What makes a person a "true" christian ?

[kiwitt]

According to this Man (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10335791), who headed a "Christian" party in NZ
As a teenager, Capill felt he was never good enough to be a Christian.

He said he came to realise Christianity was not about being a good person, "it's for people that know that they're bad people".

"A Christian is a person who knows that they don't have any hope and don't have any future and they need someone to stand in on their behalf and that, of course, is Jesus Christ." I would have thought "Christians" should be role-models not bad people ?!?

NOTE: This man is a bad person

[Papewaio]

Church: A club for sinners to go to, to ask for forgiveness from someone whom is sinless.

[Roark]

I think this quote is simply saying that Christians should be aware of their faults/mistakes/sins. Repentance is integral to Christianity.

The Christian role-model is Jesus Christ, an allegedly perfect human. It's not that Christians necessarily make less mistakes than others, but they should seek to recognise and repent of their mistakes. They are flawed humans, like everyone else, but they aspire to more...

[Don Corleone]

He's talking about the moment of acceptance of God's grace. It's kind of inherent in that acceptance that you will attempt to sin no more. If your friend offers you $3K to pay off your credit card debts and you go to the casino with it and blow it, you don't really have a relationship.

To be a Christian is to believe that Christ is who He said He was, and to accept that He will forgive you for all your sins, no matter how abhorent they are. From that moment on, I cannot imagine if you made the 2 leaps I just mentioned that you would want to do anything other than emulate Christ as best as you possibly can. I come from a Catholic tradition, so I'd say you may not be able to earn your salvation, but sure as shit can back yourself right back out the door. My friends at the Methodist Church I attend would tell you if you continue to pursue evil (willfully disobeying the will of God) you never really had a relationship with Christ to begin with.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Jesus Christ is many things to many people with many different believes as to what makes a person a true christain. Of course everyone who believes they are a Christain believes they are a true Christain or at least the faith they follow is or they would leave it. I believe you can be a christain wthout even believing in Christ but in his word. I belive a true christian is one who follows the teachings of Jesus. You dont need an organised religion for this.

[PanzerJaeger]

What makes a person a "true" christian ?

Accepting Jesus as your personal savior. Thats all, if I remember correctly.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Accepting Jesus as your personal savior. Thats all, if I remember correctly

Thats what most christain churches say. I think the Catholics are a bit more complicated than that. Again I would say that one who strictly follows the philosphy of Christ is a true Christain.

[Byzantine Prince]

The whole "true christian" is a concept of the imagination. I mean I'm sure Jesus never told his followers to start churchs or have crusades in his honour. I'm sure he just wanted people to believe in god a little more, and offered himself as proof that god cares about his people and that people should love eachother just like god loves them. It's a beautiful concept that is almost non-existent in todays christianity anyhow.

Seriously though when was the last time preachers in America taught people to help eachtother and to treat eachother the way they want to be treated in a major public way? All I hear is that they are against gay marriage and abortion, as if those are the biggest issues jesus ever talked about. In fact I doubt Jesus ever mentioned those. Gays were only bashed in the Bible a couple of times by St.Paul who said "anyone doing those despicaple acts with the same sex should be killed". There is lies the problem with modern christianity which is but a reinvention of what Paul, Thomas Aquinas, and Augustine thought god and jesus were all about.

[kiwitt]

Thanks Guys, That is how I saw it too.

This man above, seems to understand his "faith" better then he understood his "morals" that he was preaching.

I have tried many a time to understand Christianity. I attended bible study at school, went to Sunday school, did mid-week bible study, went to church. All to no avail. I really could not get past the fact it starts with the premise "Believe in God". However, I did understand if I wanted to be "saved", I needed to believe in Christ. And I was told in order to prove I believe in Christ, I need to tell other people how. With me not getting past the first premise, I couldn't go the next step. However, I did learn a lot about how to live a "moral" life.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I really could not get past the fact it starts with the premise "Believe in God".

