. Add to that the caucasian region of Russia, Pakistan, Sicily, the Balkan states and Turkey, and the centeral Asian stan nations.

[Don Corleone]

You don't really believe they'll stop there, do you?

They want the world under Sharia, with them as the mullahs hearing each case. Nothing less will satisfy them.

[JAG]

You don't really believe they'll stop there, do you?

They want the world under Sharia, with them as the mullahs hearing each case. Nothing less will satisfy them.

Where have they stated they want to take over the world? I never have heard that, quite the opposite. They have stated that if states act like Sweden and don't interfere in the Middle East, then they will not interfere with the west. That clearly isn't acceptable but still it is wrong to state 'they want to take over the world'.

[Franconicus]

This discussion is foolish. Do they want to restore the Kalifat or conquer the whole world? Every scenario is bad. An we should stop them here and now.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Where have they stated they want to take over the world? I never have heard that, quite the opposite

Then you dont read whats posted on these boards. Ive been telling you this since I got here. Would you like me to post Bin Ladens letter to America again? His first demand is that we all convert to Islam.

[IliaDN]

Who the hell are these people fighting for if even Arabic blood isn't sacred?
It's complete madness.
Well as far as I know they fight for true muslims

[Proletariat]

How many Iraqis (Arabs) have been killed by Al Qaeda and related insurgents?

I'm aware, I was asking out of exasperation.

[Steppe Merc]

Are most Iraqis and Iranis Arabic? I know it's nitpicking, but I had always assumed that while some had Arabic blood, there was still a lot of Iranian and Turkish blood...
Just wondering, doesn't really have anything to do with the topic.

[CBR]

CIA world factbook:

Iran:Persian 51%, Azeri 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1%

Iraq:Arab 75%-80%, Kurdish 15%-20%, Turkoman, Assyrian or other 5%


CBR

[Don Corleone]

Then you dont read whats posted on these boards. Ive been telling you this since I got here. Would you like me to post Bin Ladens letter to America again? His first demand is that we all convert to Islam.

Actually, yes I would like you to post it again. Might remind people who we're dealing with.

[Steppe Merc]

Ok, thanks. Hmm, I had assumed Iraq would have more Iranian (Persian is one way to call it I suppose, though Persians were just a group of the Iranian stock) blood.
But thanks for clearing that up. :bow:

[econ21]

Actually, yes I would like you to post it again. Might remind people who we're dealing with.

I really don't think we should give over any of the Org's space to that piece of work. But Gawain's post did give me cause to look it up:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

I would tend to pay more attention to the first half of the letter, listing all the specific grudges he cites as cassus belli. But Gawain is right about the second half, which is a pretty general rant against the West.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Actually, yes I would like you to post it again. Might remind people who we're dealing with.

Your wish is my command

~D


(Q2) (Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

Pretty much says it all


complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion

You cant even have a contrary opinion. You must submit totaly to his brand of Islam. Who are they killing in Iraq, other Muslims because their not radical enough.

Entire Letter (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html)

[Don Corleone]

Gawain's almost right. The first thing he says is praise be to Allah.

The second is, whoever fights on their side is justified, because they do it in the name of Allah. Anyone who doesn't believe in Allah is a friend of Taghut (apparently the Arabic name for Satan) and deserves whatever they get.

He then goes into a screed about how he's pissed about how people are resisting Islamic fundamentalism: Russia in Chenchnya, America in Israel/Palestine, America & Israel in Lebanon, India in Kashmir, et al. Essentially, let us do whatever we want, wherever we want, or we'll continue to kill innocents.

After a lot of babbling along these lines, he claims that Gitmo really ticked him off. Couldn't have been that high a priority, because he'd already ranted for 2 pages before he mentioned it.

Then he answers the question "What does Al Queda want from the West, in order to stop the violence". Answer number 1 was convert to Islam. Answer #2 is adopt Sharia.

Doesn't sound to me like he, or they, are in this to be peacefully left alone.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well Jag and others keep saying we should try to understand why they do what they do and I keep telling them I understand it only too well. Hes not vague here. The problem is you all dont think he means what he says. His actions speak otherwise.

[Tribesman]

I just don't get it.
Who does ?.....Its all mad .
"The sharia court of al Qaeda Organization in Iraq has decided to hand the apostate, the ambassador of Egypt, which is allied to Jews and Christians to the mujahideen to ... kill him,"
But there is some reasoning in the madness (though I don't think reasoning is the right word) .
Egypt was the first arab/Muslim nation to formalise relations with the new Iraqi Governmnt and the first to appoint an ambassador . Then their is the peace treaty and recognition of the State of Israel . Then there is the massive funding that Egypt recieves from the West to keep their President in power while he bans political opposition and imprisions any politicians that upset him .
To the fundamentalists these are all signs that Egypt is an enemy and must be attacked .
As the fundamentalists are basically insane and aim to spread terror everywhere , then what better way to spread terror than to show that they can strike anyone anywhere .
So its all mad and beyond reason , but there is some reasoning in the insanity .

[King of Atlantis]

These guys are just plain out scary.

[Don Corleone]

Tribesman,
I completely agree with your assessment. When you stop looking at their actions as though they're bent on political or monetary gain, and consider "Gee, if I wanted to subjugate the word to my particular brand of religion, how would I go about it", their actions make a lot more sense. No political body would ever be your true ally. They would fear you, as a destablizing force, and you would hate them, because they would be corrupt... focusing on temporal power and not 'the cause'. Scary fact I learned today... over 80% of the mosques in the USA receiving funding from Wahabist families back in Saudi Arabia.

[BDC]

These guys are just plain out scary.
Yes.

*shudder*

People like this still exist in the 21st century! Why didn't they all die out with the Crusades...

[Papewaio]

Tribesman,
Scary fact I learned today... over 80% of the mosques in the USA receiving funding from Wahabist families back in Saudi Arabia.

2 things.

The House of Saud is amazingly rich and are Wahabists.

Al Qaeda hates the House of Saud.


Al-Qaida also has its origins in a particular nationalist struggle; namely, rebellion against the royal family of Saudi Arabia. The Saudi regime is perceived as being too closely associated with American foreign policy, particularly through its support of the US liberation of Kuwait during the first Gulf War. Since Al-Qaida's ideology is one of pan-Islamic nationalism and solidarity, the Saudi regime was thereafter seen as insufficiently Islamic; although such a view is bewildering to Westerners, who cannot imagine anything more 'Islamic' than the country's Wahhabi brand of Islamic law. To Al-Qaida in particular, the world is viewed as a struggle as their Islamic ideology versus a secular Western ideology. This view of the world has ironically been strengthened by the War on Terror.


