Leaked Dossier Reveals Al-Qaeda’s British Recruits

[Templar Knight]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1688261,00.html


AL-QAEDA is secretly recruiting affluent, middle-class Muslims in British universities and colleges to carry out terrorist attacks in this country, leaked Whitehall documents reveal.

A network of “extremist recruiters” is circulating on campuses targeting people with “technical and professional qualifications”, particularly engineering and IT degrees.

Lord Stevens, the former Metropolitan police chief, revealed separately last night that up to 3,000 British-born or British-based people had passed through Osama Bin Laden’s training camps.

The dossier also estimates that 10,000 have attended extremist conferences. The security services believe that the number who are prepared to commit terrorist attacks may run into hundreds.

Dossier part 1: http://www.times-archive.co.uk/onlinespecials/cabinet1.pdf
Dossier part 2: http://www.times-archive.co.uk/onlinespecials/cabinet2.pdf
Dossier part 3: http://www.times-archive.co.uk/onlinespecials/cabinet3.pdf
Dossier part 4: http://www.times-archive.co.uk/onlinespecials/cabinet4.pdf

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Too bad you cant cut and paste from that. Did you notice it said that most terrorists come not from the poor but from the best educated? Be sure to treat them nice if you find them. Im sure if you tell them your their friend they will tell you everything they know.

[KukriKhan]

Too bad you cant cut and paste from that.

To the contrary, it's the almost-perfect starter post. He quoted the 'lede' (first 2 juicy paragraphs, that make the reader want more), provided a link to the entire article (for readers who are interested), and further links to supporting documents.

The only thing missing is his personal input.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

To the contrary, it's the almost-perfect starter post. He quoted the 'lede' (first 2 juicy paragraphs, that make the reader want more), provided a link to the entire article (for readers who are interested), and further links to supporting documents.

The only thing missing is his personal input..

No I wanted to quote from the PDF but you cant. I have no quams with his post.

[BDC]

What idiots. Some people don't realise how good they have got it.

[Lemur]

Fits perfectly with the profile of the 9/11 hijackers. IIRC more were western-educated than not. I've read any number of theories on why that was so, but none have been convincing.

[KukriKhan]

No I wanted to quote from the PDF but you cant. I have no quams with his post.

My bad, then. Sorry I misunderstood. :bow: To select text in PDF, look on the Acrobat Reader toolbar for a large letter "T" (about the middle of the toolbar). Click it, and you can select text to copy.

I apologize for the diversion.

[PanzerJaeger]

I have to read a lot of PDFs for my job, and some of them are locked as to prevent copy/pasting.


As for the story, it just goes to show you never know which muslim is a nut and which isnt.

Over here people seem to fear those muslims that are "just off the boat" so to speak, but in reality, we should be watching those that have blended into the culture.

If im not mistaken, some of the 9/11 terrorists visited a strip club the week before the attacks...

[Steppe Merc]

It seems we need to find out who these "extremist recruiters", and stop them. Or something like that.

[BDC]

It seems we need to find out who these "extremist recruiters", and stop them. Or something like that.
Whilst that would seem sensible, they get away with it because they all face being executed if deported, generally for being an extremist recruiter, so can stay here. And preach all they like.

Until they cross the line, say something genuinely stupid on air, and get arrested.

[Lemur]

If im not mistaken, some of the 9/11 terrorists visited a strip club the week before the attacks...
Absolutely correct: (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&al-qaeda_members=otherHijackers)


A number of the hijackers apparently drink alcohol heavily in bars and watch strip shows. On September 10, three terrorists spend $200 to $300 apiece on lap dances and drinks in the Pink Pony, a Daytona Beach, Florida strip club. While the hijackers had left Florida by this time, Mohamed Atta is reported to have visited the same strip club, and these men appear to have had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks.

[sharrukin]

The links between social deprivation among British Muslims and
extremism is not simple cause and effect . Case histories suggest that the British Muslims who are most at risk of being drawn into extremism and terrorism fall into two groups : a) well educated, with degrees or technical/professional qualifications, typically targeted] by extremist recruiters and organisations circulating on campuses; b) under-achievers with few or no qualifications, and often a non-terrorist criminal background - sometimes drawn to Mosques where they may be targeted by extremist preachers and in other cases radicalised or converted whilst in 'prison. Moreover many of the UK's links to international terrorism are from expatriate communities and exiles from abroad, especially North Africa, who are motivated by an international agenda.

This is correct as it is not the poor and downtrodden who carry out many of the terrorist attacks but the wealthier and middle class groups. Saudi Arabia, Egyptian groups, Pakistan, Kosovo, and Algeria are the problem, and need to be dealt with.

Some faith communities, especially Muslims, are dependent on poorly qualified ministers of religion from abroad with little English or knowledge of our society . We will introduce in June a requirement for ministers of religion from abroad to have adequate English; and launch consultation on additional requirements.

Allowing radical Muslim preachers into the UK should have been ended a long time ago. We need to break the linkage that allows these groups to operate with ease internationally. They will always be able to move personnel and material to a certain degree but we shouldn't make it easy for them.