Belief in god and Christianity are two different things. There are many people who belive theres a god but that dont believe Jesus is god. You can begin with a few million Muslims.


owever, I did understand if I wanted to be "saved", I needed to believe in Christ. And I was told in order to prove I believe in Christ, I need to tell other people how. With me not gettingpast the first premise, I couldn't go the next step.

Thats a recruting tool that most organised religions use. Its also what turns me off to all of them. They cant all be the only true god or church. I dont think Jesus if he is god would be so vain as to require you worship him. I mean my first concern with my kids is that they obey my rules and behave not that they worship the ground I walk upon.

[bmolsson]

Being a member of a Christian church...... ~;)

[kiwitt]

Being a member of a Christian church...... ~;)Which one ? Any church. ~:confused: Sounds like I was rightly put off, Gawain.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The whole "true christian" is a concept of the imagination. I mean I'm sure Jesus never told his followers to start churchs or have crusades in his honour. I'm sure he just wanted people to believe in god a little more, and offered himself as proof that god cares about his people and that people should love eachother just like god loves them. It's a beautiful concept that is almost non-existent in todays christianity anyhow.

I cant believe I totally agree with a post by BP on this topic. Whats the org coming to?

[PanzerJaeger]

Seriously though when was the last time preachers in America taught people to help eachtother and to treat eachother the way they want to be treated in a major public way?

I havent been to church in a long time, but when I did go, there was a lot of that kind of talk. Almost every sunday was a verse from the new testament and how we could apply it to our own life.


All I hear is that they are against gay marriage and abortion, as if those are the biggest issues jesus ever talked about.

Of course you hear people who make controversial statements. Christians talking about the teachings of Christ dont make the news.. ~D


There is lies the problem with modern christianity which is but a reinvention of what Paul, Thomas Aquinas, and Augustine thought god and jesus were all about.

You need to apply your opinion of Islam to your opinion of Christianity.

Stop getting your information about Christianity from the news.(Only negative things appear in the news)

And you know, going to your local Christian church wont kill you. I attended a Buddhist temple for a little while with a girlfriend because I wanted to know what it was about - it didnt hurt me and now I have a better understanding.

One thing is for sure - gay marriage isnt the #1 religious issue on the minds of any of the Christians I know.. it doesnt even make the top 10.

[bmolsson]

Stop getting your information about Christianity from the news.(Only negative things appear in the news)


Fox News ??

[Don Corleone]

First, BP, quite possibly the best post I've ever seen you write. I couldn't agree with you more, and shame on all of us Christians that the world sees us as you do.

Kiwitt, Speaking from my own point of view, as somebody who's got more than a passing acquaintance with the bible himself, it's not really that important that you believe in God, it's important that He believes in you. Don't worry about whether you believe Christ was a man or a facet of the triune existence of God. Seriously. What you believe, you believe.

Christ himself said two things on the matter: "Love the Lord God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul" and "Love your neighbor as you love yourself". If you don't believe in anything other than the here and now, I think the 2nd will do just fine in a pinch. If you believe in both, dont' worry about what you call Him and whether Jesus fits into that equation. He didn't.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Go get a real job there enough good comedians out of work already. ~D

[Roark]

I cant believe I totally agree with a post by BP on this topic. Whats the org coming to?

I was pretty freaked out too...

Well said, BP...

[Byzantine Prince]

Stop getting your information about Christianity from the news.(Only negative things appear in the news)
I get all my information from Encarta. That way I'm sure it's correct.



And you know, going to your local Christian church wont kill you. I attended a Buddhist temple for a little while with a girlfriend because I wanted to know what it was about - it didnt hurt me and now I have a better understanding.
I've been to church many times my friend. I was Christian 1 year and a half ago. I believed in god and all that. I've also been to a mormon church. God those people are dull. ~:confused:

[PanzerJaeger]

I get all my information from Encarta. That way I'm sure it's correct.

