View Full Version : What's wrong with Society?
Byzantine Prince
07-15-2005, 21:39
"What's wrong with Society?"
That is a question I often hear from senile old people and really conservative people. I respect neither for some distinct reason, one of which I won't get into.
Well I went to the local book store this morning to pick up a new philosphy book. I go there twice a month and pick up something I have never read before but have seen in the encyclopedia. So anyways, I go there and what do I have; Only one and a half of a small section; let's see:
1 book by Kant
2 types of books by Sartre ~:eek:
3 types of books by Plato
2 types of books by Foucault
and so on...
The worst is that even their philosophy section is poor, I mean there's Buffy and Philosophy, Woody Allen and Philosphy, or Seinfeld and Philosophy. What's this freaken world come to where Seinfeld is placed side by side with Nietzsche. :dizzy2: The only thing they have good is that they have a steady supply of numerous Nietzsche books.
This is not to say that they are a small store or they have few books. Quite the contrary, they have like 4 section of New Age and Occult. ~:eek:
I mean it's completely ridiculous. What hapened to the youth of today. Is nothing except video games and skateboarding important to them anymore. What hapened to the tyrant slaying youth of Athens? What hapened to the young communist guerrilla fighters of Eastern Europe? Where have we lost our way? :embarassed:
Now, I look around, and I see entire rooms with periodicals and magazines, two rooms for cooking, a whole lot of random books on Bono, Paris Hilton, or Oprah. This is considered intelligent literature these day? :dizzy2:
Now back to my main point: most of the people shopping there were 60 and over, and they all purchase dumb books on cookies and Oprah and Harry Potter. It's like young people are dead or something. Judging from the types of reading selection they had I would asume that these "experienced" and "older" consumers are to blame. And this brings me to the original point, when some old guy asks you what's wrong with society, you answer squarely and decisevely "you!, because you are the main propriotor of our junk culture". ~:cheers:
So anyways I picked up a copy of THE BIRTH OF PRISON by Michel Foucault and got out of there before I got sick enough to throw up. :furious3:
Polemic rant over. :egypt:
PanzerJaeger
07-15-2005, 22:52
A few points:
-Many, many bookstores sacrifice real content for trendiness. They arent libraries, but businesses, and Im sorry to say that people like you with an honest thirst for knowledge are in the minority. People dont like to purchase things that will shake their world view or really make them think.. at least not people who frequent trendy bookstores.
-The reason you most likely saw a lot more older people in the bookstore is because young people simply dont read as much as they used to. There are too many other forms of media - and theres no real drive to go out and learn on your own. Learning is not a positive with many youths today.
-I dont know what your first sentence about conservatives has to do with anything. You seem to be against what youth has become, yet your also against conservatives who are also against what youth culture is turning into.. ~:confused:
-Dont blame old people for buying what they want to read. When you get to that age, complex books on philosophy are more difficult to understand and less appealing.
-If you want to blame a group for ruining today's culture, blame the grown up hippies of the 60s and 70s. They pioneered the "values" of laziness, immorality, junk culture, and a disinterest in learning. Theyve grown up now and have a big influence on the media and popular culture.
-The ancient grecians you speak of didnt get their information from bookstores, they got it from libraries. That is where you will find real books about important things.
I dont agree with you a lot of the time BP, but its really awesome to see someone who's interested in things that matter. Unfortunately, it seems like throughout history knowledge has often taken a back seat to indulgence. Fortunately for you, you can still find this knowledge, just not at your local coffee shop bookstore. ~;)
Steppe Merc
07-15-2005, 23:06
-If you want to blame a group for ruining today's culture, blame the grown up hippies of the 60s and 70s. They pioneered the "values" of laziness, immorality, junk culture, and a disinterest in learning. Theyve grown up now and have a big influence on the media and popular culture.
Those that were hippies for a few years then went running back home, possibley. I think the 80s screwed society over far more (and the latter half of the 70s). But look at the 50s. That was even worse.
But I hardly think hippies were into "junk culture". And some of them were educated... some. And I hardly find them immoral.
And the 50s created the whole drive for everyone to be the same, and for the whole mass market thing, and advertising.
But yeah, it's hard to find good books in the bookstore. I can never find any good history books, or even fiction. It's so very frustrating. And a lot of people I know don't like to read, sadly.
