Magyar and Khazars

[Steppe Merc]

Thank you all for having them in the game. If you need any sort of info about them, or other steppe matters, I'd love to help you guys in any way possible. ~D
I'm a historical advisor for EB, and I know a decent amount about the guys in question, and in matters such as the horses used, tactics, weapons and armor, and what really happened to them.
Just offering if you want some help. ~;)

[Krusader]

They also have Bulgars ~D

[ScionTheWorm]

If we could have a complete unit list for magyars and bulgars, I'll do them next. They will probably share a lot of models, maybe even units. Bopas descriptions looks very good, maybe you (bopa) could collect them into one post. And we should also get the bulgar unit list done.

cheers ~:cheers:

[Meneldil]

The Khazars are definitly a must to have :)

[ScionTheWorm]

they are of high priority yes

[caesar44]

Steppe , what about the religion of the Khazars ? Where they came from , what happened to them ?

I know this : at some point they became Jews (not ethnically) and they had the mightiest empire between the British ils and India in c. 800 ce

[caesar44]

A map

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/3976/webmap1.jpg

[The Wizard]

The Khazars were a Turkic tribe from one of the three tribal confederations that emerged from the Türküt Khakhanate. They were one of the first Turkic tribes to move westwards, if not the first (since it is unsure if Bulgars were actually Turks, or rather Iranian).



~Wiz

[The Stranger]

wow.....

[caesar44]

The Khazars were a Turkic tribe from one of the three tribal confederations that emerged from the Türküt Khakhanate. They were one of the first Turkic tribes to move westwards, if not the first (since it is unsure if Bulgars were actually Turks, or rather Iranian).



~Wiz


Thanks , please some details , about the Turkut Khakhanate and the three tribal confederations . what happened to the Khazars ? ~:cheers:

[skeletor]

Thats not really clear, as there is little evidence, but apparantly they were in parts overrun by the rus, and migrated to Poland, but was at the end whiped out by Genghis Khan.

You could try reading this (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm#The%20Thirteenth%20Tribe) article... Alot of reading about the affairs of the Khazars, Bulgars, Byzantines, and muslims.

-Skel-

[Steppe Merc]

I doubt that they moved to Poland. It's more likely that some became steppe auxalries for multiple nations including Russia and the Byzantines. Some probably were absorbed by the Pechenegs and later Qipchaqs, and ended up in Hungary (which was the typical ending place for defeated steppe tribes).

[Incongruous]

Hey Scion I think Legio has already done a Magyar unit list from my units descriptions

[ScionTheWorm]

Hey Scion I think Legio has already done a Magyar unit list from my units descriptions
no I think it's still the old ones in that thread (tech tree, beginning).

can somebody research bulgar units? will they be very similar to magyars?

[Incongruous]

I doubt it mate, I will try to find some info on them, but since I don't speak their language I will be deprived of some great sources :embarassed: .

[Steppe Merc]

I think Bulgars would be sort of similar to the Khazars and Magyars (horse archers, and all that). I have some info, I'll pull it up and post it when I get a chance .

[skeletor]

Anyone knows their religion... This is quite imortant..

-Skel-

[Incongruous]

I this where you wanted me to post the unit list I researched?

Well here it is.

Ok here goes the cavalry.
Note: Magyar cavalry should be bettter than the horse archers depicted in RTW. These guys wereb't defeated for over a century remember.

Cavalry.

Néptörzs Magyar. These fierce fighters from the Taranian plain shook Europe to its core, their ferociaty and skill with the bow and sabre allowed them to defeat every enemy they encountered for over a century, while the Englisc would dread the sails of the Viking keels, the rest of Europe would dread the thunder of Magayar hooves. "From the Magyars' arrows deliver us, oh God!". These horse archers would wear a knee lenght tunic of red and yellow cloth covered by a leather cuirass. Their boot were tough leather and went all the way up to the thighs. They wore leather bands around their hands to protect their fingers from the bow's lasserations. Their helmet was pointed iron with a horse hair crest of red upon it. Their horses had leather and scail protection and their stirrups allowed them great mobility upon the field.

Néptörzs Khabars. These tribesmen split off from the main Khazar community and joined the Magyar federation in search of a better home. They would wear a green knee length tunic and knee length leather boot along with a leather pointed cap rimmed with fur. They carried the Magyar recurve bow and the curved sabre. Their horse would of had only leather padding. These men are some of the fastest cavalry around, but lack armour.

To Second Rung.

Magyars ból a Alföld. These Magyars enjoy the benefits of technology and wealth. They wear a red and yellow knee length tunic under a sleeveless fir trimmed green jacket. Their boots are knee length and leather trimmed with white fur. They wear black leather gloves on their hands. They carry, a recurve bow and a sabre. Their horses are protected by scale and leather padding armour.

Nyugatra Avar. These Avars are all that remains of the people that once stormed forth from the Taranian plain. But they are still deadly. They would wear a chain mail hauberk and thigh lenght leather boots, a steel "Frankik" helmet with nose guard and eyepieces. These men would carry a long spear and a kite shield. Their horses had scale and leather padding/armour. These men are the earliest form of Magyar heavy cavalry.

Nagy Székely. These are the last nobles of the western Branch of the Huns, they are a proud race who ache for better times, they see the coming of their Magyar bretheren as their salavation. "They thought the scourge gone, but it was only drawing breath". These men wear black and grey furs over a cote of mail. Their helmets have developed from Rus and Hunnic designs, the result is a truly fearsome look. A pionted steel helm rimmed with black or grey wolf fur, it has a nose guard and eyepieces, a chain mail neck guard covers all of the face and neck save the eyes, atop this helm is a black horse hair plume. They wear chain and leather boots and and gloves, they carry the dreaded recurve bow as a secondry weapon, their main weapon is the dreaded double headed hun battle axe, at the tip of its head are hooks which they use to catch routers or pull other cavalrymen from their saddles. They also carry a round wooden shield coverd with leather and rimmed with steel. Their horses have scale armour covered with a black and grey fur horse coat. These men were called the scourge of god for good reason.

To Third Rung.

Lovasság ból a Fejedelem. These are the lesser nobles of a "prince's" tribe, some would even be his family. After seeing what heavily armoured horse could do the Magyar princes started to equip themselves and their retainers with heavy mail hauberks, they also started to put heavy scail-mail armour on their horses. These men wear a rich green and yellow thigh length tunic over a (long sleeved) knee length mail hauberk, there boots are still of leather as are their gloves. They wear the same helmet as the Nagy Székely except they have a green horse pleum instaed. They carry the recurve bow, and a larger version of the Magayar sabre. They are lead into battle by a prince, who would be wearing a lavish red and yellow cloak over a chainmail hauberk, they would wear black leather boots and gloves. They carry a recurve bow and a a sabre. Upon their heads they wear a steel frankik helm with a steel crouwn on it, atop this they would have a plume of red and yellow horse hair and three black feathers. Their horses are armoured exactly the same way as their men.

Lovasság ból a Alföld. These heavy lancers of the Pannonian plain are the second arm of the Magyar heavy cavalry wing. Armoured with a round wooden shield covered with leather and rimmed with steal, plate-mail, and a Frankik helm with nose guard and chain mail coif along with chain mail gloves. armed with a strong heavy lance and a sabre. Their horses are armoured with scail and leather padding. These men are part of the new Magyar cavalry wing, a heavy westernised lancer, they do not use the bow. These men have the edge over their western counterparts as they have more experiance because of almost constant warfare with Byzantium and the Bulgars for near a hundred years.

To Fourth Rung

Nemes ból a Palota. These nople of the palace have been selected from the highest nobles in the realm and have sworn undying alliegence to the Kende.
These men like the Magyars ból Buda are armed and armoured in the modern Frankik way, they are infact "pagan" versions of mounted knights. They bring onto the fiels the sacred banner of the Turul. When these men charge staraight at you, then you will know true fear, each and everyone hase been riding a horse since the age of four, they are the devil on horseback.