Hehe, i doubt encarta told you that Christians only talk about:


gay marriage and abortion, as if those are the biggest issues jesus ever talked about.

Maybe it did though, i dont use it.

In any event, unless you attended a very politically oriented church, i doubt they pushed the gay marriage and abortion issues. I never heard about either of those issues in the church my parents brought me to.

Didnt you find most of the teachings fairly reasonable life lessons? No matter if your a Christian or not, Jesus is a good role model. Of course I dont know what church you went to though..

[kiwitt]

Kiwitt, Speaking from my own point of view, as somebody who's got more than a passing acquaintance with the bible himself, it's not really that important that you believe in God, it's important that He believes in you. Don't worry about whether you believe Christ was a man or a facet of the triune existence of God. Seriously. What you believe, you believe. Thanks Don, that is the best view I have ever heard about Christianity. So long as my wife and I live a "good" moral life, virtually following most guidelines as laid out in the bible. We need to live a life that helps "Him" believe in us. Why was this never said by any other of my Christian encounters.

I often say to my wife, we would make good "Christian" people, if we could only get past the "Belief in God" part. My wife has even worked in Christian schools and enjoyed the good nature most people had.

[ICantSpellDawg]

i dont know how people can do things without believing in the fundamentals. if people believe that jesus was a simply a man - what is the purpose of calling yourself christian?

any other guy with nice sounding ideas that basically contradict his message is just as legitimate

without a direct line to god or without being god, jesus has a message that is as important as any other decent guy - plus, he is a story book character

i know some nice people -doesn't mean i go around with a shirt that says WWSTEVEDO, constantly quoting some book that some followers of steve wrote about him to say how great he was

it is bunk
anyone who believes that religion is there just to make you feel better is a tool. there is a true crisis of faith because, i think, alot of people realize that faith is absurd and they are too scared to look at reality
realize that, in all likelihood, it is just you and me on a neverending path to nowhere (as far as we know). this is logical, based on what can be empirically understood in this life. To use logic to legitimate religion always seemed kind of absurd

the concept of god is ludicrous
and people use models that cant be proven to scare people into believing that "maybe they are real"

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Kiwitt, Speaking from my own point of view, as somebody who's got more than a passing acquaintance with the bible himself, it's not really that important that you believe in God, it's important that He believes in you. Don't worry about whether you believe Christ was a man or a facet of the triune existence of God. Seriously. What you believe, you believe.
Thanks Don, that is the best view I have ever heard about Christianity. So long as my wife and I live a "good" moral life, virtually following most guidelines as laid out in the bible. We need to live a life that helps "Him" believe in us. Why was this never said by any other of my Christian encounters.

I often say to my wife, we would make good "Christian" people, if we could only get past the "Belief in God" part. My wife has even worked in Christian schools and enjoyed the good nature most people had.

Its amazing how many of us believe this way. Even BP seems to be basicly onboard with this. ~:grouphug:

Maybe Im still a christain after all ~:)

[ICantSpellDawg]

Its amazing how many of us believe this way. Even BP seems to be basicly onboard with this. ~:grouphug:


you have an idea that sounds good based on the consensus of 6 people

sounds like you should start your own religion

[Byzantine Prince]

Hehe, i doubt encarta told you that Christians only talk about:
Blah, no I meant the philosophy of it, not the relevence to the news. It got mixed up I guess.




In any event, unless you attended a very politically oriented church, i doubt they pushed the gay marriage and abortion issues. I never heard about either of those issues in the church my parents brought me to.
They never mentioned them at the church I went ot either. But the media only shows church leaders bitching about gays and abortion, while ignoring other problems in society, like greed.


Didnt you find most of the teachings fairly reasonable life lessons? No matter if your a Christian or not, Jesus is a good role model. Of course I dont know what church you went to though..
Yes, but the Bible is an unreasonable philosphy book, if you could call it that. There's way more insightful books on how to live, such as stoic philosophers like Seneca. This is all my opinion though.

