Turkey into EU or not ? [Archive]

LeftEyeNine

07-20-2005, 01:47

I think this is the most convenient place to discuss Turkey's integration into EU community.

I must say that I will not explain or interrupt anything as long as you directly not ask about it. Because I just want to see what people from all over the world say about this interesting subject when they gather together.

How far do you think Turkey can fit into EU? What does affect your thoughts and impressions about Turkey? What can you suggest to happen, if you have any other ideas ?

As I said before, I will NOT interrupt the discussion unless you ask me about anything. This is a valuable opportunity for me to get some point of views directly, so please do not hesitate to go with sharing it.

Thanks in advance..

Don Corleone

07-20-2005, 01:50

I think you 'would' have made a fine fit, but as long as Chirac is in charge, you're going to pay for ever thinking of joining the US in Iraq by not being allowed in. I hold nothing against the French at large, but Chirac, he never forgets, nor forgives. You broke ranks, (well, with the EU, you kept ranks with NATO) and there's not much you can do to make ammends for that.

Zalmoxis

07-20-2005, 02:43

Um, only part of Turkey is technically part of Europe, so only that part should be in the EU? I don't know what else to say.

Spetulhu

07-20-2005, 02:59

Not as long as they continue to occupy half of Cyprus. Not that they should have been allowed to stay in NATO either after that stunt, but rules were made to be bent.

King of Atlantis

07-20-2005, 04:13

How can turkey be in the Eu, it is hardly in europe...

bmolsson

07-20-2005, 06:12

I think Turkey should be a part of EU. It's a long road, but in the end it would benefit both EU and Turkey.

Ronin

07-20-2005, 09:08

i´ll say yes....but not anytime soon...

i think the EU should take longer breaks between admissions....allow for time for the new countries to get integrated before taking on new ones...

Turkey is a diferent pickle from the rest we´ve let in....with the cyprus situation and everything....a longer preparation period might be better to sort all of this stuff out.

Al Khalifah

07-20-2005, 09:20

Only part of Europe is technically in Europe - which would be Greece. Asia is technically in Turkey. These terms are pretty antiquated now.

The geographic argument against Turkey is not the best. A far better argument would be their poor human-rights record or their fragile economy or their lack of any belief in the European values or their occupation of half of Cyprus.

edyzmedieval

07-20-2005, 09:35

I would approve Turkey in the EU, but, after a long time of preparations.

With suicide attacks, there's no way that they can enter.

LeftEyeNine

07-20-2005, 09:49

..With suicide attacks, there's no way that they can enter...

Sorry to interrupt, but this is a baseless claim.. So you think that Turkey is guilty for 7/7 London ?

I will no interrupt does not mean that, flame your fiction off, edzymedieval. Those guys killed many in Istanbul attacks last summer. Please give a reasonable point of view..

Radier

07-20-2005, 10:10

Only 3% of Turkey is in EU.

Their primeminister seems to be a madman too... Just look at my sig.

And it´s enough of muslims in EU allready. We don´t need another 70 millions...

King Henry V

07-20-2005, 10:20

Sorry to interrupt, but this is a baseless claim.. So you think that Turkey is guilty for 7/7 London ?

I will no interrupt does not mean that, flame your fiction off, edzymedieval. Those guys killed many in Istanbul attacks last summer. Please give a reasonable point of view..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4688575.stm

Snowhobbit

07-20-2005, 10:23

When they have a better record of human rights and have left Cyprus, I can see little reason for not allowing them in.
Hums People are people

King of Atlantis

07-20-2005, 10:24

I cant see the Eu ever making decisions if it is so diverse.

King Henry V

07-20-2005, 10:25

I do not think that Turkey should be allowed to join the EU, firstly because of the geographical argument and the poor situation of HR, and secondly, with its first world skills and third world wages, it is likely to destory the EU....Hang on! We should welcome Turkey with open arms! ~;)

LeftEyeNine

07-20-2005, 10:37

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4688575.stm

The news you talk about goes like this :

"...A group called the Kurdish Liberation Hawks (Tak) said it carried out the bombing in Cesme on 10 July.

Their overall aim is to force the Turkish government to grant autonomy to the predominantly Kurdish south-east of the country, but the means to that end appears to be to strike at the tourism industry - the life blood of the Turkish economy, our correspondent says.

The Tak is an offshoot of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), which has been fighting the government for independence since 1984. More than 37,000 people have been killed in the 20-year campaign by the PKK, which is considered a terrorist organisation by the US and EU..."

PKK, the Kurdish terrorist group that killed over 30.000 people since 1984, generally used to attempt these kinds of attacks in touristic places of Turkey in the previous years as well.

However their activity was really stopped with continous operations of Turkish Armed Forces for a long time. And when that EU thing showed up itself, they want to create fear over foreigners about Turkey to make social impact on them.