Pata ból a Kende. These men are the chosen warriors from among all the peoples of the Magyar fedarate, they wear plate and mail armour, a mail coif and gloves. Their helmet are the same as Lovasság ból a Fejedelem except thier plume is white. They carry a large Magyar sabre, a recurve bow and a kite shield. Their horses are armoured with chain-mail and then have a white horse coat over it. These men wear a red coat trimmed with white fur.
They are led into battle by the Kende (sumpreme chief/king) this man would wear plait armor and chainmail, a steel frankik helm, atop which is the Turul crest ( just a falcon with wings spread and both feet upn the helmet) made of silver, he would have a red and yellow sash around his waist. His horse would have chain mail armour coverd by a white and black horse coat.

This is the entire cavalry list, hope its ok it took me fricken ages.
Note: all magyars cavalry had the stirrup.

Infantry


Kisebbik Magyar.
A long knee lenght robe of red and yellow cloth under a thicker brown woolen garment that covered the chest, pointed leather cap rimmed with fur, a Magyar recurve bow, and either a spear, a sabre, or an axe.

Kisebbik Kabar , a thigh lenght tunic of green wool, knee length brown leather boots, a Magyar recurve bow, a simple iron skull cap and leather strips wrapped round their arm from their fingers to their elbows.

to second rung.

Kisebbik Magyar ból a Fejedelem, these are the lesser men from a Fejedelem's (princes) Magyer/tribe, they wear thigh length leather boots, a thigh lenght tunic of red cloth under a hauberk of scale armour and an iron pointed helmet with chainmail covering the back of the neck, carry the Magyar sabre aka. Hunnicus Gladius, a Magyar recurve bow and a round wooden shield covered in leather.

Lábfejek ból Székely fiú ból a Hunor, these are the Huns of the Alföld sons of Hunor brother of Magor father of the Magyars. These people are hard and rugged fighters, all that is left of the "Scourge of God". They wear a grey woollen thigh lenght tunic, and knee lenght leather boots, they wear on their torso a leather jerkin trimmed with Wolf fur and a leather pointed cap also trimmed with wolf fur. They carry the same bow as the Magyars and the same sword they also carry a small iron round shield.

Kisebbik Avars ból a Alföld, these heavily armoured spearmen are a strange concept in a Magyar army, they are slow moving heavily armoured spearmen. They wear a chainmail longsleeved hauberk that reaches just below their knees, a pair of fur boots and gloves, a pointed iron/steel helmet with a nose gaurd and eyepeices with chain mail attached from ear to ear. As a weapon they carry a long one handed thrusting spear, and in the other hand they hold a wooden tringular shield rimmed with steel/iron.

To Third Rung.

Lábfejek Magyar, these are the ultimate when it comes to pure Magyar shock infantry. long sleeved Chain mail hauberk, leather boots and gloves, a large two handed Magyar sabre, a pointed steel helm with a leather neck guard from cheek to cheek and alarge round shield on their back.

Kende's Avars. They were described by europeans as carrying "Halberds", they would wear a rich red and yellow cloth knee length tunic under a thigh length long sleeved mail hauberk, they wore knee lenght leather boots and "cut-off" gloves. Their helmet would have been the same as the Lábfejek Magyar but with a hoarse hair crest of red and yellow.

Kende's Lábfejek, these men were born to fire a bow, their skill is unmatched, they are the elite of the Magyar infantry. They would wear a long sleeved knee length cloth tunic of Red and yellow trimmed with green, under an open sleevless jacket of red and yellowed dyed wool trimmed with white fure. Their leather boots were knee lenght and black as were their gloves, their trousers were of a fine green cloth. They carried the best and most powerful recurve bowsand a steel sabre, on their heads they wore pointed steel helmet from which hung a chainmail neck gaurd from ear to ear and atop it they had a red, yellow and green hoarse hair crest.

Magyars ból Buda. These Magyar serve as the guards of the Royal city of Buda, they are formiddible fighters the elite among the seven Magyar tribes, the Huns, Avars and Khabars. They wield the long straight sword of the Franks, carry the Frankish kite shield and are armoured in exactly the same fashion as Frankish knights. Among them would be the Magyar priest the Táltos who would carry into battle the legendry banner of Árpád, The Turul.

I hope this is ok, when do you think you will have the first moddels done?

[Incongruous]

Note: Sorry when I say plate or Plate-Maile I mean the asian form of plate, such as the Samuria of the Moyammaya 9sp?0 period would have worn.

[Krusader]

Info on Bulgars. There are some links for Magyars and others in there too.

Battle Reenactment Group, but has lots of info with sources (http://www.kutriguri.com/index.html)

[ScionTheWorm]

very good bopa.

the thing knowing about similar units is that if their models is the same, it's really fast to skin one or two more when one is finished (for instance magyar archer. then when I've done that skin, I would quickly do the bulgar too,)

I'm sorry I'm a little absent this week, and will be totally next week. I'm working on a cas import/export script for blender actually, and having some time away from the screen :barrel: :barrel:

[Steppe Merc]

The Bulgars, will they be the Balkan Bulgars or the Volga Bulgars? Because there were really two Bulgar Kingdoms, one on the steppe, one in the Balkans.

Bopa, some of those horse archers should have no horse armor, IMO.

[Incongruous]

No alot of first hand sources state that the Magyars did use armour for there horses.

[Dol Guldur]

I saw your interest in the oft-forgotten Khazar Empire and thought I'd post some notes from my own study of this interesting matter of some years ago.

I can recommend Arthur Koestler's work (The Thirteenth Tribe), as a previous poster has linked to already - he drew on Arabic sources (to this day I believe Moslems refer to the Caspian Sea as Bahr-ul-Khazar, meaning 'the Khazar Sea').

The Khazars were a cavalry-based culture. They had an enormous power at one point and stretched over some centuries...

AD 0627: Khazars lend 40,000 horsemen to Byzantine Emperor in order to defeat Persians

AD 0635-0737: Arab-Khazar War (Khazar buffers Europe from Moslem forces)

AD 0641: Khazars defeat Bulgars - The Bulgars, after their defeat, split into two groups. Those that went northeast settled in the middle Volga and remained under the power of the Khazars. The group that went west were eventually to settle what we now call Bulgaria.

AD 0650: Fall of West Turkish Empire; Rise of Khazar Empire - The Khazars came to rule all of 'The Kingdom of the North' and at the height of their power controlled or had tribute from thirty nations and tribes between the Caucasus, Aral Sea, Ural Mountains, Kiev, and the Ukrainian Steppes. M.I. Artamonov, a Soviet archaeologist, wrote in his book Istroria Khazar:

"Until the ninth century, the Khazars had no rivals to their supremacy in the regions north of the Black Sea and the adjoining steppe and forest regions of the Dnieper...The Khazars were the supreme masters of the southern half of Eastern Europe for a century and a half, and presented a mighty bulwark, blocking the Ural-Caspian gateway from Asia into Europe. During this whole period, they held back the onslaught of the nomadic tribes from the East."

To emphasise the importance placed upon the Khazar Empire by the great power of Constantinople it is interesting to note that Constantine Porphyrogenitus, Byzantine Emperor and a historian, said in the Tenth Century that whereas the Pope of Rome and the Emperor of the West received communications from Constantinople sealed with a 2-solidi-worth gold seal, the Kagan (the Khazar King) received his letters sealed with a 3-solidi-worth gold seal!

AD 0732: Byzantine Emperor, Constantine V, marries Khazar princess (same year as Battle of Tours: Charles Martel defeats Moors in France)

AD 0740: Around this time the Khazars make Judaism their state religion - The Khazars had Jews (mainly Karaites, a strict sect) living among them and so were familiar with the religion. Not only this but the Jews evidently exercised quite some influence in the Kagan's court. The move to Judaism was thought to be a political move on the part of the Khazars, as converting to the Christian or Moslem religion would have meant being subordinated to the Eastern Roman Emperor or Caliph respectively. This way Khazaria retained its independence as a separate power in the world. The Jews considered Khazar a haven before AD 740 but afterwards came to think of it more as a national home. Khazar, in its written language and crafts etc., gradually became Judaized.