I went to the Orthodox Church by the way. Probable the most reasonable christian dogma out of all. The original too.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Blah, no I meant the philosophy of it, not the relevence to the news. It got mixed up I guess.




They never mentioned them at the church I went ot either. But the media only shows church leaders bitching about gays and abortion, while ignoring other problems in society, like greed.


Yes, but the Bible is an unreasonable philosphy book, if you could call it that. There's way more insightful books on how to live, such as stoic philosophers like Seneca. This is all my opinion though.

I went to the Orthodox Church by the way. Probable the most reasonable christian dogma out of all. The original too.

THE orthodox church was probably the original? THE original illegitimate church?
what is THE orthodox church that was around in christs lifetime? how is it different from the catholic church in terms of its inception? they disagreed and split up

there are other "earlier" churches than what you are probably referring to as the byzantine right

[Gawain of Orkeny]

THE orthodox church was probably the original? THE original illegitimate church?
what is THE orthodox church that was around in christs lifetime? how is it different from the catholic church in terms of its inception?

I believe most of the early church documents were written in greek not roman. Mass also was celibrated in greek not latin in the begging. Im just going by recollection here and maybe incorrect.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I believe most of the early church documents were written in greek not roman. Mass also was celibrated in greek not latin in the begging. Im just going by recollection here and maybe incorrect.

right - written in greek - because the eastern part of the world had a firmer grasp on the language

i doubt that many of the apostles spoke greek - it was the people who wrote the letters and the gospels who spoke greek - and they had never met jesus

is it possible that they missed something in the translation from aramaic to greek? yep - same arguement against the western church

i think that it is all bunk, but i hate to see when people prop up theirs as "better"

[Byzantine Prince]

THE orthodox church was probably the original? THE original illegitimate church?
what is THE orthodox church that was around in christs lifetime? how is it different from the catholic church in terms of its inception? they disagreed and split up

there are other "earlier" churches than what you are probably referring to as the byzantine right
The original church started in the 300's by greek speaking people(donno nationality). That's why everything is first written in greek. They were just known as Christians but when the first pope apeared and wanted to break off in 1054 AD. The eastern sect named itself Orthodox because they kept the old traditions like the beards and marriage of priests. They are by far more liberal, which ironic I guess.

[Papewaio]

Probable the most reasonable christian dogma out of all

Actually you are firmly proving BPs statement. With your unreasonable tiara tirade.

[ICantSpellDawg]

The original church started in the 300's by greek speaking people(donno nationality). That's why everything is first written in greek. They were just known as Christians but when the first pope apeared and wanted to break off in 1054 AD. The eastern sect named itself Orthodox because they kept the old traditions like the beards and marriage of priests. They are by far more liberal, which ironic I guess.


you think the eastern rite of the church is more "liberal"? based on what?
wouldnt the western church have been more liberal when they decided, agianst established tradition, that marriage was detrimental to being a priest?

i dont know what liberal is anymore - simply unwillingness to conform to established norms id guess based on some sort of "logic". the same "logic" that they used to buy into the religion in the first place?

what is the point of establishing norms in the first place if you know that they will simply be dis-established later on?

so many things are absurd -including the myth around some man who lived 2000 years ago that is based on nothing more than a biography written by people a hundred years later and what soem people passed on orally. c'mon - you see how religions spread before christianity up till the present day.

nitpick details of the illegitimate all you want - im game

if there ever was hooey - it is belief in anything
and yet it seems so necessary

[ICantSpellDawg]

a big reason that i enjoy getting older is that i gain new insight into my life.
i also really enjoy finding out why old people believe the ridiculous crap that they believe and why young people think it matters to prove them wrong.