The few ones I do know that do like to read (including me) would probably be classified as "hippies" by most people, so not sure where that leaves us. ~;)
Jocks and the "cool" crowd tend to be far more book hating, as far as I can tell.
Byzantine Prince
07-15-2005, 23:18
-Many, many bookstores sacrifice real content for trendiness. They arent libraries, but businesses, and Im sorry to say that people like you with an honest thirst for knowledge are in the minority. People dont like to purchase things that will shake their world view or really make them think.. at least not people who frequent trendy bookstores.
That's not my point. I know it's a business, but it sells what people want to read. Taht means that most people are more interested in Oprah, and Ben Affleck then philosophy, history or great literature. Capitalism is a form of democracy in the point of view of the consumer. Everything you buy is like a vote.
-The reason you most likely saw a lot more older people in the bookstore is because young people simply dont read as much as they used to. There are too many other forms of media - and theres no real drive to go out and learn on your own. Learning is not a positive with many youths today.
Learning is negative in today's youth. I agree.
-I dont know what your first sentence about conservatives has to do with anything.
I didn't mean american conservatives, I meant conservatives in general tend to use the phrase "What's wrong with society?". I wasn't making a negative statement about them, I was only pointing out who are the major groups that do use it. Now old people is what I'm commenting on.
-Dont blame old people for buying what they want to read. When you get to that age, complex books on philosophy are more difficult to understand and less appealing.
Ahem, well I know people who are old and aren't that unintelligent, but I am positive that all the old people shopping there were. I could tell by what they buy every time I go there.
-If you want to blame a group for ruining today's culture, blame the grown up hippies of the 60s and 70s. They pioneered the "values" of laziness, immorality, junk culture, and a disinterest in learning. Theyve grown up now and have a big influence on the media and popular culture.
Which is why I hate Hippies. They represent the absolute lowest of western civilization IMO.
-The ancient grecians you speak of didnt get their information from bookstores, they got it from libraries. That is where you will find real books about important things.
The reason for that was that books were too hard to make back then. In this day and age though, I would like to own books that I find have value. I don't just shop at random, I always know what I'm looking for.
I dont agree with you a lot of the time BP
Good. If everyone agreed with me all the time I'de have to kill myself as soon as possible. ~D
Seriously. Thanks for the responces PJ. Sorry if my initial post was unclear. I need to pay more atention to the details. :bow:
"What's wrong with Society?"
A good question and has many different answers depending on what you believe or not
That is a question I often hear from senile old people and really conservative people. I respect neither for some distinct reason, one of which I won't get into.
This might be your problem. Is this A lack of respect for the opinions of others - just because you disagree with their world view, or is it based upon your own narrow life experiences?
If its because of other people's opinions - then your disrespect is your problem and you are your own worst enemy on it. If its from your own narrow life experiences - then it has legimate grounds - but there is hope - you can get out and see other parts of the society verus what you are just exposed to.
Well I went to the local book store this morning to pick up a new philosphy book. I go there twice a month and pick up something I have never read before but have seen in the encyclopedia. So anyways, I go there and what do I have; Only one and a half of a small section; let's see:
1 book by Kant
2 types of books by Sartre ~:eek:
3 types of books by Plato
2 types of books by Foucault
and so on...
The worst is that even their philosophy section is poor, I mean there's Buffy and Philosophy, Woody Allen and Philosphy, or Seinfeld and Philosophy. What's this freaken world come to where Seinfeld is placed side by side with Nietzsche. :dizzy2: The only thing they have good is that they have a steady supply of numerous Nietzsche books.
You can always have the private business order a book that you want - or you can go to a online bookstore. Many times a store will order a book just because you are interested in it.
This is not to say that they are a small store or they have few books. Quite the contrary, they have like 4 section of New Age and Occult. ~:eek:
I mean it's completely ridiculous.
Your confusing what is available in your local bookstore with society - two complete and different aspects. Go to your local public liberary. If they have the same problem then your rant might have some validity.
What hapened to the youth of today. Is nothing except video games and skateboarding important to them anymore.
That is often the product of their environment, parents that don't pay attention, and yes one can blame certain aspects of the society and the desire for individual well being over the family unit. One of the philisophies I believe you have stated you believe in. Which makes you part of the problem you are ranting against.