AD 0775: Leo IV (son of Constantine V by Khazar wife) rules as Byzantine Emperor (also known as 'Leo the Khazar')

AD 0862: Rus settle parts of western Russia; Novgorod founded; Kiev passes from Khazar to Russian control and begins to become central city of Russian federation; Russia begins its history as a nation under Prince Rurik

AD 0896: Magyars conquer and settle Hungary - The Magyars were a people related in their language group to the Finns, although they lived in the region of the Slavonic tribes. They were long-term allies of Khazaria and when they settled Hungary it is thought their ruling horde were Kabars (a tribe of the Khazars). The Hungarian language (Magyar) shows many loan words from a Turkic tongue.

AD 0965: The Rus defeat a Khazar army - Khazar (or Khazaria) at this point in time had lost much of its former power but was still strong in its heartland. Subsequent and vague events indicate that Khazaria was raided several times but may have survived as a state until AD 1150 or maybe even into the middle of the Thirteenth Century. Its influence, by blood and by its Jewish religion, spread into the nations around it though. Turkey, Hungary, Russia and Constantinople all received an infusion of Khazar blood, and Russia received many of the Khazar Jews. In Russian folklore Khazar is called the 'Land of the Jews', and in the West the Sephardic Jews referred to the Khazar Jews as 'Red Jews' (possibly a reference to the slight reddish colour of the skin compared with the West or perhaps because of their alleged Edomite blood). During the time after the decline of the Mongols in the West, Poland-Lithuania was well-known for its strong Jewish population and its many synagogues. The last of the Khazar migrations over to the Poland-Lithuania area (beginning around AD 962) occurred in the 15th-16th Century.
This evidence presents a strong, if somewhat controversial, case for Eastern European Jewry being of Turkic (Khazar) blood descent and not true Judahites. The Polish historian, Adam Vetulani, says on this matter: "Polish scholars agree that these oldest settlements were founded by Jewish emigres from the Khazar state and Russia, while the Jews from Southern and Western Europe began to arrive and settle only later...and that a certain proportion of the Jewish population (in earlier times, the main bulk) originated from the east, from the Khazar country, and later from Kievian Russia."

AD 0987: Russians take Crimea from Khazars - Byzantium did nothing to help their old allies, the Khazars, as Russia was becoming a powerful and more friendly nation (despite intermittent clashes with the Eastern Empire); the Khazars were beginning to decline in their importance as far as Constantinople was concerned.

AD 1016: A Byzantine-Russian army subdues Khazaria; Khazar migrations into Eastern Europe begin in earnest about this time

AD 1245: Around this time the Mongols invade Khazaria and Khazar ceases as a nation

The 'Jews' of Poland were most probably Khazars, and the Yiddish language probably came from a mix of the Khazar Hebrew in the Alpine regions rather than from Germany; linguistic studies lend weight to this view.

Hope this helps. Now, back to Middle-earth...

[Steppe Merc]

No alot of first hand sources state that the Magyars did use armour for there horses.
That's my point.
For your units, you have even the first level horse archers the Néptörzs Magyar with "Their horses had leather and scail protection and their stirrups allowed them great mobility upon the field." Most horse archers wouldn't have any horse armor at all, even many heavy cavalry.
To have ever Magyar with horse armor would be impossible, due to the expense. Only the richest of the rich could afford full horse armor.

[Incongruous]

I put the maile option in simply as an option, which could easily be replaced by leather and metal coats in the asian style, but still, the Magyars were known to use horse armour.

[Steppe Merc]

Yes. But, only a few, that is what I'm saying. There should be no horse armor of any kind except for the elite of the elite. No Horse nation, from Parthians to the Turks to the Mongols, or even the Byzantines or the Medieval Knights had all of their horses armoured. It was the opposite, only a few horses were armored.
Most steppe warriors couldn't afford any sort of armor for themselves. The few that could often couldn't afford horse armor. Only a very few could afford any sort of horse armor.
I'm not saying that none should have horse armour, but only the richest of the rich nobles.

[caesar44]

The Jews are steppe People !!! ~D ~D ~D seems odd to me . but how can I know , I am living in the holly land... ~:cheers:

[Steppe Merc]

No, some Khazars converted to Judiasim. What amount is unknown.

[Incongruous]

No I disagree, I beleiev that when the German chroniclers wrote of the Magyars using armour upon their horses, they would mean the majority, and yes the Byzantines used horse armour. What I meant by horse armour was quilted leather and other materials including some metal ring woven into the armour.

You cannot compare the Magyars to Steppe peoples because they weren't typical Steppe peoples, they knew of and used irrigated argriculture, and unlike the Huns and Parthians, were known for their heavy cavalry.

[Meneldil]

The Parthians were known for their Heavy Cavalry. They invented Kataphraktoi I think.

The Khazar knew agriculture, built important cities, yet they were a steppe people, and all their cavalry wasn't heavily armoured aswell. And they had some quite good heavy cavalry.

As for the Khazar's religion, well I have no idea how many of them converted to Judaism, but in the high middle age, Khazar was kinda like Israel : the place where all jews wished to live in.

[Steppe Merc]

Thank you Meneldil. The chroniclors also claimed all Sarmatians were heavy armoured lancers, but that was obviously untrue. I am aware of the different sorts of horse armors, and there is no way that the majority of any nation's horse had horse armor. That would be impossible, especially for a steppe nation. Every warrior just wouldn't be rich enough, and it wouldn't be practical. Even light horse armor would slow down an unarmoured horse archer.
And the Parthians invented the Kataphraktoi type (or perfected it at least), and even they or the later Sassanains had only some horse armor, and only on the richest of the rich.

[Incongruous]

Dude!
I am serious, this horse armour would noy have been expensive, hardened animal skin/leather, with a fer strips or ringlets of metal, then after the Magyars had raided Europe and plundered the Byzantines, yes every warrior would have been wealthy.Remember there were very, very few Magyars.

[Steppe Merc]

Bopa, all knights were wealthy too. Every single one. Not all of them used horse armor. All Parthian cataphracts were wealthy. Not all used horse armor. To be a heavy horse, they have to be wealthy. However, not all used horse armor. And an unarmoured horse archer would not use horse armor of any sort either.

I'm not trying to be argumentitive, I just think it would be a grave mistake to assume that all Magyars had horse armor. No nation that I know of, not any, had every horse armored. The Byzantine's heavy horse wasn't all armored either.

[Incongruous]

Oh but they did, perhaps you are thinking too much of western horse armour, I will try to find a picture for. Having this early Magyar horse armour was not about wealth, they made it themselves from hunted animals and scraps of metal.

[Steppe Merc]

Trust me, when I think of horses, I think of steppe horses, not Western. ~;)

[skeletor]

Bopa/steppemerc: due to the game mecanics, all unit's of the same type must have the same armour... Could you figure out what unit's wold probably have a majority of horsearmour, and who wold not, so that we could make a comprimize?

Allso, as im doing with the vikings, i have split up unit's, that is the same unit, but have been given diffrent names over time. They were so varied in skills and armour, so i make one unit with the name most used early on, and then make a second, heavier unit with the later name.

This makes it work with the game-engines techtree, and allso gives you both aspects of the unit.

If you know(could find) diffrent names used in diffrent eras wold be comprimizing and great for us modelolers :-)

-Skel-

[Steppe Merc]

Well I'd say only the richest nobles, and the general's bodyguard unit.
But I won't be around for a week to continue arguing my case.

[Incongruous]

Well since your under limits Skeletor lets say that all first rung cavalry are without horse armour, but the second ring upwards would have it, possibly stretched to the third.
I stand by the beleif that the Magyars used horse armour, which they made themselves.

[caesar44]

A question for the moders - I suppose the Khazar generals will have Jewish names like Moses or Abraham ??? ~D ~D ~D

[skeletor]

I don't think we have looked too mutch in to the names, but i found a list of Khazarian names. They used a mixture of Turkic, Hebrew, and some Bulgarian names..

