GTA and the ESRB [Archive]

Catiline

07-21-2005, 15:12

See here, http://www.esrb.org/about_updates.asp#7-20-05

GTA San Andreas has been reclassified as an AO in the US.

More menacingly for games long term, and why i'm posting here is the following part of the statement

'Furthermore, the ESRB calls on the computer and video game industry to proactively protect their games from illegal modifications by third parties, particularly when they serve to undermine the accuracy of the rating'

wooohooo, lets lock everything down. Lets see you complain about CA then :)

i should state a degree of interest here, I'm mate's with a school friend of the guy who started Rockstar which has given me some entertaining insight into this...

edyzmedieval

07-21-2005, 15:19

Man,

If I want to get GTA San Andreas, I have to get it fast.....

Geoffrey S

07-21-2005, 15:56

It seems a bit strange to base the age rating on the possibility of certain mods; if this were applied to all games any game featuring buxom female characters and enthusiastic skinners (just about any modern FPS) would have to be rated differently, if you get my drift...

Steppe Merc

07-21-2005, 16:01

Yeah, Morrowind would be screwed...

But what rights do they have to call modders illegal? We're not selling it, are we?

I don't particullary care for GTA or those sort of games, but I am worried about how it may effect games that I like.

Crazed Rabbit

07-21-2005, 17:00

I believe that GTA had the 'AO' stuff already, and was just 'unlocked' by a mod.

The real problem is what Cataline stated, that ESRB seems to want to crack down on mods. Since it'd be impossible just to stop bad mods, all mods would be skewered.

Crazed Rabbit

IliaDN

07-21-2005, 17:02

What is AO?

Geoffrey S

07-21-2005, 17:28

Adults Only.

IliaDN

07-21-2005, 17:35

Thanks.
As for the game - I abondoned at the flight school.

Spino

07-21-2005, 18:19

Rockstar games really shot themselves in the foot with this incident. Either they thought themselves too cute and clever for their own good and this unlockable content would simply fly under the radar of the 'powers that be' or a few programmers quietly slipped this stuff into the game without telling anyone. Lots of games ship with hidden content and features that are either inactive or are left overs from earlier builds. Just look at the stuff modders have discovered when perusing through the files for RTW. There's a good chance GTA:SA's racy content was never detected because most of the development staff and the beta testers never knew the codes to unlock it. Take Two's execs must be positively livid over this, it won't be long before the axe falls on a bunch of heads at Take Two and Rockstar Games. What's worse is the negative effect this is going to have on the gaming industry.

Compelling or forcing game publishers to 'lock up' their games and curb modding doesn't stand much of a chance. Speaking purely in terms of the bottom line the potential impact on sales thanks to user made mods is simply too great for publishers to ignore.

Blodrast

07-21-2005, 19:07

Mongoose

07-21-2005, 19:23

LOL-I guess this means any game with a female character is going to get rated "AO" ~D

That or they have try to stop modding...wait...doesn't EB plan on adding a special skin after release for the "Gasaetae"? :fainting:

Marshal Murat

07-21-2005, 20:28

Then RTW is going to be pulled becuase of "male genitalia" in the game!
Then ABC is going to do something about video games, and the harmful effects on people.

Steppe Merc

07-21-2005, 20:58

It's not going to be a special skin. It's going to be natrually naked. ~D

King of Atlantis

07-21-2005, 21:13

ESRN is stupid. One of the things that is keeping the computer game indusrty alive over systems is the mods..

Marshal Murat

07-21-2005, 22:08

I'm suprised it took this long to find out about the mod (hehehe)

The_Doctor

07-21-2005, 22:48

I thought it was for the PS2? ~:confused:

Murmandamus

07-22-2005, 00:29

shrug, I don't really see how they can enforce this.
take any piece of software, reverse engineer it, and voila, you have a mod.
besides, there's mod-making tools for lots and lots of non-straightforwardly-moddable games...once something like that is out, anybody can create mods of their own...

A mod is something external that is added to the game to modify it in some way. An easter egg is something that is already in the game and is unlocked. So, I'm a bit confused here. Why is this being called a mod when from everything I can read on it, it's quite clearly an easter egg.

