10th anniversary

[Franconicus]

In 1995 the German Bundeswehr started their first military attack after WW2. For 50 years their politics only based on diplomacy.
So, is this a reason to celebrate?

[Kagemusha]

What was that attack anyway?

[CBR]

How can you call it an attack? IIRC The German army sent troops to Croatia as part of the UN mission which were the first time German troops deployed outside their border since WW2.

IMO thats good as Germany finally is part of the world community like the rest of us.


CBR

[Louis VI the Fat]

So, is this a reason to celebrate?Yes. Germany has long since rehabilitated itself. :bow:

It has rehabilitated itself by being a rocksteady, responsible democracy. And supplying troops for peace-keeping missions is one of the things that being a responsible democracy is about.

This time, German troops moved into the Balkan not in a quest for Lebensraum, but to bring peace and stability.

There's nothing to be afraid of. The ghost of a German Europe has died, a European Germany lives. Quite a reason to celebrate and a great moment for all of democratic Europe.

[sharrukin]

Are we talking about the 1995 ethnic cleansing in the Krajina region, that Germany supported or something else?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I don't know.

I'm talking about this (http://www.germany-info.org/relaunch/politics/speeches/120695.html) and this (http://www.germany-un.org/peace/keeping/participation.html).

Did Germany mess up in the Krajina region or something? (serious question, no irony)

[sharrukin]

I don't know.

I'm talking about this (http://www.germany-info.org/relaunch/politics/speeches/120695.html) and this (http://www.germany-un.org/peace/keeping/participation.html).

Did Germany mess up in the Krajina region or something? (serious question, no irony)

Yeah, in late 1995 they and the US supported the Croatian Krajina offensive in which between 170,000 to 200,000 Serbs were ethnically cleansed from the region. Not something to celebrate IMO, but it seems the thread is referring to the overseas deployment of German forces. The use of German troops overseas is a good development as I see it, but I think they, and in fact all of us, should be more careful in who and what we support.

The angels of this world, often turn out to be not quite so innocent.

[CBR]

IIRC that offensive was also one of the main reasons the Bosnian Serbs finally caved in and accepted a peace settlement and thereby stopped the whole civil war.


CBR

[sharrukin]

IIRC that offensive was also one of the main reasons the Bosnian Serbs finally caved in and accepted a peace settlement and thereby stopped the whole civil war.
CBR

Carpet bombing Belgrade with nerve gas would have worked too!

[PanzerJaeger]

There is nothing about the Bundeswehr or its use worth celebrating.

[Franconicus]

Why? The Bundeswehr won the Cold War. The Bundeswehr was a very strong army with the goal to defend the country, the constitution and peace. They met all targets! Without being a threat for other countries!!
The means to solve conflicts were always political and economical. German diplomacy was never as loud as the American, but very effective. Think about it!

[CBR]

Think about it!

Yes but the current Bundeswehr doesn't have any glorious Tiger tanks, hasn't done any blitzkriegs, no sexy SS uniforms and no Prussian military aristocracy ~:rolleyes:


CBR

[Franconicus]

We have Leopards, much better ~;)

[Kaiser of Arabia]

There is nothing about the Bundeswehr or its use worth celebrating.
They have cool jackets though.
I bought one lol. ~:)

[Franconicus]

~;) I bet you did!

Back to the war 10 years ago. As far as I know the operation was carries out by NATO, not by the UN. All Yogoslavia operations creditable, neither for the Europeans nor for the US. They did not play as team, they did not respect the rules. I guess this was one root for the differences between Europe and the US in the current war.

[Al Khalifah]

Yes but the current Bundeswehr doesn't have any glorious Tiger tanks, hasn't done any blitzkriegs, no sexy SS uniforms and no Prussian military aristocracy
They haven't invaded any countries they said they wouldn't yet either.

On a serious note though, it is good to see that Germany is once again starting to participate in international military efforts. Germany is far too large a country politically, economically and population wise to play no part.

[PanzerJaeger]

Why? The Bundeswehr won the Cold War. The Bundeswehr was a very strong army with the goal to defend the country, the constitution and peace. They met all targets! Without being a threat for other countries!!
The means to solve conflicts were always political and economical. German diplomacy was never as loud as the American, but very effective. Think about it!

The Bundeswehr removed many traditions that were long standing in the German military. That Prussian aristocracy that CBR mocked produced some of the best generals in history.