Male Khazarian names

Turkic names:
Alp (means "hero")
Baghatur (means "brave warrior")
Balgitzi, Belgichi, Bälgichi, Balghichi
Barjik
Bashtu, Bashtwa
Bihor, Biheros, Bihar, Virhor
Bugha (means "bull")
Bulan (means "elk")
Bulchan, Buljan, Bluchan
Buzer, Busir, Bazir
Chat
Chat`n
Chorpan (means "star")
Itakh (means "puppy")
Kayghalagh, Kayqalagh
Khatir, Khadir
Khuterkin, Quterkin (means "chief with heavenly good fortune")
Kisa
Kundajiq, Kundaj
Mänär
Mänäs
Morut, Marót
Menumorut, Menmarót, Mënü Marót
Ötemish
Papatzys
Samsam, Simsam
Tarkhan (normally a title; means "general" or "commander")
Tarmach
Trukeg
Tuzniq
Yilig, Ilig
Ziebil (probably equal to the title Yabghu, Jebghu)

Hebrew names:
Aharon, Aaron
Amram
Avraham, Abraham
Benyamin
David
Hanukkah
Hezekiah
Menakhem, Menahem
Menashe
Nisi, Nissi
Obadiah, Ovadiah
Pesakh, Pesah
Reuven, Reuben
Sabriel
Shmuel
Simson
Sinai
Yaakov
Yehudah
Yitzhak
Yosef
Zebulun, Zavulon
Zechariah, Zachariah, Zecharias

Slavic names:
Gostyata, Gostata
Ivan

Other names:
George, Georgios, Georgius
Kupin, Kufin
Zambri, Zambrios
Zoilus, Zoilos
Kibar

They should start with a general called [Itakh (means "puppy")] given all the tyrant and bloody traits...

-Skel-

[Dol Guldur]

I'm sure the modders are aware of the on-line resources such as http://www.khazaria.com - which contains a page on Turkic/Hebrew/Slavic Khazarian names among other things.

[skeletor]

Nice, i think i have seen it, but i have done most of my research on the "the thirteenth tribe" page.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm#The%20Thirteenth%20Tribe

Alot of good reading there, and it's written in contex with the history of all the surounding empires.

-Skel-

[Forgus]

Guys, merc, Boba,

No offense intended, but there are serious problems with the unit descriptions. Unfortunately the Hungarian frases are really bad, to a native speaker they sound even hilarious. Sorry.
But if you let me I help you. Being native and having a good knowledge of Hungarian history I think I can put together something historically correct. And of course I can access a whole lot of resources unavailable to you...
What do you say?

[Forgus]

Cavalry.

Néptörzs Magyar.

It is not correct It would be correct to say Magyar Törzsszövetség - Alliance of the tribes of the Magyars (at least that's how we say it)


These fierce fighters from the Taranian

Where is it? Do you mean Turanian? It is a rather mythical place, hot a geographic unit...


plain shook Europe to its core, their ferociaty and skill with the bow and sabre allowed them to defeat every enemy they encountered for over a century, while the Englisc would dread the sails of the Viking keels, the rest of Europe would dread the thunder of Magayar hooves. "From the Magyars' arrows deliver us, oh God!". These horse archers would wear a knee lenght tunic of red and yellow cloth covered by a leather cuirass. Their boot were tough leather and went all the way up to the thighs. They wore leather bands around their hands to protect their fingers from the bow's lasserations. Their helmet was pointed iron with a horse hair crest of red upon it. Their horses had leather and scail protection and their stirrups allowed them great mobility upon the field.

If you wish I will come up full comments on the armament and accessories of the Magyars later, along with pictures.

Néptörzs Khabars.

Let's say the "Kabarok törzse" instead or "Kabar törzs" or even "Kabarok" would be fine.

These tribesmen split off from the main Khazar community and joined the Magyar federation in search of a better home. They would wear a green knee length tunic and knee length leather boot along with a leather pointed cap rimmed with fur. They carried the Magyar recurve bow and the curved sabre. Their horse would of had only leather padding. These men are some of the fastest cavalry around, but lack armour.



To Second Rung.

Magyars ból a Alföld.

I guess you mean Magyars of the Alföld. That would be "Alföldi magyarok".
Unfortunately we are more into the realm of fantasy here,sorry to say.

These Magyars enjoy the benefits of technology and wealth. They wear a red and yellow knee length tunic under a sleeveless fir trimmed green jacket. Their boots are knee length and leather trimmed with white fur. They wear black leather gloves on their hands. They carry, a recurve bow and a sabre. Their horses are protected by scale and leather padding armour.

Nyugatra Avar.

This is Nyugati Avarok, or rather plainly Avarok. Once again te describtion is doubtful.. By the time the Hungarians got there there were only traces of Avars in the area.

These Avars are all that remains of the people that once stormed forth from the Taranian plain. But they are still deadly. They would wear a chain mail hauberk and thigh lenght leather boots, a steel "Frankik" helmet with nose guard and eyepieces. These men would carry a long spear and a kite shield. Their horses had scale and leather padding/armour. These men are the earliest form of Magyar heavy cavalry.

Nagy Székely.

This is totally wrong. The origins of the székelys is still debated, but appearantly they were not part of the seven tribes. How did you get this description????

These are the last nobles of the western Branch of the Huns, they are a proud race who ache for better times, they see the coming of their Magyar bretheren as their salavation. "They thought the scourge gone, but it was only drawing breath". These men wear black and grey furs over a cote of mail. Their helmets have developed from Rus and Hunnic designs, the result is a truly fearsome look. A pionted steel helm rimmed with black or grey wolf fur, it has a nose guard and eyepieces, a chain mail neck guard covers all of the face and neck save the eyes, atop this helm is a black horse hair plume. They wear chain and leather boots and and gloves, they carry the dreaded recurve bow as a secondry weapon, their main weapon is the dreaded double headed hun battle axe, at the tip of its head are hooks which they use to catch routers or pull other cavalrymen from their saddles. They also carry a round wooden shield coverd with leather and rimmed with steel. Their horses have scale armour covered with a black and grey fur horse coat. These men were called the scourge of god for good reason.

To Third Rung.

Lovasság ból a Fejedelem.

A fejedelem lovassága? Doesn't sound too good...

These are the lesser nobles of a "prince's" tribe, some would even be his family. After seeing what heavily armoured horse could do the Magyar princes started to equip themselves and their retainers with heavy mail hauberks, they also started to put heavy scail-mail armour on their horses. These men wear a rich green and yellow thigh length tunic over a (long sleeved) knee length mail hauberk, there boots are still of leather as are their gloves. They wear the same helmet as the Nagy Székely except they have a green horse pleum instaed. They carry the recurve bow, and a larger version of the Magayar sabre. They are lead into battle by a prince, who would be wearing a lavish red and yellow cloak over a chainmail hauberk, they would wear black leather boots and gloves. They carry a recurve bow and a a sabre. Upon their heads they wear a steel frankik helm with a steel crouwn on it, atop this they would have a plume of red and yellow horse hair and three black feathers. Their horses are armoured exactly the same way as their men.

Lovasság ból a Alföld.

Forget this please.

These heavy lancers of the Pannonian plain are the second arm of the Magyar heavy cavalry wing. Armoured with a round wooden shield covered with leather and rimmed with steal, plate-mail, and a Frankik helm with nose guard and chain mail coif along with chain mail gloves. armed with a strong heavy lance and a sabre. Their horses are armoured with scail and leather padding. These men are part of the new Magyar cavalry wing, a heavy westernised lancer, they do not use the bow. These men have the edge over their western counterparts as they have more experiance because of almost constant warfare with Byzantium and the Bulgars for near a hundred years.

To Fourth Rung

Nemes ból a Palota.

A nemesek - nobles - scame in feudal times, around 250 years later. Similarly, the Magyars had no palaces at that time.