Pretty low of Rockstar to try and blame "hackers" for something they clearly put in the game themselves. It wouldn't surprise me if it was intentional anyway. I wonder how many people went out and bought it because of this. Any publicity is good publicity.

This isn't the first time something like this has happened either. I remember there was a game where some devs put in an easter egg that made a parade in the game a gay madigras with something like a 1 in 1000 chance of it being played. They got sacked for it.

Marshal Murat

07-22-2005, 01:12

Sim Copter I think.

I say its a mod, because as you said, easter eggs are unlocked. This couldn't have possibly have been unlocked, but modded to be unlocked.

Blodrast

07-22-2005, 02:10

I don't think there's much point in getting stuck on exact definitions and semantic subtleties, but the point is that a mod CAN add something that doesn't already exist in the game, or can CREATE nudity (or whatever other objectionable things).
To be technical about it, it can't be considered an easter egg since it couldn't have been unlocked, just as Marshal Murat pointed out.
And there's been lots of nude/gross/explicit mods for plenty of other games out there. Nude quake characters would be one of the more popular ones, I suppose.

Either way, it's not very important. The point is that IF this request of ESRB is actually implemented by game makers, it will do nothing but hinder the game industry, because:
1. it will stop game creators from making easily moddable games, a perfect example of this being the text files in RTW. Most nude/gore/whatever unacceptable mods do not come from this kind of moddability.
2. it will not stop people who reverse-engineer the games from creating mod-engines, or implementing the very things that the ESRB is concerned about.

So all in all, it would do nothing but hurt. My opinion, of course.
But then again, why would y'all expect that the decision factors in ESRB are more than simple bureaucrats, for whom logic is not exactly their strong point ? ...

Alexander the Pretty Good

07-22-2005, 03:21

I think it could be considered an Easter Egg. Who says they have to be unlocked? The hidden Amazons in Rome: Total War don't have to be unlocked, and they can be considered an Easter Egg. The Egyptian Protectorate message is one too, in my opninion. "All your base are belong to us" is not a standard or historical message. And since it is not advertised or enumerated as a feature, I think it could be classified as hidden.

Wikipedia's article on Easter Eggs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg_%28virtual%29)

In computing, Easter eggs are messages, graphics, sound effects, or an unusual change in program behaviour, that occur in a program in response to some undocumented set of commands, mouse clicks, keystrokes or other similar stimuli intended as a joke or to display program credits. A former use of the term Easter egg was to describe a message hidden in the object code of a program as a joke, intended to be found by persons disassembling or browsing the code.

So the ESRB is wrong for cracking down on mods, but only because that's the press this is getting. It's been mislabelled, and modifications can only stand to lose.

Stupid Rockstar.

Papewaio

07-22-2005, 04:13

It is an Easter Egg for coders.

So by giving it to mods they have endorsed mods bypassing the ratings.

If the mods did it independently well that is another case.

Independent mods is like a kid getting a crayon and drawing an x-rated picture of mummy and daddy.

Giving them the images is like giving a kid a crayon and a join the dots x-rated picture of mummy and daddy.

Rockstar is guilty of the later.

Alexander the Pretty Good

07-22-2005, 04:31

That's a good analogy, Pape.

OT: You have to have the second highest (or close to it) post counts. I just noticed that. But you're still 3k behind JAG. ~D

Navaros

07-22-2005, 05:20

Rockstar games really shot themselves in the foot with this incident.

on the contrary: Rockstar benefitted tremendously. they got themselves months worth of free publicity from every source imaginable

now that they got 'caught' and are being 'punished', they will just censor the game in the same way they censored Vice City for being too controversial

the censored San Andreas game will have an M rating, then it's business as usual for Rockstar

Rockstar loses nothing, and gains a ton of publicity/word of mouth

Papewaio

07-22-2005, 06:05

OT: You have to have the second highest (or close to it) post counts. I just noticed that. But you're still 3k behind JAG. ~D

Too busy making babies to keep up the post count ~D

Productivity

07-22-2005, 07:17

Way to concentrate on something that is relatively harmless, but let this (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=60093) get by with minimal fuss.

