View Full Version : Death and Heaven
Colovion
07-23-2005, 01:43
Death is frightening because there is no way someone can die and them come back and tell everyone what happened so those who are going to die can expect what to occur. It's something which is unexpected, harsh and forces one to view their lives in a realistic aspect that at one point in life you will no longer be who you once were - you will end.
That's where Heaven comes in; the belief that the end is not the end - but merely a passing point into another existance, whether heaven or another life.
There are many beliefs in heaven. Usually it's depicted, in one way or the other, as an eternal resting place for the soul (mind?). It includes all you could want and more; bliss, euphoria.
What are your thoughts on what Heaven is? Or if there is a heaven and why or why not?
Then there is also the belief in reincarnation where there isn't so much any resting place but more of a belief in continual rebirth of the energy in yourself into another entity. So in this case Heaven is to continue Survival and accept that life is a cycle and that after death you have new life and continue to live.
Forgive me if this has been extrapolated upon previously. :bow:
Byzantine Prince
07-23-2005, 01:46
The subject of afterlife and death is a tricky one. On one hand it's frightening that your existence might completely end when you die.
On the other it's very frightening that you may live for ever and ever and ever. It would be extremely tedious especially if you had memory. So in this case no afterlife seems more apealing.
I don't know, either way it's either gonna suck or not. There's no way to be happy about it even if we knew the answer.
Al Khalifah
07-23-2005, 02:06
Death: It's the only place or experience on Earth with no survivors and no one to come back and tell the tale.
Science can answer many questions, but there's one it will never be able to answer - what happens when we die...
Byzantine Prince
07-23-2005, 02:11
The answer is quite obvious if you are not religious. The scientific answer is that when you die your brain and therefore your personality, memories, and intelligence don't exist anymore. Whether your spirit lives on or not is irrelevent because you have lost everything that makes you feel like your self.
Al Khalifah
07-23-2005, 02:14
But the brain remains active for long periods after death. There is simply too much electrical charge within the central nervous system to instantly disipate. Therefore it is perfectly feasible that 'dead' people are still capable of thought.
Big_John
07-23-2005, 02:29
i don't believe in heaven or other forms of life after death because i've never found cause to believe there is anything metaphysical about myself or other humans.
oh Quietus, you can't prove there's no heaven. Sure there might not be an eternal "resting place" but... new thread I assume this is the new thread you speak of.
There's no proof, evidence, support of any 'heaven', that's the proof.
How do you disprove something that doesn't exist in the first place?
Theoretically, if I live forever, I can name an infinite number of things that doesn't exist. All I have to do compound letters ad infinitum.
Wuuk Waah Wuuk.
Waak Wuuh Waak.
Etc etc.
How do you disprove Wuuk Waah Wuuk doesn't exist? Well, there's no proof, evidence or support it does exist!
The same thing goes for 'heaven'.
I've used Leprechauns as an example in a past thread. Do you believe in Leprechauns? How do you disprove Leprechauns?
As for an eternal resting place, your form just breaks apart. All you are is matter and energy, same as everything around you.
You use the same molecules as everyone and everything. All you preserve is your form. You are not the same as the person the day you were born or conceived. Your body continually replaces molecules with foods you eat.
All you keep is the form which was directed essentially by your dna. Life is just a balance between breaking and building.
Your body will break apart, it's the law of physics, it's called Entropy. Your body will try to reverse this process and keep your form using energy and materials from food. (Energy essentially from the Sun).
However, no matter how efficient your body is, Entropy wins eventually and you die. How do organisms combat this? We evolved to reproduce.
Currently, we've evolved enough to extend average life expectancy to around 80 years.
Don Corleone
07-23-2005, 02:41
I believe in heaven, but I dont' think it's a golfer's paradise where beer is free, you get to play Augusta every day and you get a hooter's girl for a caddy, much as I'd like it to be that way.
I envision heaven as a return of the individual to the collective. Think of a drop of water finding it's way through ground water runoff, a stream, a river, a bay and finally back out to the ocean... .you cease to matter as an individual but you become something much larger then you envisioned.
I also believe in Hell. I think our actions here render us more or less ready to re-collect. I don't think of Hell as a lake of fire and flame whips. I more see it as looking through a window at a party of all your best friends and family. Because of your own spite, you refused the invitiation, and now you cannot get in. To me, Hell is being alone without hope of ever being in communion with your fellow man again.
Kagemusha
07-23-2005, 03:30
I believe in fate.We have an saying in my country that when someone dies.He or She came back to the light.I personally think that death is the end as we know it.but is not the ultimate end.We arejust so sefcented that we dot see it,
Don you sound like a Hindu Jew, if there's such a thing.
My take: We die, deal with it, your consience may or may nor carry over to some new existance, the key is that right now you are alive and have feelings, thoughts and emotions. Fullfil them. Heavan is like after Thanksgiving (or the appropriate feast day in your country), after you full, content, a bit sleepy, surrounded by friends and family. Hell is being on your deathbed and saying 'if only'
Samurai Waki
07-23-2005, 07:35
I personally don't know (HI FROM HAVANA...CAPITAL OF THE COMMUNIST WEST!) *ahem* anyway... I don't know about death, I don't dwell on it, and I am not afraid of it... certainly I don't invite it, but I accept it. Many of you have interesting viewpoints... wether they are true or not really doesn't matter. My Personal Belief: Earth is essentially heaven and hell; Life is our crucible, and when we die we become a collective, we share our stories, give advice... see where we went wrong, basically a long time of reflection... certainly whatever happens after that I am not sure. But it would make me happy to have a long discussion with o' lets say Hitler or Richard the Lionheart, he can tell me his stories, what he felt, what he did in his life that nobody knows about, and because this is essentially the great gathering grounds of spirits, however, because we do not "exist" anymore, by gones are by gones... in death, we do not care about the physical realm anymore.
King of Atlantis
07-23-2005, 08:11
I've used Leprechauns as an example in a past thread. Do you believe in Leprechauns? How do you disprove Leprechauns?
Well, to disprove leprechauns you would have to prove they cant be alive. You might ask yourself a few questions.
-For instance you might say where are they? They have to be somewhere but, where?
-How did they come into being? Have they just been here since the beginning unlike the rest of creation?
-Where are their effects? Why can't we see what they have done.
You want to apply these questions to religion, but religion answers these pretty well.
-Where is God? he is metaphysical therefore you obviously couldnt just see him.
-How did he come into being? This is a hard question, but they same can be said about the universe. Even the big bang theory can explain the first spark.
-Effects? Well considering God has obviously given us free will his effects are hare to see.
Therefore you cant just outright ask wheres the proof cause there are anwsers to where the proof is though it still doesnt help you to find it.
I'll ask you this. When you look at a building do you assume it was built by a builder. Surely the building is proof that there had to be a builder. The same can be said of creation.
Colovion
07-23-2005, 19:21
There's no proof, evidence, support of any 'heaven', that's the proof.
I don't live to structure my life around proof entire. My mind accepts things more readily which have proof attached to them but I'm not going to disregard something which has no concrete proof simply because of the lack of it. Proof is simply the known evidence provided in a logical fashion - simply because there isn't evidence to support a claim doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I enjoy believing that there are things that exist which are unable to be proven because I'm open to new ideas and realities which I haven't explored yet. At one time you would be called a mad-man for assuming that there was an entire continent seperating Europe and Asia entire (North America) because there was no proof of such a claim. Your argument shows that man is a constant Doubting Thomas; needing to view it and see it tangibly to really believe in it. My mind is simply not as rigidly empirical as yours. :bow:
Well, to disprove leprechauns you would have to prove they cant be alive. You might ask yourself a few questions.
-For instance you might say where are they? They have to be somewhere but, where?
-How did they come into being? Have they just been here since the beginning unlike the rest of creation?
-Where are their effects? Why can't we see what they have done. Ok, so do you believe in leprechauns or not? If not, then where's your proof? ~:)
You want to apply these questions to religion, but religion answers these pretty well.
-Where is God? he is metaphysical therefore you obviously couldnt just see him. But the entire universe is physical. It follows the laws of physics. There's no laws of metaphysics. How does a purportedly metaphysical 'god' communicate with billions of believers who are physical....?
If a 'god' wants to move a physical ball. He needs to use physical means or force. The same way with you, because you are physical.
Lastly, define metaphysics as best as you can.
-How did he come into being? This is a hard question, but they same can be said about the universe. Even the big bang theory can explain the first spark. See, right there you assumed it is a 'god'. AND you called god, "he". So god has a sex now, or is it that humans patterned the image of god from himself....? That tells me a lot!! ~:)
-Effects? Well considering God has obviously given us free will his effects are hare to see. ~:confused: If you remove your brain, you won't have 'free will' at all. Again, this an assumption of a 'god'.
What's your take on Evolution? Is it random? (Yes, it is random). You can't plan something random. That's like saying, Lottery numbers are planned.
You saying "god given us", meant he planned us all along. There's no plan at all.
Therefore you cant just outright ask wheres the proof cause there are anwsers to where the proof is though it still doesnt help you to find it. Well, where did you find the answers if you have no proof? ~;)
I'll ask you this. When you look at a building do you assume it was built by a builder. Surely the building is proof that there had to be a builder. The same can be said of creation. Where did the 'builder' come from? Another builder? Where did that another builder come from?
If god is omnipotent, then god's builder must be more omnipotent? So on and so forth?
At one time you would be called a mad-man for assuming that there was an entire continent seperating Europe and Asia entire (North America) because there was no proof of such a claim. Your argument shows that man is a constant Doubting Thomas; needing to view it and see it tangibly to really believe in it. My mind is simply not as rigidly empirical as yours. :bow:
That's a physical world, when it comes to god, people use the 'metaphysical' word and world. ~:cool:
King of Atlantis
07-24-2005, 00:05
Ok, so do you believe in leprechauns or not? If not, then where's your proof? ~:)
No beacause.