[Ser Clegane]

While the hijackers had left Florida by this time, Mohamed Atta is reported to have visited the same strip club,

But I'm sure he chastized himself afterwards for it... :whip:

[JimBob]

Of course its well-to-do people who fight for ideologies. They don't have to worry about survival, poor people are too cold, too hungry, or too something to care about 'eternal salvation' and 'paradise.' As to why they get middle class kids its because they don't have to deal with survival but want to deal with something.

[Papewaio]

Actually makes sense.

Nazi Black shirts vs Brown Shirts.

Yasir Arafat was an engineer.

So what is the linking thread for all of them? Are they well educated but time rich (idle hands are the devils tools) ... unemployed angry yet intelligent would be the worst combination when combined with impressionable.

[Don Corleone]

It seems we need to find out who these "extremist recruiters", and stop them. Or something like that.

We know who they are. There was that guy down at the University of Miami who was doing just this who got his tenure revoked and fired in early 2002. The media was all over it claiming "it didn't take long for the oppression of muslims in this country to begin".

Any time you try to keep tabs on who's inciting what, you get a knee-jerk reaction from the Left & the media that you're violating their cultural rights.

[Marcellus]

Any time you try to keep tabs on who's inciting what, you get a knee-jerk reaction from the Left & the media that you're violating their cultural rights.

Well, if you're restricting their actions or invading their privacy without them actually committing a crime, then you are violating their rights.

[Templar Knight]

The network

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,212701,00.jpg

[Don Corleone]

Well, if you're restricting their actions or invading their privacy without them actually committing a crime, then you are violating their rights.

Well, believe it or not, these people aren't idiots. They don't actually come right out and offer a detailed plan for an attack at Friday prayers. But getting up there and screeching about how "the West is evil and deserves death at all levels" technically isn't an illegal statement to make. What's your point, until they actually come out and publicly order an attack, we shouldn't monitor these hate imams?

[Marcellus]

Alright, you should be able to monitor them, as long as it does not violate their rights.

[Steppe Merc]

Hell, I'd want someone like that fired. It's one thing to be liberal, it's another thing to be a hate mongerer (?).

[Don Corleone]

Steppe, you're a fairly rational guy. You and I may come to completely opposite conclusions on some issues, but I can recognize and respect a thought process going on.

There's entirely too much 'kneejerk' politicking that goes on on both sides, and people 'assume positions' in an argument, they don't choose them.

[Marcellus]

I'm wondering, might it be possible to arrest somebody preaching 'death to the West' or similar for incitement to violence?

[Don Corleone]

I can't speak for the UK, but not in the US. You cannot even use that as grounds to monitor and survail (sp?)

The US Supreme Court ruled in Brandenber v. Ohio that in order to nail somebody for incitement to violence:


the Court held that the First Amendment allows punishment only of subversive advocacy calculated to produce "imminent lawless action" and which is likely to produce such action.

The court strengthened this position 4 years later, in Hess v. Indiana.
The Court concluded that Hess's statement, taken in context, was not aimed at producing imminent lawless conduct but rather, at the most, lawless conduct at some indefinite future time

Finally, in 1982, the court confirmed that the threat must be of a direct, specific & plausible nature in NAACP v. Claibourne Hardware.
The Court also failed to find the Brandenburg test satisfied in NAACP v Clairborne Hardware (1982). The Court found First Amendment protection for the NAACP's practice of writing down names of blacks who violated a boycott of certain white businesses, and then reading them aloud at NAACP meetings. The Court also found constitutional protection for the statement, "If we catch any of you going in any of them racist stores, we're going to break your damn neck." The Court said the statement fell short of a direct threat or ratification of violence.

In other words, unless they come right out and call for a specific action that they have every reason to believe will result in a specific illegal act, their speech is protected. If I said "Somebody ought to put a bullet in Barney the Dinosaur", that's not incitement to violence. If I said "On Monday, July 11th, 3PM, Barney the Dinosuar will give a political speech at an outdoor podium. You should go climb up into that building and snipe him, with this here rifle" and then somebody does, then yes, that is incitement to violence. For the most part, somebody NOT acting on the incitement has been used successfully as defense, as the speaker had a reasonable belief that nobody would act on their words (as nobody did) even if it was clear they desired somebody to.

By the way, this is the way the court has ruled, not my opinion. I would argue that either of the statements I made in the last paragraph should be illegal.

[Marcellus]

I'm wondering, might it be possible to arrest somebody preaching 'death to the West' or similar for incitement to violence?


I can't speak for the UK, but not in the US. You cannot even use that as grounds to monitor and survail (sp?)

Does anyone know what the situation in the UK is?

[Meneldil]

Not in France. Our autorities often tried to, but then all the anti-racism-pro-muslim-rights-whatever-else associations get mad.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I thought in the U.K. you could be charged with crimes like incitment to racial hatred.
I'd think that would come into this somewhere.

[Steppe Merc]

Steppe, you're a fairly rational guy. You and I may come to completely opposite conclusions on some issues, but I can recognize and respect a thought process going on.

There's entirely too much 'kneejerk' politicking that goes on on both sides, and people 'assume positions' in an argument, they don't choose them.
Thanks, I think.
It's one thing to be open minded about other cultures. But I assume that a teacher that wanted all of the Middle East destroyed would get fired, so a teacher that thinks that him and everyone around him deserves to die also should be fired. It's not like he's going to jail, he's just getting fired.