[Franconicus]

They haven't invaded any countries they said they wouldn't yet either.

On a serious note though, it is good to see that Germany is once again starting to participate in international military efforts. Germany is far too large a country politically, economically and population wise to play no part.
Why?
1. Germany was busy guarding the iron curtain - from the two sides. The Bundeswehr alone had 500,000 men in arms.
2. German restriction gave a lot of opportunities on the diplomacy. While USA, GB and France threatened with their military Germany was the broker. Everybody trusted Germany because we were not aggressive and not imperialistic at all. Look at Iran. US and Europe play the 'good cop / bad cop'.
Today Germany is almost completely restricted in supporting US military actions. I believe we could help more if we would rely less on our military.

[Franconicus]

The Bundeswehr removed many traditions that were long standing in the German military. That Prussian aristocracy that CBR mocked produced some of the best generals in history.
It was the US that banned Prussia and the General Stuff. ~:)
But the Bundeswehr always managed to fulfill her tasks. To me it was always an excellent result.

[Al Khalifah]

So you would rather Germany was like Costa Rica and had no armed forces?

[Franconicus]

So you would rather Germany was like Costa Rica and had no armed forces?
Concerning military - yes. We do not need it. All our neighbors are friends!
Concerning economy, Germany is still a powerful nation. And so our foreign policy could be quiet strong.
Hey men, we are no longer in the 19th or 20th century. The name of the game is no longer 'worldwide domination'.
Most of the problems could and should be solved by diplomatic means. In the few cases were this is impossible there has to be a multinational org.

[Kagemusha]

What is this Bundeshwer bashin?I think Bundeshwer is a well trained and highly equipped force.It hasnt been used much abroad simply because German government doesnt enjoy a popular support for those kind of missions. :bow:

[Al Khalifah]

Hey men, we are no longer in the 19th or 20th century. The name of the game is no longer 'worldwide domination'.
Most of the problems could and should be solved by diplomatic means. In the few cases were this is impossible there has to be a multinational org.
I would for the most part agree, but I don't think we have matured enough yet as a people to go burying all our guns just yet. I think some armed deterant will be necessary for some time to come. I don't think there will be any wars between EU members in the foreseable future and so an EU army might be a credible solution, provided we can iron out the logistical difficulties such an organisation would present.

We can't solve all problems diplomatically, so we will have to maintain a standing army, unless you would rather we had a conscript army every time an international emergency occured.


In the few cases were this is impossible there has to be a multinational org.
This is an international org ~:cheers:

[Louis VI the Fat]

2. German restriction gave a lot of opportunities on the diplomacy. While USA, GB and France threatened with their military Germany was the broker. Everybody trusted Germany because we were not aggressive and not imperialistic at all. Look at Iran. US and Europe play the 'good cop / bad cop'.
Today Germany is almost completely restricted in supporting US military actions. I believe we could help more if we would rely less on our military.Absolutely. German diplomacy by chequebook has proven to be very effective indeed.


So you would rather Germany was like Costa Rica and had no armed forces?


Concerning military - yes. We do not need it. All our neighbors are friends!That's what we want you to believe.
We're just waiting for you guys to drop your guard completely... :sneaky:

[Franconicus]

This is an international org ~:cheers:
You think we should arm ourselfs. Great idea!
:charge: :duel: :knight: :army: :rifle:
The moderators will be the General stuff and Panzer the commander.:army:
~:cheers:

[Meneldil]

I don't think there will be any wars between EU members in the foreseable future and so an EU army might be a credible solution, provided we can iron out the logistical difficulties such an organisation would present.



Blame the french for rejecting the European Defence Community treaty.

[Franconicus]

Do not worry, this wil come. And it was France that offered Germany a place under his nuclear umbrella. ~:cheers:

What worries me is that the French started to post as soon as I said I would like to abolish our army.
:thinking2:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Do not worry, this wil come. And it was France that offered Germany a place under his nuclear umbrella. ~:cheers:

What worries me is that the French started to post as soon as I said I would like to abolish our army.
:thinking2:No need to worry, mate! Really! :beam: :beam:

Just relax and keep on talking about abolishing your army... :yes:

[Al Khalifah]

Blame the french for rejecting the European Defence Community treaty.
Yes but there are real issues that would need to be addressed before creating a single EU army. For example the vast range of hardware used by the various nations, different C&C structures and varied pay rates and living costs across the EU. Oh and the small matter of there being no common language.