I'm sorry, I can't take it any longer... It is full fantasy.

[ScionTheWorm]

thanks!

[Steppe Merc]

Forgus, I didn't even work on the descs, I was just trying to help. :bow:
What info do you have on the appearance and the arms and armorment of the Magyars?

[Forgus]

Pictures, describtions, detailed describtion of tactics, etc. I have to scan them though, most part is at my partents' house.

stuff like you see on http://istvandr.kiszely.hu/ostortenet/036.html

I do some research and will come up with a unit list too.

Generally Magyar military was not very diverse. Usually they had ligt horse warriors with leather armour or sometimes chainmail armour, I doubt they had horse armour but I will take a look. All warriors werw equipped with a bow, and either a lance (koplya) or a long shafted pick (fokos). Most wielded also the scimitar like szablya. There is evidence that some used small round buckler-like shields too. Historically the Kabars and Besenyős as allied non-Hungarian (Turkish) people who came with the Magyars were made to provide the avantgarde and rearguard and therefore acted like light horse archers, little or no armour, light horse skirmishers etc.
The Magyars at that period had no infantry at all, sometimes in defense irregulars or pesants might have been pushed to service unmounted, but this is all guesswork.
At that period, the hungarian armies applied three kinds of tactics: as later the Mongols they were strictly organized into groups of ten, one hundred and one thousand, and were pretty discliplined in carrying out orders.
So the three tactics mentioned:
1) Softening attack: advance quickly, shoot some salvoes of arrows, then withdaw mostly made unit by unit
2) charge with lancers in front, firing arrows on the way
3) fake routing: this made the enemy to charge ahead, where they could be decieved to preak into smaller groups and dealt with one by one, mostly by shooting arrows backwards. This was pretty effective against heavy cavalry.
Interesting fact that the bodyguard of the Magyar tribal leaders (nemzetségfők, vagy bők (careful, it is not a title! The title is úr) very often employed viking or normann mercenaries. (though I don't think that they would make up a unit...

This much for now...

[Forgus]

how to insert pics?

[Forgus]

I see...
Check this out:
http://ehumana.hu/arpad/pic/pictures/ny-05.jpg

[Rodion Romanovich]

Thanks, very useful info from all of you!

@Forgus: will you make a unit list, or can you look at the new magyar tech tree I'll post in the first post, and come with suggestions for better unit names and other changes? Would be very helpful for us.

[Forgus]

Thanks, very useful info from all of you!

@Forgus: will you make a unit list, or can you look at the new magyar tech tree I'll post in the first post, and come with suggestions for better unit names and other changes? Would be very helpful for us.

Shure thing. Just give me a few days, I'm redecorating the kitchen at the moment. Damn carpenters...

[Forgus]

OK the unit list as promised:
Pre martian
Kabarok – light skirmishers armed with bow, good movement, tires slowly, can fire backwords
Vitézek – bow, longer distance and rate, sword, tire quick in melee, can fire backwords
Koplyások – clad in leather armour, bow, (shorter distance) small round shield lance
Köplények – see kylfingar or kolbjagi, Varegian medium heavy cavalry chainmail, should not be recruited easily

Ante martian - at 1001 (first christian king I. (saint) Stephan was crowned, the military turns gradually into western style military

German (Schwab, Bayernish) knights – I don’t really know what type armour, sword, shield lance?
Varjág testőrök – household cavalry of the king, Varegian heavy cavalry, lance shield short shafted axe, chainmail
Várjobbágyok – see koplyások but christian looking, stonger melee
Besenyők – similar to the Kabars, different skin
Vitézek see above, a more chrisrian skin, stronger melee

No infantry. All names in plural.

Shame the mod ends at 1100. some years later we could add quite interesting units like Arab archers, Cumani, etc...

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, thanks a lot! ~:cheers:

We're not planning marian reform system, but we'll form the tech trees based on scripting etc. to make the new units appear when historically appropriate, according to your info, plus adapt it to the system of buildings complexes and balance it, more historically than gameplay based, against the other tech trees.

As for the ending date, we're thinking about later making an early crusader era mod, spanning from perhaps 1099 to 1204, but one thing at the time...

[Forgus]

OK. I thik about including these into the tech tree... Conversion into cristianity was quick, for many forced and cruel, and really changed everyday life dramaticly. Is it possible to build a building that can be used as as a prerequisite for buildings in other settlements? I think about a "Conversion to christianity" "Building" (rather an event) after wich temples and monasteries could be built instead of secred groves and stuff, nand therefore enable to build barracks for christian units?

[Rodion Romanovich]

I've not yet begun on scripting (will do when most basic campaign map stuff has been fixed), but I'm sure you can have events set at certain dates, or create events related to dates and a slightly random-looking factor or two to not make it related to the exact date (making it more interesting perhaps). One can also seek more complex triggers reminding of the historical triggers. The reason why magyars were converted isn't certain afaik, but it could be something along the lines of:
1. there was a conflict between orthodox and catholics.
2. the magyars had reached their settlements in the pannonia area.
3. the magyars had become slightly weakened, and benefitted somewhat from the alliance a conversion would mean.
4. date should be after say, 950.

Could that be a valid set of triggers or is anything in it wrong? How that is converted to game triggers may be discussed, but for example I think it's possible to control province ownerships, whether certain factions are at war (not sure), and minimum date. Another way of creating triggers could be to have it through a trait. If, say, a man who gets the trait "Supports Christian conversion" becomes ruler, he could cause this conversion. And how he'd get that trait, could depend on a number of factors like date, province ownerships etc.

BTW, about the szekely, are they an unhistorical unit?

[Forgus]

I've not yet begun on scripting (will do when most basic campaign map stuff has been fixed), but I'm sure you can have events set at certain dates, or create events related to dates and a slightly random-looking factor or two to not make it related to the exact date (making it more interesting perhaps). One can also seek more complex triggers reminding of the historical triggers. The reason why magyars were converted isn't certain afaik, but it could be something along the lines of:
1. there was a conflict between orthodox and catholics.
2. the magyars had reached their settlements in the pannonia area.
3. the magyars had become slightly weakened, and benefitted somewhat from the alliance a conversion would mean.
4. date should be after say, 950.

Could that be a valid set of triggers or is anything in it wrong? How that is converted to game triggers may be discussed, but for example I think it's possible to control province ownerships, whether certain factions are at war (not sure), and minimum date. Another way of creating triggers could be to have it through a trait. If, say, a man who gets the trait "Supports Christian conversion" becomes ruler, he could cause this conversion. And how he'd get that trait, could depend on a number of factors like date, province ownerships etc.
Is it possible that all characters could have one trait from the following group:
pagan, muslim, israelite (Khazars were convertites therefore not Jevish), orthodox or catholic? From different fractions the distribution should vary like for the Magyars in 1000 should be like 35% pagan, 15% orthodox, 5% muslim, 50% catholic. This could change every say 50 years.
The conversion could occur, if the ruler becomes any kind of christian, is allied to either Bizantium or Rome, and the date is after 950... or something like that.
So when I suggest the tech tree can I count on having any kind of conversion event in the game?

[Csatadi]

Maybe I can help you in this project, but what is the starting time?

I do not remember any horse armour from the books I read about the theme.

The 'Néptörzs' word is too complicated, only historians use this word. The simply 'Törzs' is better choice. But similar to the Gauls they can be simply Magyars.

Baptizing people especially by force does not mean they throw away their original religion. No surprize there were pagan revolutions in 1046 and ~1072. The people -in this case the Magyars- will keep their customs and their old religion for decades until the missionaries and the rulers (soldiers) will wins.

I never heard about Varagians in the service of the Hungarian kings.

The people of the steppe were very similar. Besenyők (Pechenegs), Bolgárok (Bulgarian), Magyars, Kabars (or Kavars) Khazars all the same. Exceptions can be the special circumstances. I do not know how many chainmails and swords get the Magyars, did they use them or not.

Forgus the picture you inserted is an idealized one. Most of the people had only a bow and nothing else. Maybe a cheap koplya (spear) or a fokos (spontoon?). Only the richest may have sabres (there are only few in the findigs).