-there is no evidence of their habitat
-no evelution link to them
-they have left no mark
But the entire universe is physical. It follows the laws of physics. There's no laws of metaphysics. How does a purportedly metaphysical 'god' communicate with billions of believers who are physical....?
The entire physical world is physical.
If a 'god' wants to move a physical ball. He needs to use physical means or force. The same way with you, because you are physical.
God is in everything, thus he could move part of himself easy.
Lastly, define metaphysics as best as you can.
i admit im probably not the best source of metaphysics
See, right there you assumed it is a 'god'. AND you called god, "he". So god has a sex now, or is it that humans patterned the image of god from himself....? That tells me a lot!! ~:)
Im christian so i am going to call god God. That is what i believe in. As for calling God he. In english male is the nuetral gender. We are mankind, if the was a group of guys and girls i could say hey guys. God doesnt have gendar, but it doesnt feel right to call god it, therefore "he" works best.
~:confused: If you remove your brain, you won't have 'free will' at all. Again, this an assumption of a 'god'.
I dont see your logic. If i removed m brain i would die. That doesnt change the fact that God lets us make our own desecions, free will.
What's your take on Evolution? Is it random? (Yes, it is random). You can't plan something random. That's like saying, Lottery numbers are planned.
Lets assume God is real here, dont you think the creater of the universe could set up evolution as he pleased
You saying "god given us", meant he planned us all along. There's no plan at all.
Well, where did you find the answers if you have no proof? ~;)
I didnt come up with any answers, i just gave you a list of reason why you cant find proof/un-proof.
Where did the 'builder' come from? Another builder? Where did that another builder come from?
If god is omnipotent, then god's builder must be more omnipotent? So on and so forth?
Your best defense is how was god created. I could reflect this back at you and say how was the universe created out of nothing. There is no answer how something came out of nothing.
I do not believe there is a heaven. I believe it is a conception of man. When we die, we simple cease living, thus cease to exist. Just as before we were born, we didnt exist, its the same thing when we die.
No beacause.
-there is no evidence of their habitat No physical proof then.
-no evelution link to them. As a believer in the metaphysical, you didn't factor in metaphysical origin. You, friend, are biased against Leprechauns ~;)
-they have left no mark No physical proof again.
These arguments sound very familiar....
The entire physical world is physical. Yes. Then, how do metaphysical beings make contact with physical beings like us?
God is in everything, thus he could move part of himself easy. Then god is physical and we should be able to see him. According to you we can't.
i admit im probably not the best source of metaphysics No problem. ~:cool:
Im christian so i am going to call god God. That is what i believe in. As for calling God he. In english male is the nuetral gender. We are mankind, if the was a group of guys and girls i could say hey guys. God doesnt have gendar, but it doesnt feel right to call god it, therefore "he" works best. I'd still say that expression is an artifact of man patterning god to himself ~:).
I dont see your logic. If i removed m brain i would die. That doesnt change the fact that God lets us make our own desecions, free will. Breathing is free will? Eating is free will? Do you have a choice in terms of breathing and eating among many other things?
You just assume it is god, but evidence suggests it is not. Because Evolution is random. Now, if it is not random, I'd see an intention/design (from a higher being).
I'll type randomly:
hiuweoiesdffasdfoereuglklnvaelwe (what am I trying to say?).
I'll type with intent/design:
Bob Marley will always be the best musical force ever on Earth. (what am I trying to say?)
The grammar, punctuation, capitalization and spelling are all correct on the latter. That's 'intelligent design'.
Lets assume God is real here, dont you think the creater of the universe could set up evolution as he pleased Evolution is random, how do you set that up?
Also, if god is real and omnipotent, I'd argue
- Spontaneous Creation not billions of years of random evolution.
- How many planets are there in our solar system? How many 'lifeforms'? Do each planets harbor the same condition as the other?
Your best defense is how was god created. I could reflect this back at you and say how was the universe created out of nothing. There is no answer how something came out of nothing. I'd say nobody knows for sure. That's why assumption is an assumption. And god is a huge assumption.
King of Atlantis
07-24-2005, 04:22
No physical proof then.
As a believer in the metaphysical, you didn't factor in metaphysical origin. You, friend, are biased against Leprechauns ~;)
No physical proof again.
These arguments sound very familiar....
The whole concept of leprechans is not metaphysical. If you wanted claim there were metaphysical leprecahns then there is no way i could possibly prove it wrong or right.
Yes. Then, how do metaphysical beings make contact with physical beings like us?
Then god is physical and we should be able to see him. According to you we can't.
God is in everything, thus you do see him. Looking at a tree you are seing god, looking in the air you are seing god, but you want to see some mystic figure which isnt there.
I'd still say that expression is an artifact of man patterning god to himself ~:).
When i imagine god i admit i see an old man with a great beard. That is a picture society has imprinted into my brain and it cant be helped, but that doesnt mean thats what i think God is. I believe God is in everything, being everywhere at once thus what his true image is is unimaginable to me.
Breathing is free will? Eating is free will? Do you have a choice in terms of breathing and eating among many other things?
No but i have a chioce in what i eat for dinner. God gives us that choice.
You just assume it is god, but evidence suggests it is not. Because Evolution is random. Now, if it is not random, I'd see an intention/design (from a higher being).
Lets assume evolution wasnt random, what would you see differnet. Scientific evidence doesnt go against god. Obviousl God created a universe were there is a system to everything. Laws that all things are bound to. Religion doesn't deny this.
I'll type randomly:
Evolution is random, how do you set that up?
If you believed that God was all powerful, the creator of everything, surely he could set it up.
Also, if god is real and omnipotent, I'd argue
- Spontaneous Creation not billions of years of random evolution.
Again God has made a universe of laws and systems, spontaneous creation wouldnt make sense.
- How many planets are there in our solar system? How many 'lifeforms'? Do each planets harbor the same condition as the other?
How many planets, some would argue this, but the standard number is 9. One of them has life at the moment, but Mars might have had life at some point.
I'd say nobody knows for sure. That's why assumption is an assumption. And god is a huge assumption.
I assume there is a creator to the creation
you assume there is none
We both make assumtions.
You seem so driven to find proof that God exist, but what kind of proof would you want to find and further more God why would God give you such evidence, then we would all be faithful, but we wouldn't have any faith.
The whole concept of leprechans is not metaphysical. If you wanted claim there were metaphysical leprecahns then there is no way i could possibly prove it wrong or right. First of all, I don't believe in the metaphysics. Secondly, you believe in metaphysics, but you are excluding metaphysics outright.
I don't believe in Leprechauns because there's no physical proof they exist. Same with god or unicorns.
God is in everything, thus you do see him. Looking at a tree you are seing god, looking in the air you are seing god, but you want to see some mystic figure which isnt there. Where did the text from the Bible come from? The Koran? What's god's language?
When i imagine god i admit i see an old man with a great beard. That is a picture society has imprinted into my brain and it cant be helped, but that doesnt mean thats what i think God is. So God didn't make man in his own likeness?
I believe God is in everything, being everywhere at once thus what his true image is is unimaginable to me. How do you figure god is everything and everywhere?
No but i have a chioce in what i eat for dinner. God gives us that choice. Is wood a choice of dinner? Do you eat wood?
We did not evolve to eat wood. Choice is an illusion because you are limited to eating what you evolve to eat. For example fruit.
We evolved to eat fruits due to our special relationship with plants. We eat the fruit and we disperse the inedible seed. You get the energy from the fruit, the nonmotile plant gets the means to disperse the seed.
There's no choice. Evolution is random. Our relationship with trees and fruit is random.
Lets assume evolution wasnt random, what would you see differnet. Scientific evidence doesnt go against god. Obviousl God created a universe were there is a system to everything. Laws that all things are bound to. Religion doesn't deny this. If it isn't random, there there would be inherent order. And we'd know where evolution is headed.
If you believed that God was all powerful, the creator of everything, surely he could set it up. If god set it up, then evolution wouldn't be random.
Again God has made a universe of laws and systems, spontaneous creation wouldnt make sense. Circular logic there. Also, you seem to be saying our random existence is god's plan.
How many planets, some would argue this, but the standard number is 9. One of them has life at the moment, but Mars might have had life at some point. So one out of 9 is intent? And each planets have different physical conditions. Sounds very random to me.
I assume there is a creator to the creation
you assume there is none
We both make assumtions. There is no proof of god and science does not support it either.
You seem so driven to find proof that God exist, but what kind of proof would you want to find I want physical proof because there is none.
and further more God why would God give you such evidence, then we would all be faithful, but we wouldn't have any faith. You just said 'a tree' is god....
King of Atlantis
07-24-2005, 14:06
I said god is everywhere. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if God made the universe out of nothing it would be a part of him and he would be a part of it. Thus all creation is in his likeness.
Physical proof, give me an example of want you want to find. Imagine that you do bellieve in God/gods. I believe you couldnt thik of any evidence to find.
And we do have freedom to eat what we want. Like right now i could eat a pizza, a hotdog, etc... I could even go eat my dog. Thats free will.
Science isnt at odds with religion as science can never be used to prove or disprove a religion.
A.Saturnus
07-24-2005, 21:10
But the brain remains active for long periods after death. There is simply too much electrical charge within the central nervous system to instantly disipate. Therefore it is perfectly feasible that 'dead' people are still capable of thought.
No, at least not when you define death as zero EEG. There are still some random neurons firing after blood flow ceased, but without oxygen supply, the brain stops working rapidly. There is a myth that beheaded people are still awake for seconds, but that`s because motoric neurons firing can cause seemingly controlled movements. Consciousness and all higher brain functions disappear milliseconds after oxygen supply is gone.
I said god is everywhere. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if God made the universe out of nothing it would be a part of him and he would be a part of it. Thus all creation is in his likeness. You have no basis for this though. How can you be sure the tree is not a leprechaun in disguise?
Physical proof, give me an example of want you want to find. Imagine that you do bellieve in God/gods. I believe you couldnt thik of any evidence to find. That's why you can't differentiate Leprechauns from a god or any other mythic creatures.