[CBR]

That Prussian aristocracy that CBR mocked produced some of the best generals in history.

Actually the only one I was mocking was you ~:)

You should have seen Red Harvest and Simon Appleton choke on their coffee when I quoted Moltke about his opinion on the American Civil War ~D ~:grouphug:


CBR

[Meneldil]

Yes but there are real issues that would need to be addressed before creating a single EU army. For example the vast range of hardware used by the various nations, different C&C structures and varied pay rates and living costs across the EU. Oh and the small matter of there being no common language.


When the EDC was proposed, all the concerned nations (Benelux, Germany, Italy and France) used more or less the same military equipement, had more or less the same living costs.

Members of the Euro Parliament are actually paid on a national basis (ie : Italians euro deputies earn much more money french or pole ones), but an european wage is going to be created soon. The same could have been done for an Euro army.

As for the language, this is one of the big problem of the EU. But I'm sure our great european leaders could have solved it easily ~D

[PanzerJaeger]

Actually the only one I was mocking was you

Oh well thats ok.. Happens every day. ~;)

[Kagemusha]

Today i was at Finish Armys website and stumbled upon a comparison of European Armys.Did you guys know that in matter of fact German army is bigger then Great Britains apart Navy.

GB:
active soldiers 212 660
reserves 272 550
Main Battle Tanks 543
other avf´s 5228

airforce:
fighters 470
attack helicopters 195

Germany:
active soldiers 284 500
reserves 358 650
Main Battle Tanks 2398
other avf´s 5768

airforce:
fighters 507
attack helicopters 221

This was suprise to me. :bow:

[Marcellus]

Today i was at Finish Armys website and stumbled upon a comparison of European Armys.Did you guys know that in matter of fact German army is bigger then Great Britains apart Navy.

GB:
active soldiers 212 660
reserves 272 550
Main Battle Tanks 543
other avf´s 5228

airforce:
fighters 470
attack helicopters 195

Germany:
active soldiers 284 500
reserves 358 650
Main Battle Tanks 2398
other avf´s 5768

airforce:
fighters 507
attack helicopters 221

This was suprise to me. :bow:

Could you put a link to this website please? It's just that Wikipedia claims that the total number of personel in the whole of the German armed forces is 250000.

I think that these figures are quite out of date. German military expenditure has fallen dramatically since the Cold War. I can't see how Germany could have a military bigger than Britain's when last year it spent less tha half the money Briatin spent on the military.

[Kagemusha]

Its all in Finnish.But heres a www.mil.fi (http://www.mil.fi/ruotuvaki/)
Just click the EU flag on the right and choose a country.Its not very specified,but im sure its accurate.
About the spending.Its obvious that a country in war uses lot moore then a country in peace. :bow:

[Marcellus]

These figures just don't seem to match the ones I have (on wikipedia).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_forces

British army: 112700 regular personnel
40000+ territorial army
386 main battle tanks

Royal Air Force: 942 aircraft (including helicopters)
53,400 personnel

Royal Navy:

Ballistic Missile Submarines 4
Fleet Submarines 11
Aircraft Carriers 3
Helicopter Carrier 1
Destroyers 11
Frigates 20
Patrol boats 26
Amphibious Assault ships 2
Minesweepers 22
Survey vessels 4

210 aircraft
40900 personnel


The German Bundeswehr - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr

Apparently the German armed forces have 250,000 military personnel. 185,000 of these seem to be in the army. I couldn't find any more details.

I am not particularly surprised that the German army is larger than the British army: Germany has conscription and a larger population to draw from. But I would be fairly surprised is the Luftwaffe is larger than the RAF.


As to expenditure - the Iraq war is estimated to cost the UK £5 billion by the end of 2005. This puts the cost at an average of less than £2 billion a year, out of a total budget of £32.6 billion (FY2004-05). Even with the war, British military expenditure is far greater than German (FY2004-05: 24.06 billion Euros).

