IRA Disarm

[_Martyr_]

The IRA have just released a statement in which they apparently totally and utterly disarm, completely stop all criminal activity and from now on will pursue entirely peaceful and legal activities. Ive only heard some extracts on local radio, I havent found the full document yet.


Edit: Here is the statement in full.



The leadership of Oglaigh na hEireann has formally ordered an end to the armed campaign.

This will take effect from 4pm [1600 BST] this afternoon.

All IRA units have been ordered to dump arms.

All Volunteers have been instructed to assist the development of purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means.

Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever.

The IRA leadership has also authorised our representative to engage with the IICD [Independent International Commission on Decommissioning] to complete the process to verifiably put its arms beyond use in a way which will further enhance public confidence and to conclude this as quickly as possible.

We have invited two independent witnesses, from the Protestant and Catholic churches, to testify to this.

The Army Council took these decisions following an unprecedented internal discussion and consultation process with IRA units and Volunteers.

We appreciate the honest and forthright way in which the consultation process was carried out and the depth and content of the submissions.

We are proud of the comradely way in which this truly historic discussion was conducted. The outcome of our consultations show very strong support among IRA Volunteers for the Sinn Fein peace strategy.

There is also widespread concern about the failure of the two governments and the unionists to fully engage in the peace process.

This has created real difficulties. The overwhelming majority of people in Ireland fully support this process.

They and friends of Irish unity throughout the world want to see the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement.

Notwithstanding these difficulties our decisions have been taken to advance our republican and democratic objectives, including our goal of a united Ireland.

We believe there is now an alternative way to achieve this and to end British rule in our country. It is the responsibility of all Volunteers to show leadership, determination and courage.

We are very mindful of the sacrifices of our patriot dead, those who went to jail, Volunteers, their families and the wider republican base.

We reiterate our view that the armed struggle was entirely legitimate. We are conscious that many people suffered in the conflict.

There is a compelling imperative on all sides to build a just and lasting peace. The issue of the defence of nationalist and republican communities has been raised with us.

There is a responsibility on society to ensure that there is no re-occurrence of the pogroms of 1969 and the early 1970s.

There is also a universal responsibility to tackle sectarianism in all its forms.

The IRA is fully committed to the goals of Irish unity and independence and to building the Republic outlined in the 1916 Proclamation.

We call for maximum unity and effort by Irish republicans everywhere. We are confident that by working together Irish republicans can achieve our objectives.

Every Volunteer is aware of the import of the decisions we have taken and all Oglaigh are compelled to fully comply with these orders.

There is now an unprecedented opportunity to utilise the considerable energy and goodwill which there is for the peace process.

This comprehensive series of unparalleled initiatives is our contribution to this and to the continued endeavours to bring about independence and unity for the people of Ireland.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

If this is true, i hope Protestant paramilitaries would do the same.

[_Martyr_]

The IRA is to stand down. A statement issued by the privisionals within the last half hour says they have formally ordered an end to their armed campaign from 4 o'clock this afternoon. All IRA units have also been ordered to dump their arms and assist with the development of purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means. The statement adds that IRA Volunteers have been told not engage in any other activities whatsoever. The IRA says its remains fully committed to the goals of Irish unity and independence. So far there has been no reaction from Dublin or London. However the Taoiseach is expected to hold a news briefing at Government buildings around 1 o'clock. The Sinn Fein leadership will give its reaction at a city centre press conference later this afternoon. from newstalk.

This is all I could get so far. All the major news services are taking their time on this.

[_Martyr_]

Sky News (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1190536,00.html)

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4720863.stm)

[Tribesman]

Good news if it happens , but this bit.....
The leadership said it will invite one witness each from the Protestant and Catholic churches to witness the disarmament.
....looks like it will lead to a repeat of the blocking of disarmament that happened last time .

[Byzantine Prince]

Why doesn't the government ban religion. If I was Blair, that's what I would do. No religion, no fighting. Simple, no?

[_Martyr_]

Religion's got very little to do with it.

Tribesman, I agree, they should have gone all the way. But I think this differs from other times in that they are saying, "This is what we are going to do", as opposed to "This is what we are prepared to do".