Wahhabism
Perhaps the most influential strain of thought, however, came from the Wahhabi movement in Saudi Arabia. The Wahhabists, who emerged in the 18th century led by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, also believed that it was necessary to live according to the strict dictates of Islam, which they interpreted to mean living in the manner that the prophet Muhammad and his followers had lived in during the seventh century in Medina. Consequently they were opposed to many innovations developed since that time, including the minaret, marked graves, and later television and radios. The Wahhabis also considered those Muslims who violated their strict interpretation to be heretics, and thus used violence against other Muslims. When King Abdul Aziz al-Saud founded Saudi Arabia, he brought the Wahhabists into power with him. With Saud's rise to prominence, Wahhabism spread, especially following the 1973 oil embargo and the glut of oil wealth that resulted for Saudi Arabia. The Wahhabists were proseltyizers, and made use of their wealth to spread their interpretation of Islam far and wide.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

It sounds like an "extremist Moslem Civil War." Was that supposed to make me feel better about this:


over 80% of the mosques in the USA receiving funding from Wahabist families back in Saudi Arabia.

[ichi]

I just don't get it.

:blankg:

of course you don't , its insanity

ichi :bow:

[Don Corleone]

2 things.

The House of Saud is amazingly rich and are Wahabists.

Al Qaeda hates the House of Saud.

Yeah, but all of the madrases in Pakistan & Afghanistan that trained Al Queda were Wahabist. It sounds like you've got two powerful Wahabist groups: the house of Saud & Al Queda, fighting over who wields the more pure form of their extremism. Talk about a Gordian knot...

[Papewaio]

The worst battles are always ironically named Civil Wars...

[Don Corleone]

It's not a civil war, as their efforts against each other are rather limited. I don't know exactly what you'd call what's going on over there, other than... ugly.

[Steppe Merc]

So does the type of Islam that Al Quedia and co. have a name? If it isn't Wahhabism, what is it? I know that bin Laden wants everyone to follow the "true" Islam, but does that even have a name?

[Don Corleone]

So does the type of Islam that Al Quedia and co. have a name? If it isn't Wahhabism, what is it? I know that bin Laden wants everyone to follow the "true" Islam, but does that even have a name?

It is Wahabism. That was my point. You have two factions within this particular sect that orignally were in a symbiotic relationship but have come as far as they can together and have turned on each other. But make no mistake about it, the mullahs over in Saudi Arabia don't sound all that different than the letters you receive just after an Al Queda attack.

This all finally makes sense to me, and my apologies to Faisal, Bmolsson and any other Muslim I've offended in the course of stumbling through trying to figure this all out. Most of you probably aren't even in this Wahabist school, let alone the faction of it that's trying to carry out armed conflict with the rest of the planet. I was wrong in my generalizations, and I hope, with your help, to limit that in the future. ~:bow:

[kiwitt]

Extremists hate their own countrymen if they work for the 'enemy'. They hate them even more than the enemy. :no: I agree.

I can still remember in Northern Ireland when one religious group attacked another's religious group's children who just trying to get to school. And they were still their own countrymen.

[JimBob]

What they're doing makes perfect sense. They want the Iraqi government to fall, they want it destabilized and isolated. So to do that you chase the diplomats out the government collapses and the extremist Mullahs, self righteous monkeys that they are, move in seize power, and stone people for adultery.

[Tribesman]

stone people for adultery.
Stoning for adultery .... thats nothing , they are shooting barbers for shaving people .... f*****g crazy .

[Don Corleone]

Huh, yeah, and yet somehow, a lot of you on the Left think there's a way to placate these jokers. If only we could do the right thing... say the right words...

Let me tell you something, we are the wrong race, wrong creed and wrong language group to ever be accepted by these guys. They don't accept Bosnians, who've been Muslim for over 600 years, they sure as shit ain't gonna make peace with us. (Wahabists that is)

[Tribesman]

Huh, yeah, and yet somehow, a lot of you on the Left think there's a way to placate these jokers.
No , a lot of people think the way is to isolate these sickos and stop giving the less sick jokers reasons to jump on the bandwagon with the real evil bastards .

[Steppe Merc]

I think I'd probably have to agree with you, Don. They don't seem to have any logical demands or anything. It's not like traditional terrorists, that have demands, or (often very weak, to be sure) political motives. It's more of a "kill everyone we don't like" sort of thing, I think.

[King of Atlantis]

Don Corleone,

Being in North Carolina im sure you know about that weed that grows uncontrollably over entire forest(cant remmember the name). The harder people try to cut it down, the faster it grows. Until we find a chemical that kills this plant off there is little hope of stopping its spread.

This plant reminds me of the war on terror. We have this bad weed. So were are trying to cut it away before it spreads, but this weed is just growing. We can be on a war on terror for all our lives, but the radicals will probably never be defeated. Sure you cant rationalize with people like osmama bin laden, but the is obviously a reason for people turning out like that. They are growing up in an enviroment of propogana and hate. Until we fix what is making these terrorist, then there will continue being terrorist.

:bow:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

2 things.

The House of Saud is amazingly rich and are Wahabists.

Al Qaeda hates the House of Saud.

One more thing. Bin Laden is a prince of the house of Saudi. Its more like a family squabal.


They are growing up in an enviroment of propogana and hate. Until we fix what is making these terrorist, then there will continue being terrorist.

And that enviroment of propogana and hate is radical Islam. How do you suggest we fix it?

[Don Corleone]

Tribesman,
I've been going around and around on this all day. Seems to me that by playing up to them, all you do is shift their marketing message, not the marketing itself.

Tell me, after they bombed the Khobar towers (1996), and we didn't do anything but wring our hands, did they have recruitment problems?

And after the blew up two of our embassies (1998), and again, no response, did that seem to slow them down?

I GOT IT!!! We'll take a direct hit on a destroyer (2000), and limit ourselves to tough talk! That should do it... Nope, cause the very next year, they try again. But this time, we retaliate.... and all of a sudden, we're the one's causing the trouble.

Sorry man, you're gonna have to do better than that.