And we do have freedom to eat what we want. Like right now i could eat a pizza, a hotdog, etc... I could even go eat my dog. Thats free will. You are only free to eat what you body evolved to digest, that's it. You're not free to eat your toothbrush, your spoon, your shoes or your pillows.
Science isnt at odds with religion as science can never be used to prove or disprove a religion. Your body uses the same physical world to gather physical information as science does. If you or anybody can claim access to a god then science should have the same access. Therein lies the contradiction and discrepancy.
Papewaio
07-25-2005, 04:16
Loss of information ie 'soul' should result in a loss of energy. So human bodies should cool down faster as they lose the soul... no extra heat loss then no soul. :book:
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 05:14
You have no basis for this though. How can you be sure the tree is not a leprechaun in disguise?
My basis is my belief and also logic. If there is a creator of the universe he would be all powerful.
That's why you can't differentiate Leprechauns from a god or any other mythic creatures.
You avoid the question. What proof do you want to see.
You are only free to eat what you body evolved to digest, that's it. You're not free to eat your toothbrush, your spoon, your shoes or your pillows.
actuall i could eat my toothbrush,spoon, shoes, or pillow though it might hurt me a bit. I dont think you realize what free will means.
Your body uses the same physical world to gather physical information as science does. If you or anybody can claim access to a god then science should have the same access. Therein lies the contradiction and discrepancy.
God could give you all the evidnece in the world that he exist, but then we wouldn't believe in him, we would be a mass a faithful while having no true faith.
Heaven does not exist, until I have seen proof
My Death is the end of my life. And I will try to avoid it as long as I live.
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 05:41
Heaven does not exist, until I have seen proof
since you havent seen proof it means it doesnt exist?
since you havent seen proof it means it doesnt exist?
Quite Simply, Yes.
I am not into blindly believing things until they are backed up by independent evidence.
In this case of the the Christian "Heaven" all sources point to the "Bible" as the evidence. This is not independent "evidence". Also, it should be verifiable and corrobrated.
As I said in other threads, I had difficulty in becoming christian, as I had difficulty in believing in "God", hence difficulty in believing in "Heaven".
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 05:55
You cant disprove belief because of disblief!
I am not disproving the belief, that is not my point here. Just that the proof does not exist for me and why.
People are allowed to believe what they will.
I am not into blindly believing things until they are backed up by independent evidence.
That's why it isn't called "belief," but rather "faith." And that's why the step from empiricism to spirituality is called the "leap of faith."
Nobody can argue you into it, nobody can force it on you, and I doubt anyone can explain it. Philosophers who attempt to use formal logic to explain the divine always come off a bit silly.
Materialism is barren ground, and empiricism is its nearest neighbor. Leave yourself open to the unknown, and perhaps the unknowable.
I put my "faith" into things and people I can see and trust. As to the unknown, I am still a researcher, and hope to be for the rest of my life.
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 06:16
On the point of religion you can look into the unkown forever, but you will never find the answer, thus you eventualy need to just have faith.
Big_John
07-25-2005, 06:21
On the point of religion you can look into the unkown forever, but you will never find the answer, thus you eventualy need to just have faith.this could easily be an argument for a person to never buy into "faith" as a belief system. if it is indeed true that one "will never find the answer", that could be an indication that the question being asked is absurd.
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 06:24
this could easily be an argument for a person to never buy into "faith" as a belief system. if it is indeed true that one "will never find the answer", that could be an indication that the question being asked is absurd.
or that the answer is simply impossible to "know". Which seems to make sense. What good would possibly come from God being worshipped by everyone because there was undeniable proof that he existed. Then there would be no faith and thus God's relationsjip to man would seem pointless.
Big_John
07-25-2005, 06:29
or that the answer is simply impossible to "know". Which seems to make sense.why does that make sense to you?
What good would possibly come from God being worshipped by everyone because there was undeniable proof that he existed. Then there would be no faith and thus God's relationsjip to man would seem pointless.you know your parents exist. do you love them? is your relationship with them pointless?
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 06:38
why does that make sense to you?
the second part of my post explained that.
you know your parents exist. do you love them? is your relationship with them pointless?
Yes, but believing in God is one of the most important elements in religion. Knowing would take much away from it.
Big_John
07-25-2005, 06:40
Yes, but believing in God is one of the most important elements in religion. Knowing would take much away from it.if i'm understanding you correctly, this is circular.
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 06:42
explain,
i think that a belief in God is much more powerful than knowing about god.
Big_John
07-25-2005, 06:48
explain
sorry, i should have explained a bit. you are arguing that unfounded belief (i.e. "faith") in god is an important part of religion. you support this claim with the claim that "knowing [about the existence of god] would take much away from [religion]". in other words, you are saying unfounded belief in a thing is important because unfounded belief in a thing is important. that's how i am reading your words, anyway.
i think that a belief in God is much more powerful than knowing about god.why do you think this?
i think that a belief in God is much more powerful than knowing about god.
Concur.
Papewaio
07-25-2005, 07:09
So Moses is less holy because he knew God not the Biblical sense, err yes the Bibilical sense of burning bushes not the Bibilical sense of knowing your wife, err I mean knowing your own wife not by knowing yours err bugger.
Yes sometimes it is better to be quiet and believe other times it is better to know and have fun.
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 08:49
john, im saying that Faith in God is an important element in a reltionship with God. Taking away that Faith is taking away that important part of the relationship.
Papewaio, even moses needed faith. A lot of people would see a burning bush and think they were crazy.
why do you think this?
Cause it requires me to give somthing for God. For example, by giving God our faith he returns us with salvation.
I know what i mean in my head, but explaining religious beliefs is hard. One of Faith can understand, but explaining faith in God to someone who doesnt believe in God is very hard...
King Of Atlantis,
I think for the sake of your discussion you may want to consider whether you see faith and belief as the same or different.
If faith is the same as belief, why do the two words exist?
Is faith involved in making any truth claims? If so, and faith is of the same stripe as belief, how is that possible given belief is subjective?
If faith is different than mere belief, what is the essential nature of that difference?
Papewaio
07-25-2005, 09:33
Would this be a valid example.
Satanists (of the old school) believe in God but have faith in Satan?
Big_John
07-25-2005, 09:38
john, im saying that Faith in God is an important element in a reltionship with God. Taking away that Faith is taking away that important part of the relationship.ok. but you should understand that this can, with good reason, be seen as a weakness of the "faithful" position. by removing the condition of knowledge from belief in a thing, you are allowing for the belief in anything. moreover, you are precluding the possibility of a meaningful discussion about the existence of god (or other divine things like heaven).
the original proposition i responded to was this:
On the point of religion you can look into the unkown forever, but you will never find the answer, thus you eventualy need to just have faith.this was your response to kiwitt's statement that he would believe in those things which were knowable (if i understand him correctly). thus, your position is that blind faith is it's own virtue (at least in relation to god). that's fine, but it's a hard sell. to use quietus' example, blind faith being it's own virtue would imbue any fanciful entity (like leprechauns) with justified belief.
Cause it requires me to give somthing for God. For example, by giving God our faith he returns us with salvation.why? so far you've stated that you believe in the existence of an unknowable because the belief itself is somehow imbued with intrinsic justification and you are also saying that this blind belief is the very currency of the unknowable entity. paradoxically, this is itself a knowledge claim.
I know what i mean in my head, but explaining religious beliefs is hard. One of Faith can understand, but explaining faith in God to someone who doesnt believe in God is very hard...indeed. ~:grouphug:
Franconicus
07-25-2005, 09:41
The subject of afterlife and death is a tricky one. On one hand it's frightening that your existence might completely end when you die.
I do not think so. If your existence ends completely you would not know it.
Is there an everlasting cycle of life? This is hard to believe. Where were all those souls (or whatever) before there was life? What would happen if we nuke the world? Number of souls is not a physical constant.
So heaven or hell? Or back to the big soul pool? Hard to say. I believe that their is something out there in a metaphysical way, but does it care about our deads?
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 10:01
pindar,
yes your right i'll try explaning myself better..
Belief is something from your mind
Faith comes from the heart/soul.
I dont see my faith in God as blind, cause i do feel his presence/love in my heart. Lets just say faith is blind to the mind cause you can't prove disprove faith with mental/logical arguments.
In a reltionship i would imagine God would prefer a spiritual relationship more than a Logical one. As a spiritual frienship is very strong.
Look at the adam and eve story. Adam and Eve knew God and lived in the type of situation that many that dont have faith in god think God would put us in. A place were he "showed" himself and gave them all they needed. In the end adam and Eve loved God as one would love a parent, but the were niave. They took him for granted and probably had the faith of a five year old. They always new God was there thus they never had to think about his existance, thus they never questioned their faith(as all faithful do), thus they never really understood their Faith. In a world were god just provides for us and makes his presence "known", then all that is important in a reltationship with God is taken for granted..
A.Saturnus
07-25-2005, 16:04
If physicalism is right, then we`re nothing than the function of our brain. If the brain ceases to work, we disappear. If physicalism is wrong, I should reconsider my career choice.
Big_John
07-25-2005, 16:46
Faith comes from the heart/soul.
I dont see my faith in God as blind, cause i do feel his presence/love in my heart. Lets just say faith is blind to the mind cause you can't prove disprove faith with mental/logical arguments.ok, so one can know about god in some fashion. that is, if one assumes the existence of souls (and assumes that souls can deliver information to the mind).
In a reltionship i would imagine God would prefer a spiritual relationship more than a Logical one. As a spiritual frienship is very strong.
Look at the adam and eve story. Adam and Eve knew God and lived in the type of situation that many that dont have faith in god think God would put us in. A place were he "showed" himself and gave them all they needed. In the end adam and Eve loved God as one would love a parent, but the were niave. They took him for granted and probably had the faith of a five year old. They always new God was there thus they never had to think about his existance, thus they never questioned their faith(as all faithful do), thus they never really understood their Faith. In a world were god just provides for us and makes his presence "known", then all that is important in a reltationship with God is taken for granted..that's a nice story and all, but of course it is entirely meaningless to anyone that doesn't already have this elusive "faith".