ESPECIALLY with regards to religion. if you didn't buy it, why did you bother teaching it to me? is it because you wanted to base my life in even more absurdity than popular culture was able to provide? thank you all of you old fogies for trying to rationalize an irrational system of beliefs based on illegitimate foundations. thank you young people for believing in certain things that you dont realize are based almost entirely on the religions that you despise.

all of you, eat my doo-doo butter
im too tired and insane to yell at my computer anymore

[Papewaio]

Hurray for Physics ~:cheers:

[Roark]

I don't think I understand what just happened...

*makes a cuppa*

[Byzantine Prince]

you think the eastern rite of the church is more "liberal"? based on what?
Based on what they preach. In many ways they aren't though so I'm not sure. For example they don't allow other religious buildings other then own(except for Thrace) and Athen is the onle capital of a European nation without a mosque. There's plenty of muslims mind you. But generally speaking they are less abrasive then catholics or evangelicals.


wouldnt the western church have been more liberal when they decided, agianst established tradition, that marriage was detrimental to being a priest?
The western(catholic) one was more hardline, and generally more faschist in it's regulations. They also stired far from the original doctrine when their popes became more and more arrogant.


all of you, eat my doo-doo butter
im too tired and insane to yell at my computer anymore
McGruff finally lost it. :dizzy2:

Keep on trucking TSM, and may... no-god be with you. :dizzy2:
I know he's with me. ~D

[Husar]

McGruff must be afraid of hell, he tries hard to make himself believe it doesn´t exist... ~;)

[ICantSpellDawg]

McGruff must be afraid of hell, he tries hard to make himself believe it doesn´t exist... ~;)


kind of like im afraid of the planet hoth

[Navaros]

As a teenager, Capill felt he was never good enough to be a Christian.

He said he came to realise Christianity was not about being a good person, "it's for people that know that they're bad people".

"A Christian is a person who knows that they don't have any hope and don't have any future and they need someone to stand in on their behalf and that, of course, is Jesus Christ."


According to this Man (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10335791), who headed a "Christian" party in NZI would have thought "Christians" should be role-models not bad people ?!?

NOTE: This man is a bad person


you are incorrect with your analysis of this

the Christian man is 100% correct in what he has presented here

all men are sinful and evil by default

therefore, in the eyes of God, by default every man and woman is nothing more than a vile steaming pile of dung


the advantage of being Christian is that they get the benefits of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse their sin and hence make them worthy to become anything more than dung to God. and they get the Holy Spirit to live inside them and keep them grounded in some semblance of morality. as opposed to being stuck in the chaotic state of anarchaic evil and that all men will naturally partake in without having such spiritual grounding

the Christian man you quoted is not a bad person. the bad people are those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (the one unforgivable sin) by saying that the Word of God is a lie and perverting it with false doctrine (ie: saying homosexuals can be priests and marry etc.) in order to make evil humans - rather than pure God - happy

people are inherently evil. anyone who says otherwise is doing something bad. someone being honest about that is not doing something bad.

[Navaros]

Accepting Jesus as your personal savior. Thats all, if I remember correctly.


this is correct, however the wording of that is very misleading to the unbeliever, in that this description cannot be understood merely at "face value"

you can not just say you accept Jesus as your personal saviour. that does not make one become a Christian

rather, it is an all-encompassing lifetime committment to doing the will of God and obeying the teachings of God and Jesus

remember, Jesus has said that everyone who says to him "Lord, Lord" will not enter into his Kingdom

this underscores that accepting Jesus is much more than just a verbal ritual

[Steppe Merc]

therefore, in the eyes of God, by default every man and woman is nothing more than a vile steaming pile of dung
Why would he bother making them then?
And why would you worship such a cruel god?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Why would he bother making them then?
And why would you worship such a cruel god?

i think that it is kind of absurd to stipulate either way
the freaks who believe in a benevolent God are just as absurd as those who believe in a cruel God

there is evidence of both in any religious text of nearly any religion
and life itself has both.