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Why doesn't the government ban religion. If I was Blair, that's what I would do. No religion, no fighting. Simple, no?
Actually, if you did that EVERYONE would be blowing London and Belfast up, not just the IRA and the Protestants.

[Al Khalifah]

Excellent news for the future of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Perhaps now we can look forward to reasonable peaceful negotiations without the threat of violence looming over at all times.

[Grey_Fox]

Meh, they've said this before. It might work, and I hope it does, but I have a feeling that some of the splinter groups will just go full-time in organised crime, instead of part-time.

And Bertie has confirmed (again) that the McCabe killers arn't going to be released early ~:cheers:

[JAG]

It is very good news - I just hope we can sort out the final details of the peace and political plan.

[Marcellus]

What seems so good about this announcement is that it is very definitive, and not like previous announcements, which were very much 'if' statements. The language that they use, that the IRA would be purely political, seems very much that the IRA is serious about this. But we'll just have to wait and see.

[PanzerJaeger]

What do you British and Irishmen think of the movie "Patriot Games", particularly the depiction of the Irish conflict?

[Redleg]

What seems so good about this announcement is that it is very definitive, and not like previous announcements, which were very much 'if' statements. The language that they use, that the IRA would be purely political, seems very much that the IRA is serious about this. But we'll just have to wait and see.

I also hope this is what actually happens concerning the IRA and their disarmentment.

Thanks for the good news on this Martyr :bow:

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Patriot Games is a crock of shit to put it bluntly ~D The depiction of the conflict is fairly silly. There are much better films, see a film called Nothing Personal, a much better film imo

[Grey_Fox]

Both the book and the movie "Patriot Games" are, although entertaining, a load of bollocks in terms of the portrayal of the conflict, as BKB said. Same goes for the other Hollywood movies that involve or mention the IRA.

[PanzerJaeger]

Oh.. so a normal hollywood interpretation of things then?

It was a good movie though.. :yes:

[Al Khalifah]

Same goes for the other Hollywood movies that involve or mention the IRA.
Same goes for the other Hollywood movies that any mention historical events or indeed many present day events.

[bmolsson]

With the current development, they have realized that it's not a good idea to be a terrorist.... ~;)

[Idaho]

Part of me is happy that they have laid down their arms; another part of me is sad that they might fade into the background.

I don't care too much about the IRA or Ireland, but my family comes from a long line of IRA supporters. ~:handball:

Well thanks a lot for their contributions over the years - they really helped :furious3:

[Tribesman]

....looks like it will lead to a repeat of the blocking of disarmament that happened last time .
Further to my earlier post , it looks like the same crap is going to happen again . On top of his usual "No, Never , No , Not ever , No Surrender , Scrap the peace deal" crap Paisley has once again said that he will not accept this as an act of decommissioning .
Also he is having trouble understanding this bit ...
Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever.
....he wants further clarification of "any other activities whatsoever" that seems very easy to understand to me , so what is his problem ?

[ShadesPanther]

Well If the IRA do what they say they will do everyone will be very happy.

but. I am skeptical about it. I will wait for proof about it first before I celebrate about it though.

Partiot Games' depiction of it is just so silly it's funny.

And I do hope the Loyallist paramilitaries do follow because the current conflict serves noones purposes.

[Tribesman]

Partiot Games' depiction of it is just so silly it's funny.
What did you think of the depiction in "Ressurection Man" Shades ?

[Ronin]

But one cannot deny Patriot Games was a good book. I'm a sucker for that whole Jack Ryan series.

specially the ones with a lot of John Kelly /Mr. Clark in there ~:)

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

To somehow make a hero like figure out of Lennie Murphy, the Leader of the Shankill Butchers confuses me. The gang were complete cowards and killed Catholics( and Protestants) in the most hideous and brutal ways possible and this film seems to glamorize the violence.


Nothing Personal is much better imo and i'd rather read Martin Dillons books to be honest than watch RM

[ShadesPanther]

Partiot Games' depiction of it is just so silly it's funny.
What did you think of the depiction in "Ressurection Man" Shades ?

I haven't seen it. I'll have to rent it out and try to see it.

