Missing Numidia

[Cronos Impera]

Why is Numidia missing?
After all, it played a major role in the Punic Wars, leading to the defeat of Tsorin. Can EB create only three powerful playable roman factions ( The Optimati << Sulla>>, The Populares << Marius>>, The People of Rome << Sergius Catalina\ Gracchus>> )
For Numidia I propose the following.

The historical background
Numidia suffers from being one of history's extra's, only being noticed when they are dragged into the spotlight by the star. This explains why they are ignored until the second Punic war by most reference works. The following is therefore a brief and biased history of Numidia and Mauretania from 215 BC to 700 AD. 1000 years in 100 seconds.

Numidia at the start of the Second Punic War (219-202 BC) was part of the Carthaginian empire. The Romans tried to persuade them to change sides including sending a mission to train their infantry in 213 BC. They failed initially but in 206 BC the king of east Numidia Masinissa became an ally of Rome. Syphax king of eastern Numidia stayed allied to Carthage. When the Second Punic war came to an end the Romans rewarded their ally by making him king of all Numidia. Later expansion by Numidia gave the Romans the excuse they needed to start the third Punic war (149-146 BC).

During the power struggle over who would rule Numidia in 118 BC some Italians were murdered. This lead to Rome declaring war upon the winner of the struggle Jugurtha. This lasted until 111 BC when peace was made, however while visiting Rome to explain his actions Jugurtha had a rival murdered and this caused the war to resume. The war lasted until 105 BC after Jugurtha had been betrayed by his father-in-law and handed over to the Romans.

During the Roman civil wars of the first century BC the King Juba I sided with Pompey. Since he had backed the loosing side Numidia lost its independence and became a Roman province in 46 BC. Caesar did have some support in Numidia from Bogud, and from King Bocchus of Mauretania who received the western part of Numidia as a reward.

At the death of King Bocchis in 33 BC Mauretania was bequeathed to Rome. Augustus set up Juba II, the son of the last Numidian king, as the client ruler in 25 BC. (Trivia: Juba II married Cleopatra Selene the daughter of Mark Anthony and Cleopatra.)

Around this time the Third Augustan Legion moved to North Africa which it permanently garrisoned for the next three hundred years. The less important Mauretania was defended by 13,000 auxiliaries. A frontier of 1500 miles from the Atlantic to the Libyan desert was held by some 30,000 troops.

Constant frontier and internal revolts continued until 6 AD. The period 17 AD - 24 AD saw the revolt of Tacfarinas in Numidia. Fighting flared up again in AD 23 when Juba I died and Mauretania did not take to the rule of his son Ptolemy. The Moors united in rebellion with Tacfarinas's Musulammii tribe. The rebellion ended with Tacfarinas's defeat and death during a surprise dawn attack on his camp at Auzea (Aumale) by Publius Dolabella.
In 40 AD Ptolemy was murdered on orders of the emperor Caligula (his cousin). He left no heir and Mauretania was annexed to the Roman Empire as the two provinces - Mauretania Caesariensis and Mauretania Tingitana. A rebellion lead by Aedemon a freedman loyal to Ptolemy followed which took four years to put down.

Just think EB fans - Numidia could be the final roman family. It certainly received orders from Rome. Just imagine- an eastern faction in the Brutii's place.
May Numidia be saved: it deserves it

[caesar44]

The Numidia case - asked them before , got the limitation answer
About the poll - your question is problematic , if the mod begins in 280 or 270 bce . then you don't have Caesar , Crasus , Pompey , Optimates , Populares etc'...

[jerby]

yeah, pompei tec is out fo the question.

but i see what you mean. Due to hard-coding issues. the 3 Roman factions from EB are ALWAYS alied with each other. so you could possibly make 2 roman factions ( 3 with 'senate') and 1 numidian. it all sounds nice. but wouldnt be fair. this way rome gains a 'powerful' allie wich cnt be brokan. until the civil war. so strangely enough rome and numidia will always be allied until teh civil war...would give some strange issues.

altough the idea of making one of teh hard-coded-Roman-famalies an allie with rome is nice. altough I'd then vote Sarmatian's or something else on roman land.

[Copperhaired Berserker!]

I think, you should have a roman faction, then have esucoans adn samnite(terrible spellng, sorry) It would work. Until the civil war.

[jerby]

you meen ethruscans and samnites. would be nice. but ethruscans weent really warriors afaik. afaik.