What hapened to the tyrant slaying youth of Athens?
They have become myths
What happened to the young communist guerrilla fighters of Eastern Europe?
They realized the errors of their ways and became capitialists
Where have we lost our way? :embarassed:
Do you have a mouse in your pocket? I have not lost my way.
Now, I look around, and I see entire rooms with periodicals and magazines, two rooms for cooking, a whole lot of random books on Bono, Paris Hilton, or Oprah. This is considered intelligent literature these day? :dizzy2:
No its considered printed reading material. Literature requires some thought behind it.
Now back to my main point: most of the people shopping there were 60 and over, and they all purchase dumb books on cookies and Oprah and Harry Potter. It's like young people are dead or something. Judging from the types of reading selection they had I would asume that these "experienced" and "older" consumers are to blame. And this brings me to the original point, when some old guy asks you what's wrong with society, you answer squarely and decisevely "you!, because you are the main propriotor of our junk culture". ~:cheers:
Looks like again you are your own worst enemy and part of the problem in which you are ranting against. What is wrong with buying a new cookbook to try out new foods. If someone wants to read about Oprah instead of a philisophy book that is there choice. However it seems that your problem is that you want everyone to think and act like you do. Which makes the problem yourself - not the question that the older person might be asking you. THe main propriotor (SP) of the Junk Culture is the Generation X age group - where its all about me. It seems again you fall right into the middle of it, and wish to blame others for your own problems with dealing with people and their choices.
So anyways I picked up a copy of THE BIRTH OF PRISON by Michel Foucault and got out of there before I got sick enough to throw up. :furious3:
Polemic rant over. :egypt:
What you should of done is stayed and try to sort out your problem - to figure out for yourself if you were wrapping yourself around the axle over a non-exsistant problem because the local bookstore (a for profit business) did not have the great selection of books that you want.
Yep look deeper inside yourself to see what the problem with society is - its not just the old people or conservatives.
Well, first off...is that really your Weltschmerz?
Capitalism is to blame for most of this. Even before its inception, Adam Smith wrote that it would bring cultural decay. In any case, some books on the Occult can be quite interesting, as long as you as stay as far from Wicca as possible.
Unrelated: Have you read Might is Right by Ragnar Redbeard? I recommend it to you if you haven't.
Steppe Merc
07-15-2005, 23:29
THe main propriotor (SP) of the Junk Culture is the Generation X age group - where its all about me
Hah! See, not hippies! ~;)
But the problem you're talking about is captalism. Which hippies weren't exactly into, if memory serves.
Which is why I hate Hippies. They represent the absolute lowest of western civilization IMO.
Well, I don't want to get into a big argument about hippies. But that is a bit harsh. So slavers are better than hippies? What about Inquisitors that burned heretics? Or Nazis?
Or Nazis?
Now what did we say about nazi references? ~;p
Steppe Merc
07-15-2005, 23:42
Yeah, but they were certaintly a part of Western Culture. And BP said hippes were the lowest in Western Culture. So it's legit, in this case. ~;)
Goofball
07-16-2005, 00:17
What's this freaken world come to where Seinfeld is placed side by side with Nietzsche. :dizzy2:
I know exactly what you mean. Seinfeld has added much more to the world than Nietzsche ever did.
How many people were interested in philosophy 50 or 100 years ago compared to today? I doubt Nietzsche had huge book sales back then ~:)
CBR
Byzantine Prince
07-16-2005, 01:47
Well first of all. I know that I could buy online or order books or other miscelaneous objects for that matter Redleg. My argument was that of principal, not technicality.
If we allow our majority to be this idiotic how can we trust them to vote with an informed opinion, or even serve society correctly for that matter? It's a frightening thought for me.
Capitalism is to blame for most of this.
I would normally agree with that, but I disagree for one reason. If the people were more intelligent, which is school's responsibility, then there would more people shopping for similar things as me. If you consider the alternative: Communism, there would no Niettzsche or any other books that could be even remotely against communist thought. Capitalism allows for whatever you want. Which is precisely why people need to be educated properly, not the idiotic "poster making" education we have here in Canada.
Gawain of Orkeny
07-16-2005, 02:01
Originally Posted by NeonGod
Capitalism is to blame for most of this.