[Don Corleone]

Don Corleone,

Being in North Carolina im sure you know about that weed that grows uncontrollably over entire forest(cant remmember the name). The harder people try to cut it down, the faster it grows. Until we find a chemical that kills this plant off there is little hope of stopping its spread.

This plant reminds me of the war on terror. We have this bad weed. So were are trying to cut it away before it spreads, but this weed is just growing. We can be on a war on terror for all our lives, but the radicals will probably never be defeated. Sure you cant rationalize with people like osmama bin laden, but the is obviously a reason for people turning out like that. They are growing up in an enviroment of propogana and hate. Until we fix what is making these terrorist, then there will continue being terrorist.
:bow:

It's called Kudzu. And I agree, you don't fertilize the crap. You don't keep sending money and arms to it's source (Saudi Arabia). But you also don't let it grow over your house and tear it apart while you're trying to figure out a cure.

Look folks, this is simple. We're not going to find a way to force them to change their belief structure. Even if there was a way, and I honestly don't believer there is one, we are not the messengers. Listen to what Bin Laden says. Gawain's right. He's not playing around.... Convert to Islam, implment Sharia, accept your role as our servants, there is no other way. You know what, he's right, there is no other way. Just 2, him or us. I'm for us.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What I really find strange is those on the left who say we need to understand these bastards and negogiate with them would be the first ones to be executed if these guys took over. Can you imagine Jag and the rest of you non religous people posting your views on god with these people in charge. Isalmo Facshists once more are the best example I know of conservatism taken to extremes. Its truly frightning. You liberals would be toast just for thinking what you think.

[Papewaio]

Wikipedia:


Osama Bin Laden was born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, to Muhammad Awad bin Ladin, a wealthy businessman involved in construction and with close ties to the Saudi royal family. There is no definitive account of the number of children born to Mohammed bin Laden, but the number is generally put at 54. In addition, various accounts place Osama as his seventeenth son, while others say he was the last of 25 sons.


After Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990, bin Laden offered to help defend Saudi Arabia (with 12,000 armed men) but was rebuffed by the Saudi government. Bin Laden publicly denounced his government's dependence on the U.S. military and demanded an end to the presence of foreign military bases in the country. According to reports (by the BBC and others), the 1990/91 deployment of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia in connection with the Gulf War profoundly shocked and revolted bin Laden and other Islamist militants because the Saudi government claims legitimacy based on their role as guardians of the sacred Muslim cities of Mecca and Medina. After the Gulf War, the establishment of permanent bases for non-Muslim U.S. forces in Saudi Arabia continued to undermine the Saudi rulers' legitimacy and inflamed anti-government Islamist militants, including bin Laden. Bin Laden's increasingly strident criticisms of the Saudi monarchy led the government to expel him to Sudan in 1991.


His immensely wealthy family publicly disowned him in 1994, shortly before the Saudi Arabian government revoked his citizenship. He attended his son's wedding in January 2001, but since 9/11 is believed only to have had contact with his mother on one occasion.

Not a prince of the house of Saud. Nor particularly well liked by them for quite a period before 2001.

[King of Atlantis]

Gawain,

It is hopless to try to reason with the terrorist. Terrorism is a crime that is punishable by death. But killing terrorist only slows the problem as more terrorist are being raised up to hate.

The answer is to put pressure on the governments that allow this kind hate to run free. If these governments dont take care of their trash then there is no hope.

[Don Corleone]

With all due respect, KOA, what do you think we've been doing for the past 4 years? I am not a believer in the death penalty, and I do not see killing terrorists as a matter of justice. It is a matter of survival. Much the same way your body kills a virus or is killed by it, we either win or we die.

[King of Atlantis]

Well i think what i said is exaxtly what we WERE doing, until we got side traked by a place called Iraq. How many highjackers were from Iraq? Have we caught Osma? Have we destroyed Al Qaeda?

My point, is many conservatives,cough*gawain*cough, are saying that many on the left want to reason with the terrorist. We dont want to reason with the terrorist, but we/I do want to reason with the potential terrorist, before the become completely mad like Al Qaeda.

[Tribesman]

You liberals would be toast just for thinking what you think.
So are you planning on converting to save being turned into toast aswell Gawain .
Go on become a true conservative , you know you want to really ~D



. Seems to me that by playing up to them, all you do is shift their marketing message, not the marketing itself.
Playing up to who Don ?
Stop givng them a marketing message , and god knows that they have been able to get enough marketing messages to spew out as propoganda in the last few decades .
If the only message they could put out was convert to our form of barbarous Islam or die , how much support do you think they would get , how many people would flock to the banner ? Not a lot at all .
Instead they are getting drip fed the very stuff they need to grow .

[Don Corleone]

Actually, I agree with Gawain on this point, and I've been saying there is no reasoning with these people. I dont' mean that as an insult to you or your beliefs, but I don't think you understand what we're dealing with.

Osama bin Laden ordered a suicide bombing in Mecca during the Hajj when they allowed Bosnians in to take part. This would be the equivalent of the Knights of Columbus letting off a bomb in the Vatican because the Pope granted an audience to Coptic Christians. You are not Middle Eastern. You never will be. You don't have the right chromosonal structure. In their eyes, the best you can hope for is a life of obediant servitude to them, under Sharia. Is that what you're trying to negotiate?

I've said this until I'm blue in the face, but for you, KOA, because I like you, one more time. Al Queda had members long before we did anything to them. Al Queda's members are not poor. Al Queda's members come from oppressive and fairly representative governments. Al Queda is not looking to establish a stronghold. Complete and utter capitulation. That is what they seek. Nothing less will appease them. Even being a moderate but devout muslim is not good enough in their eyes...they've killed more of these poor souls than anyone else.

These people aren't doing these things just to scare us, and they're not doing them to score 'glory points'. These are opening salvos. We either stop them, or we let them grow.

[bmolsson]

I believe that Al Qaida is isolating itself with the increasing senceless killings. The secular youth in the Arab world will in the end win.....

[Tribesman]

We either stop them, or we let them grow.
Yes , but at the moment you are not stopping them are you ?
Instead you are feeding them with miracle grow .

[Kanamori]

And that enviroment of propogana and hate is radical Islam. How do you suggest we fix it?

It may be a crazy idea, but perhaps that is what Iraq is for, once it is stable and has its own democracy independent of our own...someone needs to fight them that is not a Western power, or a power established by the west.