Should this be in the Backroom?, it's primarily politics even if it is somewhat based on games.

discovery1

07-22-2005, 08:05

No one will buy that racist game. Not only is it racist but I can guarantee you that the graphics are terrible and the story nonexistant.

That is probably why no one cares.

Fragony

07-22-2005, 14:13

Well you can pick up hookers, slit the throat of a grannie or chainsaw a police officer to death. That kind stuff gets a 18+ rating in movies in the usa if I am not mistaken, so why not in a game.

Proletariat

07-22-2005, 14:21

Good point. You can steal cars, assassinate cops, kill hookers, and now all of a sudden this game has crossed the line?

BFD.

Geoffrey S

07-22-2005, 15:02

It's not just a matter of whether it encourages violence or not. Games, more than any other medium, draw people into their world. In this light I find it absurd that so few games actually have age restrictions, more so the fact that shops rarely enforce these restrictions. Just as young children shouldn't really be allowed to watch various horror films they shouldn't be allowed to play a game like GTA San Andreas. Games have grown up, yet many parents and apparently politicians don't seem to recognize that games need similar rules to movies. It would also help if game developers realised this.

Bah, that didn't come out too clearly. Basically the point I want to make is that games need to be taken seriously as an entertainment medium, along with the fact that games with adult themes should be for adults only.

Blodrast

07-22-2005, 19:27

The idea of labeling and giving ratings, I agree with. The way it is implemented in reality, I don't. I'm not gonna go into detail exactly why, because it would be a very long post probably. Therefore, I am against labeling and ratings.
I'll give two illustrative (I think) examples below. People can draw their own conclusions from this...

I remember having seen "Commando" (it's like 15 years old, with the gov'nor of California); if you haven't seen it, Arnie takes on an entire army by himself, and, not surprisingly, wins. Well, as you may imagine, the movie is entirely about fighting.
As a kid, I'd watched the movie a few dozen times, so I knew it pretty well. There is a scene where Arnie goes into a tool shed, closes the door (!), the enemy soldiers surround the shed and fire half a million rounds all over the place. Then they go inside to see the body, and, surprise, Arnie is alive and well and kills them all with tools from the shed (hatchet, knife, saw, etc). Not really gory or anything, imho of course. In the censored version, you get to see the soldiers surrounding the shed, you get to see them start shooting, you get to see one of them go to open the door after they stop shooting, and then you see Arnie walking away from the shed with a dozen corpses on the ground. WTF ? What's the point in showing the movie at all if you simply cut out a bunch of fight scenes ?! What are we supposed to watch it for, witty dialogue and great landscapes ??

I can also recall NYTimes' comment about "The Day After Tomorrow", and the fact that it has got a very lenient rating (G or something). It was something along the lines of "well, it's the end of the world, half the world is destroyed, billions of people die, but there's no nudity or drugs so it's okay" (cynical, obviously).

I'm afraid my personal opinion (and, as usual, nobody else has to agree with it), is that all this rating business is just hypocrisy. "Oh, we rate the movies/games, so it's out of our hands, our conscience is clean if the kids grow up into criminals, I mean, we rated the damn things, how can we be guilty of it ?! We're good parents, we're taking care of our country's youth !". Puhleeze.
I grew up watching probably more than your average kid's share of movies with violence, drugs and especially horror (no sex, admittedly :P) and such, and I haven't grown up into a criminal, I don't do drugs, I don't have a criminal record, etc, etc.
So that is not the problem, nor are the ratings a solution.

edit: oh well, it looks like this is kinda moving away from games...I guess it might be moved I suppose. Sorry if I caused that.

Colovion

07-22-2005, 19:32

I think the whole thing is ridiculous.

Hitting someone over the head with a golf club until they die and then repeatedly running over them with an automobile is much worse than a penis in a vagina.

I hate how paranoid the western world is of sex. Think about this absurd situation that the West (largely the US media and affialiates): Ads, Movies and Games are sold with largely two prime features: Sex and Violence. Suddenly people are upset, distressed and clueless how things go terribly or why children are no longer as innocent as they expect them to be or how such corrupting influences could possibly be out there.