[Cronos Impera]

yeah, pompei tec is out fo the question.

but i see what you mean. Due to hard-coding issues. the 3 Roman factions from EB are ALWAYS alied with each other. so you could possibly make 2 roman factions ( 3 with 'senate') and 1 numidian. it all sounds nice. but wouldnt be fair. this way rome gains a 'powerful' allie wich cnt be brokan. until the civil war. so strangely enough rome and numidia will always be allied until teh civil war...would give some strange issues.

altough the idea of making one of teh hard-coded-Roman-famalies an allie with rome is nice. altough I'd then vote Sarmatian's or something else on roman land.
Rome's client states ware opportunistic and profited from roman civil wars. Burebista's Dacia and Cleopatra's Egypt prove this. The teritories gained by Numidia ensured that Numidia stayed loyal to it's roman patrons. They are a good alternative to the Scipii faction. They're history proves they are worthy of being part of EB in the roman camp that is.
As I know, when civil war breaks up, a roman faction can remain alliedwith another one.

Cronos save Numidia!

[Copperhaired Berserker!]

you meen ethruscans and samnites. would be nice. but ethruscans weent really warriors afaik. afaik.
Yeah, but remember. RTW about changing history.

[Steppe Merc]

Numida wasn't nearly as important as Baktria, which is why it was removed.
Also all of it's important history was near the end of the game. During most of the time period, it was controlled mainly by Carthage, and wasn't a big player at all.

[Sfwartir]

I wasn't aware of that the "faction slots" for the Roman factions had to be allied. This of course makes my suggestions wishful thinking. Anyways -

My suggestion:
1. S.P.Q.R
2. "The Rest of the Romans"
3. The Mauryan Empire (in India)
4. Pergamon, Illyria, Masilia or the Samnites (can't decide, each would be interesting in their own way)

[Cronos Impera]

Instead of playing identical roman factions it would be more fun playing Rome and it's client states or to keep a nice civil war....... Rome, two roman political factions and a client state, won't you agree? And the first client state of Rome was Numidia.

[Steppe Merc]

But not at 270 BC. It's silly to assume that Rome will win, much less aquire any client states when you are playing as a different faction.

[Cronos Impera]

Rome won it's battles - our existence as we are proves it. The roman maniple was a winner design. When two equal roman factions wage war on eachother wins the faction with most provinces and armies. The roman fammilies ware equally matched.
A roman movie could star - The People of Rome
- The Optimati Gentry
- The Populares dictators
- The Opportunistic ally that tries to pick the scraps ( Numidia)

[Steppe Merc]

Cronos, the point is is that Rome in game will not always follow the same path, if it even survives, as in real life. Numidia could stay under control of Carthage, there is nothing saying that they will necassarily rebel and join the Romans. Rome could get conquered by Gaul, or by the Greeks, or whatever.
Besides, we have all of our factions done, and we are unlikely to change any of the set up.

[Cronos Impera]

Then could you tell me how you plan to organize the four " roman" factions?

[Mikeus Caesar]

And just to add on to all your stuff about not enough Slots and more important fractions, in RTW, Numidia is useless anyway.

[Big_John]

Then could you tell me how you plan to organize the four " roman" factions?as khelvan has said, they are keeping that a secret until the open beta.

[jerby]

Yeah, but remember. RTW about changing history.
yeah, thats true. but ethruscans never were a military state.

even if numida was in teh time period. would it be fair(game balancing) to give Rome an unconditional allie (face it, civil war happens way at the end) wich it cant attack and share its fog of war. would be unbalancing.

but i definatly hope for Samnites and stuff. doesnt have to be a faction. just some/more regional units

[khelvan]

Not to worry, in one form or another you will see Samnite, Apulian, Campanian, and other units.

[caesar44]

Besides, we have all of our factions done, and we are unlikely to change any of the set up.

Told you...the thread is interesting but...pointless ~D

[khelvan]

In any case, Numidia would be one of the last factions we added, even if we had more slots to fill. We can more easily simulate her involvement in world affairs as rebels/unique units than as a faction. A faction would have her creating ahistorical relationships and boundaries.

[caesar44]

But........
All of North Africa is left for 1 (one , I) , that is , 1 faction (not including Egypt) , seems to me no good :embarassed: :embarassed:
The balance......

[Steppe Merc]

Is irrelevant. Game balance comes after history.

[khelvan]

Carthage was never balanced by Numidia. Numidia was a bump in the road for Carthage. The balance, as it should be, is provided by factions such as Ptolemaic Egypt and Rome.