Kagemusha
07-25-2005, 16:51
I love these Faith vs. Reason debates.The thing with fate is in my mind,that i dont have to reason my faith to anyone.Anyone can believe in anything that they want because faith has nothing to do with reason. :bow:
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 19:41
ok, so one can know about god in some fashion. that is, if one assumes the existence of souls (and assumes that souls can deliver information to the mind).
I assume their is a soul and you assume their isnt. There really is no proof either way. Having faith and not having are two very big assumtions. I choose to have Faith in God. I don't plan on converting you at an internet message board, but both sides have to assume things. People that don't believe in God always think their side is more logical, but when it comes down to it it is just an assumtion.
that's a nice story and all, but of course it is entirely meaningless to anyone that doesn't already have this elusive "faith".
yes, but you wanted to know why faith in God is more important than knowledge. I posted that to explain it.
Big_John
07-25-2005, 20:24
I assume their is a soul and you assume their isnt. There really is no proof either way. Having faith and not having are two very big assumtions.this is incorrect. there is only one assumption being made, that god exists. i am not assuming god does not exist, i am holding a neutral position, a position of ignorance. the onus is on you to justify your belief. also, are you really saying that your belief in god is simply an assumption? you have no experiential reason to believe in god? earlier, you claimed that you did (i.e. you 'felt his love').
I choose to have Faith in God. I don't plan on converting you at an internet message board, but both sides have to assume things. People that don't believe in God always think their side is more logical, but when it comes down to it it is just an assumtion.conversion is irrelevant; i'm asking because i want to understand your point of view. it is fair to say that a reasonable (logical?) approach in all things is to assume ignorance. thus, the positive claim (gods/heaven/unicorns/etc. exist) is the one that demands justification, not the neutral position.
yes, but you wanted to know why faith in God is more important than knowledge. I posted that to explain it.so there is not an independent reason why faith in god is more important than knowledge of god?
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 20:35
this is incorrect. there is only one assumption being made, that god exists. i am not assuming god does not exist, i am holding a neutral position, a position of ignorance. the onus is on you to justify your belief.
maybe you didnt make an assumption, but saying there is no God is an assumption. I would rather make an "assumption" than just be ingnorant.
also, are you really saying that your belief in god is simply an assumption? you have no experiential reason to believe in god? earlier, you claimed that you did (i.e. you 'felt his love').
assumption may not be the right word, but i dont have "proof" that God exist.
conversion is irrelevant; i'm asking because i want to understand your point of view. it is fair to say that a reasonable (logical?) approach in all things is to assume ignorance.
why is ignorance a logical thing. If i was ingorant of the law would i be logical.
thus, the positive claim (gods/heaven/unicorns/etc. exist) is the one that demands justification, not the neutral position.
Okay my justification. There either is a God or not, there isnt really a neutral. When investingating witch is true one will find no proof either way. Thus youy have to make an "assumption". I looked into both ways and the way of Faith seemed the better choice. Faith in God just feels so right, like im actually doing something right in this world. One of the greatest feelings I have ever felt was asking for forgiveness. God's love can be felt though one could just say im imagining things, which is why it certainly couldn't be considered "proof".
so there is not an independent reason why faith in god is more important than knowledge of god?
one big reason, probably not, but my little explained why faith is more important.
Big_John
07-25-2005, 20:48
maybe you didnt make an assumption, but saying there is no God is an assumption. I would rather make an "assumption" than just be ingnorant.
[...]
why is ignorance a logical thing. If i was ingorant of the law would i be logical.ignorance is a stance of inquisitiveness. ideally, it allows the mind to be open to all possibilities. total ignorance is the stance descartes used to justify a whole system of knowledge (which included the knowledge of god, btw) in his meditations. to continue in ignorance in the face of information is foolish, and has nothing to do with what we are talking about. i'm not saying that one should claim ignorance even if they have reason to believe something. however, can maintaining a skeptical outlook (i.e. the ability to discard those things which you currently believe) be seen as illogical?
Okay my justification. There either is a God or not, there isnt really a neutral. When investingating witch is true one will find no proof either way. Thus youy have to make an "assumption".why do you have to make an assumption? what compelled you to do that?
I looked into both ways and the way of Faith seemed the better choice. Faith in God just feels so right, like im actually doing something right in this world. One of the greatest feelings I have ever felt was asking for forgiveness. God's love can be felt though one could just say im imagining things, which is why it certainly couldn't be considered "proof".so you believe in god because it makes you feel good?
one big reason, probably not, but my little explained why faith is more important.i don't understand. are you saying that there is an independent reason to believe in god? if so, what is it?
so there is not an independent reason why faith in god is more important than knowledge of god?
Hello,
If I may, I think this is a sectarian question. Different faiths will have different responses. I think the general Christian reply would be: faith is more important than simple knowledge because knowledge in and of itself is not transformative. The Adversary and his fallen hosts "know" the Lord, but they remain damned. Faith is not simply epistemic (a question of knowing) but moral. It is therefore seen as the operative ingredient that makes the new man, as it were.
Big_John
07-25-2005, 21:02
Hello,
If I may, I think this is a sectarian question. Different faiths will have different responses. I think the general Christian reply would be: faith is more important than simple knowledge because knowledge in and of itself is not transformative. The Adversary and his fallen hosts "know" the Lord, but they remain damned. Faith is not simply epistemic (a question of knowing) but moral. It is therefore seen as the operative ingredient that makes the new man, as it were.
stay out of this pindar! ~D
seriously though, that's a fine response. so for a non-believer, the efficacy of faith can be demonstrated in it's ability to "transform" a man? of course earthly things, like tragedy or hypnosis, can transform men also. but does faith operate in a different fashion than these mundane processes? in your description, faith would not seem to depend on the existence of a target; one could be faithful weather god exists or not, yes? but does faith assumes the existence of a metaphysical entity to act upon (i.e. the soul)?
hello, btw. :bow:
edit: also, you say faith is not simply epistemic. can it have an epistemic content?
stay out of this pindar! ~D
Sorry, I was just passing by. :bow:
seriously though, that's a fine response. so for a non-believer, the efficacy of faith can be demonstrated in it's ability to "transform" a man? of course earthly things, like tragedy or hypnosis, can transform men also. but does faith operate in a different fashion than these mundane processes? in your description, faith would not seem to depend on the existence of a target; one could be faithful weather god exists or not, yes? but does faith assumes the existence of a metaphysical entity to act upon (i.e. the soul)?
I'm limiting my response to the basic Christian Teaching as I understand it.
Faith's transformative power also provides meaning. A positioning through which one can understand evil. Tragedy, as the label implies, can give no answer.
Faith as a moral category is relational. There is a necessary Other that acts as the impelling force and locus for the "ought" that illustrates the moral and motivates action. The ultimate Other and thereby arbiter of the moral is the Creator to which the creature is beholden. A morality void of Deity collapses into a base egoism.
.
edit: also, you say faith is not simply epistemic. can it have an epistemic content?
Based on the King of Atlantis's response as well as the typical devotee, one would have to answer yes. The King's reply referred to love. The standard form seems to be intuitive. When the Divine is revealed, one knows and recognizes it as such.
I will now vanish back into the shadows :hide:
Big_John
07-25-2005, 22:09
A morality void of Deity collapses into a base egoism.egoism? is that like believing in god because it feels correct? or acting 'moral' because you feel "His" love? ~;)
I will now vanish back into the shadows :hide:!!
this is the backroom, everywhere is shadow. :curtain:
egoism? is that like believing in god because it feels correct? or acting 'moral' because you feel "His" love? ~;)
No, egoism means a priority of the ego over and above others. In this case, egoism is the attempt by the subject to determine the good based on self-interest.
this is the backroom, everywhere is shadow. :curtain:
:curtain:
(I don't want to highjack your discussion)
Big_John
07-25-2005, 22:39
No, egoism means a priority of the ego over and above others. In this case, egoism is the attempt by the subject to determine the good based on self-interest.i was just making an unfunny joke.
as i understand it, an important part of your personal belief system is your revelation(s). i can buy that as a possibility, and given such, i would consider a belief in god to be a valid conclusion. at first it seemed that KoA was claiming that there was no way to gain any information about god at all, but faith was still somehow valid. but now, the "love" he speaks of doesn't seem that distinct from revelation.
(I don't want to highjack your discussion)no worries, i wouldn't consider your input a hijack.
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 22:46
Big John when i was saying there is no eveidence for faith i meant for a non-believer. God's love can be seen and felt by the commomon faithful and even by the not faithful though they probably dont reconize it, but I hardly doubt that you would see this as "proof". It is proof to me cause I have felt it many times, but it doesn't help to prove others. Most people convert to religion cause the feel this love and they search for it's origins. This search usually end the person to their religious chioce.
Pindar, your much better at this debating thing than me, but maybe one day I will learn. ~:)
... kiwitt's statement that he would believe in those things which were knowable (if i understand him correctly)....
You are correct.
As to the discussion about Faith and ignorance. As I said before, I am a researcher and will be for the rest of my life. As I believe, I am always learning. However, everything I have learned, skills, facts, love, etc are based on real experience and study. So I am ignorant of "facts", and skills I do not know.
I have tried to study the "Christian" way of belief/faith etc. , as I know a lot of people believe in "God". I tried to work out what they could see. All I noticed was that it was something you have to "feel" to believe and have faith. The "Bible" stories were to help generate this feeling.
As to the "Bible" I have since learned that the first books were written "Moses" about events some 2,000 or more years before his time. As to the "New Testament", these sections were compiled many years after "Jesus" was supposed to have died. They also excluded sections. See here (http://www.comparative-religion.com/christianity/apocrypha/) for a full listing of the "New Testament" works.