It can be important they go in fight with a lot of horses. They were able change the tired or injured horse to anoter one. Therefore I suggest (very) good stamina to (all) the steppen people.

Székelys or Székelyek are not a fantasy people they live yet (now!) in Transylvania. Their origin is not clear. They were maybe Bulgarians, Kabars or who knows?

The Várjobbányok were the officials of the Várnépek (=Castle warriors in this meaning).

Do you need old Hungarian names?

I have an English languaged history book for school children. I will scan it for myself and can drop it in file if you are interested.

[Meneldil]

Fergus already gave us a list of name, but I wouldn't mind if you had some surnames to share with us ~;)

Edit : the starting date is 843

[Forgus]

Maybe I can help you in this project, but what is the starting time?

I do not remember any horse armour from the books I read about the theme.

The 'Néptörzs' word is too complicated, only historians use this word. The simply 'Törzs' is better choice. But similar to the Gauls they can be simply Magyars.

Baptizing people especially by force does not mean they throw away their original religion. No surprize there were pagan revolutions in 1046 and ~1072. The people -in this case the Magyars- will keep their customs and their old religion for decades until the missionaries and the rulers (soldiers) will wins.

I never heard about Varagians in the service of the Hungarian kings.

The people of the steppe were very similar. Besenyők (Pechenegs), Bolgárok (Bulgarian), Magyars, Kabars (or Kavars) Khazars all the same. Exceptions can be the special circumstances. I do not know how many chainmails and swords get the Magyars, did they use them or not.

Forgus the picture you inserted is an idealized one. Most of the people had only a bow and nothing else. Maybe a cheap koplya (spear) or a fokos (spontoon?). Only the richest may have sabres (there are only few in the findigs).

It can be important they go in fight with a lot of horses. They were able change the tired or injured horse to anoter one. Therefore I suggest (very) good stamina to (all) the steppen people.

Székelys or Székelyek are not a fantasy people they live yet (now!) in Transylvania. Their origin is not clear. They were maybe Bulgarians, Kabars or who knows?

The Várjobbányok were the officials of the Várnépek (=Castle warriors in this meaning).

Do you need old Hungarian names?

I have an English languaged history book for school children. I will scan it for myself and can drop it in file if you are interested.
Believe me, I have my sources...
"A királyi sereg másodikként említendõ nehézfegyverzetû páncélos törzsét a Taksony kori skandináv "kölpény", a Géza kori "sváb" és az István fejedelem kori "bajor" t lovasság után 1030-ra varég-orosz fegyveresekkel egészítették ki. Ezt a megállapítást a következõ egybevetés igazolja. Imrérõl egykorú forrás azt jegyezte fel, hogy címe dux Ruizorum, azaz "oroszok vezére" volt, trónörökös utódjáról, Orseolo Péterrõl pedig azt írták, hogy mint trónörökös, princeps exercitus regis, "a királyi sereg parancsnoka" lett. Minthogy régi magyar nyelven az oroz szónak "királyi ajtónálló, csatlós, a testõr" jelentése is volt, a bizánci császárnak pedig, ugyanúgy, mint a kijevi nagyfejedelemnek, rúsz, ill. varég (varang, varjág) testõrsége volt, a magyar királyi testõrséget az államalapítás után az a népelem alkothatta, amelynek Orosz és Varang. helyneveinkben maradt emléke. Ennek a csapattestnek jellegzetes fegyverzete volt a' rövid nyelû csatabárd, meg a pajzs és a lándzsa. A királyi seregben a páncélos had a számban kisebb, de harcászatilag legerõsebb törzset és a testõrséget adhatta. Ezek fegyverzete a király tulajdonát képezhette, és, mint Nagy Károly birodalmában és a bolgár cárságban, fegyverraktárakban a seregvezérek õrizetére volt bízva"
in detail:http://www.bgrg.sulinet.hu/tant/inf/verseny/Kecskemet/SAMANDOB/g34.htm
http://ww3.szentes.hu/honfoglalas/kaland/text61.htm
http://ww3.szentes.hu/honfoglalas/kaland/text64.htm
http://www.bgrg.sulinet.hu/tant/inf/verseny/Kecskemet/SAMANDOB/g03.htm
http://www.bgrg.sulinet.hu/tant/inf/verseny/Kecskemet/SAMANDOB/g11.htm

Of course I did not say that the székelys were fantasy people I merely said that Bopa'sescribtion is fantasyish...

Under Taksony right right after the age of adventuring a transition began from the all ligt cavalry of the early ages towards a more heavy form of cavalry, that's when the first eastern Viking household cavalry was hired. You can read an interesting article on the transition of the Magyar cavalry:
http://epa.oszk.hu/00000/00018/00016/03bszabo.htm


I hope after having read these we will reach the same conclusion...

[Csatadi]

This Forgus guy really knows some interesting links. You have surely right.

Forgus: the Székely thing was not adressed to you but to LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix.

I read somewhere In Hungary there were very few meadow and too much forest to a nomadic people. (If this is correct the earlier Avar people was very limited in their numbers.)
So I know it was neccessery changing the nomadic lifestyle. Maybe the old "horse archers" were simply massacred at Augsburg in 955.

Meneldil:
The custom of surnames came in only in the 13th century with the genera names. (This genera are not the same than the 7 Magyar genera.)

I am curious about the tech tree, names and everything about the theme. So Forgus please send it to me if possible. We can chat a lot but the thing is how they appear in the game.

[Forgus]

The problem I encounter is that I have quite creative ideasfor the tech trees, But right now I don'T know how far I can go... For example I think it would be cool to have pagan groves or places of the Old, giving them happiness bonuses, but after the conversion event they should provoke unrest, until destroyed...
Things like this...

[Rodion Romanovich]

Scripting could make it so that a conversion unlocking new units occurs when the leader becomes Christian. I think it's hard to make units disappear when the conversion takes place. Making the conversion occur approximately around the historically correct time seems possible. Changing buildings isn't entirely certain though. However, if you present the coolest and most historically accurate tech tree you could possibly think of, we'll try to find solution both to what we can do, and what so far has been considered impossible!

[Forgus]

Scripting could make it so that a conversion unlocking new units occurs when the leader becomes Christian. I think it's hard to make units disappear when the conversion takes place. Making the conversion occur approximately around the historically correct time seems possible. Changing buildings isn't entirely certain though. However, if you present the coolest and most historically accurate tech tree you could possibly think of, we'll try to find solution both to what we can do, and what so far has been considered impossible!
Deal!
I will have a lazy day at office tomorrow, so I'm quite positive that I can allocate some of my precious consultant time to the problem... ~:cool:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Thanks, we appreciate it a lot!

[Csatadi]

The Magyars in the beginning will start at Etelköz. It is not sure they will conquer Pannonia and the Alföld. Maybe they occupy the local region and build an empire there. I think a strong orient neighbour (the Pechenegs) is needed who want to conquer the starting Magyar cities.
How can you handle the Viking, Arab and Magyar raidings? With rebels or another way? :charge:

It is not sure the player want get Christianity. And he may choose the Orthodox kind alike than the Catholic religion! Can the faction get pop-up questions like ’Do you want to take Catholic Christianity?’ or ’Do you want to take Catholic Christianity?’.
Or after an event (Missionaries arrival) they may choose the new religion as a building (barack). But it is not a good solution because there can be old and new army type at the same time. Or they get two kind of missionaries in different times.
A Marius type army change would be the best solution.

This problem come up at every pagan people even they get IRL the Christianity or not.