Well you all know who I balme. Yes that right Liberals. These old people your talking about are the ones who started this whole movement. I know I was one of them . Yes hard to believe I know. Maybe you havent noticed but conservatives dont watch Oprah and many of them call Harry Potter the devils work .Your just seeing the result of all this liberalism reflected in your local book store. Again conservtives dont read this crap and most our books like Men in Black are hidden is some backroon there somewhere. ~:)
Well first of all. I know that I could buy online or order books or other miscelaneous objects for that matter Redleg. My argument was that of principal, not technicality. Well it seems you might just get my point with that one. But you even missed the principal of my point - if you want a certain type of book available in your favorite bookstore - ask them. However it seems its always easier to just complain about something then actually ask. - And your premise of what is wrong and where it came from - is even closer then you imaged.
If we allow our majority to be this idiotic how can we trust them to vote with an informed opinion, or even serve society correctly for that matter? It's a frightening thought for me.
Again is that idiotic in your opinion - because they don't share the same desire to purchase a classic literature or philisophy book at their local bookstore for their own reading pleasure.
Intellectual Elitism is what is beginning to ring a bell here. Who ever said democracy was about informed opinion - that is way most modern democracies are not true democracies but Representive governments.
I would normally agree with that, but I disagree for one reason. If the people were more intelligent, which is school's responsibility, then there would more people shopping for similar things as me. If you consider the alternative: Communism, there would no Niettzsche or any other books that could be even remotely against communist thought. Capitalism allows for whatever you want. Which is precisely why people need to be educated properly, not the idiotic "poster making" education we have here in Canada.
Now this is funny - are you attempting to claim your an intellectual elitist?
Steppe Merc
07-16-2005, 03:17
I sort of like Harry Potter... the latest books were better. Not nearly as good as most series, but entertaining.
Gawain of Orkeny
07-16-2005, 03:18
I sort of like Harry Potter.I sort of like Harry Potter.
Case closed ~D
Steppe Merc
07-16-2005, 03:22
Hey, come on! I read lots of properly violent and warlike stuff! ~D
And is quoting me twice doubly damning? ~;)
I´m happy to hear that Sartre, Nietzsche and other selfish people´s works aren´t being read. And I´m happy that not everybody thinks he/she is as elite as BP. ~;)
I prefer the Bible anytime. ~;p
On a more serious note: Who are you to decide who/what is intelligent or dumb, BP? I´m not a fan of Harry Potter and certain biographies myself, but why on earth should that imply that people who read that are stupid? I for one don´t read that much, because at the moment I find the books I´d like to be too expensive.From what I heard about that guy, I´d never buy a book from Sartre...
Don Corleone
07-16-2005, 03:59
As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Dont' read too much into things. I like Harry Potter. I think it offers good humanist values and it finds a way to do so without substituting them for any one particular religion.
If you look hard, you'll find Satan in everything men do (assuming you believe in such an entity).
BP, wow, what I can say. 2 months ago I would have put $1000 down that you were incapable of such deep thoughts. I have clearly misjudged you. :bow:
I don't agree with what you attribute as causes and your boogeymen aren't mine, but I can certainly recognize a 'bigger than me' thought process going on and I find it refreshing that somebody as young as you has picked it up. It also scares me to no end what I would think of Don Corleone at 17 if he showed up and started posting on here. I'm sure I'd hate him. :furious3:
By the way, put the Sarte down, go read some Ayn Rand.
Byzantine Prince
07-16-2005, 05:47
By the way, put the Sarte down, go read some Ayn Rand.
I haven't really read Sartre properly yet. I haven't read his book twice, and it's a very hard one. Too hard for most people to finish IMO. Regardless to what you may believe I don't agree with most of the things I read in philosophy, especialy Sartre, who reminds too much of JAG ~:eek: . They all have their flaws in relation to the way that I see the world. But regardless they all have something useful, a part that's tailormade for you and can shake your opinion or even the way you look at things or people. You don't have to agree with everything they say. You shouldn't be afraid to read books like the Communist Manifesto for example because it lead to communism, there are plenty of things in it about capitalism and how it has some very good qualities(yes you heard right ~D). I for example read Kierkegaard, even though he believed in God. It doesn't bother because he was the one to first question faith and probably the first existentialist(or something like it).