[kiwitt]

the Christian man you quoted is not a bad person. I think the parents of the children he raped would think otherwise.
If only "blasphemy" etc. is what makes you a bad person, then I believe society has moved on since then. Good behaviour and love your neighbour as you love yourself is a much better way to be a good person.
benefits of the atoning blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse their sinWhy not seek forgiveness from those you may have hurt, instead of drinking some wine.
all men are sinful and evil by defaultI believe we make mistakes in judgement and behaviour, that does not make us all evil. This level of hostility to mistakes of mankind turns me against religion.

[Husar]

kind of like im afraid of the planet hoth
Should I ever find a "new" planet out there, I´ll name it hoth. ~;)


therefore, in the eyes of God, by default every man and woman is nothing more than a vile steaming pile of dung
Not exactly, every sinner you might say, but in general god loves men and likes nothing more than sinners becoming true christians. Jesus also accepted children, they are too young to differentiate right and wrong yet(by definition they are sinners, but not really responsible).


Why not seek forgiveness from those you may have hurt, instead of drinking some wine.
A true christian WILL seek forgiveness from Jesus AND the one he/she may have hurt. Drinking wine is just symbolic for accepting Jesus as your savior.

BTW: Loving your enemies is not entirely stupid in every case, it may not work with terrorists or criminals, because they will probably kill you before, but I "converted" a classmate from someone who was picking on me to a friend(more or less, not a good friend, but a friendly person) by just being nice in response to his attacks, he just couldn´t keep his bad attitude up. I didn´t even do this on purpose, I just didn´t see any sense in attacking him, because I didn´t know why he shouldn´t like me, but it worked. ~D :bow:
One of those christian values for everyday use I´d say. ~;)

[Papewaio]

Being nice is actually a good tactic.

A) If they were angry and felt like revenge it takes the edge off their anger. Continue being nice and they probably will come to the conclusion that you did not mean to make them angry in the first place and from there you can have a good conversation.

B) If they are are attacking you to cause grief and want to upset you, nothing will make them more disappointed (and angry) then to have you turn around and be nice to them. It rips apart their power trip to get you to react, they lose the initiative and they get more and more powerless and hence angry as they go ballistic trying to upset you. Yes I have been 'ruthlessly nice' to a few people to the point that left them frothing idiots.

[Navaros]

Why would he bother making them then?
And why would you worship such a cruel god?


well you see, God did not make man in order to be screwed up like that. God made man to be perfect and immortal

Adam and Eve furbared that up by letting Satan defeat them. Adam and Eve then devolved at that moment, and passed that curse onto all humans to follow.

of course that begs the question of, why didn't God just make it so it would be impossible for Adam and Eve to fall. if free will just causes mankind to screw up, why give them it? to that question, i do not know the answer ~:eek:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

all men are sinful and evil by default

I though Jesus came to remove that stigma?

[Steppe Merc]

i think that it is kind of absurd to stipulate either way
the freaks who believe in a benevolent God are just as absurd as those who believe in a cruel God

there is evidence of both in any religious text of nearly any religion
and life itself has both.
I'm hardly the one to talk about religous beliefs, but would a god that destroyed (nearly) all of the human race, along with almost all the animals in a giant flood deserve to be worshipped? I mean, that's not very nice...

[Navaros]

I though Jesus came to remove that stigma?

Jesus did come to save everyone from what they deserve for their sin (eternal death). however, that does not mean men are no longer sinful. all men still have a sinful nature.

of course a true Christian would hopefully not sin nearly as much as others. but even a Christian will still sin. it's hardwired into everyone as a curse ever since Adam and Eve fell.

[Byzantine Prince]

well you see, God did not make man in order to be screwed up like that. God made man to be perfect and immortal
Maybe God made man in order for man screw up. See I thought that God knew everything, that would include the future.