This bombing has no relationship with Islamic terrorism. Islamic terrorism has significant and clear targets, you'll find out if you ever work on it out a bit.

Consequently, this assault was not Turkish job, it was obviously Kurdish terrorists' job. There are 13 millions of them in Turkey as a community. And know that not anyone who calls himself "Turk" may not really be "Turk", especially those living in EU countries. We have really differencies with Kurdish society. And there is an endless conflict between two nations since the foundation of Turkey. BTW, I am Turkish in origin.

Edit : You may want to read about the comments on the related news which belong to British tourists that visited Turkey.

el_slapper

07-20-2005, 10:47

Turkey is technically in military occupation of 1/3 of an EU country. As long as this is not properly solved(whatever the solution, as long as locals are approving it), Turkey in Europe is a no-go in my book.

Radier

07-20-2005, 10:47

http://www.voiceforeurope.org/

I think the best thing to do is to vote all over Europe. "Shall Turkey enter the European Union?"

LeftEyeNine

07-20-2005, 10:58

Erm, one more thing.. I am an anti-EU sider.

lancelot

07-20-2005, 11:15

Im afraid I would say no.

Firstly I dont really consider turkey 'european'. I wonder what percentage of turks do either?

Second, I envisage a lot of cheap labour moving across the border. The UK, IMHO, has far too much cheap labour coming from slavic nations and former colonies. I believe this only benefits big business and fat cat corporations...hence my distaste.

Third, (and this is not my particular opinion-but I will play devil's advocate here) but what will the EU get out of turkey's membership? Will any benefits outweigh the cost?

Tiger_Tamerlane

07-20-2005, 11:27

Since 1963 the EU have promised the turkey that they can join.
They have wished many things from the turkey.The Turkey have paid
the prise and still doing it.That`s one of the causes why the turkey
havent had grow so fast as many eastasian countrys.
Now must pay the EU the bill, will be a interest question if they do it.
Or if they show how pharisee the EU is in true ~:)
Im in origin turk,and i will not that the turkey join the EU.
I will a independet turkey politic ,wich is only for TURK interest`s.
Not for european interest.I hope that the EU will say "NO" and then the
turkey can do what good is for the turkey,without any recard of any
european interest`s.

Tiger_Tamerlane

07-20-2005, 11:34

PS : The european project is dead.To many country ,to many interest.
And the system havent get modernised.The demographic factor shows
that the Eurpean will be a "Old" ppl comunity in 25 years.With all the implements
that that will have in his economy.The asia country still growing.And the
Pacific Country getting the core of the world economy (China,USA,Japan,Australia).The atlantik getting to be pheripehiria.
In the near east ,turkey inclusive, 50 % of the ppl are under 24 years.
They have a good part of they producitve life in front of them. Why joining
the EU and aid this "old" ppl comunity in 20-25 years ???? The idea of joining
was good 1960 ,but now 2005 with the look in the future,its crazy for
the turkey to join the EU,it can`t profite so much from it.It will be
a burden for the turkey,nothing else.

Tiger_Tamerlane

07-20-2005, 11:37

Look the STAT`s plz.The studys about how the world will be in
25-50 years.All showing the same,the european star is not sinking,its
sunken.The Power of this world will be concentrate in Asia.Not in European,the
times are over.The world coming there ,where it was before the 17-19th Century.The World Power coming home,to asia.

King Henry V

07-20-2005, 14:22

Well if the Turks don't want to join either, then everything's cozy for me! Further reasons for me include: Border with Iraq and other countries which could in the future harbour terrorism. If Turkey upon accession signs the Schengen Agreement, by which all common borders between EU countries are abolished, terrorists could easily slip through a hard to police border, and thus the rest of Europe could be open.

We have really differencies with Kurdish society. And there is an endless conflict between two nations since the foundation of Turkey.
Why not just give them independance? Surely a minority 13 million strong has the right to an independant homeland? Or is that what the Turkish politicians and cetain members like to deny, such as the Armenian Genocide?

Tiger_Tamerlane

07-20-2005, 14:25

Tiger_Tamerlane

07-20-2005, 14:30

Then the split of the Islamic World have a end and the Chalif is back soon.
Since 500 years Istanbul and the turks where the middle of the Islamic world,
maybe we can back to our routs and be a supreme power their ~;)
That`s a much better alternative for the turkey as to be a junior partner
in the EU and its much better for the islamic world too.
Then European have no border with IRAK/Iran/Syria.But European will
end then for sure at the gates of Istanbul,in all dimesions.A good step
to reduce the diplomtic power of Europe in the world.
Welcome m8,in a complex world.If u dont understand it,maybe it will be
better if ur think about in a greater combination and not in this
details,how u do it.