It's right to learn, even from your enemies. Why do you think I hang around the backroom? ~;)
Just jk. :bow:
bmolsson
07-16-2005, 07:14
I don't think there is something wrong with society. Just filled with more challanges than before..... ~;)
PanzerJaeger
07-16-2005, 07:18
If we allow our majority to be this idiotic how can we trust them to vote with an informed opinion, or even serve society correctly for that matter? It's a frightening thought for me.
The fatal flaw of democracy.
I disagree with many of my fellow conservatives on this point. I think democracy is messy. I would much rather have a ruling class based on the military.
Byzantine Prince
07-16-2005, 07:34
The fatal flaw of democracy.
I disagree with many of my fellow conservatives on this point. I think democracy is messy. I would much rather have a ruling class based on the military.
Something like this: link - junta (http://www.ahistoryofgreece.com/junta.htm)
https://img313.imageshack.us/img313/1197/democracyatgunpointsm3co.jpg
Don't think that would work that well either. Oligarchies have gone wrong in ancient greece as well.
PanzerJaeger
07-16-2005, 07:51
I was really refering to America.
In my opinion, the American military is home to the best and the brightest patriots we have in this country. There just good people who want the best for this country, not themselves (for the most part).
I trust them far more than the politicians to remain loyal to the constitution and the american people. After all, they do put their lives on the line for those things.
In any event, if there were ever a major attack or a crisis in confidence, I wouldnt mind a justified transfer of power or even a military coup.. but thats probably the Prussian in me speaking. ~;)
Papewaio
07-16-2005, 08:55
What you read is not what you are.
Case 1.
Reading Playboy does not make you a Playboy.
Case 2.
Reading Philosophy does not make you a Philosopher.
----
People read for many different reasons. Information, learning, knowledge, work, brain dumping, relaxation, broader understanding, connectivity etc.
When I was doing my physics degree I was reading physics textbooks for knowledge and fantasy books for relaxation. I still read fantasy books because they take me away from my very real data centric job to something else.
I have also read the first three Harry Potters...
a) To find out what all the fuss is about... turns out it is essentially Dungeons and Dragons set in modern day UK. Nothing particularly orginal about mixing up ancient mythology and magic for a book.
b) To try and figure out how I too could make a million dollars writing a book... turns out her writing style is quite vivid and humourous, and hence difficult to emulate that same mass appeal to youngsters... a very hard market to crack, but if you do they tend to swarm towards the latest fad as a massive group... just compare music choices for the young and how they rapidly diversify as they get older.
----
And some of you have to read about group intelligence theory. It essential boils down to the fact that a lot of simple agents can find the best fit solution to a problem quicker then a few expert agents.
Democracies also have the ability to adapt the societies they control quicker. While juntas have an issue with any change. Adapt and Thrive or Freeze and Die.
bmolsson
07-16-2005, 10:01
Reading Playboy does not make you a Playboy.
Uhu..... :embarassed:
Society is fine.
I mean I never would have dressed up as a wizard last night for a while so people can go and get a book at midnight in the past would I?
Assuming you can count it as a book and not just a random stream of words.
What is wrong with society.
In the old days, we had a saying "keeping up with the Jones". There are now so many "Jones" around, no one can keep up.
The "Cult of Individualism". This started in a big way on the 1970's and everyone recognised the excesses of that in the 80's and stemmed from that the 1987 crash. Remember the rise of the "Yuppie". This "Cult of Individualism" persists to this day in the form of "consumerism", sponsored by banks and debt. This replaced the "Keeping up with the Jones".
People are being to taught to look after themselves more and more. As an example; a lot of people will not testify against "Gang" crime, because of fear of retribution against the witness and the witness's family. Therefore people are protecting themselves, but harming soceity, by protecting the criminals. We can sit in our "Ivory Towers" and say he/she should because in the long term things will get worst. However, these people look at the here and now, and when these people have no hope of getting out of the "neighbourhood", what can they do.
As to ignoring people who need help. I also ignore "beggars" here in Auckland, because I know that there are options for them if they want to find them. Some I recognise have asking me for a $1 or $2 coin for the last 3-4 years. Why haven't they seeked help in that time. Are they just lazy ?
