Tweaking the new troop stats in patch 1.02

[Lord Toranoga]

What do you patch 1.02 playtesters think of making a very small change for me?

How do you feel about changing YA's melee value from -1 to minus -2, and their defense from -1 to 0.

Its a small change. But looks and feels right!

Also the cavalry charge bonus' look like they need tweaking. I just don't feel comfortable with CA having a better charge bonus then HC and NC.

These are small tweaks that would make me feel much better.

I'm still not sure about Naginata yet either.

Please consider tweaking them. -THANKS.

[BakaGaijin]

CA are faster. Logically, they should have a better charge bonus: i.e., a stronger impact. They won't do nearly as well after the initial charge, though.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Erado San]

At this moment I won't even dream about it.

There are no minor changes, believe me. Your change to YA makes them less of a killer but improve their staying power. That means they rout less. The routing they do now is how we feel it was supposed to be. Debatable, of course, but we did spend 6 weeks doing all these 'minor' changes, and somewhere along the way this is what we came up with.

And while you don't feel comfortable with the cav charge bonuses, so far the majority of the community feels they are ok. So do we. I explained the reasons for these values in your other post at teh .com. The fact that CA have highe charge bonus than NC and HC has everything to do with the way they are used in battle. Changing that would change their entire role, and would require going through all of their stats. Again.

And don't forget that after 6 weeks of changes, changes and more changes we are a bit fed up with numbers. We definitely need a break from them, and are now enjoying the battles we have. Maybe in a week we can review what the community thinks and maybe reconsider, but there will have to be very, very good reasons to do so.

[Sjakihata]

LoL

[Kraellin]

in addition to what erado said, you have to remember that even one 'official' stat change means a completely new executable that has to be done by CA. at this point in time i'm not brave enough to ask them for this :)

this is also why we asked that the ability to mod these things by the players themselves be given back to the players themselves. we knew without a doubt that not everyone would agree with our choices. hell, we didnt even agree completely within the team. so, dont like it, mod it yourself, but there's no way in hell i'm going to go back to CA at this point for a +1 here or a -1 there. dont like it, mod it! ....hmmm, maybe i shld make that my new sig....

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

[Erado San]

Err... yes, forgot about that Krae... I mean... how many recompiles have they done... Especially with those amendments we requested AFTER the deadline...

The QA manager will have a fit and Target will have my hide for a rug if I even try now... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Erado San (edited 11-29-2001).]

[KumaRatta Yamamoto]

"If you don't like mod it" should be the motto for every team member who worked on this. At least for a while, until the message gets through. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Khan7]

Without a doubt. That's what troopstats is for. I frankly was surprised that CA touched any "official" modding with a ten-foot pole.

Matt

[DoCToR]

Toranoga, err

HC charge 9; old value 5
CA charge 10; old value 3
NC charge 11; old value 4

So CA don't have a higher charge than NC!!
They have a higher charge than HC because HC are slower and, more importantly, the HC were also boosted in defence and armour whereas the other cavalry were all decreased and their charge increased more significantly than the HC's.

DOc

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MizuDOC Otomo
DrJambo Ouchi

[Puzz3D]

CA took a big chance, and we as a team did our best to come up with something that played well, and addressed the gameplay issues that the community wanted addressed. I know that in many instances personal preferences were put aside in the interest of producing something that the majority of the community would find fun and interesting to play. I think there is some real depth to the tactics now, and not just the rush or shoot and rush that was the rule for online games before.

While our aim was to not degrade the single player game, time and time again testers found the single player to be harder than before. The ai is smart and evaluates the actual relative unit strengths before making it's moves. I just played a custom Sengoku game on green on normal difficulty with these stats and got creamed by the ai. I virtually never lost to the ai on normal before. This improvement is something we never anticipated.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Lord Toranoga]

"CA are faster. Logically, they should have a better charge bonus: i.e., a stronger impact. They won't do nearly as well after the initial charge, though."

If you use speed as the determining factor then NC should have a higher charge bonus than HC.

I just wished you guys ran these numbers by the rest of us before everything was finalized.
We might have been able to sway some of you one way or another with our opinions.
I know there was some disagreements with some of the units among the playtesters, maybe the rest of us modders who play single player games could have contributed their thoughts about them.