If the "Bible" is not complete in it's latest works, how complete is it's early works. I do not know.
For this reason I can not trust the "Bible" as it has had man's hand in determining what is suitable for inclusion and exclusion. It smacks a bit like what we now call "Spin" to sell something.
Therefore I seek independent evidence, before I will believe that something is true.
King of Atlantis
07-25-2005, 23:37
As to the "New Testament", these sections were compiled many years after "Jesus" was supposed to have died.
The gospel is written by people two of the diciples who were with Jesus throughtout his ministry and the other two were also from this time, thought they all wrote their books much later after Jesus died.
They also excluded sections. See here (http://www.comparative-religion.com/christianity/apocrypha/) for a full listing of the "New Testament" works.
They excluded sections that were written much(like 200 years) later after jesus's death. Also, the had to unify christian belief. They had to choose the books that gave the most accurate account of Jesus's life and thats what they did.
If the "Bible" is not complete in it's latest works, how complete is it's early works. I do not know.
They have found many other jewish books, like the book of enoch, but non of these books really have much of a purpose, they usually just try to add in details of stories that aren't really considered historic fact.
For this reason I can not trust the "Bible" as it has had man's hand in determining what is suitable for inclusion and exclusion. It smacks a bit like what we now call "Spin" to sell something.
Some stuff has been left out, but is just because the weren't relevant. Someone had to go through the bible and decide which books to include and the early church did that. They had to or th bible wouldnt make any sense.
Therefore I seek independent evidence, before I will believe that something is true.
Your right the Bible is not evidence that it's stories are true, but most religious people are more moved by God's love that to us is evident in the world, though to the skeptic it doesnt exist.
as i understand it, an important part of your personal belief system is your revelation(s).
correct.
Pindar, your much better at this debating thing than me, but maybe one day I will learn. ~:)
I just use more semicolons. ~:)
...thought they all wrote their books much later after Jesus died.My recollection of 20-30 years are hazy now, what would they be like when I am approaching 60 (and back then that was a lot older than it is today)
Also, the had to unify christian belief. Why include the Old Testament then ?
... details of stories that aren't really considered historic fact. My point as to that the bible is not based on fact
Some stuff has been left out, but is just because the weren't relevant. Ah ! The SPIN again. why do they determine what is relevant. They only included what fitted the "message" they were trying to "sell".
... moved by God's love that to us is evident in the world,... I have seen so many people so-called "moved" by "God" doing horrendous things, while continuing to say they believe in "God.
King of Atlantis
07-26-2005, 00:21
My recollection of 20-30 years are hazy now, what would they be like when I am approaching 60 (and back then that was a lot older than it is today)
yeah, but think about something as big as the son of God. Im sure you would remember. Also they had been teaching this stuff for a long time. They just realized later that they should write it down.
Why include the Old Testament then ?
The old testemant is part of christian belief. Though some people did want to cut it. One guy only wanted the gospels and the letters of paul, but the old testament was decided to be very much part of christian doctrine.
My point as to that the bible is not based on fact
Your right. Many of its stories are more of teaching a lesson or adding insight into God.
Ah ! The SPIN again. why do they determine what is relevant. They only included what fitted the "message" they were trying to "sell".
No, for example the book of enoch doesnt have much importance it only adds unnesary details about the creation story, making it irrelevant. Most gospels that were left out were written hundreds of years after jesus dies, obviously they were left out.
I have seen so many people so-called "moved" by "God" doing horrendous things, while continuing to say they believe in "God
and those people are fanatics that just use religion as an excuse, when really they are crazy anyways. These people pail in comparion to all the great missiion work that is done by Christians and other religious groups.
Before this thread changes to much about semantics, let's get to the point of this thread. Heaven.
As I do not believe in "God", I can not believe in Heaven. Therefore when I die, that is the end of life for me. I intend to make my life as happy for me and people I care about.
I suggest we agree to disagree, and I will respect other's beliefs
King of Atlantis
07-26-2005, 00:47
I respect you view, but i dont see why we should end the debate, it was on topic, or at least semi-on topic.
I respect your view, but i dont see why we should end the debate, it was on topic, or at least semi-on topic.We could debate for ages. Remember we have different life experiences, to which we have formed our beliefs. I don't think we want to debate all "our" personal experiences to which we base them on.
As you have said, your's is based on the "Love" you feel from "God" in your life. I respect that, and we should have more people like you. Mine is based on an early "parental" abandonment, due to multiple divorces etc, where I was left to form my own conclusions.
And as I have said early, I have tried to learn what the "Bible" is all about. But my studies ceased after I could not get past "Step 1 - Belief in God". I do however, respect "Christians", and my wife and I would make good Christians (Based on the way we live and respect others), if we could only get past the first step.
King of Atlantis
07-26-2005, 01:16
okay ~:cheers:
Man is what he believes.
-Anton Chekhov
King of Atlantis
07-26-2005, 01:43
wise words. :bow:
Sasaki Kojiro
07-26-2005, 01:49
When you die you decompose, that's all.
This does not worry me because I am immortal.
King of Atlantis,
Let's say, a muslim friend approaches you. He said:
"King of Atlantis, I experienced god last night. I felt "him" in my heart and soul" He said, "I must blow myself up in London to defend the faith against the infidel Britons. I'm doing this not for self interest but for god and fellow believers because that's what god told me and I felt it."
What do you say to this?
Also:
- Do dogs go to heaven?
- Do dogs go to hell?
- Do dogs pray?
- What about the other animals? Do they sin?
- Do dogs have faith? Or soul?
actuall i could eat my toothbrush,spoon, shoes, or pillow though it might hurt me a bit. I dont think you realize what free will means. How many times have you eaten those before. I mean, when you eat dinner, do you eat the fork and the spoon as well?
How many times have you eaten in a fast food restaurant and eaten the hamburger wrappings and soda container and straw? How about the other customers?
And if you do eat toothbrush, spoon, shoes or pillow, that's no longer free will isn't it, because you are forcing yourself to eat them.
Don Corleone
07-26-2005, 04:05
Must every discussion of personal belief digress into an esoteric debate of epistemology? Sometimes, it's refreshing to hear what people think, even if they believe we're worm food. Maybe if it isn't a 'force others to believe as you do' thread, we can lay off of that? ~:grouphug:
Learnt a new word today; "Epistemology"
The branch of philosophy that studies the nature of knowledge, its presuppositions and foundations, and its extent and validity.Thanks Don.
Man is what he believes.
-Anton Chekhov
Shame that is complete rubbish, isn't it.
Man is nothing else but what he purposes, he exists only in so far as he realises himself, he is therefore nothing else but the sum of his actions, nothing else but what his life is.
Jean Paul Sartre.
Big_John
07-26-2005, 04:27
Must every discussion of personal belief digress into an esoteric debate of epistemology? Sometimes, it's refreshing to hear what people think, even if they believe we're worm food. Maybe if it isn't a 'force others to believe as you do' thread, we can lay off of that? ~:grouphug:who's forcing anyone to do anything? some of us simply find epistemological discussions interesting. :book:
Don Corleone
07-26-2005, 04:28
Learnt a new word today; "Epistemology"Thanks Don.
You're welcome ~D. I wasn't trying to be 'braniac', it's one of the few 5 point vocab words I remember. I was making a point about how inaccessable that word, and the turn of the conversation, is to the average tavern visitor.
I wasn't trying to be 'braniac', I can see that "Brainiac" ~D ~:cheers:
Don Corleone
07-26-2005, 04:43
Merci'. ~:bow: Holy cow!!! Fat Louis was right, the French are first on the list to take over the world!!!
Me French ? "Sacre Bleh" :charge: :duel:
King of Atlantis
07-26-2005, 05:58
Let's say, a muslim friend approaches you. He said:
"King of Atlantis, I experienced god last night. I felt "him" in my heart and soul" He said, "I must blow myself up in London to defend the faith against the infidel Britons. I'm doing this not for self interest but for god and fellow believers because that's what god told me and I felt it."
What do you say to this?
Well i dont have any friends that are extremist, but i would say he was missing some marbles.
Also:
- Do dogs go to heaven?
- Do dogs go to hell?
I dont think so, but i dont really worry about who is or isnt going to hell. Im not God and im not the one to judge. I simply follow my spiritual path, and if I converted somebody that would be cool, but im not here to shove religion down anybody's throats.
- Do dogs pray?
no, is this a logical question. Dogs dont even know that the have a name, and arent advanced nearly enough to have some kind of though like that.
- What about the other animals? Do they sin?
animals, sin? no, they only follow their instincts to survive. What makes humans(and mabye some other primates) different is we can tell the differnece between right and wrong.
- Do dogs have faith? Or soul?
Dont have faith as they dont have enought mental power to follow a faith journey. Im not sure if the have a soul or not.
How many times have you eaten those before. I mean, when you eat dinner, do you eat the fork and the spoon as well?
How many times have you eaten in a fast food restaurant and eaten the hamburger wrappings and soda container and straw? How about the other customers?
Not very often, but i still could. That is free will. Making any descision represents free will.
And if you do eat toothbrush, spoon, shoes or pillow, that's no longer free will isn't it, because you are forcing yourself to eat them.
So, i choose to eat what i wanted. That is free will. I dont see your logic here at all.
Man is what he believes.
-Anton Chekhov
Shame that is complete rubbish, isn't it.
"Man is nothing else but what he purposes..."
-Jean Paul Sartre.
JAG,
You shouldn't quote Sartre as authoritative to someone who has read him, understood him and therefore knows the source of his folly.
It also isn't a very sartrean thing to do.
bmolsson
07-26-2005, 09:37
Why would there be a heaven or a hell ? What function would it fill ? Isn't the dream on heaven and the fear of hell just another way to get you to do your home work and not steal in the local supermarket ?
Byzantine Prince
07-26-2005, 09:39
Heaven is based on people's faith. Even the pagans have some sort of afterlife, because afterlife is the basis of faith.