[Ronin]

Ah, yeah. I'm just gonna asume you've read "Without Remorse" then. Very good book. :book:

you assume correctly ....great book...and one of my favourites in the series next to october and bear/dragon.

haven´t read the last one(rabbit) yet tough.

[Tribesman]

Thats strange Blind King , I didn't think it "glamourised" the murderers at all .
I thought it showed them to be brutal murderers .

[ShadesPanther]

That would be the only one I have not read, as well. :book: Apparently it's a prequel between Patriot Games and Hunt for Red October, according to Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy#Fiction

It's quite a good book not his best but good enough. The large amount of British bashing is very annoying for me though.

IIRC it's just after Patriot Games (a few months maybe)

[ShadesWolf]

The Cost of peace in Ulster

3,637 killed
45,000 wounded
15,300 bombs
36,000 shootings
30,000 terrorism convictions
300,000 troops deployed since 1969
£100bn+ estimated financual cost

I hope they spend the £26 million wisely

[PanzerJaeger]

3,637 killed
45,000 wounded
15,300 bombs
36,000 shootings

Wow.. the IRA sucked.

15k bombs and 36k shootings and only 3.6k killed?

Thats not meant to be insulting to anyone, its just an observation. It seems you should be able to kill a lot more people with that many bombs, not to mention the shootings.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Why doesn't the government ban religion. If I was Blair, that's what I would do. No religion, no fighting. Simple, no?

If that happened in my country I would support attacks. And I would donate money to the organization that did it. As long as they tried not to hit innocents.


And I thought you liberals were for freedom and equality.... Oh i see only freedoms you like :dizzy2:

[econ21]

Wow.. the IRA sucked.

15k bombs and 36k shootings and only 3.6k killed?



A lot of the bombings followed warnings (that allowed evacuations) and the shootings may have included non-lethal punishments (knee-caping). However, the IRA could be extremely lethal when they wanted to - e.g. on the day they killed Airey Neave and then 18 soldiers. And don't forget, they very nearly killed Mrs Thatcher and much of her Cabinet.

One distinctive feature of the recent Islamic terrorism has been its greater lethality compared to older variants. This is partly because of differences in the means employed - suicide bombings seem particularly lethal. But I suspect it is also because of the differences in desired ends - the new wave of terrorists want to kill more (either because they place less value on the lives of their victims or because you need to escalate the violence to get publicity).

[scooter_the_shooter]

Part of the peace agreement should be that the UK get the !@#$ out of ireland. My family has some IRA (one got kicked out of Ireland because of that)supporters and from they tell me they just want the UK to get the hell out of their country.

Thats their side and seems valid. I want to here the UK people's opinion before I decide which side I like.

(the people who liked the IRA were not members just supporters)

[ShadesWolf]

Wow.. the IRA sucked.

15k bombs and 36k shootings and only 3.6k killed?

Thats not meant to be insulting to anyone, its just an observation. It seems you should be able to kill a lot more people with that many bombs, not to mention the shootings.

erm this is also about terror and intimidation, ie shooting people in the kneecaps, blowing up police stations, breaking into housing and pulling the father out infront of his wife and children and then executing him infront of them. Its about blowing up pubs in Birmingham, bombing shopping centres in Manchester, and mortor attacks on downing street.

These are the same people who tried to blow up the government, and now they have decided peace is the answer.

Im sorry if I dont sound very excited about this, but I have lived through terrorism all my life, friends of mine have been killed in the army, and at Christmas I always kept away from the cities......

But of course all of this changed with 9/11 because the IRA lost their biggest financial backer.

[ShadesWolf]

Part of the peace agreement should be that the UK get the !@#$ out of ireland. My family has some IRA (one got kicked out of Ireland because of that)supporters and from they tell me they just want the UK to get the hell out of their country.

Thats their side and seems valid. I want to here the UK people's opinion before I decide which side I like.

(the people who liked the IRA were not members just supporters)

If you Yanks bother to check. N.Ireland doesn not have a Catholic majority, you all go on about your Irish background, come on guys get it right, your CATHOLIC irish background.

Catholics are not a majority in N.Ireland. if you ask the NONE CATHOLIC they are part of Britain and wish to remain.