As to the Japanese incident described earlier in an another thread. I would probably get her our of the "Waste Bin". There is some ways you should not threat people. As to the bloodied injured person also in the same thread. As a First Aider I would offer help. The risk of getting AIDS is a lot lower than the risk of the person dying. You can generally use a "barrier" like a hankie or your own shirt to minimise the risk further.
Remember we are all part of "society". However soceity is now a more a group of self interested individuals, then a community of like-minded people.
Franconicus
07-18-2005, 07:40
-If you want to blame a group for ruining today's culture, blame the grown up hippies of the 60s and 70s. They pioneered the "values" of laziness, immorality, junk culture, and a disinterest in learning. Theyve grown up now and have a big influence on the media and popular culture.
You are right and wrong with one statement.
People in the 60ies tried to 'increase their view' in everyway, taking drugs, reading books about philosophy, discussions and in trying new ways to live. You should never call them disinterest in learning. Maybe the 60ies was the generation that tried to learn more than any other.
In the 60ies it seemed that everything was possible. That you could go and find a new, better way of life, for you and for the society. Even though they changed a lot they had to learn in the 70ies that they could not change the society the way they wanted to and that they had to adapt. Frustration. Most changed their lifes to become normal citizens (some even conservatives). But a large group decided to take revenge. With the knowledge and the phrases they learned in the 60ies they wrote esotheric books and made a lot of money with that. So you are right, a lot of the rubbish comes from the 60ies.
What's wrong with Society? It's gotten cheaper, it's gotten faster, it's gotten ADD. We aren't doomed but things don't look great. Look at the last few movies. Think about the books you see closest to the door in book stores and Walgreens, cheap plug and print mysteries, mass reproduced Clancy wannabe techno thrillers, and poorly concealed literary soft-core porn. The music is mostly songs with the same theme and the same story. Hell Nashville Country is just some American Idol singer with a hat, jeans, flanel shirt, and a twang.
The other problem is apathy. People are more concerned about that naked guy on Survivor, than two wars being fought. And the news is about runaway brides and TOM CRUISE AND SCIENTOLOGY oh yeah and that war. /Rant off
Big_John
07-18-2005, 09:02
What you read is not what you are.
Case 1.
Reading Playboy does not make you a Playboy.
Case 2.
Reading Philosophy does not make you a Philosopher.:shocked3:
now you tell me! i wasted all this time trying to catch a body coming though the rye.. :worried:
I would normally agree with that, but I disagree for one reason. If the people were more intelligent, which is school's responsibility, then there would more people shopping for similar things as me. If you consider the alternative: Communism, there would no Niettzsche or any other books that could be even remotely against communist thought. Capitalism allows for whatever you want. Which is precisely why people need to be educated properly, not the idiotic "poster making" education we have here in Canada.
Well, public schools are designed, first and foremost, to keep kids off the street. Secondly, there are plenty of other alternatives to Capitalism other than Communism.
However, I agree that the particular brand of indoctrination we have in Canada sucks like a Hoover.
Well, public schools are designed, first and foremost, to keep kids off the street.
Incorrect - that was not why public schools were designed and then funded by the taxpayers of many nations. However that is how many parents treat school nowadays - to include the students themselves.
Secondly, there are plenty of other alternatives to Capitalism other than Communism.
And most are just as ineffictent or worse the Capitalism
However, I agree that the particular brand of indoctrination we have in Canada sucks like a Hoover.
All one must do is look at why - normally the answer for such can be seen looking into the mirror - and within the people immediately around you. Lack of desire to recieve an education comes from ........ (insert your choice of words)
|OCS|Virus
07-19-2005, 13:26
I like the stupid youths of today, it makes it easier for youths like me to make it to heights I could not normaly achieve.
Byzantine Prince
07-20-2005, 04:00
Yeah but you see I don't see how youths are necessarilly any worse then the adults. Adults were youths some day, and IMO the era in which they were raised does not make that much of a difference, as opposed to the amount of culture they recieve. And no culture is not just having read literature.
What you read is not what you are.
Case 1.
Reading Playboy does not make you a Playboy.
Case 2.
Reading Philosophy does not make you a Philosopher.
No one, and certainly not me, stated that they are philosophers. And if you read, study, and understand philosophy DOES make you a philosopher, because philosophy mean love of knowledge.
Reading Playboy does make you horny though, it definetly has an effect on you. ~D
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