Faith: not wanting to know what is true. - Friedrich Nietzsche
bmolsson
07-26-2005, 10:08
Heaven is based on people's faith. Even the pagans have some sort of afterlife, because afterlife is the basis of faith.
So you can't have any faith if you don't believe in an afterlife ??
King of Atlantis
07-26-2005, 10:11
Isn't the dream on heaven and the fear of hell just another way to get you to do your home work and not steal in the local supermarket ?
actually Christians believe in a thing for forgivness. You should strive to be good, but you woudlnt go to hell for stealing.
Byzantine Prince
07-26-2005, 10:13
People have faith because they expect something in return. They expect a meaning, and an afterlife, but they will never get those things. Never.
As Nietzsche asid, faith is not accepting the truth, and the truth is that there is no meaning, that there is no God, that there is no afterlife.
King of Atlantis
07-26-2005, 10:15
As Nietzsche asid, faith is not accepting the truth, and the truth is that there is no meaning, that there is no God, that there is no afterlife.
you claim your view as fact. Just cause you dont believe in God does not mean that it's fact.
Byzantine Prince
07-26-2005, 10:36
It is a fact. People have always been scared to admit it, because they lose their security in the state of mind. It's such a simple truth, that god doesn't exist, yet it seems so inexplicably hard for people to grasp.
Religion is an opiant.
"The two largest opiants in Europe - alcohol and Christianity" - Nietzsche
As Nietzsche asid, faith is not accepting the truth, and the truth is that there is no meaning, that there is no God, that there is no afterlife.
Faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see.
A.Saturnus
07-26-2005, 15:03
"Denn du bist was du isst"
- Rammstein
Thought to present a second opinion ~D
"Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies". - Friedrich Nietzsche
Sasaki Kojiro
07-26-2005, 17:38
Enough with quoting people. Let's hear what you think in your own words.
Byzantine Prince
07-26-2005, 19:16
Faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see.
That is a contradiction. The human mind thinks logically, and when faith is when it ignores all logic and starts wishful thinking. Faith is like when you are child and you hope to bcome an action hero. There is no difference between hoping you'll be something you'll never become and know it, and believing in someone that has never existed because you are hoping for a meaning.
IMO, no one is certain about their faith. If they were they wouldn't mourn death, and they wouldn't be afraid of it. If they trully believed they would be certain of where they will end up and they wouldn't have doubts. Well, most Christians I have ever met are terrified of death just like atheists and buddhists. Because they are uncertain, and because the logical side of their brain apears to be working once in a while.
That is a contradiction. The human mind thinks logically, and when faith is when it ignores all logic and starts wishful thinking. Faith is like when you are child and you hope to bcome an action hero. There is no difference between hoping you'll be something you'll never become and know it, and believing in someone that has never existed because you are hoping for a meaning.
IMO, no one is certain about their faith. If they were they wouldn't mourn death, and they wouldn't be afraid of it. If they trully believed they would be certain of where they will end up and they wouldn't have doubts. Well, most Christians I have ever met are terrified of death just like atheists and buddhists. Because they are uncertain, and because the logical side of their brain apears to be working once in a while.
It is quite a famous quote... and how is it a contradiction again?
King of Atlantis
07-26-2005, 21:23
Bp, just cause you can quote people who think god is just peoples imagination, does not make it fact. I have not seen you post one thing here that makes it a fact that God doesn't exist.
Byzantine Prince
07-26-2005, 21:32
Just cause I don't have facts doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Think about it, most problems in physics are solved with logic, and not facts.
Fact: People have believed in different gods before Christianity and Islam, and are now mostly laughed at because of their ridiculous beliefs
Fact: There is not one fact that god exists. This proves he doesn't. The only theory that religions have right now is the big bang, and even that is so far-fetched it's laughable. How can we ever know what hapened trillions of years ago, it's absurd to even think about.
Fact: People create Gods and fantasy worlds like heaven to sooth their hunger for infinite question of the universe that will likely never be answered. So instead of dealing with that fact, they create solutions that are easy to digest.
Need any more facts? ~:handball:
bmolsson
07-26-2005, 21:40
That is a contradiction. The human mind thinks logically, and when faith is when it ignores all logic and starts wishful thinking. Faith is like when you are child and you hope to bcome an action hero. There is no difference between hoping you'll be something you'll never become and know it, and believing in someone that has never existed because you are hoping for a meaning.
IMO, no one is certain about their faith. If they were they wouldn't mourn death, and they wouldn't be afraid of it. If they trully believed they would be certain of where they will end up and they wouldn't have doubts. Well, most Christians I have ever met are terrified of death just like atheists and buddhists. Because they are uncertain, and because the logical side of their brain apears to be working once in a while.
Isn't it rather so that faith is a product of logical thinking combined with the unknown ?
Isn't wishful thinking actually the urge and need to answer questions on the unknown and the future ?
Also, I can't say that most people I know are afraid of death. More the opposite actually. Fear of death is for me a question of maturity and peace with one self.
bmolsson
07-26-2005, 21:44
God doesn't exists, because when I knocked on heavens door, he said he wasn't there.....
bmolsson
07-26-2005, 21:56
People have faith because they expect something in return. They expect a meaning, and an afterlife, but they will never get those things. Never.
Faith doesn't really require that there are a meaning or an afterlife. Faith is trust for something or someone. I think the metaphysical spin on faith is only a lack of reality in one life. This doesn't mean that there is no God, meaning or afterlife. Most people can't accept the unknown. In this case you seem to be convinced there are nothing after and there is no meaning, but in reality you don't really know.
I always try to accept the unkown and respect both views.
Unfortunately, faith is misused as a political tool and even in an internet forum like this, emotions runs high when it's talked about.
Byzantine Prince
07-26-2005, 22:05
bmolsson you could make that useless argument about everything.
You can't say that [blank] doesn't exist because you don't know for sure.
Fill blank in with any combination of letters.
Well IMO I don't need to know for sure, something that there is no evidence for.
This conversation is getting dull, can we have a serious conversation about this instead of using mythology to prove our claims.
Fact: There is not one fact that god exists. This proves he doesn't.You can’t prove a negative and certainly not if it is extra-physical.
The only theory that religions have right now is the big bang, and even that is so far-fetched it's laughable. How can we ever know what hapened trillions of years ago, it's absurd to even think about.
The big bang is a religious construct?
bmolsson
07-26-2005, 22:13
bmolsson you could make that useless argument about everything.
You can't say that [blank] doesn't exist because you don't know for sure.
Fill blank in with any combination of letters.
Well IMO I don't need to know for sure, something that there is no evidence for.
This conversation is getting dull, can we have a serious conversation about this instead of using mythology to prove our claims.
It's not my intention to bore you BP, just wanted to suggest that you take faith for what it is. The existence of God, meaning or afterlife is irrelevant in our daily lives. Faith isn't. For us to be able to meet fanatism, fundamentalism and even extremism, we need to acknowledge the existence of faith and we need to try to understand what is under it.
Further more, note that I am not saying you are wrong..... ~:grouphug:
King of Atlantis
07-26-2005, 22:41
Think about it, most problems in physics are solved with logic, and not facts.
It seems logical that there is a God.
Fact: There is not one fact that god exists. This proves he doesn't. The only theory that religions have right now is the big bang, and even that is so far-fetched it's laughable. How can we ever know what hapened trillions of years ago, it's absurd to even think about.
there is not one fact that God doesn't exisr
Fact: People create Gods and fantasy worlds like heaven to sooth their hunger for infinite question of the universe that will likely never be answered. So instead of dealing with that fact, they create solutions that are easy to digest.
That not the purpose of christianity, but if it makes it easier to digest believe what you want. ~;)
Need any more facts? ~:handball
I would like some more opinions that you claim are facts. ~;)
King of Atlantis
07-26-2005, 22:43
This conversation is getting dull, can we have a serious conversation about this instead of using mythology to prove our claims.
If you will look at the argument I had with big john, the later part is more clear, nobody was using mythology as to prove any claims.
Well i dont have any friends that are extremist, but i would say he was missing some marbles. He said he had a "personal experience", he said he had "faith" and he 'felt it in his heart and soul". He said felt god tell him to blow himself up.
What do you say to this?
He (the soon-to-be-suicide bomber) said he had:
personal experience of god + felt god in his heart and soul (faith) = "missing some marbles".
You (King of Atlantis) said you had:
personal experience of god + felt god in your heart and soul (faith) = ???
~:confused:
I dont think so, but i dont really worry about who is or isnt going to hell. Im not God and im not the one to judge. I simply follow my spiritual path, and if I converted somebody that would be cool, but im not here to shove religion down anybody's throats. So all the animals in the world from the past to the present didnt' go to 'heaven' or 'hell'? No dinosaurs in heaven, no dogs, no cats no chickens?
no, is this a logical question. Dogs dont even know that the have a name, and arent advanced nearly enough to have some kind of though like that. So you are saying dogs aren't your 'god's' creation? Plants and other animals are essential in life. You probably think man can live without plants and other animals and organisms.
animals, sin? no, they only follow their instincts to survive. What makes humans(and mabye some other primates) different is we can tell the differnece between right and wrong. So if a lion kills and eats a gazelle it is wrong? If man kills and eats a chicken, it is right?
Lions have to eat too you know.
Dont have faith as they dont have enought mental power to follow a faith journey. Im not sure if the have a soul or not. They are good enough to fix nitrogen and provide us with food, but no 'soul'?
We just have a more advanced brain, that's all the difference there is really. So, the brain makes the soul?
Not very often, but i still could. That is free will. Making any descision represents free will. 'Not very often' means you more than 0 times you have eaten a toothbrush, shoe, pillow, or spoon and others that I have mentioned. I'm calling your bluff and free will ~;)
So, i choose to eat what i wanted. That is free will. I dont see your logic here at all. What you eat is already chemically determined by your DNA, ok? Enzymes that digest the food are encoded in your DNA.