Tiger_Tamerlane

07-20-2005, 14:34

Scotland,Northirland,Korsica,Sardinien,Baskenland,Wales .......
The list is endless in europe too.Why u give this ppl not independence ?
And have u ask anytime why the turkish army have march in on
Cybrus ? Anyone have ask what happened before the genoizide ?
That`s not interest or ?
Why not ?
Because u have only one dimension of the things,u never see the other side.
Only the chrisitian fundemantal side.Europe is not modern for me,was it never.
And i know his history ,his political system.

King Henry V

07-20-2005, 14:58

Thats what i mean m8.hehe
no border for european with iran/irak/syria.
hehe
independet politic for turkey
Why cant the turkey build up a new islamic alliance with the iran then ?
Hehe,why cant the turkey build then a islamic atomebomb then ,hehe ?
will be nice then.
A Turkey with a independet politics.Islamic,Atomebomb and maybe
not so friendly to the west ~;) Great !!! GO ON M8s !!!!
Not European !! Islamic Power "!!!
Iran*1000 = Turkey in the near future.WILL BE NICE !!
Great we have an Islamic extremist who advocates the threat/use of an atomic bomb to get his political desires. And he spams by cutting up one post into three.

Scotland,Northirland,Korsica,Sardinien,Baskenland, Wales .......
The list is endless in europe too.Why u give this ppl not independence ?
Because the situation is not quite so dire as they plant bombs in to kill people. A desperate situation sometimes calls for desperate remedy.

Because u have only one dimension of the things,u never see the other side.
Isn't that the kettle calling the pot black?

Louis VI the Fat

07-20-2005, 15:37

Thats what i mean m8.hehe
no border for european with iran/irak/syria.
hehe
Why cant the turkey build up a new islamic alliance with the iran then ?
Hehe,why cant the turkey build then a islamic atomebomb then ,hehe ?
will be nice then.
A Turkey with a independet politics.Islamic,Atomebomb and maybe
not so friendly to the west ~;) Great !!! GO ON M8s !!!!
Not European !! Islamic Power "!!!
Iran*1000 = Turkey in the near future.WILL BE NICE !!Best of luck with your ayatollah friends, m8.

Mind if we're not to keen on having a Turkey where this sort of sentiment is still rife joining us?

the Chalif is back soonNope. The followers of Mustapha Kemal Atatürk won't have it.

Personally, I think Turkey is both western and eastern. Modern and backwards.
A bewildering mix of Europe and Asia. It reminds me a bit of Russia in many respects, I'm often not quite sure what to make of it. But at the end of the day, like Russia, Turkey is too big and too 'Eurasian' to join the EU.

A good web of trade agreements and social, economic, environmental, military cooperation to our mutual benefit will suffice.
I like the Turks that I've met and I hope their country prospers, but we share neither a common past nor a common destiny.

*Where's Mouzzaphere when you need him? We need the voice of Turkish reason.*

LeftEyeNine

07-20-2005, 16:22

Why not just give them independance? Surely a minority 13 million strong has the right to an independant homeland? Or is that what the Turkish politicians and cetain members like to deny, such as the Armenian Genocide?

Since you do not live in Turkey, you just can't get how thing are f***ed up with Kurds. I could tell about their disgusting way of life till morning if we ever had the chance to chat or meet. And one Kurd would tell you about what kind of poverty he / she is dealing with.

Kurds will never and ever find independence neither in Turkey nor any where on the world they live. Because one community becomes a "nation" when they have the conscious of being a nation, that's a sociological fundamental. Kurds have never had an independent country of their own, all thorugh the history. Even their descendants are sitll suspicious by historians.

And let me tell you that the wealthy Kurds living in Turkey say "What indepedence? What Kurdistan? Joking or what?". The chaos is created by those dealing with extreme poverty where PKK feeds himself by.

Aah, if we could ever meet King Henry V. I'd let you knock down what's wrong with what you know about Turks.

By the way, that guy talking about the Caliphate or something with Turkey, no, followers of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk will never let you do it as one friend said..

Meneldil

07-20-2005, 16:31

Don, actually, Chirac was one of the few European leaders to claim that Turkey deserved to enter the EU. You know, that's part of his "get along with all the muslims" international policy.

Right now, I don't really want of Turkey in the EU. If the country was still ruled by someone like Ataturk, I would have no problem, but there's now a lot of islamist nuts there, and we already have enough of them in EU.

On the other hand I think EU is a great chance for Turkey. It would help this country to get more wealthier.