[skeletor]

The Magyars in the beginning will start at Etelköz. It is not sure they will conquer Pannonia and the Alföld. Maybe they occupy the local region and build an empire there. I think a strong orient neighbour (the Pechenegs) is needed who want to conquer the starting Magyar cities.
How can you handle the Viking, Arab and Magyar raidings? With rebels or another way? :charge:

It is not sure the player want get Christianity. And he may choose the Orthodox kind alike than the Catholic religion! Can the faction get pop-up questions like ’Do you want to take Catholic Christianity?’ or ’Do you want to take Catholic Christianity?’.
Or after an event (Missionaries arrival) they may choose the new religion as a building (barack). But it is not a good solution because there can be old and new army type at the same time. Or they get two kind of missionaries in different times.
A Marius type army change would be the best solution.

This problem come up at every pagan people even they get IRL the Christianity or not.

For this, i think it's best to wait for BI to come out. We don't know the exact nature of the features it brings, but CA has announced that the player should be able to choose between diffrent religous ways.

Im' not sure how. It might be through certain buildings (like the diffrent shrines in RTW) or through influential persons (like MTW) or some new way..

-Skel-

[Lovasìjász]

If you guys need help about magyar units and the history, let me know. i'm hungarian and I know a few things that might be helpful.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@HorseArcher: Some constructive criticism on the current magyar tech tree could always be helpful ~:)

[edyzmedieval]

When will the units be Magyar and Khazar units be finished?!

[Rodion Romanovich]

Work just started on them. How long can you wait at the most? If you need them fast I'll try to speed up the process.

[MagnosAkos]

Great!
Im a magyar, and finally il be able to play my nation! ~:cheers: Im so curious to see how, good a job you guys did. Im sure u did well.
( Hope you put in the Famous Hungarian Bow "Magyar Visszacsapo Ij")
It matches the strenght of the English long bow

[edyzmedieval]

Don't rush them man....

Let them do good skins. ~:)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Great!
Im a magyar, and finally il be able to play my nation! ~:cheers: Im so curious to see how, good a job you guys did. Im sure u did well.
( Hope you put in the Famous Hungarian Bow "Magyar Visszacsapo Ij")
It matches the strenght of the English long bow

Nice to see that our mod is appreciated ~D

@Edyz: ok, no problem

[MagnosAkos]

I hate to be demanding and be like a child but, YOU JUST CANT LEAVE OUT the MAGYAR Horse Archer, who had their tactic of fake retreat and firing arrow back onto the enemy accuratly. THats where the saying comes from.
GOD SAVE THOUS SOULS FROM THE MAGYAR ARROWS. Eventually Otto the Great really tricked us at Augsburg thats when the adventures toi the WEST ended.
Also a very nice touch would be to add King Laszlo (Saint) who ruled Hungary from 1071 to 1095. He was called the Flower of the Knights. He was said to be a tall man with the look of the lion on the battlefield but he was humble in real life. He won numerous battles and occupied Croatia which was united with us for like 850 yrs. I think he was a true knight but chivlary didnt came until XII century if im right. He was such a great warrior that his men loved him and he alwayz led them on front. ( the pope set him as the leader of the first crusade!! But his great heart gave up before the crusade came) My nationalist pride is takijng me away I know, but still I am so proud to have had such a great king even if he ruled 900 yrs ago, his soul is still with us.
P.S: Every Hungarian knight said the oath over Laszlo's tomb.

[Csatadi]

Ok. Good boy. Relax.

[ScionTheWorm]

:hide:

why are you telling us not to leave out the horse archer? have you taken a look at the tech tree? I think there are 7 different mounted archers there.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@MagnosAkos: Yeah, there are light pre-Christian horse archers, medium pre-Christian horse archers, light post-Christian horse archers and medium post-Christian horse archers, and multiple varietes of some of them... Rest assured, the magyars will definitely use horse archers en masse in this mod...

[edyzmedieval]

How's the progress on the units?! ~:)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Actually I don't know exactly, but when more magyar units come, they'll come in a whole bunch at the same time ~:)

[Csatadi]

Forgus,
I see many heavy armored soldiers in many army in the early mods. If the early Magyars were only light cavalry how they were able to win that many war against these armies? What do you think?
Leo the Wise (or Constantin) wrote the Magyars fight with bow, sword, lance and wear leather armour. Were that reflex bows such powerful? Or what else? The Kopjások you made was able to defeat the heavy armored enemy? The enemy was very little in numbers?
As we know, the incursions against the western countries and Byzantium were mostly successful.
And another interesting question: some source from historians say the sabres were expensive only the richest warriors had them. In the findings the 12% of the warriors had one. But maybe it was a sign of rank similar to the number of the arrows they give to dead warriors. I started to think it was and if every faction is able to stand up swordsmen why the Magyars not?


Here is another Magyar warrior to the skinner(s). http://birbin.tar.hu/vikings/harcos.jpg

[Lovasìjász]

I found an excellent link for more magyar "horsearcher" stuff:

http://lovasijasz.kayzee.sk/default.asp

good luck if you don't know hungarian, but just click around on the left to see various items. I'm pretty sure many nomadic nations had a similar equipment...

[Csatadi]

Leo VI the Wise wrote about the Magyars (digest about military power) in his work Tactica.
The year is about 900.
He titled them as Turks (the Magyars appear under many names in the souces).

The organization and deployment of the Turks less or not differs than the Bulgars.
The people stand under the rule of one person. They are nomad people.
Their armaments are sword, leather armour, bow and lance. In the battle most of them carry two type of weapons they bear a lance on their shoulders and keep a bow in their hands and use them as necessity.
Being pursued they get the advantage with their bows.
Not only they wear weapons but also the breast of their horses are covered with iron or felt.
They practise the horse archery a lot.
They dont make camps like the Romans but the tribes and generas live separately. They herd their horses in the summer and winter.
They have dense outposts against ambushes.
They stand up in thick fighting lines.
The missile combat, ambush, encirclement, false retrait and reversal, and scattered formations what they like the best.
When they put to rout their foes they pursue them harshly. Unlike the Romans [Eastern Roman Empire] and the other people they do not care about anything until they crush the enemy using every means.

[edyzmedieval]

Hey my friends!!

How are the Magyars and Khazars going?!

[Csatadi]

Horse colors
The nomad people used the colors of the horses to differentiate their units. The leaders were able to identify the different troops easily on the battlefield. The first mention of this custom is from the time of the Huns.
The nomad people who should be represented are Bulgarians, Khazars, Magyars, Kabars, but also Pechenegs, Uzes, Cumans, Avars, Alans, Burtas.

I think it would be very good to apply this custom in the game, too. First of all to the nomad people but not restricted to them. E.g.:

Horse archers – bay (chestnut) (brown horses with black mane)

http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12508265.jpg
http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12508264.jpg

Lancers – Grey (a certain dye)

http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12448586.jpg
http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12448407.jpg

Generals – White (grey to the experts). The white color was aristocratic between the eastern people. In the Gesta Hungarorum the Magyar leader sent always white horses as gifts. In the written sources the Magyars sacrificed only white horses.

http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12448225.jpg
http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12448343.jpg

Some unique unit can get other colors:

Siculs (later Székelys) piebald – historical fact they used such horses

http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12449312.jpg
http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/12449313.jpg

cream (beautiful colored horse):

http://img.tar.hu/horseangel/size2/14400187.jpg

etc.

The steppen people used the taki, Equus caballus. Very important, this horses were smaller than the western ones. These pictures presents both tarpan and taki horses. I cannot see any difference. The main thing is they are different than the european horses – see the pictures above.

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/dxendopar/images/animalimages/equine.gif
http://www.ultimateungulate.com/Images/Equus_caballus/E_caballus3.jpg
http://www.tallinnzoo.ee/pildid/przewalski_hobune.jpg
http://pantransit.reptiles.org/images/1998-09-27/clyde3.jpg
http://galeon.hispavista.com/caballospastoreo/img/Tarpan.jpg
http://www.belarusguide.com/nature1/tarpan.jpg
http://ania.kosz.webpark.pl/rasy/tarpan.jpg
http://www.chez.com/goodelie/races/tarpan/tarpan1.jpg
http://www.horsedirectory.com.au/horseresources/horsesofworld/images/przevalski.gif
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/tanya_dewey/przewalski.jpg/medium.jpg

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hey my friends!!