Adam and Eve furbared that up by letting Satan defeat them. Adam and Eve then devolved at that moment, and passed that curse onto all humans to follow.
So if we follow that logic, would that mean that Adam and Eve's sons and daughters would have to have sex with eachother in order to populate the earth? ~:confused:


of course that begs the question of, why didn't God just make it so it would be impossible for Adam and Eve to fall. if free will just causes mankind to screw up, why give them it? to that question, i do not know the answer ~:eek:
If we didn't have free will we would be machines. In some ways though our actions are completely predictable, so I guess we are not as free as we think we are. We are after all easily manipulated and very suggestible.

It is only when we go insane that we are trully free. Holly cow! That's Foucault! I reached the same conclusion as one of the greats. Hooray for me! ~:cheers:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Jesus did come to save everyone from what they deserve for their sin (eternal death). however, that does not mean men are no longer sinful. all men still have a sinful nature.

Your ignoring something here. We all also have a good nature. We are not all bad or sinful. In fact most of us are more good than bad by a large margin.


Originally Posted by Navaros
well you see, God did not make man in order to be screwed up like that. God made man to be perfect and immortal

Well then it would seem it was God that screwed up as we sure didnt turn out as planned. I thought he was all knowing? ~:confused: Not only isnt he all knowing according to your reasoning but falable as well.

[Steppe Merc]

Nav I have a question. Say if a very devout Christian guy killed someone. Would he be damned or whatever? And would his fate be the same or worse than a non believer that spent their life helping people?

[Navaros]

Your ignoring something here. We all also have a good nature. We are not all bad or sinful. In fact most of us are more good than bad by a large margin.



Well then it would seem it was God that screwed up as we sure didnt turn out as planned. I thought he was all knowing? ~:confused: Not only isnt he all knowing according to your reasoning but falable as well.


in regards to your first statement: on that, you are incorrect. mankind in it's perverse and evil ways, will generally try to perpetuate the lie that "as long as you don't steal, kill, or rape anyone, you're a good person!"

by that false standard of what good means, then you may think we are not all bad or sinful.

by the true, Godly standard of what good means, then there is no way that anyone meets it fully, and most people violate it heinously constantly

on the question regarding the second statement: you got me. i too, am bewildered by that. we need some sort of very well-trained Priest or something to explain that properly and even then i don't know if he would be able to

[Papewaio]

Sounds like the Presbyterian church...

[Steppe Merc]

Which is really the Jedi Council, or at least in Chinese.

[Roark]

Well then it would seem it was God that screwed up as we sure didnt turn out as planned. I thought he was all knowing? ~:confused: Not only isnt he all knowing according to your reasoning but falable as well.

It's not quite as simple as that, from what little I know of Christian theology.

The situation is referred to as an "antimony" in that, as face value there appears to be a contradiction, but the concepts of sovereign design and human free will are not mutually exclusive.

God is indeed omniscient, according to Christian doctrine, but humans were still given the choice to obey or not obey. It wasn't necessarilya set up.

I don't think I explained that very well, but anyway...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It's not quite as simple as that, from what little I know of Christian theology.

The situation is referred to as an "antimony" in that, as face value there appears to be a contradiction, but the concepts of sovereign design and human free will are not mutually exclusive.

What has this to do with the fact that Nav said god made us to be perfect? He knew from the start that we wouldnt be. Either his design was faulty or he made a mistake.

[Roark]

According to Christian doctrine, humankind was perfect before they made the mistake of disobeying God. Then "sin" entered the world. God made us perfect, but with the free will to choose for ourselves.

That's what I'm saying about the "antimony". Sovereign design vs free will.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

According to Christian doctrine, humankind was perfect before they made the mistake of disobeying God.

I submit that if they were PERFECT they would not have disobeyed god. Nor would they have made a MISTAKE.

[Byzantine Prince]

If he disowned us, why do we need him? :book2:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Better question. If he didnt need us why did he make us?