[caesar44]

Is irrelevant. Game balance comes after history.

Steppe , if history , than have Numidia... ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) it was a kingdom , not a dream

[caesar44]

Carthage was never balanced by Numidia. Numidia was a bump in the road for Carthage. The balance, as it should be, is provided by factions such as Ptolemaic Egypt and Rome.

No nice , no nice , a bump in the road ? Mighty Carthage never took it !!! even before the roman invasion to N. Africa

[khelvan]

Steppe , if history , than have Numidia... ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) it was a kingdom , not a dreamNot an independent, expansionist one. At one time it was almost completely subjugated by Carthage. In another it was divided, both fighting for Rome against Carthage and for Carthage against Rome.

Its historical contribution is most readily seen in its resistance against both Rome and Carthage, and its alliances with both. At various times, of course, and sometimes at the very same time. Since we can and will have unique units for the area available to Rome and Carthage, among others, who take the correct provinces, and we can make the rebels in the area very strong to drive out invaders, this more readily shows the Numidian involvement in the Punic wars and other historical moments than an independent, expansionist nation.

I have yet to see any argument backed with evidence, inside or out of the team, for representing Numidia as an independent, expansionist, nation-building group. We can show Numidia's impact on the region and on the Punic Wars through other methods.

[caesar44]

From wikipedia

Numidia was an ancient African Berber kingdom and later a Roman province on the northern coast of Africa between the province of Africa (where Tunisia is now) and the province of Mauretania (which is now the western part of Algeria's coastal area). What was Numidia then is now the eastern part of Algeria's coast.

The region that constituted Numidia in Roman usage, became more specific and more constricted with time. Beginning as the territory west of Carthage in the 3rd century BCE, when Numidia was applied by Polybius and other historians to the whole Maghreb as far as the river Mulucha (Muluya), about 100 miles west of Oran, the Numidians were conceived of as two great tribal groups, the Massyli in eastern Numidia, and the Massaesyli in the west. At the time of the Second Punic War the eastern tribes took the side of the Romans whereas the Massaesyli supported the Carthaginians. At the end of the war the victorious Romans gave all of Numidia to Massinissa (died 148 BCE) of the Massaesyli, whose territory extended from Mauretania to the boundary of the Carthaginian territory, and also southeast as far as Cyrenaica, so that Numidia entirely surrounded Carthage (Appian, Punica, 106) except towards the sea

the choice is of course - yours !

[Steppe Merc]

Caesar, that quote explains exactly why it won't be a faction:

Beginning as the territory west of Carthage in the 3rd century BCE
Numidia was controlled by Carthage at the beggining of the game.

[khelvan]

I have yet to see any argument backed with evidence, inside or out of the team, for representing Numidia as an independent, expansionist, nation-building group. We can show Numidia's impact on the region and on the Punic Wars through other methods.Shall I repeat myself?

What leader took the Numidians to new heights, and attempted to build a nation? Which areas did he conquer? Which peoples did he subject, or add to his rule?

[Ranika]

This choice was already made; I wish we'd stop coming back to it every so often. There is no Numidia in EB. That's it. That probably sounds a lot more harsh than I intend, but, there simply isn't. We decided on it long ago, and it's not being changed. It took us a long time to come to our faction decisions; they weren't knee-jerk reactions, we examined a lot of things before deciding what we should use.

[caesar44]

Caesar, that quote explains exactly why it won't be a faction:

Numidia was controlled by Carthage at the beggining of the game.


Steppe , "West of Carthage"

[caesar44]

This choice was already made; I wish we'd stop coming back to it every so often. There is no Numidia in EB. That's it. That probably sounds a lot more harsh than I intend, but, there simply isn't. We decided on it long ago, and it's not being changed. It took us a long time to come to our faction decisions; they weren't knee-jerk reactions, we examined a lot of things before deciding what we should use.

I know , said it , but you know , this is a forum ~:cheers:

[khelvan]

Many people were found across large areas. By itself this does not make for a very convincing faction addition.

[Xanthippus of Sparta]

What leader took the Numidians to new heights, and attempted to build a nation? Which areas did he conquer? Which peoples did he subject, or add to his rule?

The same questions could just as easily be asked about the Britons.


....If the timeline of EB is the same as RTW.

[khelvan]

We have evidence the Casse attempted to build a nation, at the very least, and were not subjugated until later. Throughout the timeline the Casse became assimilators. That cannot be said for Numidia.