:rolleyes:

Alexander the Pretty Good

07-22-2005, 22:33

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
However, the Unites States is, IMO, very backwards when compared to the rest of the world in regards to censorship in games. Alot of companies tone down the American versions of their games to get a lower rating. Imperial Glory, for example, has blood in it in foreign versions--but that had to be removed for the sake of ratings in the US Version. Same for blood in RTW, but that was removed entirely.
Why do companies (allegedly) tone down game content to get lower ratings? Probably because it makes money. There are (hopefully) enough parents out there who care about the media their children consume to make ratings a big deal. This is all off the top of my head, since I don't know any figures or statistics, but I bet Teen games (I guess 12+ in the UK, but I don't know) sell better than Mature games. And of course Mature games sell better than Adults Only. I don't know about "E for everyone" games - I doubt it. My guess is based on the number of Teen games out there - I have to believe they are the majority. So if companies are toning down their games, its because the consumer base (and, presumably, the majority of the nation) wants toned-down games. Of course, I could be 100% wrong on this.

My point: companies only "tune down" games because it gets them more $$$. It is not censorship and its not backwards.

As a side note, CA (http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessage?topicID=19529.topic) has more than one reason to keep blood out of their games:

Firstly, we don’t put blood into TW games. We’ve been criticized for this because it’s not realistic, but it has no impact on playability. It’s still quite easy to tell who is dead on the battlefield without great gouts of blood. It was argued - and quite convincingly - that blood would actually reduce playability because graphics cards would have to do something that is, essentially, ‘eye candy’. Incidentally, it would also have affected the game’s certification (the T or 12 rating) to put in blood too.

Originally Posted by Colovion
I think the whole thing is ridiculous.

Hitting someone over the head with a golf club until they die and then repeatedly running over them with an automobile is much worse than a penis in a vagina.

I hate how paranoid the western world is of sex. Think about this absurd situation that the West (largely the US media and affialiates): Ads, Movies and Games are sold with largely two prime features: Sex and Violence. Suddenly people are upset, distressed and clueless how things go terribly or why children are no longer as innocent as they expect them to be or how such corrupting influences could possibly be out there.
Well, yes it is ridiculous. The game should be rated AO even without this mod available. And I think (though I don't know for sure) that there was plenty of sexual content (prostitution at the very least) anyway.

Proletariat

07-22-2005, 23:42

Oh great, I should have guessed the might Proletariat would seek to Censor games, too.

Did you read what I wrote? Wanna take a wild stab at what 'BFD' might stand for? It has the words Big and Deal in it.

I'm not for censoring anything. This is a non-issue that's being run away with by people with nothing better to do. (ESRB supporters)

The_Doctor

07-22-2005, 23:48

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/635/635629p1.html

I thought it was quite funny and made you think.

Colovion

07-22-2005, 23:59

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/635/635629p1.html

I thought it was quite funny and made you think.

haha, thanks for that. :2thumbsup:

The Wizard

07-23-2005, 01:31

The fools. Could they simply not have issued a warning through Rockstar, or forced them to release a patch that would have removed the content? Now we get this kind of crap.

Oh well, as if the crazy ESRB will effect us here. Ye olde European rating organization is a lot more lenient, even with the new reform.

~Wiz

Geoffrey S

07-23-2005, 14:05

Ah, those misguided censors. Anything to make a scene of it, get their plight into the media. And as for the media, it's so much easier to focus on this than on more important ongoing matters like Darfur.

Azi Tohak

07-24-2005, 18:01

Very nice Martinus. About as subtle as I was expecting...but...very nice.

Azi

Azi Tohak

07-24-2005, 18:11

Alex, younger rated games do not sell better. There are just more of them. Nintendo tried that. And they are getting smacked around here in the US by both Sony (big dog) and Xbox (little dog).