So why dont all the Catholics/ republicians get out of our country. We dont want you. But of course that would be being an extremist wouldnt it.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/map10c.jpg

40.26 % Catholic
45.56 % Protestant
00.30 % other
13.88 % Not Stated

[PanzerJaeger]

A lot of the bombings followed warnings (that allowed evacuations) and the shootings may have included non-lethal punishments (knee-caping). However, the IRA could be extremely lethal when they wanted to - e.g. on the day they killed Airey Neave and then 18 soldiers. And don't forget, they very nearly killed Mrs Thatcher and much of her Cabinet.

Ahh thanks for the explanation, it makes sense now. :bow:

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

That map is nearly fifteen years old Shades, the Catholic population in Ulster has rose hugely since then.

The most professional and deadly IRA brigade was the South Armagh ASU. They were responsible for the Warren Point bombing which with two bomb blasts killed 18 British soldiers.

[Grey_Fox]

BKB is right, the Catholics have a higher birth rate than the Protestants, and either are or will be in the majority.

A major misperception amongst foreigners is that the whole Ulster thing is Catholics vs. Protestants when it is in fact Nationalists vs Loyalists. It's just that Catholics are generally Nationalist, while Protestants are generally Loyalist.

People in the US who support the IRA (believing they are crusaders fighting the evil British) should look at the facts. The IRA are a bunch of lawless savages that kill on a whim (such as Carthy), that incessently lie about everything (their denial of the Northern Bank Raid, their denial of murdering Carthy), that call killing pregnant women and children in car bombings "collateral damage" (Omagh, Manchester, Birmingham, etc), and deal drugs (or at the very least get a cut of the profits as tax). Real noble. Hope they burn in hell.

And yes, I am from the republic, and I am a Catholic.

[Al Khalifah]

People in the US who support the IRA (believing they are crusaders fighting the evil British) should look at the facts.
People in the US who support the IRA are no worse than those who support Al Qaeda. Northern Ireland is roughly even distribution of Catholic and Protestant, but religion should not matter.


Part of the peace agreement should be that the UK get the !@#$ out of ireland. My family has some IRA (one got kicked out of Ireland because of that)supporters and from they tell me they just want the UK to get the hell out of their country.
So because a bunch of terrorists and terrorism supporters want something we should just do what they want? There are just as many people in Ireland who want the UK to stay in Ireland.

[Grey_Fox]

People in the US who support the IRA are no worse than those who support Al Qaeda.

No worse, or no better?

[Tribesman]

BKB is right, the Catholics have a higher birth rate than the Protestants, and either are or will be in the majority.
And if they hadn't of been forced out of the counties for decades they probably would be a majority already .
Grey Fox you mention the Belfast pub murder , isn't it strange that a pair of thieving junkies getting into a bar fight can have such a huge political impact .
RSF have called the announcement a "sell out" and the UDA have said they will not reciprocate the IRAs moves

[ShadesWolf]

That map is nearly fifteen years old Shades, the Catholic population in Ulster has rose hugely since then.



Its was the only map I could find BkB, but it was just to show to our American Friends that all in NI dont want to become part of Eire. The percentages are from the 2001 census.

I have no problem with a united Eire if that is what the province wants, but I dont believe they do, and if they did I would hope that the British Govn, of the time, would accept any immigrates that wanted to come over to live in Britain.

[ShadesPanther]

The most recent census (2001)
http://www.nicensus2001.gov.uk/nica/browser/profile.jsp?profile=Cultural&mainLevel=CountryProfile&mainArea=Northern+Ireland&mainText=&mainTextExplicitMatch=null&compLevel=CountryProfile&compArea=Northern+Ireland&compText=&compTextExplicitMatch=null

Total pop: 1,685,267
Catholic 737,412
Protestant 895,377
other 6,569
none 45,909

= 53.13% Protestant
and 43.76% catholic


Although as stated before not all catholics are nationalist and protestants unionist but the majority are so you can see the pattern. I could get the election results from a few months ago to prove my point further.


EDIT: And yes the Americans that funded the IRA finally got a taste of terrorisim in 2001. I wonder how they feel about it now.

[PanzerJaeger]

And yes the Americans that funded the IRA finally got a taste of terrorisim in 2001. I wonder how they feel about it now.