Don Corleone

07-20-2005, 16:43

Meneldil,
I know he was in favor of Turkish membership at one point, but I thought he personally was the guy who blocked the initial votes to grant them 'exploratory' status, or whatever you call it when you're just being considered. And I thought it was because they didn't stand w/ France & Germany against the US on Iraq. I could have my facts knockered, won't be the first or the last time. ~:confused:

A.Saturnus

07-20-2005, 19:06

Historically, west-Anatolya was always more European than Asian. That means that half of the population of Turkey is already European. In addition, Turkey is as a secular country quite Western, certainly compared to its Arabian and Persian neighbours. Its economy is growing and its population young and motivated. It still has along way to go, but it has made tremendous leaps in the last years. It would be a shame if the only thing that stops it from joining were prejudice and racism on European side.

Kagemusha

07-20-2005, 19:25

I have nothing against Turkey eventually joining EU.But now EU isnt ready for it we should digest Eastern European countries first. :bow:

BDC

07-20-2005, 19:56

Bring them in. We need the labour, and it's better them in than hanging about with that messy middle-eastern crowd.

lancelot

07-20-2005, 20:35

Why cant the turkey build up a new islamic alliance with the iran then ?
Hehe,why cant the turkey build then a islamic atomebomb then ,hehe ?
will be nice then.
A Turkey with a independet politics.Islamic,Atomebomb and maybe
not so friendly to the west ~;) Great !!! GO ON M8s !!!!
Not European !! Islamic Power "!!!
Iran*1000 = Turkey in the near future.WILL BE NICE !!

What the hell does turkey need an atomic bomb for?!?! To bully other nations with perhaps??? How enlightened... ~:rolleyes:

I doubt turkey will ever be a threat to europe, mate....ever.

Furthermore, turkey wants to be in the EU...seems like your 'views' are in the minority.

By the way, ever heard of the M.A.D theorem???

Take your atomic theories back to the 50's where they belong.

@BDC. Good god man, thats the last thing we need! We have one of the densest populations as it is. Cheap labour only benefits big buisiness who take advantage of workers and corrupt the progress of worker's rights.

BDC

07-20-2005, 21:00

@BDC. Good god man, thats the last thing we need! We have one of the densest populations as it is. Cheap labour only benefits big buisiness who take advantage of workers and corrupt the progress of worker's rights.

Yes because we aren't going to have a horrific issue with a massive population drawing pensions and a tiny working population in a few years are we? Wait, we are! And flesh blood brings fresh ideas and innovation, which bring money.

Meneldil

07-20-2005, 21:03

Don, I'm like 98% sure of it. He was the only french politician to agree with Turkey entering into the EU.
And when I say only, I mean that even his own party was against it.

King Henry V

07-21-2005, 11:12

Aah, if we could ever meet King Henry V. I'd let you knock down what's wrong with what you know about Turks.

So that means you would correct me with your state processed version of history?

Dâriûsh

07-21-2005, 11:35

Assalamu Alaikum, LeftEyeNine. ~;)

I’m not against a future admission of Turkey into the EU, or perhaps another sort of agreement. But I’m worried about current human rights issues and the influence of the Turkish military.

@lancelot
Regarding the whole European “they’ll flood us with cheap labor” argument, isn’t that what they said about Spain prior to 1986?

LeftEyeNine

07-21-2005, 12:36

So that means you would correct me with your state processed version of history?

You do not know what kind of life we have here, do you ?

It is not that "so give them independence"-easy thing we are dealing with Kurds over here, do you know that ?

Encyclopedic paragraphs do not write that nor my so-called state processed history does. When it is the Kurd thing, it is a lot more than an outsider's historical geekness. BEcause the Kurd issue is not a historical one anymore.

Briefly, you may be excelled at history, but that's not I would tell you about.

However, forget it. I broke my promise about the thread several times and will try not to do that again because the discussion here goes a lot interesting an quality as I expected.

rasoforos

07-21-2005, 13:29

Kurdish people have been forcibly repatriated. Kurdish language was illegal and is still discouraged. 20% of the country's population are Kurds. Its time some people stop chewing on internal propaganda. I think the best solution is a federated Turkey where Kurdistan will not be independent but will enjoy a high level of autonomy. As long as people in Turkey dont realise that they will keep having internal problems. The Kurds somehow managed to escape the ethnic cleansing withing Turkey and some people in power never forgot that...

And of course the problem with Cyprus is there. As long as they occupy 40% of the country, EU territory now, they dont stand a chance. The stubborness of a bunch of military generals is costing Turkey its future today.

And lets not forget human rights. Turkey has taken great steps and that honours them, however there is still a lot of way to go.

Finally, Turkey has a council of generals with veto power over the parliament. Although the council is not as powerfull as it used to be, its still there. How would a military dictatoship actually fit in the EU?

Having said all that, I do want a Turkey, if out of Cyprus, democratised, with Kurdish people having rights to join the EU. It would be great for investment and would give the EU the chance to explore middle eastern and central Asian markets. It would really speed up the growth of other eastern european EU states as well.

...now i m afraid Turkish growth will be harmed since a lot of people had been expecting them to do the reasonable thing.