This is the June sales list:

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/635/635696p1.html

1. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas (Xbox) Take-Two (M now AO)

2. Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (PS2) LucasArts (T)

3. Conker: Live and Reloaded (Xbox) Microsoft (M)

4. Medal of Honor: European Assault (PS2) Electronic Arts (T)

5. LEGO Star Wars: The Video Game (PS2) Eidos (E)

6. Destroy All Humans! (PS2) THQ (T)

7. Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition (PS2) Take-Two (E)

8. Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith (Xbox) LucasArts (T)

9. Destroy All Humans! (Xbox) THQ (T)

10. Madagascar (PS2) Activision (E)

11. Medal of Honor: European Assault (Xbox) Electronic Arts (T)

12. Forza Motorsport (Xbox) Microsoft (E)

13. God of War (PS2) Sony (M)

14. Batman Begins (PS2) Electronic Arts (T)

15. LEGO Star Wars: The Video Game (Xbox) Eidos (E)

16. Juiced (PS2) THQ (E)

17. MVP Baseball 2005 (PS2) Electronic Arts (E)

18. Madagascar (Cube) Activision (E)

19. Advent Rising (Xbox) Majesco (T)

20. Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition (Xbox) Take-Two (E)

You'll see only 3 M games, but there are not that many new ones out. God of War has been out for a while, we all know about GTA and Conker is yet another Xbox M game.

For comparison, some of the highest selling games of this generation are: GTA:SA, Halo 1 and 2, Resident Evil 4 (right now only for Goody-two-shoes Nintendo), Half-Life 2. I can't think of one T or less that has sold as many copies as Halo 2 has for example.

Little kids like them because they are 'naughty' and they should not be playing them. And the kids know it. Parents are too damned lazy to figure out if what is entertaining their kids is a good thing or not. I think RE4 is one my favorite games of this generation. Should kids play it? Absolutely not. I think a not-zombies head exploding is hilarious. But will kids know the not-zombies are not real people? They sure do look good to me!

Rockstar has hurt the whole industry.

And Geoff S, you are absolutely right. That is the main thing that I hate about our media. "The flavor of the month (well usually week)". "If you don't watch our news program and find out just how evil video games are, you child will grow up to be either A. kill people for sport (ala Columbine) or B. be a useless adult just living to play games."

Makes me sick.

Azi

Alexander the Pretty Good

07-25-2005, 13:27

Kaiser of Arabia

07-25-2005, 16:51

We, as modders, should march apon the ESRB and protest. Then, I'll lead in the Sturmableitung and storm the building in a Coup d'eat (sp) and replace the ESRB with a more loyal council of me.

TheSilverKnight

07-25-2005, 17:45

We, as modders, should march apon the ESRB and protest. Then, I'll lead in the Sturmableitung and storm the building in a Coup d'eat (sp) and replace the ESRB with a more loyal council of me.

...you need to get out more ~D j/k Kaiser

Sasaki Kojiro

07-26-2005, 05:02

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=ticket_to_hell

Hilarious ~:joker:

doc_bean

07-26-2005, 09:43

Apparently, the people who made the Sims 2 are now being sold because there is a patch that allows you to see them naked. They look like barbie dolls then, but hey, it's a matter of principle !

Productivity

07-29-2005, 09:26

Apparently, the people who made the Sims 2 are now being sold because there is a patch that allows you to see them naked. They look like barbie dolls then, but hey, it's a matter of principle !

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_6129609.html

Here you go

:dizzy2: :dizzy2: :dizzy2:

Geoffrey S

07-29-2005, 10:09

Hardly worth making a fuss about. As has been stated if the blur is removed there is nothing offensive to be seen. How is this worse than kids dressing and undressing Barbie dolls and the like?

"Sims 2, the latest version of the Sims video game franchise ... contains, according to video game news sites, full frontal nudity, including nipples, penises, labia, and pubic hair.
It's great to see these people backing up their statements with firm, irrefutable evidence. "Video game news sites" hardly constitutes evidence, and this statement is obviously untrue to anyone who has actually played the game.

Papewaio

07-29-2005, 14:01

Why is it okay to blow someone away with a gun but terrible if a mouth is used instead...

This might explain why the Western world is having birthrate problems...