Ted Kennedy and his friends still passively support it.. hell, they're doing their best to get them freed down in Cuba. :no:

[ShadesWolf]

thanks for the stats panther, what happened to your flag ?

[ShadesPanther]

I may have got rid of it. I think the link went down. I'll try to get it up again ~:)

[Grey_Fox]

Grey Fox you mention the Belfast pub murder , isn't it strange that a pair of thieving junkies getting into a bar fight can have such a huge political impact.

Was Carthy a thieving junkie? Or the fine upstanding members of Sinn Fein and the IRA that beat and stabbed him to death?

Carthy was not killed in a bar fight. His friend had a bottle broken over his head by some of the IRA fellows who thought Carthy was making faces at some of their other members or something (according to his friends, he was being abusive to the TV because his team was losing or playing poorly or something, and the Sinn Fein people were between him and the TV). Carthy was bringing his friend home when the IRA lads caught up to them, according to a Prime Time special.

As for the political impact, public opinion started turning against P O'Neill with the murder of Jerry McCabe and the Omagh bombing. It was all cumulative, and the murder of Carthy was the straw that broke the camel's back.

[Tribesman]

Grey Fox , Did I call Sinn Fein or the IRA fine upstanding people ? ~:confused:

Now , how long in prison has the man who had the bottle broken over his head and was stabbed recently been sentanced to for his criminal activities he committed to feed his drug habit ? Wasn't his friend mccarthy facing similar charges?

[Grey_Fox]

Tribesman, you got me wrong there. The "fine upstanding people" part of post had nothing whatsoever to do with you, I was just throwing it in for the benefit of the fine upstanding Americans that support murder.

I know only about the events of Carthy's murder, and from what I do know, drugs had nothing to do with it.

[Crazed Rabbit]

If you Yanks bother to check. N.Ireland doesn not have a Catholic majority, you all go on about your Irish background, come on guys get it right, your CATHOLIC irish background.

Catholics are not a majority in N.Ireland. if you ask the NONE CATHOLIC they are part of Britain and wish to remain.

So why dont all the Catholics/ republicians get out of our country. We dont want you. But of course that would be being an extremist wouldnt it.

Hmm, I wonder if there was a Protestant majority before the English invaded and brutalised the Irish Catholics for 800 years? Protestants probably became a higher percentage of the population after the potato famine, when the English took food from the starving Irish, didn't they?

It's like another country becomes 'yours' when you invade, kill off the natives, and transplant your people, since now a majority of the people living there support the invader?

Crazed Rabbit

[_Martyr_]

It's like another country becomes 'yours' when you invade, kill off the natives, and transplant your people, since now a majority of the people living there support the invader?

So you'll be moving off that Indian land soon then? ~;)


When the Enlish (technically the Normans...) first invaded Ireland, there was no such thing as Protestantism.

[Crazed Rabbit]

So you'll be moving off that Indian land soon then?

They don't want us to leave; who'd go to their casinos?


When the Enlish (technically the Normans...) first invaded Ireland, there was no such thing as Protestantism.

True, but you just have to replace Protestant with English.

Crazed Rabbit

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

talking of Indians and English plantations; I was always intrigued by the way English plantations in the Americas and in Ireland followed similar patterns and that the same extreme solutions for the Indian problem were proposed for the Irish problem. This is 16th/17th century colonisation I'm talking about.

[ShadesWolf]

Hmm, I wonder if there was a Protestant majority before the English invaded and brutalised the Irish Catholics for 800 years? Protestants probably became a higher percentage of the population after the potato famine, when the English took food from the starving Irish, didn't they?

It's like another country becomes 'yours' when you invade, kill off the natives, and transplant your people, since now a majority of the people living there support the invader?

Crazed Rabbit

Erm so that would make it approx 1200 AD. At which time England was part of the Norman/ Plantagenet empire. Which if you did not know was French. Also England was Catholic until approx 1532.

I will give u a short history lesson, as you have none of your own before 1492. In 1166 the king of Leinster (An IRISH King) asked for help against his enemies, so the Normans sent a group of knights to help. Two years later, King Henry II led a major expedition and recieved vows of loyalty from the King of Leinster. By 1183 the last of the High Kings had been forced to give up his thrown. Henry made his son Prince John, Lord of Ireland.