Anything that those enzymes can't digest can't be food and hence you don't eat. Your choice of food was a 'choice' of your DNA NOT you!
King of Atlantis
07-27-2005, 02:43
He said he had a "personal experience", he said he had "faith" and he 'felt it in his heart and soul". He said felt god tell him to blow himself up.
What do you say to this?
He (the soon-to-be-suicide bomber) said he had:
personal experience of god + felt god in his heart and soul (faith) = "missing some marbles".
You (King of Atlantis) said you had:
personal experience of god + felt god in your heart and soul (faith) = ???
~:confused:
Your missing the point of faith. It isnt like I pray to God and he gives me a list of things to do. Someone who would think God tells them to break the laws he gave them is crazy.
So all the animals in the world from the past to the present didnt' go to 'heaven' or 'hell'? No dinosaurs in heaven, no dogs, no cats no chickens?
I said it before, and i'll say it again no.
So you are saying dogs aren't your 'god's' creation? Plants and other animals are essential in life. You probably think man can live without plants and other animals and organisms.
never said anything like that. I said they aren't smart enough to pray.
So if a lion kills and eats a gazelle it is wrong? If man kills and eats a chicken, it is right?
Lions have to eat too you know.
Neither of them are sinning. Did i say eating food is bad?
They are good enough to fix nitrogen and provide us with food, but no 'soul'?
We just have a more advanced brain, that's all the difference there is really. So, the brain makes the soul?
again i dont know. None of these questions are in a relgion so i would just be talking out of my ass to answer you.
'Not very often' means you more than 0 times you have eaten a toothbrush, shoe, pillow, or spoon and others that I have mentioned. I'm calling your bluff and free will ~;)
You didnt call any bluff. I COULD do those things, but im wise enough not too. I have eaten dirt and some others things that arent food before.
What you eat is already chemically determined by your DNA, ok? Enzymes that digest the food are encoded in your DNA.
No again i could eat whatever i wanted. My bodies reaction might be different thoug.
Anything that those enzymes can't digest can't be food and hence you don't eat. Your choice of food was a 'choice' of your DNA NOT you!
I could have eaten pizza or toast just now. They are both edible but i choose the one i wanted.
bmolsson
07-27-2005, 02:47
Free will is very interesting. How much of our lives are actually free will ? It's not very much actually. Try to go through what you do during a day and see how many of your decisions are actually free will and how many are due to instinct, fear, external expectations, laws etc...
King of Atlantis
07-27-2005, 03:04
You would be suprised how much stuff is free. When watching t.v i choose the channel i want to watch. I could care less about anything less than that.
Your missing the point of faith. It isnt like I pray to God and he gives me a list of things to do. Someone who would think God tells them to break the laws he gave them is crazy. It is his PERSONAL EXPERIENCE!! And he said he felt it in his heart and soul!
You said it is your personal experience and you felt god in your heart and soul.
No difference at all! You as a believer question a believer. How do you expect a nonbeliever not to question you?
I said it before, and i'll say it again no. Anything that's not in the bible right? In 5000 years, anything that's not in bible as well... In 10000 years?
never said anything like that. I said they aren't smart enough to pray. So god's creation: the animals are not allowed in heaven because they can't 'pray' and have 'faith'.
Neither of them are sinning. Did i say eating food is bad?
Some people say death penalty is good, and some say death penalty is wrong. They are both MAN (humans). What is right or wrong?
Again i dont know. None of these questions are in a relgion so i would just be talking out of my ass to answer you. Well, you said the dogs can't pray because their brain isn't developed. Our brain is developed so we can 'pray' and have 'faith'. Hence, the soul is a function of the brain.
So if dogs have a developed brain they can 'pray' and have 'faith' and god would let them in his 'heaven' and they would also get a 'soul'. :dizzy2:
You didnt call any bluff. I COULD do those things, but im wise enough not too. I have eaten dirt and some others things that arent food before.
Ok. You are in the middle of a huge desert. You haven't eaten in 5 day. You are tired, hungry and thirsty. There are no plants, water (underground) or animals. All there is are sand, rocks, the sun and your clothes. There is nothing within a 1000 mile radius but sand, rocks, the sun and your clothes.
Exercise your 'free will'. ~:)
No again i could eat whatever i wanted. My bodies reaction might be different thoug. You could but you didn't and you wouldn't ever eat your computer. ~:)
I could have eaten pizza or toast just now. They are both edible but i choose the one i wanted. Your DNA said you can digest carbohydrates (pizza and toast). That's not your choice but your DNA's choice. Your DNA said you can't digest your plate under the pizza and toast, that's why you have no free will to eat the plate.
King of Atlantis
07-27-2005, 04:01
It is his PERSONAL EXPERIENCE!! And he said he felt it in his heart and soul!
You said it is your personal experience and you felt god in your heart and soul.
No difference at all! You as a believer question a believer. How do you expect a nonbeliever not to question you?
I expect you to question me. Faith is all personal. My faith isnt meant to convert you, the only way to be religious is to have faith of your own.
Anything that's not in the bible right? In 5000 years, anything that's not in bible as well... In 10000 years?
actually i meant to say i dont know. Thats what i said the fisrt time, you twisted my point and even got me confused. I dont know if animals go to heaven and its really not a concern of mine.
So god's creation: the animals are not allowed in heaven because they can't 'pray' and have 'faith'.
The can't pray and have faith thats for sure, They are not nearly intellectual enough. As for going to heaven again i dont really know or care.
Some people say death penalty is good, and some say death penalty is wrong. They are both MAN (humans). What is right or wrong?
murder is wrong.
loving your neighbor is right.
on the death penalty i dont know. I dont claim to be God were I can say whats right or wrong.
Well, you said the dogs can't pray because their brain isn't developed. Our brain is developed so we can 'pray' and have 'faith'. Hence, the soul is a function of the brain.
Alright when i pray to god. I thank him for what he has done, ask for forgivnece etc. A dog can't do that or even understand the concept. So yes the mind, body and soul are all related.
So if dogs have a developed brain they can 'pray' and have 'faith' and god would let them in his 'heaven' and they would also get a 'soul'. :dizzy2:
they might already have a soul, but again i dont know. Surely if they had a developed brain then they could pray and have a faith.
Ok. You are in the middle of a huge desert. You haven't eaten in 5 day. You are tired, hungry and thirsty. There are no plants, water (underground) or animals. All there is are sand, rocks, the sun and your clothes. There is nothing within a 1000 mile radius but sand, rocks, the sun and your clothes.
Exercise your 'free will'. ~:)
alright i could sing, i could go pee, i could build a sand castle, etc... the list goes on and on.
You could but you didn't and you wouldn't ever eat your computer. ~:)
so you admit i have free will to do it.
Your DNA said you can digest carbohydrates (pizza and toast). That's not your choice but your DNA's choice.
yes my choice was which one i could eat.
Your DNA said you can't digest your plate under the pizza and toast, that's why you have no free will to eat the plate.
I cant digest it, but i could still eat it.
Where's this debate going. It certainly isn't heading upwards to "Heaven".
Just cause I don't have facts doesn't mean I'm wrong.
Think about it, most problems in physics are solved with logic, and not facts.
Fact: People have believed in different gods before Christianity and Islam, and are now mostly laughed at because of their ridiculous beliefs
Fact: There is not one fact that god exists. This proves he doesn't. The only theory that religions have right now is the big bang, and even that is so far-fetched it's laughable. How can we ever know what hapened trillions of years ago, it's absurd to even think about.
Fact: People create Gods and fantasy worlds like heaven to sooth their hunger for infinite question of the universe that will likely never be answered. So instead of dealing with that fact, they create solutions that are easy to digest.
Need any more facts? ~:handball:
These are, once again, your opinions... What you "know" within yourself, and what is true are not necessarily mutually inclusive.
bmolsson
07-27-2005, 11:15
You would be suprised how much stuff is free. When watching t.v i choose the channel i want to watch. I could care less about anything less than that.
God gives..... ~D
A.Saturnus
07-27-2005, 16:12
You would be suprised how much stuff is free. When watching t.v i choose the channel i want to watch. I could care less about anything less than that.
How do you know you´re acting free?
King of Atlantis
07-27-2005, 18:39
God gives..... ~D
It freedom that's not controlled. There are many other things too.
King of Atlantis
07-27-2005, 18:40
How do you know you´re acting free?
Cause i can make a descision and then act on it.
Big_John
07-27-2005, 18:55
free will is actually a very troubling subject, both philosophically and physically. it's quite off-topic, but you may not want to hitch any trains of thought to free will. it can get messy.
A.Saturnus
07-27-2005, 21:12
Cause i can make a descision and then act on it.
But how do you know it´s really your decision? You could be like the king of the small planet in Le Petit Prince, who ordered the sun to rise just when it was about to rise anyway. Would it still be "your" decision if it was a subconscious part of your mind that made it?
King of Atlantis
07-28-2005, 04:31
But how do you know it´s really your decision? You could be like the king of the small planet in Le Petit Prince, who ordered the sun to rise just when it was about to rise anyway. Would it still be "your" decision if it was a subconscious part of your mind that made it?
okay i guess you cant know if we have free will, but i still believe we do.
Okay and i have thought more on the definitions of faith/belief
belief-something that you hold to be true in your mind.
faith-when you believe with you mind, body, and soul.
Im not exactly sure about the body part, but faith certainly com from the mind and soul.
belief-something that you hold to be true in your mind.
faith-when you believe with you mind, body, and soul.Question: If you are unsure about the body part and as the soul is part of the mind. The difference between belief and faith narrows substantially, to be virtually the same.
Big_John
07-28-2005, 05:27
Question: If you are unsure about the body part and as the soul is part of the mind. The difference between belief and faith narrows substantially, to be virtually the same.the faithful (i'm generalizing i know) don't see the mind and the soul as being the same thing. you might want to define "soul" before continuing.