[Don Corleone]

Playing up to who Don ?
Stop givng them a marketing message , and god knows that they have been able to get enough marketing messages to spew out as propoganda in the last few decades .
If the only message they could put out was convert to our form of barbarous Islam or die , how much support do you think they would get , how many people would flock to the banner ? Not a lot at all .
Instead they are getting drip fed the very stuff they need to grow .

Everything we do offends them. Our very existence offends them. Yes, they'll find it easier or harder to recruit based on whether we defend ourselves or we just let them do what they will, but even if we stood by, after attack, after attack, as we did for a full decade in the 90's, they had no problems finding recruits. There is no sating their hate for us. They wish us dead or enslaved. There is no middle ground, my friend.

[Don Corleone]

We either stop them, or we let them grow.
Yes , but at the moment you are not stopping them are you ?
Instead you are feeding them with miracle grow .

If the invasion of Iraq caused the terrorism that has happened since March, 2003, what caused all of what came before? Is it always our fault? If it is, is there any point to this discussion?

[lars573]

So does the type of Islam that Al Quedia and co. have a name? If it isn't Wahhabism, what is it? I know that bin Laden wants everyone to follow the "true" Islam, but does that even have a name?

Islam being of a disestablished nature has many sects, of which Wahhabism is just one. It is derived from the Sunni branch of Islam. Sunni and Shiite beliefs are the Catholic and Orthodox churches of Islam.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Sunni and Shiite beliefs are the Catholic and Orthodox churches of Islam.

And more christains were killed fighting stupidly over the same god just like their doing. And other than Ireland recent past we have stopped. But no branch of christianity backs killing unblievers or demands all the world submit to them.

[King of Atlantis]

Osama bin Laden ordered a suicide bombing in Mecca during the Hajj when they allowed Bosnians in to take part. This would be the equivalent of the Knights of Columbus letting off a bomb in the Vatican because the Pope granted an audience to Coptic Christians. You are not Middle Eastern. You never will be. You don't have the right chromosonal structure. In their eyes, the best you can hope for is a life of obediant servitude to them, under Sharia. Is that what you're trying to negotiate?

I have already said that you cant negotiate with him or any other terrorist for that matter. What im trying to say is that we need to fight their propaganda. Imagine being a child and growing in an enviroment, where everyone around hates the west and believes killing is a way to convert. This is the kind of enviroment we must try to eliminate


I've said this until I'm blue in the face, but for you, KOA, because I like you, one more time. Al Queda had members long before we did anything to them. Al Queda's members are not poor. Al Queda's members come from oppressive and fairly representative governments. Al Queda is not looking to establish a stronghold. Complete and utter capitulation. That is what they seek. Nothing less will appease them. Even being a moderate but devout muslim is not good enough in their eyes...they've killed more of these poor souls than anyone else.

I agree with this, but right now they seem to only be growing.


KOA, because I like you, one more time.

yah! someone likes me :charge:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Imagine being a child and growing in an enviroment, where everyone around hates the west and believes killing is a way to convert. This is the kind of enviroment we must try to eliminate

And just how would you achieve this in a closed society where there are thought and religous police?

I think this is why we really invaded Iraq and why the terrorists fight so hard to stop democracy and freedom from taking hold there.

[King of Atlantis]

And just how would you achieve this in a closed society where there are thought and religous police?

I think this is why we really invaded Iraq and why the terrorists fight so hard to stop democracy and freedom from taking hold there.

The thing is Iraq was not nearly as bad as many other countries.

Christian were allowed to freely worship.

At this thing in my church, a photographer/preacher came and showed us his pictures of when he visited Iraq. In the middle of Baghdad was a church with a huge cross on it. Pre-War Iraq had freedom of religion, where christians didnt have to hide. How many other middle eastern countreis can this be said about.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The thing is Iraq was not nearly as bad as many other countries.

Christian were allowed to freely worship.

At this thing in my church, a photographer/preacher came and showed us his pictures of when he visited Iraq. In the middle of Baghdad was a church with a huge cross on it. Pre-War Iraq had freedom of religion, where christians didnt have to hide. How many other middle eastern countreis can this be said about.

Are you suggesting that Iraq was a free and open society? beisdes Im only suggesting that Iraq was chosen just as Normandy was chosen as the beachead in the war on terror. I think Iran would have been a better choice. Were just trying to get a foothold here and hope it spreads. Thats what the surrounding arab nations fear.

[Productivity]

Faisal, bmollsson and others in muslim/arabic countries, can you answer what causes people to turn to the Wahhabist sect over other sects of Islam?

[King of Atlantis]

Iraq was free and open about religion and that is exactly what i was saying. I saw a picture of a whole wall of the outer building covered by a cross.

I think it is horrible to attack some country because it is more convienet. Imagine if america becomes some evil empire someday. Then the chinese want to liberate us, but attacking america is to hard so the chinese attack canada instead

Gawain, i rarely have subtle messages in my post ~;)

[bmolsson]

Faisal, bmollsson and others in muslim/arabic countries, can you answer what causes people to turn to the Wahhabist sect over other sects of Islam?

Opportunity. Social environment. Fetish in torture and bombs. Nothing better to do.

It's more about being a part of a local gang than an ideology or faith. "A few guy's over a beer gets the idea to rape a chick" thingy so to speak.......

[Tribesman]

Gawain;And more christains were killed fighting stupidly over the same god just like their doing. And other than Ireland recent past we have stopped.
Really , I thought there was a little conflict between Catholic and Orthodox in a place formerly known as Yugoslavia .
I think Iran would have been a better choice. Were just trying to get a foothold here and hope it spreads. Thats what the surrounding arab nations fear.
But the surrounding countries are mainly your allies , so you want your allies to fear the very thing that you are trying to impose , while you are at the same time helping them stop what it is you say you are hoping to impose .
Time for a reality check there Gawain . Because if you are helping those that oppose what you are trying to impose then you are not going to get anywhere .

Don;Everything we do offends them. Our very existence offends them.
Offends who ? The nutters or the ordinary people ?
There is nothing you can do to stop offending the nutters , but there is a hell of a lot you can do to stop offending the ordinary people and driving them towards the nutters .
If you cannot concentrate on just the extremists and eradicate them then you might as well give up .