No sex just spank me instead ~:eek:

Movies and Video games are assessed by the same department in Australia.

doc_bean

07-29-2005, 14:20

Why is it okay to blow someone away with a gun but terrible if a mouth is used instead...

I always considered this to be more of a US problem than a Western one, if people complain about sex in public media here it's usually something along the lines of "Ew, we didn't want to see THAT, don't show it again".

Productivity

07-29-2005, 14:23

EDIT: Bah, I need to learn to read posts.

Navaros

07-30-2005, 09:08

The majority of those games (as you admitted) were T or E. Even though the worst offender is also the most successful, out of that list the money is probably on the side of the T and E (I can't know, since there are no figures). I would imagine that there are more high profile M games, but a greater number of T and E games (some of which do very well, like a certain Rome: Total War) means more money in those ratings ranges.

So individually, T and E games may not sell better, but as a whole I would bet they do.

And the ESRB is not a censor. Has it forcefully editted an game content? No. Then it's not a censor.

ESRB is not a direct censor, but because the ESRB exists, it causes devs to censor themselves (and hence dumb-down their art) in order to conform to the incorrect idea that "T" or lower rated games sell better

the only reason games like that generally do better is because there are a whole lot more of them on the market. hence there is bound to be more good games with those ratings on the market simply because they out-number the "M" rated games. the problem is simply that there are less good "M" rated games to choose from because many devs/Publishers don't have the cojones to make them.

the idea that having a game rated T or lower will make your game sell better is a myth that has been obliterated by hard data many, many times over the years. best example: any GTA game starting with GTA 3

it is sad that devs are still self-censoring their games in order to appease that myth. it is we the gamers who lose out because of that.

Alexander the Pretty Good

07-30-2005, 17:56

It obviously doesn't cause some developers to censor their games or "dumb down" them - though the idea that the games are dumbed down is absurd. If the ESRB was truly effective, the GTA series wouldn't be as edgy as it is.

And why does a game have to be M-rated to be good? The entire Total War series is rated "Teen" and it's pretty bloody ( ~;) ) good. And it never had much blood, except for the heavily pixelated dead body sprites.

the idea that having a game rated T or lower will make your game sell better is a myth that has been obliterated by hard data many, many times over the years. best example: any GTA game starting with GTA 3

I haven't seen any such "hard data." If you have some, please share.

it is sad that devs are still self-censoring their games in order to appease that myth. it is we the gamers who lose out because of that.
Still, you haven't shown that that is a "myth." Secondly, why must games include the "self-censored" content? Does Rome: Total War need mutilations, buckets of gore, sex-scenes, and prostitution to be a good game? No! So the argument that gamers lose out because of "self-censorship" is laughable. Games are not made first and foremost to have M-rated content in them. The games are made for some other purpose, and the content is included later for reasons like potential profits, atmosphere of the game, etc.

And YOU, Nav, are the last person I would expect to defend Grand Theft Auto. This is priceless.

Papewaio

08-01-2005, 00:48

it is sad that devs are still self-censoring their games in order to appease that myth. it is we the gamers who lose out because of that.

You know Navaros you seem a whole lot more liberal when you talk about video games. What is your take on modders adding skins to scenes? Is it morally wrong, or okay in the right age group, or just a bunch of Leisure Suit Larry fun?

BTW would you live in a theocracy that banned video games?

Efrem

08-01-2005, 10:44

There is nothing liberal about being against cencorship.

Actually its normally the opposite. Hilary is leading the charge remember.

Alrowan

08-01-2005, 15:55

ah well, all you yanks got it good, here in Aus they have actually pulled the game from sale, as of whenever they announced, its now a crime to sell this game, advertise it etc in Aus, gotta love how messed up we are, aparently killing people isnt so bad, but when your doing things that nature intended its all wrong, and we have to stop it:-/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4728261.stm

hey wait a minute, ive partaken in sexual acts, and yet i havent killed people??? does this make me a moral outcast?

*hears Hilary saying "yes"

dammit!!! i knew i should have just shot 50 people instead, at least thats acceptable :(