King of Atlantis
07-28-2005, 09:24
Yes the soul is different than the mind. when you die it is said the only thing that live is your soul. I can tell the difference between the soul and mind, but it is a very hard thing to explain. Maybe Pindar could help me out on this one..
Yes the soul is different than the mind. when you die it is said the only thing that live is your soul. I can tell the difference between the soul and mind, but it is a very hard thing to explain. Maybe Pindar could help me out on this one..
What is faith, belief, soul or mind?
These are difficult questions and I think there are a host of definitions out there.
I am not an authority on definitions as I am in truth not a native English speaker.
I have opinions though.
Soul and mind: Would a better distinction be soul and spirit?
As to belief and faith*: Belief would be an opinion as to the truth of a given claim and faith is belief in the absence of supporting evidence.
*It is funny that in Norwegian there is no distinction between faith and belief because both translate to the same word: Tro.
Yes the soul is different than the mind. when you die it is said the only thing that live is your soul. I can tell the difference between the soul and mind, but it is a very hard thing to explain. Maybe Pindar could help me out on this one..
Called forth as if by the Witch of Endor herself: I am summoned. :skull:
Soul and mind are typically seen as different. Soul refers to a metaphysical claim. It is individualized being that is not tied to or dependant on the material world. Depending on the Christian sect, there are positions that believe the soul pre-exists embodiment and survives after physical decay. It is taken to be the most intimate part of the self. Mind refers to thought or more specifically to reasoning ability. A new born baby would be seen as having a soul, but whose mind is in development. A loon also has a soul, but has lost the ability to control his mind.
King of Atlantis
07-28-2005, 22:26
Yeah, Pindar thats exactly how I see it.
This is sounding very "supernatural" to me.
I see the "soul" as something created by the mind. When you say you feel something in your soul, you are actually feeling it in your "mind". As we know all feeling is translated by the brain, i.e. "mind" from electrical signals it has received from the nerves.
Therefore the "soul" is a construct of the "mind" in a living person.
After death, the soul separating from the body is in the realm of the "supernatural" and can not be proved either way.
This is sounding very "supernatural" to me.
Of course! The soul is by defintition 'supernatural': it is beyond the natural arena. That is why I stated: "Soul refers to a metaphysical claim"
Yep. Which I why I do not believe in it. However, KoA believes in "God" becauses he feels it in his soul. Therefore he believes in his "Supernatural" soul and his belief is based on this. As I said, what you feel is actually in your mind not some "supernatural" thing. A belief in "God" is actually a further construct of the "mind".
Divinus Arma
07-28-2005, 22:53
Once you are dead then it is game over man. No more lives, no continues, and no save points.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could just click "up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A, B, A, Start"?
Got to be almost fifteen years and I still remember that!
Hmmm. I found a new siggy.
King of Atlantis
07-29-2005, 03:48
Soul and mind: Would a better distinction be soul and spirit?
In english those mean the exact same thing i think.
As to belief and faith*: Belief would be an opinion as to the truth of a given claim and faith is belief in the absence of supporting evidence.
In faith and belief neither need any "facts". They are both opinions, but faith is a much stronger opinion, as it is linked with a metaphysical claim, the soul.
I expect you to question me. Faith is all personal. My faith isnt meant to convert you, the only way to be religious is to have faith of your own. If you no standard, then that suicide bomber thinks he is 'right' and you and everyone else are 'wrong', no ifs or buts.
The law is the standard, that's why religion is obsolete.
actually i meant to say i dont know. Thats what i said the fisrt time, you twisted my point and even got me confused. I dont know if animals go to heaven and its really not a concern of mine. Animals are 'living' things too, that's all I can say.
The can't pray and have faith thats for sure, They are not nearly intellectual enough. As for going to heaven again i dont really know or care. Again, animals are 'living' things too.
murder is wrong.
loving your neighbor is right.
on the death penalty i dont know. I dont claim to be God were I can say whats right or wrong. You said 'man can tell the difference between right and wrong' and it's what separates us from animals.
Your bible is a constant, and that's a problem.
Alright when i pray to god. I thank him for what he has done, ask for forgivnece etc. A dog can't do that or even understand the concept. So yes the mind, body and soul are all related.
they might already have a soul, but again i dont know. Surely if they had a developed brain then they could pray and have a faith. Haha.
Dogs with developed brains who pray have a 'faith' and a 'soul' and they go to heaven.... :dizzy2:
Then all dogs go to hell then since they have no faith :embarassed:
That's the real destructive EGO: not just the individual first before the whole humanity, but that only human species matters but not his surroundings. ~:eek:
alright i could sing, i could go pee, i could build a sand castle, etc... the list goes on and on. Aha! I removed all the food and suddenly your 'free will to eat' disappears. Surprise, surprise! ~:)
so you admit i have free will to do it. No. I'll put it this way: your dna forced you to eat that pizza and toast by making it smell and taste good in your head/brain.
yes my choice was which one i could eat. The choices have already been made before you were born....
I cant digest it, but i could still eat it. But you have no urge to eat it. The dna forced you to eat that pizza (free will?). But you will force yourself to eat that shoe to prove me wrong (free will?).
i´d tough i could post here the best description of "heaven" i ever heard..
from "Calvin and Hobbes" (sorry i couldn´t locate the actual strip)
Calvin: Hobbes, what do you think happens to us when we die?
Hobbes: I think we play saxophone for an all-girl cabaret in New Orleans.
Calvin: So you believe in heaven?
Hobbes: Call it what you like.
.......i don´t think there´s anything after we die....but if that description was correct i wouldn´t mind ~D
bmolsson
07-29-2005, 11:06
Makes one think of soulmates. It's all about sex......
In english those mean the exact same thing i think.I have studied the faith that Pindar is a member of and one thing that I remember sticking out and that I found interesting was the notion of soul.
If I am not entirely mistaken, there is a difference between a soul and a spirit according to the faith in question.
A soul is the combination of body and spirit, the entirety of a being if you will. A soul without its spirit is just a body. A soul without its body is just a spirit. It is the combination of consciousness and flesh. It is the godly being.
This is of course a part of an intricate view of “what is this all about” where the purpose is to become eternal souls, a state where the spirit and body will never again separate, finally becoming the perfect being.
Maybe Pindar could clarify?
In faith and belief neither need any "facts". They are both opinions, but faith is a much stronger opinion, as it is linked with a metaphysical claim, the soul.You misunderstand.
In belief I make the assumption that the claim can be investigated; it makes truth claims in the physical realm.
Another word for this belief is world view.
Belief is flexible and change based upon maturity and new insight.
Faith on the other hand makes truth claims on the supernatural or metaphysics as we have used as the term in this thread.
There is no way we can find supporting (hand fast) evidence for this truth claim. Hence, the leap of faith.
I am aware of the religious notion of spiritual verification; the spirit speaks to spirit claim.
Faith can be lost or found but always makes an appeal to emotion.
Belief is an appeal to reason.
This is my current view (belief), but I am an open-minded person and can be swayed if convincing enough.
King of Atlantis
07-31-2005, 09:26
If you no standard, then that suicide bomber thinks he is 'right' and you and everyone else are 'wrong', no ifs or buts.
The law is the standard, that's why religion is obsolete.
Every religion is at odds with the other and even members of the same religion have slightly different faiths. Sure he thinks hes right and i think im right, simple as that.
Animals are 'living' things too, that's all I can say.
yes they are, but as for going to heaven i dont know if the go.
Again, animals are 'living' things too.
yes they are living, but they certainly aren't smart enough to have a faith, as the mind is invovled in faith as well as the soul.
You said 'man can tell the difference between right and wrong' and it's what separates us from animals.
well, we dont know the ultimate truth, but we can make moral judgement and try to do what we see as the right thing. Animals cant do this.
Your bible is a constant, and that's a problem.
no it's not.
Haha.
Dogs with developed brains who pray have a 'faith' and a 'soul' and they go to heaven.... :dizzy2:
Then all dogs go to hell then since they have no faith :embarassed:
going to hell or heaven would depend if dogs have a soul. They cant pray(do anything with the mind part of faith), so it would depend on their soul. They would be excused for not having much of a faith cause like babies they cant have one. Thus going to heaven depends on dogs having souls and i dont know if they have one.
That's the real destructive EGO: not just the individual first before the whole humanity, but that only human species matters but not his surroundings. ~:eek:
Whats destrucitve. Christianity teaches us to put God first, thus putting doing good before the individual. Of course Christians are human, so just like anybody else we are selfish, but that doesnt change the goal.
Aha! I removed all the food and suddenly your 'free will to eat' disappears. Surprise, surprise! ~:)
no i could have eaten the sand, but anyways yes there are obsitcales to free will. I cant jump up forty feet even though i want too, but just because somehting has limitations doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
No. I'll put it this way: your dna forced you to eat that pizza and toast by making it smell and taste good in your head/brain.
I said i had to choices and it was up to me to make one.
The choices have already been made before you were born....
AH! A calvanist! ~;)
But you have no urge to eat it. The dna forced you to eat that pizza (free will?). But you will force yourself to eat that shoe to prove me wrong (free will?).
wouldnt it be my free will to prove you worng?
I have studied the faith that Pindar is a member of and one thing that I remember sticking out and that I found interesting was the notion of soul.
If I am not entirely mistaken, there is a difference between a soul and a spirit according to the faith in question.
A soul is the combination of body and spirit, the entirety of a being if you will. A soul without its spirit is just a body. A soul without its body is just a spirit. It is the combination of consciousness and flesh. It is the godly being.
This is of course a part of an intricate view of “what is this all about” where the purpose is to become eternal souls, a state where the spirit and body will never again separate, finally becoming the perfect being.
Maybe Pindar could clarify?You misunderstand.
That is basically right. Mormonism takes the Resurrected Christ as the exemplar. The joining of spirit and element (the flesh) is a soul. The eternal joining of these two states is a necessary condition to achieve a fullness of joy. This is not a traditional view however.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.