[Kagemusha]

Very intresting.I would like to now from where Finnish Army has drawn these figures.About defence budget,it seems that the Nuclear weapons and the large Navy cost pretty much,landforces especially reserves are cheaper.Its intresting that my country has the biggest reserve in whole EU.About airforce there is also a article that states that while Germans have more assault aircrafts,those are pretty outdated.262 Tornados, 159 Phantom II fighters and only 180 eurofighters are going to replace them.Compered to British 254 tornados,62 Jaguars and 79 Harriers.About the budget another reason could be that different countries count different expenditures in their defence budgets. :bow:

[CBR]

Army
Personnel: 185,100 (as of October 2003 )(including 56,650 conscripts). To be 189,800 by 2006 under the reform programme.

Equipment:
Adapted CFE Treaty Ceilings: 852 MBT, 1,152 ACV (of which 1,152 AIFV and HACV), 2,255 artillery pieces.
MBT: 852 LEOPARD 2/2A5/2A6 (see notes).
Armoured reconnaissance: 409 SPz-2 LUCHS, 114 TPZ-1 (NBC), 130 WIESEL
AIFV and APC: 1,152 MARDER, 105 M-113, 348 FUCHS TPZ-1, 147 APCV-2 DINGO.
Tank destroyers (missile):, 210 WIESEL with TOW
Artillery: 24 M101 105mm, 288 M-109 155mm SP, 185 PzH-2000 155mm SP; 394 120mm mortars (SP).
MRLS: 132 MLRS
ATGW: 702 MILAN, 354 TOW
AA guns: 170 20mm Laf, 147 GEPARD 35mm
SAM: 120 ROLAND 2, 50 OZELOT.


http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C002D670C/CurrentBaseLink/N25TLJJ9058RHAHEN
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C002D670C/CurrentBaseLink/N25TPG6C941RHAHDE


CBR

[Kagemusha]

Thanks CBR. :bow:
Thats a source that has credibility.But it doesnt show reserves and their equipment.Im pretty sure that the figure from mil.fi means all the active soldiers in German armed forces including HQ,Army,Navy and airforce.Or then i might as well be wrong. ~:)

[Marcellus]

That figure of 185,100 soldiers agrees with the 185,000 figure I found, suggesting that the total number of personnel in the German armed forces is around 250,000 (see my previous post), which is roughly the same as the UK total number of personnel. I think you might be right Kagemusha, Germany has a more troops, but Britain better equipment and better logistics (and so a greater ability to apply power internationally).

[sharrukin]

That figure of 185,100 soldiers agrees with the 185,000 figure I found, suggesting that the total number of personnel in the German armed forces is around 250,000 (see my previous post), which is roughly the same as the UK total number of personnel. I think you might be right Kagemusha, Germany has a more troops, but Britain better equipment and better logistics (and so a greater ability to apply power internationally).

But that not including the Territorialheer (territorial army) of 390,000 while the UK has IIRC less than 60,000 territorials. The German army on mobilization will be around 500,000 as well as independent Territorialheer units for home defence.

Britains reserve elements have traditionaly been smaller.

[Slyspy]

The Bundeswehr removed many traditions that were long standing in the German military. That Prussian aristocracy that CBR mocked produced some of the best generals in history.

We have a Third Reich fanboy! Unfair perhaps, but those traditions led dirctly to a military that though often resentful of the Nazi regime was nevertheless utterly subservient to it. There is no glory there my friend. If you want to go further back in time then you will find little that is better in the Prussian military system either.

[Franconicus]

Why is everybody surprised about the strength of the Bundeswehr?

To Britain: It was and is tradition that the navy and air force is strong while the army is quite weak - at least at peace. This makes sense for an island nation. Also traditionally the British mailitary is aggresive. That means it should protect British interests all over the world. So there ability to strike global with all the logistics is superbe.


To Germany: Germany was and is a continental country with a continental army. Fleet is minor. They just have to protect the coast (not much to do there) and the supply lines (not very important). German airforce is quite strong - even though not all units are uptodate. But they have some nice special forces there. The new Luftwaffe was made to stop a Soviet attack, so quantity and training are good. Same to the German army. It was made to stop the Soviets. Nothing more to add, I guess. Since cold war there was no real enemy and so the forces are not very modern any more.
They never had the task to operate global. German policy is very defensive. So the army does not have the capability for big operations abroad.
Germany has compulsory military service. So only few soldiers are professionals. That means the army is quite cheap and there is a big reserve. To my experience the 'non-professionals' are highly motivated and good trained.

The two countries show the potential of a European army. The British and the German have different strengths. Together they would be a brilliant combination!