We will now skip forward a few hundred years, in 1315 a Scottish army (Also Catholic) landed in Country Antrim at the invite of another local chieftain, the Scots were led by Edward Bruce, brother of the Scottish King Robert. Within a year they invaded Meath and Edward was crowned King of Ireland. By 1400 English power had shrunk in Ireland to small area around Dublin.

It was not until 1603 that England ruled the whole of Ireland. We will now jump forward to the Civil War. Despite the defeat of the Royalists in England, support of teh monarchy was still active in Ireland and Scotland (Please note that England and Scotland are now one and ruled by a Scottish king)

This period was our only attempt at any other form of Governement except monarchy. After harsh fighting both Scotland and Ireland became unwillingly part of a united Britain under the leadership of Cromwell.

We will skip forward another few hundred years, Between 1845 and 1849 a famine struck Ireland, killing an estimated one million people from staravation or disease. Many thousands emigrated across the atlantic to the united states. In 1841 just over eight million people lived in Ireland, about half were dependant on potatoes, in 1845 a fungus struck, Ireland was unusually cold and wet and it quickly swept across the country. Many people found that their potatoes has rotted. PM Robert Peel ordered £100,000 worth of corn to be imported from the USA, and it was sold cheaply in Ireland, helping to prevent starvation. When the harvest failed in 1846, the famine worsened, it was not until 1849 that the conditions slowly began to improve.

By 1912 a third home rule bill was introduced in the British parliament, but was interrupted by WW1. (Please note that over 80 Irish PM also sat in the British parliament) In 1918, the republican movement won 73 seats in the general election, and declared Ireland a republic. The 26 countries of southern Irelandbecame the Irish Free State. The Irish Protestants who were a majority in Ulster opposed home rule and stayed as part of the union.

So if you want to talk about brutalised natives, lets talk about the USA shall we, I wont even discuss Vietnam, Iraq etc, lets talk about your home....


There were probably 10 million Indians north of present-day Mexico and they had been living here for quite some time. - taken from http://www.americanwest.com.

How many do you have now ? (3m - source http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus04trend.pdf#001) Did not Texas and your west coast belong to Mexico until you took it in the 19th century ? and you are lecturing us,

You know what they say, people in glass houses should not thrown stones.

[_Martyr_]

ShadesWolf I agree with you, but there is no point in whitewashing some of the wrongs that England committed against Ireland either. Like actively destroying our culture, language and religion for the last 500 years. Or how about Cromwell's rampage that left about one third of the population dead? Or desimating our vast forests. Or still exporting nearly all Irish grain, wheat and dairy products to England where a profit could be made during the Great Famine, while a million people starved. How about not letting us vote, become MPs or just about anything else if one was Catholic (Penal Laws)? Man, the list could go on and on. But the thing to remember is that noone alive today had anything to do with it. Its very literally history, and part of a greater and very brutal and violent European history that involved more wrongdoings than anyone can remember. If we were all to hold onto everything, no one would ever speak to anyone of a different nationality. Theres no point being too emotional about ancient events. ~:)

[ShadesWolf]

Martyr I agree, we, as a nation have done a lot of bad things, and yes 'government' would not repeal the corn laws because of profit, and I accept that is all in the past.

But I get a little annoyed when a Yank, who thinks his nation is whiter than white starts to lecture us on something he/ they know nothing about.

And then talks about invader and killing off the natives.

This thread should be about the current N.Ireland situation and how it might be sorted out, if both sides can be trusted.

[_Martyr_]

Yeah, I can totally see where you're coming from. If you look back, you can see I gave a similar reaction. Heres to 800 years of shite seemingly coming to an end! ~:cheers: ~:)

[Tribesman]

Heres to 800 years of shite seemingly coming to an end!
Hopefully ~:cheers: (sorry I cannot quite manage that thing called optimism)

Though , did anyone see yesterdays interview with the survivor of the "Miami Show Band massacre" ? With people with an attitude such as his there will always be hope . ~:cool:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

just about Indians again:
ShadesWolf you were asking how many Indians people know: I haven't yet had the chance to travel extensively in the U.S. but I know plenty of people with Indian family and I'm not even in a state that's well known for its Indian population.