[Redleg]

Don;Everything we do offends them. Our very existence offends them.
Offends who ? The nutters or the ordinary people ?
There is nothing you can do to stop offending the nutters , but there is a hell of a lot you can do to stop offending the ordinary people and driving them towards the nutters .
If you cannot concentrate on just the extremists and eradicate them then you might as well give up .

Have you ever set foot in Saudi Arabia? Have you seen what the Religous police of that country does to citizens that don't close their shops fast enough during the call to prayer?

So having the extremists go to one area of the world so they can be eradicated is a good thing now? I see your opinion is beginning to change on Iraq.

[lars573]

And more christains were killed fighting stupidly over the same god just like their doing. And other than Ireland recent past we have stopped. But no branch of christianity backs killing unblievers or demands all the world submit to them.

Not anymore christianity grew out of it for the most part. The best way to compare islam and christianity is to put them on an equal time scale. The best comparison between islam now and christianity is christianity 400 years ago.




Really , I thought there was a little conflict between Catholic and Orthodox in a place formerly known as Yugoslavia .

Yugoslavia still exists my man. Serbia and Montenegro still use the name Yugoslavia. The wars took place in former Yugoslav republics, with the exception of Kosovo. And even them it was an ethnic conflict. Just that each major ethnicity practiced a certain religion. Croats and Slovenians are 90% catholic, Serbs/Montenegrans and Macedonians are orthodox (again 90%), Bosniaks and Albanians are muslim.

[Fragony]

Not anymore christianity grew out of it for the most part. The best way to compare islam and christianity is to put them on an equal time scale. The best comparison between islam now and christianity is christianity 400 years ago.

Indeed, that gives us a bit of a practical problem doesn't it?

[Dâriûsh]

Faisal, bmollsson and others in muslim/arabic countries, can you answer what causes people to turn to the Wahhabist sect over other sects of Islam? I don’t know. Why do some people join cults?

[IliaDN]

I don’t know. Why do some people join cults?
Poverty, IMHO ...

[Don Corleone]

Actually, most people who join cults are fairly well-off children of successful families that are themselves n'er-do-wells. For cults at least, it's a self-esteem thing. Cults aren't interested in poor people, as there's no money in an accout to siphon out.

[Steppe Merc]

Can you imagine Jag and the rest of you non religous people posting your views on god with these people in charge. Isalmo Facshists once more are the best example I know of conservatism taken to extremes. Its truly frightning. You liberals would be toast just for thinking what you think.
Good point. Not that you or really anyone else would do much better, all of us would be screwed, probably.

Actually, most people who join cults are fairly well-off children of successful families that are themselves n'er-do-wells. For cults at least, it's a self-esteem thing. Cults aren't interested in poor people, as there's no money in an accout to siphon out.
And I think Don is right. While it wasn't a cult or anything, take Hippies in the 60s. They weren't poor, despeperate folks trying to change the world, they were middle class white kids who wanted to change the world.

[Divinus Arma]

The only answer to the terrorism question is to spread freedom.

Once Iraq is secure (where the Majority are Shiite) the influence will spread to our beloved friends the Iranians. Iran already has a fairly large reform movement there.

Once the Sunni are on board, the influence will spread to Saudi Arabia. And that is a slightly different problem because of the Saudi Arabian monarchy, where Iran is a theocracy.

We must succeed in Iraq. If we do that, and secure a seperate state for Palestine, the world will begin to truly change towards long-lasting peace. Of course there will always be some degree of radical violence from the middle east, just as there are the IRA.

We must succeed in Iraq. We simply must. Defeat is not an option. Failure is not an option. We are winning . We will win.


But violence alone is not the complete answer. We must win the hearts and minds. Freedom and democracy will show them that. And maybe a McDonalds, too.

[Tribesman]

Redleg ;So having the extremists go to one area of the world so they can be eradicated is a good thing now?
No , because it seriously upsets the ordinary people who happen to live there aswell .
I see your opinion is beginning to change on Iraq.
Not in the slightest .
Now if you could get them where they live , or stop them as they enter or leave the honeypot you set up then it might be a good thing . But your governments plans don't allow for that do they ?
And to top it all off one of your great allies is not only stopping you from going to where they are living , it is even shooting at your troops if they get too close to the border in their search .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

No , because it seriously upsets the ordinary people who happen to live there aswell .

Because they live in a closed society. Their brainwashed. You should see the stories they make up nevermind those that are true to stir up hatred for the west. You reallly dont seem to comprhend what were up against. It reminds me of Gunga Din. You know the guy Sam Jaffe played and his friends. You could reason with those fanatics and you cant with these guys either. Its not like their open to free thinking such as yours. It is liberalism most of all that they hate. They are the uber conservatives much as I hate to admit it. Follow us or die. Like ive said their recruitment methods and tactics seem more like those of the Mafia to me.

[Tribesman]

Their brainwashed. You should see the stories they make up
What you mean like WMDS Yellowcake and links between Iraq and 9/11 ~D ~D ~D

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What you mean like WMDS Yellowcake and links between Iraq and 9/11

All those things are true. Some are easliy proven . Im talking outright fabrication. Also no one ever claimed there were ties between Iraq and 911.

[Tribesman]

Yes Gawain , you certainly are talking outright fabrication .

[Dâriûsh]

Gawain is quite right. Most of the (Middle Eastern) anti-American propaganda is utterly ridiculous, but unfortunately, many people are inclined to believe what they hear, mostly because they lack an alternative news source.

You should see Al-Manar (Hizbullah TV). A prime example of on-air hate inspiring rhetoric.

[KukriKhan]

Islamic Digest
http://www.islamicdigest.net/almanar/start.php
has links to English, French, and Arabic-language broadcasts from Al-Manar. They stream using RealPlayer(tm).

Note: This is not an endorsement of Al-Manar content, just a link for interested readers.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Islamic Digest
http://www.islamicdigest.net/almanar/start.php
has links to English, French, and Arabic-language broadcasts from Al-Manar. They stream using RealPlayer(tm).



Yes Gawain , you certainly are talking outright fabrication .

I guess I am. It seems they share your view on the world here.

[Lemur]

Also no one ever claimed there were ties between Iraq and 911.
Well, not unless you think the Vice President of the United States is no one:


Cheney: "His regime has had high-level contacts with al Qaeda going back a decade and has provided training to al Qaeda terrorists." (Cheney Remarks, 12/2/02)

Cheney: "His regime aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. He could decide secretly to provide weapons of mass destruction to terrorists for use against us." (Cheney Remarks, 1/30/03)

Russert: "The Washington Post asked the American people about Saddam Hussein, and this is what they said: 69 percent said he was involved in the September 11 attacks. Are you surprised by that?