[Roark]

"Perfect" in this sense is to be taken as "without sin".

Free will is ultra-important in the Christian doxology, because otherwise humans would simply be robots acting within inviolate parameters.

[Roark]

Better question. If he didnt need us why did he make us?

I don't know. I don't have his phone number. ~;)

The closest I can guess is for similar reasons that people have children. We are beings who desire relationships.

[Don Corleone]

I cannot argue against original sin. It's a pretty widely accepted doctrine, this is true. The big problem I have with this "God hates your sorry ass, you better repent" attitude as expressed by Brother Navaros over there, is that Christ did not preach a message of intolerance, but acceptance. He didn't walk up to the adulteress and say "You worthless whore!! How dare you!" He said "Now go, and sin no more". That's world's away from where you're at Navaros. I don't argue that man is a flawed and unworthy creature. I cannot, because I believe we are. But I also believe were Jesus to return (for another tour of ministry, not final judgement), He would not have the sturm and drang you attribute to Him. He certainly didn't in the gospels. The only times I remember Him even getting angry were 1) with the moneychangers in the temple because they defiled it 2) when He warned people about driving his followers away from Him and said 'better a millstone be tied around your neck and you be plunged to the bottom of the sea" and 3) when Peter accidentally tempted Him by saying "Let's get you out of here boss" and Jesus responded "Get away from me Satan!"

There were plenty of times He could have come unglued and He didn't. He calmly and rationally pointed out to people that their behavior was sinful and they had to turn away from it. He didn't rant and rave and talk about how worthless they were, more that God loved them and was eagerly waiting for them to come back to Him. That kind of talk, the how worthless and despicable we all are, in my mind, comes from Satan, as it's one more way to pull you away from God. "There's no way God could ever really love you. You're despicable and worthless and the very thought of you pains God" is exactly the sort of thought that leads people to despair (the abandonment of hope) and does the devil's work. IMHO.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

"Perfect" in this sense is to be taken as "without sin".

Isnt disobeying god a sin. Did god make them sin. I suggest they were not then perfect or even without sin in their hearts to begin with.


Free will is ultra-important in the Christian doxology, because otherwise humans would simply be robots acting within inviolate parameters.

Im well aware of how christains beleive on this matter having grown up catholic. It has nothing to do with the fact that Nav claimed god made us perfect. If he did he wouldnt have given us free will.

[Roark]

I suspect that we may be simply arguing semantics, but anyway...

Humankind was (allegedly) without sin when they were created. They hadn't tainted themselves at that stage but, after temptation by the Devil/snake/Evil One/whatever, they DID sin. That's all I'm saying.

You seem determined to prove that God's plan was flawed. That's cool. Go for gold. I was just trying to clarify what I thought Nav meant by "perfect". I just think your point hinges on a slightly incorrect interpretation of what Nav was saying. That's all.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You seem determined to prove that God's plan was flawed. That's cool. Go for gold. I was just trying to clarify what I thought Nav meant by "perfect". I just think your point hinges on a slightly incorrect interpretation of what Nav was saying. That's all.

I dont think so as Nav agreed with me. When he said perfect thats just what he meant.

[bmolsson]

Better question. If he didnt need us why did he make us?

Maybe he was just bored..... ~;)

[Roark]

I dont think so as Nav agreed with me. When he said perfect thats just what he meant.

I think that some terms have not been properly communicated or understood in this thread.

I also believe that you're actually just grinding an axe about God's "flawed plan" as you perceive it.

It's no skin off my nose, though... I'm a heretic.

[Pindar]

I cannot argue against original sin. It's a pretty widely accepted doctrine, this is true. .

Original Sin is a product of Western Christianity (Eastern Orthodoxy has no such view) : specifically St. Augustine in the Fourth Century. Augustine developed this notion as a counter to Pelagius who had argued that individual acts can have real merit. Protestantism, as it did with many other Augustinian positions, assumed his view.