There were probably 10 million Indians north of Mexico bak in the day:
there's 3 million in the U.S. according to the last census and a further million in Canada. That's not including eskimos (because they aren't viewed as being Amerind).

Ireland's population is still not at the same levels it was at before the famine.

Anyway, interesting info, not trying to start anything thought you may like to know.

[ShadesPanther]

The population at the time of the famine was about 8 million (which is overpopulated) Now If i remeber correctly is about 5 1/2 million (just over 4 million in ROI and 1.6 in Northern Ireland)

Also about the famine Queen Victoria gave money out of her own pocket to help the Irish and many people did as well (although some found a way to discriminate for instance soup kitchens only serving meat on Fridays)

EDIT: also found this survey that gives a rough indication of the amount of unionists and nationalists
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2004/Political_Attitudes/NIRELAND.html
according to it 59% and 22% respectivly
although an interesting point is to look at religions 24% of catholics are unionist compared to only 5% protestant nationalists

although i can't see how many people were asked and such

[Crazed Rabbit]

But I get a little annoyed when a Yank, who thinks his nation is whiter than white starts to lecture us on something he they know nothing about.

I've never said the USA is whiter than white. God knows we've done some bad things in the past. But mistreatment of the Indians pales in camparison to what the English did, and only lasted a few decades. And you can't blame the USA for all the decline in the Indian population, but rather the explorers who brought new diseases, which are responsible for a lot more.

My point was that it is somewhat absurd to claim Northern Ireland as your own, just because the English have, over the centuries, killed off the Irish.

Incidentally, you say I know nothing about it. What would you recommend to learn more about the history, then?

Crazed Rabbit

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

You know, it's like one of my Irish history lecturers said: Ireland at the time of the famine was overpopulated but now it's underpopulated (by N.W. European standards).

Also, Catholic unionists and protestant nationalists: I've met a few people(Catholics) from the republic who don't want a united Ireland because of the hastles of integrating the loyalist working class without serious problems flaring up.

[econ21]

My point was that it is somewhat absurd to claim Northern Ireland as your own, just because the English have, over the centuries, killed off the Irish.

Incidentally, you say I know nothing about it. What would you recommend to learn more about the history, then?

Crazed Rabbit

Perhaps the key point that outsiders don't understand is that most people on the mainland don't want to "claim" Northern Ireland as its own. [1] Maybe that's because the terrorists have been successful in making it too costly to hold on to, I don't know. But I also suspect there's a lack of empathy with the Unionist community, which can appear strident, traditionalist and narrow-minded. I suspect people on the British mainland would find more in common with the people of Eire rather than the Unionists.

The problem is not so much that the mainland wants to keep N. Ireland, but rather the majority of people there want to keep the union. It would have been possible to pull troops out, but then the Unionists would have successfully fought to control the province in a bitter civil war (unless Eire intervened). In the late 1960s, troops were originally moved in to try to "peace keep" and if anything protect the Catholics. That soon changed, of course, as the Catholics became alienated.

[1] That's now the official British government position, as the key concession it made in the Good Friday agreement was to say it had no "strategic interest" in the province - ie if the majority wants to leave the union, it can. The IRA signed up to this hoping the demographics would change the majority in their favour.

[Tribesman]

In the late 1960s, troops were originally moved in to try to "peace keep" and if anything protect the Catholics. That soon changed, of course, as the Catholics became alienated.
Aye , a primary lesson in how not to alienate the people you are supposed to be trying to help , instead turning lots of them into terrorists .
I wonder where that lesson could be applied today ~;)

The problem is not so much that the mainland wants to keep N. Ireland, but rather the majority of people there want to keep the union.
And the majority in the Republic wish that a great geographic divide could happen along the border and the whole six counties could just drift off around the ocean until they learned to live together or all killed each other .

[Slyspy]

Thats true.

I don't trust the IRA any more than I trust the UDF etc. Their politicians may say the words but the people on the ground are just criminal gangsters. Of course so are many of the politicians, but these days they wear suits. If the majority of NI wants to be part of Eire then so be it. At least then the Troubles and their legacy would belong to someone else. In the meantime we are stuck with them (the Troubles that is, not the Northern Irish themselves).