Cheney: "No. I think it's not surprising that people make that connection." (NBC, Meet the Press, 11/14/03)

Cheney: "I think there's overwhelming evidence that there was a connection between al-Qaeda and the Iraqi government." (National Public Radio, "Morning Edition," 1/22/04)

Cheney: "It's clearly established in terms of training, provision of bomb-making experts, training of people with respect to chemical and biological warfare capabilities, that al-Qaeda sent personnel to Iraq for training and so forth." (Cheney, CNBC's "Kudlow & Kramer," 6/4/04)

Cheney: "In Iraq, Saddam Hussein was in power, overseeing one of the bloodiest regimes of the 20th century. He had long established ties with al Qaeda." (Cheney, Orlando, FL, 6/14/04)

Cheney: "There's been enormous confusion over the Iraq and al-Qaeda connection, Gloria. First of all, on the question of--of whether or not there was any kind of a relationship, there was a relationship. It's been testified to. The evidence is overwhelming. It goes back to the early '90s...There's clearly been a relationship." (CNBC "Capital Report," 6/17/04)

Pulled from this site, (http://www.brendoman.com/hippydave/2004/10/07/cheney_iraq_9_11) but Google showed quite a few sites with Cheney Iraq/9-11 quotes. Take your pick.

One can argue many different sides of these issues, but it is unreasonable to assert that the current administration did not attempt to tie 9-11 to Iraq. In fact, they were fairly successful. 69% of Americans believed that Iraq was behind 9-11 in 2003, and it's possible many still do. I haven't seen any recent numbers.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well, not unless you think the Vice President of the United States is no one:


Your post doesnt support the claim that he claimed there were ties between Iraq and 911.


One can argue many different sides of these issues, but it is unreasonable to assert that the current administration did not attempt to tie 9-11 to Iraq.

You can argue that but you would be mistaken. As far as my memeory serves me Bush asked right after the attacks to see if they could be tied to Iraq and was told no and that was the official position of the government from day 912 on. They did and still do maintain that there were ties between Iraq and AQ which is a different matter. Try again.

[Proletariat]

One can argue many different sides of these issues, but it is unreasonable to assert that the current administration did not attempt to tie 9-11 to Iraq. In fact, they were fairly successful. 69% of Americans believed that Iraq was behind 9-11 in 2003, and it's possible many still do. I haven't seen any recent numbers.

Where in the blue hell are these people? I've never met an American in my frigging life that holds the view point, "We'll, Saddam got us good on 9/11. Let's go get 'im!"

You know Lemur, as much as anybody, that those polls are disingenious and misleading. The answers would be quite different if the polls asked, "Do you think invading Iraq is a logical conclusion after 9/11?" but the poll you're citing cannot distinguish this.

[Lemur]

Your post doesnt support the claim that he claimed there were ties between Iraq and 911.
I understand what you're saying. He never explicitly stated that Iraq was involved in the plot itself. It's a bit of a dodge, and I doubt you would tolerate this sort of semantic hoodwinking in a non-conservative, but in an extremely literal sense you are correct.

In a practical, political sense, however, you are choosing to miss the point. Al Qaeda is known in the U.S. for 9/11. Full stop. When you say Al Qaeda, people think of planes flying into buildings. Maybe they think of OBL and the shoe bomber. Not a whole lot more.

So when you link anyone to Al Qaeda, you're linking them to 9/11, unless you explicitly state otherwise. Oh, not in a strict legal sense, but from a P.R. perspective, heck yeah. When the Vice President spends years linking Al Qaeda to Iraq, well, the effect is as intended.

You can fall back to a "but he never explicitly linked them to the act itself" argument, but that's politically naive. If you link someone to the Nazis, you're linking them to belligerent militarism and genocide. If you're trying to say that someone was an unimportant Nazi, you need to make that clear.

Both the President and the Vice President have made a point of mentioning 9/11 in the same sentences and paragraphs as Iraq. That's how you wind up with 69% of the U.S. believing a theory based on zero evidence. Unless, Gawain, you'd like to contend that 69% of America either knows more on the subject than all of our intelligence services combined, or they just like making things up to amuse themselves.

[EDIT]

Sorry Proletariat, I was posting while you were, ships in the night, etc.

Nobody I know currently believes that Saddam was behind 9/11. But before we invaded, when the Admin. was in a full court press, yes, I knew quite a few people who believed that invading Iraq would avenge 9/11.

As for the reliability of polls, of course they can be fixed. They're just a tool. But as I wrote to G above, there was a deliberate linking of Al Qaeda to Iraq that was supported by the thinnest evidence, which assumed a disproportionate role in both Presidential and Vice Presidential speeches. I can't imagine the linkage was a coincidence. Politicians do things to create a public impression -- that's why they're politicians.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So when you link anyone to Al Qaeda, you're linking them to 9/11, unless you explicitly state otherwise. Oh, not in a strict legal sense, but from a P.R. perspective, heck yeah. When the Vice President spends years linking Al Qaeda to Iraq, well, the effect is as intended.

Because the American people arent stupid. We dont think Saddam had anything to do with planning 911 but we do believe that he did indeed have ties to AQ and is therefore partialy responsible for 911 hence the poll results. It was never stated nor did any americans believe we invaded Iraq because of 911. Its you who are making false assumptions here. Read the congressional authorization of force in Iraq. Theres nothing about 911 in it.

[Proletariat]

In a practical, political sense, however, you are choosing to miss the point. Al Qaeda is known in the U.S. for 9/11. Full stop. When you say Al Qaeda, people think of planes flying into buildings. Maybe they think of OBL and the shoe bomber. Not a whole lot more.


What can you even do, Gawain?

"Sure, he didn't say what I'm claiming! But if you read between the lines he definately did not not say it!"

:dizzy2:

Please cite an example of this massive group of people who think we invaded Iraq solely because of 9/11.

(I thought they lied to us and it was WMDs. Apparently the BA didn't need to lie about WMDs, they already had 69% of the country bamboozled.)

[Lemur]

Please cite an example of this massive group of people who think we invaded Iraq solely because of 9/11.
Did I say "solely"? Did I say it was causal for the invasion? No, if you look at my post, I didn't.