Well it's too late now.
And what we have now is better, and certainly better for multiplayers.
So guys like me and Kahn7 who put more emphasis on historical accurracy can just keep on doing what we have been all along, play with our own mod.

[Khan7]

Look, the unfortunate thing about any type of work with a creative aspect is that not every Tom, Dick and Harry gets a say. I'm not miffed at all that they didn't run the numbers by me so I could pull a couple of numbers off the top of my head for them to go change real quick. If that was the SOP we'd be waiting all year and TW2 would come out (or, more likely, it would just suck and make not sense).

Matt

[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 11-29-2001).]

[DoCToR]

Look Toranoga, i don't know where you are getting your figures from or for that matter what patch you are using, but as i said just before your post, NC have a charge of 11, HC have 9 and CA 10.

!?!?!? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by DoCToR (edited 11-29-2001).]

[Catiline]

And another one, this is turning into a real spring clean. EM&P.

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Oderint dum metuant

[Erado San]

The problem with having too many people would have been too many opinions. It's fair to say that I, Tera, Obake, Magyar and Kocmoc kept very very quiet when the Mizu's were at it again. For one thing, it was hard to keep pace with what they were saying at times. The sheer mathematics they employed to check the validity of what they were doing was not to be underestimated. And on the other hand, they were doing a fine job without us interfering. Only once or twice did I stop them from venturing on to a path which would have led to very intriguing stats no doubt, but I had to make sure that our end result would be acceptable to CA as well. When we would have had more people in there this would only have led to more different opinions, longer discussions and more confusion, and I am certain that we would not have made the deadline. In fact, with previous beta patches the beta testing group was twice the size. I had to cut down the size just to get the ball rolling.

In fact, now is the time that we are looking for possible improvements that might be valuable for the final version. But as yet, although the discussions are good, I have not seen an improvement that I would consider valuable enough to seriously investigate, or that has not been investigated before.

The YA will simply not be possible without making the YA balanced again. It was hard enough to achieve this in the first place.

The cav charge stats are fine as they are, looking at gameplay mostly.

The option to change the Max Turning Angle as suggested in the other thread by Khan would require a full two weeks of testing, tweaking and more testing and that is just not on. It is however one that would show the most potential. The effect it has on gameplay is such, that every unit would have to be reviewed again, even those of which you don't change the turning angle.

To be honest, meybe the only thing I can see that would be reviewed for improvements is when you guys come up with a serious deficiency in the stats, like a possibility that the X-BOW rush would suddenly be a big problem. Or something that would just be so damn good that you simply can't ignore it.

What I do see, is a number of suggestions that could well be worked out and result in alternative stats we should put available for download in a central place, much like the maps are now.

[BakaGaijin]

Feh. I wonder if "game mod mathematics" is related to bistromathematics at all. It sounds like it, sometimes.

So, who wants to help me construct a "virtual message board" for a spaceship computer? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Khan7]

Well Erado, speaking of such alternatives, the Real Deal mod is ready for distribution, whenever that is good. Even I would stop short of hyping it at this point, even if it were a polished product the community needs a chance to get used to the new patch, but couldn't hurt to put it on some back page for a while, just for convenience. In due time I/et al will get to work on it. For this project I may have to assemble fresh band of modders, but if the Mizus et al would want in on it, believe me the honor would be all mine.

As I've said, I've literally taken it as far as I can myself.

But anyway, more thought on this later, for now the community should just sit back and enjoy v1.02.

Matt

[Erado San]

Well, there are two sets of stats that spring to mind: your real deal mod and a set of stats Tosa was working on during development.

As for the RDM, put in the extra column and have a ball. Like I said, at the moment I am numbernumb and won't look at them for a while. Besides, I still have to finish this patch and see it through until CA decide to promote it to Final Status.

After that I have two more projects to finish. My tech support has suffered a bit because of my involvement with the patch and I really need to put some more stuff together. That has highest priority for them moment. Then I have another project concerning this patch is on my todo list. After that I think I will get together with you and everybody else who wants to be involved and get this RDM alive. Tosa's Big Yari stats are also very nice. All cav 45, all inf 60 and YA on 120 I believe it was. Can't be played beyond the 60 troops per unit standard of course, but combined with Yamaga's Rules this could be one hell of a set as well.