How are the Magyars and Khazars going?!

Going well, but unfortunately I haven't got any screenshots to show at the moment. We've been a little lazy during Christmas but are starting up again now. How is B:TW progressing? ~:cheers:

[ScionTheWorm]

I think that's a great idea Csatadi (even though we would have to do that anyway, but not neccessarily with "correct" colors).

[Csatadi]

My selection is arbitrary.
Only the nomad generals and the Székelys are important.
In the reality colors could change people to people fixing by unit type is only to help the player. There historical info says only there were different colored unit.

[ScionTheWorm]

but there ain't no alternative to having the same color for all people in the same unit, so it has to be that way anyway

[Rodion Romanovich]

I agree to your selection for the magyars, but will build out on it a little:

I think black and white horses were - and are - less common in Europe so brown sounds good for the most numerous units IMO - for instance the horse archers for the magyars, and sergeants/medium cavalry of British and Frankish units. Arab horses were of very high quality and obviously easiest available to Abbassids, but I think some more prestiguous cav units of the European factions could have black horses too. White horses were also uncommon and should be used only by European prestiguous and rare units. Al-Andalus should have fewer black arab horses and more brown horses than the Abbassids, even for the berber and later Almoravid units. For simplicity we could skip the cow-patterned horses IMO. Even though they exist/existed they wouldn't look good or realistic to form an entire unit of them, but it would have looked good if RTW had allowed us to put 3 or 5 of them in a unit (without necessarily forcing us to make them officers/musicians and placing them on the side of the unit).

[Csatadi]

I think black and white horses were - and are - less common in Europe so brown sounds good for the most numerous units
Yes, bay seems to me a general horse color, too. Do you think to set it as the color of the lancers?


I think some more prestiguous cav units of the European factions could have black horses too.
The color of the Satan? :laugh4:


White horses were also uncommon and should be used only by European prestiguous and rare units.
The western generals can ride other colored horses.
The steppen generals arent very numerous in number.


For simplicity we could skip the cow-patterned horses IMO. Even though they exist/existed they wouldn't look good or realistic to form an entire unit of them
Why? This is fun! And never seen in ANY other mod.
Maybe our skinner(s) like the idea. This would be their work isnt it?
Scion? Skeletor? Others?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, the cow-patterned horses could perhaps be used by the Szekely... Good enough?

I change my opinion - the European factions shouldn't use black, but instead white or grey horses for rare units.

For brown color I guess we can use several different brown ones if we like, some lighter and some darker varieties. Which to use for lancers I don't know, but for magyars and other steppe factions brown of some kind should probably be used for lancers too, as they had quite a lot of lancers as well.

[edyzmedieval]

BTW is really good at the moment. 1 or 2 more modellers/skinners and we've completed our team. If we could add 1 or 2 coders to do the stuff, then we're perfect. ~D

Recruited 2 new skinners, and Darth Vader arranged to make us some special formations. ~D

How is AOVAF?!

Waiting for the models.... ~D

[ScionTheWorm]

uh... nice... charming

[kisbruska]

Hi Bopa the Magyar!

Maybe I could help you, to have the unit names more sense. Because they don't have meaning now.
Néptörzs Magyar. means "tribe hungarian" (-magyar törzs- would be better-
Néptörzs Khabars- kabar néptörzs

To Second Rung.

Magyars ból a Alföld. -no sense -it is somithing like "the Plain from magyars\hungarians

Nyugatra Avar. - means: To west avar (or "Go to west avar!")

Nagy Székely. -this means "Large (or Huge) Székely" - noble Székely- "Székely nemes" sounds better, (if you have thought of nobles)

To Third Rung.

Lovasság ból a Fejedelem. -sensless "Fejedelmi kíséret" is the appropriate expression
Lovasság ból a Alföld. - meaningless "the Plain from horsmen"
To Fourth Rung

Sorry, I don't have more time, but if you are interested in the correction, i could continue it. :2thumbsup:

[kisbruska]

My suggestion is not up-to-date, sorry about that.

[edyzmedieval]

Any progress on these guys?! :book:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Not much yet I'm afraid

[LaCroix]

please download a copy of a good, but old hungarian book from my website:
"50 rajz a honfoglalokrol"

http://www.lc-modellbau.at/pics (it is 47mb big)

a lots of drawings, based only on the grave findings, so no armor represented.

But there are some good pictures of horse gear and so on...

[Ultras DVSC]

Some pics for palissa:

http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/thumb/060313/../060310/figura012_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg (http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/view/060313/../060310/figura012_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg)
Hungarian conqueror of the 9th century.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/thumb/060313/../060310/szent_istv_n_test_re_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg (http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/view/060313/../060310/szent_istv_n_test_re_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg)
Member of the bodyguard of our state-founder king, St. Stephen I.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/thumb/060313/../060310/koppany_lovas2_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.gif (http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/view/060313/../060310/koppany_lovas2_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.gif)
http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/thumb/060313/honfoglal__lovas_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg (http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/view/060313/honfoglal__lovas_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg)
http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/thumb/060313/../060310/lovas_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg (http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/view/060313/../060310/lovas_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg)

Warriors of the magyar cavalry about the 1st millenium.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/thumb/060313/../060310/visszacsap___j_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.gif (http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/view/060313/../060310/visszacsap___j_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.gif)
The famous magyar reflexbow.

I hope, that you'll able to use them up! ~;)

[Forgus]

The shield of the second bloke is totally bogus. The double cross as the symbol of the Hungarian state is first appears in 1190AD, and the triple hill at the base of the cross came into use under Stephan V, in the late 13th century. Sorry.

[Forgus]

please download a copy of a good, but old hungarian book from my website:
"50 rajz a honfoglalokrol"

http://www.lc-modellbau.at/pics (it is 47mb big)

a lots of drawings, based only on the grave findings, so no armor represented.

But there are some good pictures of horse gear and so on...

Yeah, László's work is still the most authenic source. It was drawn by an acheologist scolar - best composition if you care for historical accuracy.

[Forgus]

Forgus,
I see many heavy armored soldiers in many army in the early mods. If the early Magyars were only light cavalry how they were able to win that many war against these armies? What do you think?
Leo the Wise (or Constantin) wrote the Magyars fight with bow, sword, lance and wear leather armour. Were that reflex bows such powerful? Or what else? The Kopjások you made was able to defeat the heavy armored enemy? The enemy was very little in numbers?
As we know, the incursions against the western countries and Byzantium were mostly successful.
And another interesting question: some source from historians say the sabres were expensive only the richest warriors had them. In the findings the 12% of the warriors had one. But maybe it was a sign of rank similar to the number of the arrows they give to dead warriors. I started to think it was and if every faction is able to stand up swordsmen why the Magyars not?


Here is another Magyar warrior to the skinner(s). http://birbin.tar.hu/vikings/harcos.jpg

Basicly early Hungarians used hit and run techniques, great organizational discipline like the Mongols later. An usual battle was like this: both armies stand up, light skirmishers harass the enemy. The main body feints attacks, distracts the enemy. Sooner or later the enemy's heavy cavalry attacks, already weakened. After a few salvo of arrows the Magyars pretend to flee, the slower heavy cavalry persues, but ranks are loosened. The Magyars weaken the enemy by firing backwords. When the pursuers lose steam the Magyars suddenly counterattack, and the tired, disorganized heavy cavalry man run for it's life but have litle chance. Afterwords perhaps there is infantry to be dealt with, but that unless they have large numbers of archers should not be a problem.
Basicly all lost battles were results of bad terrain; nearby rivers or marshes, where the heavy cavalry manacen to reach the Magyars in good order, and when it came to melee, the Magyars were no match for the iron clad ritters.

Swordsmen fight on foot, while early Magyars had no foot units. Besides it would be a mistake to make a sword cavalry unit since - as you said -they were expensive, and they were only an emergency weapon, since they avoided melee as a rule, and even then the koplyások are the more likely candidates to fight. That is why Magyars cannot have swordsmen.

Of course it changes after christianity.