Harris Poll is generally regarded as a non-partisan service, and they show a significant number of people still believe Saddam was behind 9/11. (http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=544)


More surprising perhaps are the large numbers (albeit not majorities) who believe the following claims not made by the president and which virtually no experts believe to be true:

* 47 percent believe that Saddam Hussein helped plan and support the hijackers who attacked the U.S. on September 11, 2001 (up six percentage points from November).
* 44 percent actually believe that several of the hijackers who attacked the U.S. on September 11 were Iraqis (up significantly from 37% in November).
* 36 percent believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. invaded (down slightly from 38% in November).
It does seem that some people are arriving at wildly untrue conclusions. Anyway, Proletariat, please feel free to point me to some evidence to the contrary.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You just shot yourself in the foot Lemurmania


who believe the following claims NOT made by the president

Its not his fault people believe things he DIDNT claim .

[Lemur]

No, my foot is doing just fine. If you've the patience, I would ask you to re-read what I was saying about linkage. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=linkage)

[EDIT]

Never mind, we're getting too far off-topic anyway. Now it's becoming all about Bush, when it's supposed to be about Al Qaeda. I really had no intention of derailing things so badly, mea culpa.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

No, my foot is doing just fine. If you've the patience, I would ask you to re-read what I was saying about linkage.

Hell I could link Washington to the war on terror. Everything in the world is somehow linked to every other thing in the world. That people make up their own dosent prove your point.

[Proletariat]

No, my foot is doing just fine. If you've the patience, I would ask you to re-read what I was saying about linkage. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=linkage)


Refering this to linkage requires a cognitive dissonance that only preconceived notions can produce.

[Lemur]

Gawain, Proletariat, if we want to take this any further, it should be in a separate thread. We're derailing the Al Qaeda discussion.

[Red Harvest]

Gawain,

It is hopless to try to reason with the terrorist. Terrorism is a crime that is punishable by death. But killing terrorist only slows the problem as more terrorist are being raised up to hate.

I've always been of the opinion that it would make more sense to target the crazy friggin' Imam's teaching the hate. They want to be a martyr, let's make it short and sweet for them and close their schools too... If the next generation is not indoctrinated into the hate, it will die out.

[King of Atlantis]

yeah, but if you kill the teachers, then the people being taught would be alot more likely to believe it. When someone dies for a cause it makes them a symbol and symbols are very hard to destroy.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

yeah, but if you kill the teachers, then the people being taught would be alot more likely to believe it. When someone dies for a cause it makes them a symbol and symbols are very hard to destroy.

I believe they have a word fot it. ~;)

[KukriKhan]

Gawain, Proletariat, if we want to take this any further, it should be in a separate thread. We're derailing the Al Qaeda discussion.

Agreed. This is usual Page 4 tendancy. Let's not get into "duelling sources" mode, or "quote - counterQuote - counterCounterQuote" mode.

Thread-starter was Proletariat's news-clipping about the Egyptian ambassador to Iraq being kidnapped (and now killed), and "I just don't get it".

Is there more constructive discussion on that topic, or is it time to start over fresh?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gawain, Proletariat, if we want to take this any further, it should be in a separate thread. We're derailing the Al Qaeda discussion.

Thats pretty funny considering were just answering your posts.


Agreed. This is usual Page 4 tendancy. Let's not get into "duelling sources" mode, or "quote - counterQuote - counterCounterQuote" mode.

Were dissgussing AQs relationship to Iraq and the war on terror so its still on topic.Its only Lems assertions that are drifting us off courrse here. He had to get some Bush bashing in I guess.

[King of Atlantis]

Thats pretty funny considering were just answering your posts.

That doesnt mean there's anything wrong with trying to stop it. ~;)

[Tribesman]

Thread-starter was Proletariat's news-clipping about the Egyptian ambassador to Iraq being kidnapped (and now killed), and "I just don't get it".
Back to the thread starter .
You may not get it , but it worked , the Egyptians , plus two other countries whose diplomats have been attacked , are now withdrawing their diplomats from Iraq .
Al-Qaida once again has shown that the Iraqi Government and the coilition forces cannot even provide basic security to high level figures .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That doesnt mean there's anything wrong with trying to stop it.

We showed that Lemur was wrong and it was pretty much over. He was merely taking the sneaky way out. ~D Its like punching someone in the nose and then saying hey lets not fight after your getting your butt kicked.

[Tribesman]

Its like punching someone in the nose and then saying hey lets not fight after your getting your butt kicked.
Or like saying "bring it on" on then complaining because they are bringing it on and you cannot be bothered to put enough troops on the ground to handle it .
So much for the Pentagons 1:4:2:1 strategy , they cannot even manage 1:1:1:1 .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Or like saying "bring it on" on then complaining because they are bringing it on and you cannot be bothered to put enough troops on the ground to handle it .

What has this to do with anything? It seems you also just cant resist bashing either Bush or the US any chance you get.

[King of Atlantis]

We showed that Lemur was wrong and it was pretty much over. He was merely taking the sneaky way out. ~D Its like punching someone in the nose and then saying hey lets not fight after your getting your butt kicked.

Though your explanation is a good one ~D , it isnt the only reason Lemur might have had. I know i have pulled out of a debate here about religion as I simply got tired of the debate.

[Proletariat]

Though your explanation is a good one ~D , it isnt the only reason Lemur might have had. I know i have pulled out of a debate here about religion as I simply got tired of the debate.

I always pull out after I try to explain something more than three or four times. After that, I usually figure there's an implicit 'agree to disagree' when you and the person you're speaking to just keep saying the same thing to each other over and over. (Re: Ser Clegane and me in the War on Terror thread)

I only went OT with Lemur because nothing is more tendentious and ridiculous to base an argument off than a political poll. They're always geared towards predetermined results and are the height of intellectual dishonesty.

And hey, I started this damned thread.

:happyg:

[King of Atlantis]

I only went OT with Lemur because nothing is more tendentious and ridiculous to base an argument off than a political poll. They're always geared towards predetermined results and are the height of intellectual dishonesty.

Yeah, ive heard many times that numbers can be manipulated anyway you wish.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yeah, ive heard many times that numbers can be manipulated anyway you wish.

Not only that but the questions can be manipulated to get the answer to back any position you like. I know I do it for a living.

[Proletariat]

Not only that but the questions can be manipulated to get the answer to back any position you like. I know I do it for a living.

That was more what I meant.

[King of Atlantis]

That was more what I meant.

Yeah i figured that, but the results can actually be manipulated too.

[Tribesman]

What has this to do with anything?
Since the topic is Al-Qaidas operations in Iraq , absolutelty everything Gawain .
If you want to set it up so that you can fight them over there so that you don't have to fight them over here then make sure you can do it , if you cannot be arsed to do it properly then don't even bother .
Anyone with half a brain could have seen that Iraq wouldn't fit in to the 1:4:2:1 plan especially as there was no hope that Afghanistan would fit the plan .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Isnt it your position that Iraq has nothing to do with AQ? I think were doing a pretty good job of it. They havent been able to stop the new government from forming and it seems the Iraqis have had enough of them. Its not that we need more men . Only the Iraqis themselves can solve this problem in the end.

[Tribesman]

Isnt it your position that Iraq has nothing to do with AQ?
No my position is that it had nothing to do with them before the invasion , now they are there in small but increasing numbers and causing chaos.

I think were doing a pretty good job of it.
Well in thay case Gawain I would hate to see it if you thought they were doing a bad job .

They havent been able to stop the new government from forming
But they and others do seem to have a nasty little habit of killing off the new government when they leave the green zone , you cannot run a country from inside a fortress .

it seems the Iraqis have had enough of them.
Yes the Average Iraqi has no more time for Al-Qaida than the average human has anywhere on the planet . :dizzy2:

Its not that we need more men .
What planet are you on ? If you cannot stop politicians , policemen , soldiers , civilians and community leaders from being executed in broad daylight on the city streets then you need more men on the streets .

Only the Iraqis themselves can solve this problem in the end.
What the hell are you doing there then ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Isnt it your position that Iraq has nothing to do with AQ?
No my position is that it had nothing to do with them before the invasion , now they are there in small but increasing numbers and causing chaos.

So there wasnt any AQ in Iraq until we invaded there. They were everywhere else in the world including Florida but Iraq had none. There were no AQ hiding there nor any bases or training going on there.


I think were doing a pretty good job of it.
Well in thay case Gawain I would hate to see it if you thought they were doing a bad job .

Yu are truly the king of rehtorical replies but short on context.


They havent been able to stop the new government from forming
But they and others do seem to have a nasty little habit of killing off the new government when they leave the green zone , you cannot run a country from inside a fortress .

Their losing face it.


Its not that we need more men .
What planet are you on ? If you cannot stop politicians , policemen , soldiers , civilians and community leaders from being executed in broad daylight on the city streets then you need more men on the streets .

I could ask the same of you. Is this the crap they feed you on the BBC?


Only the Iraqis themselves can solve this problem in the end.
What the hell are you doing there then ?

Were training them to defend themselves the same thing the rest of the free world should be doing because its the right thing to do for us all.

[Don Corleone]

Its like punching someone in the nose and then saying hey lets not fight after your getting your butt kicked.
Or like saying "bring it on" on then complaining because they are bringing it on and you cannot be bothered to put enough troops on the ground to handle it .
So much for the Pentagons 1:4:2:1 strategy , they cannot even manage 1:1:1:1 .

God, Tribesman, if I didnt' know better, I'd say you sound gleeful. Must be the wine I've had talking. ~;)

Look, I've said this many times, in many threads. You're clearly not going to answer me. But, cause I'm a fair guy, I'll say it one last time, in shorthand (cause yes, I agree with you, I'm a longwinded bore) we gave the terrorists 5 shots in a row, didn't do anything to them. They stepped it up each time. Why?

[Tribesman]

we gave the terrorists 5 shots in a row, didn't do anything to them. They stepped it up each time. Why?
Well for starters Don , they did do something , just not very effectively . They stepped it up each time because the approach was completely ineffective .
Now after another newer bigger but still ineffective methods have been tried they are still stepping it up . Why ?

Because half-arsed badly planned attempts without clear objectives and the resources to implement those objectives do not work , they just make the situation worse .

Gawain Their losing face it.
The only losers so far are the Iraqi people .

Were training them to defend themselves the same thing the rest of the free world should be doing
Oh silly me , I am sorry Gawain , I didn't realise that Iraq never had an army or police force before you went there to give them one .

Is this the crap they feed you on the BBC?
~D ~D ~D Ask a policeman or military commander , even better still ask a politician . Thay all will tell you the first thing you need to do in order to be able to stop something happening is to have someone there to stop it .
FFS they were telling the world how great it was that they were finally able to put 23 check points on the main entrances to the Capital City instead of the previous 8 . But then they have had to take away those manning those points so they can patrol the border . Now they are going to take those men away from the border to go back to Fallujah to deal with that all over again .

[Don Corleone]

we gave the terrorists 5 shots in a row, didn't do anything to them. They stepped it up each time. Why?
Well for starters Don , they did do something , just not very effectively . They stepped it up each time because the approach was completely ineffective .
Now after another newer bigger but still ineffective methods have been tried they are still stepping it up . Why ?


Really, Tribesman. That's amazing to hear. Would you care to share us with us what exactly the United States did after each of those attacks? Or, better yet, just after one. What was our response after the USS Cole that was so awful we just gave more ammo to Al Queda? Because we didn't do anything, we did as you're advocating now, we just sat there and took it. And what was the result? Ever increasing numbers of dead Americans. If nothing else, we've slowed that trend down.

[Tribesman]

What was our response after the USS Cole that was so awful we just gave more ammo to Al Queda? Because we didn't do anything,
Yes Don , Hellfire missiles hitting cars are just a normal traffic hazard . ~D ~D ~D
It just shows that when you use the correct reliable intelligence and todays wonderful technology you can achieve a result once the other methods have failed .

we did as you're advocating now, we just sat there and took it.
Firstly where have I ever advocated just sitting and taking it ? Secondly when has your government just sat and taken it ?
If you want to talk about the Cole and the response go ahead . It was actually one of the best responses your government has taken considering the constraints that surround operations in the area and the relationship with the governments there , feel free to thank the French military and Government for their vital assistance while you are at it . ~;)

Now then if I give you a little time to familiarise yourself with some facts surrounding the response to the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole would you like to talk about how it provided "ammo" for Al-qaida ?(a little clue for you ,take the constraints on the operations and look where those same constraints are now being exploited) .