Ring of water ice on Mars raises hopes of finding life on red planet

[ShadesWolf]

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2005/07/29/nmars29.jpg

I thought all you people interested in space would find this of interest.

By Nic Fleming, Science Correspondent
Telegraph 29/07/2005




An impressive giant disc of water ice eight miles in diameter has been identified near the Martian north pole

It sits at the centre of an impact crater on Vastitas Borealis, a broad plain that covers much of the red planet's far northern latitudes.

Spectacular images of the phenomenon, captured by high-resolution cameras on board the Mars Express probe, were released by the European Space Agency yesterday.

The ice is present all year round as the temperature and atmospheric pressure are not high enough to allow it to melt.

One image shows faint traces of water ice also visible along the rim and walls of the crater. ESA scientists know it cannot be frozen carbon dioxide because the images were taken during the late Martian summer by which time all CO2 ice has evaporated. The unnamed crater is 24 miles in diameter and 1.3 miles deep.

The existence of water on Mars raises the prospect that life will one day be found on the planet and boosts plans to send manned missions.

Mars is covered with flood plains and deep gorges carved out by rivers and glaciers, however most of the water vanished billions of years ago.



So could somebody tell my why this is important, Is is something to do with creating oxygen, or just about having water their, so we dont have to transport it ?

[Sigurd]

They don't even have to bring food. They just have to remember bringing an ice drill and a jig (the fishing tool not the dance).

[CBR]

Well if there is water that means the chance of life on Mars is a lot higher. That alone could boost the interest in sending a manned mission to Mars.

But having water on Mars also means that one could make the fuel needed to fly back to earth and in that way lighten the load to send up.


CBR

[Al Khalifah]

A fascinating discovery by the Euorpean Space Agency.

[Abokasee]

i've ALWAYS beleived there is life on mars.....

i think they would slighty lower/higher tech than us.... and probaly VERY freindly....after all you can see some thing new then say:"TIME TO DIE" can you? ~D ....can you? ~:confused: ~:eek:

[Ja'chyra]

Scientists seem to think there must be water to sustain life, I've no idea where they get that idea ~:confused: , probably because we depend so much on the stuff.

Why do they feel the need to say water ice, I thought ice by definition was frozen water?

[PyrrhusofEpirus]

Hurrah!! ~:cheers:
*PyrrhusofEpirus suddenly feels that we are not alone in vast space!!*

[discovery1]

Scientists seem to think there must be water to sustain life, I've no idea where they get that idea ~:confused: , probably because we depend so much on the stuff.

Why do they feel the need to say water ice, I thought ice by definition was frozen water?

Water is very good at dissolving polar* molecules(I'm guessing most of the stuff that is useful for getting energy is polar, which would make sense since organics are so big) . And if they are dissolved I imagine they are easier to move around the body, even if it is only one cell. This right about right, anybody esp. Ichi?

Probably because frozen CO2 is often refered to as 'dry ice' maybe?

*means that one end of the molecule has a positive charge the other negative.

Oh, and ammonia will work too, just it doesn't excist in liquid form at most temps we work with.

[Lazul]

life on mars eh? bwhaha, how will the churches of our planet explain that!? ~;)

[Al Khalifah]

life on mars eh? bwhaha, how will the churches of our planet explain that!?
God created the Universe. Where in the Bible does it say that life was not created on planets other than Earth?

[Kagemusha]

Intresting looking picture.A glazier in the middle and huge crater around it.It looks like some entity has thrown a snowball at Mars. ~;)

[Viking]

Interesting, yes, but the best has yet to come: MARSIS- a radar aboard Mars Express that`s going to find out whether there still are liquid water on Mars.

Oh and soon a new Mars orbiter is on the wings:Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/main/index.html) This is a mission that I look much forward to.

[Red Harvest]

The odd thing about the image is that it almost looks like a subsurface release in the crater... I highly doubt that, and there is often a central spire in impact craters. As such it would provide a natural condensation point for water. Very interesting though.

Mars is fascinating to watch through a good scope (8" aperture and above) as it approaches opposition, because as you observe over a matter of hours you can watch the Martian weather as daily CO2/H2O clouds form and dissipate over the massive volcano peaks. (Apparently, the big volcanoes also show evidence of periods of glaciation over the past several thousands of years.) Over a matter of days/months you can see seasonal changes to the polar caps and even detect dust storms. The presence of water has long been known in the caps and the atmosphere, but the caps are primarily CO2.

[Lazul]

God created the Universe. Where in the Bible does it say that life was not created on planets other than Earth?

why did god not tell humanity about "aliens"? mehehe

[Ironside]

why did god not tell humanity about "aliens"? mehehe

They only argument that would be really damaging for the monothistic religions here would be is if very advanced aliens showed up, and the didn't have a simular monotheistic religion.

It ruins God/Allah/Jehova/etc. as the creator of universe and that humans is God's chosen people, but only both together, not as single arguments. Well, the second part isn't necciccery, but a simular religion would be used as proof on God's existance.

More on topic. The use of water is mostly for oxygen, when it comes to manned travels.

[Ja'chyra]

More on topic. The use of water is mostly for oxygen, when it comes to manned travels.

Yep, I get that part, but, it seems to me that allowing for the possibility of life only when there is water present is kind of short sighted, but then again what do I know I spend my day trying to make sure that people don't hurt themselves :dizzy2: ~:handball:

[Kagemusha]

why did god not tell humanity about "aliens"? mehehe

What if the "aliens" are god?I think if "aliens" would land to earth tomorrow,and stated that they are our gods.Most of the people wouldnt buy that,they would think its somekind of scheme.

[Ironside]

Yep, I get that part, but, it seems to me that allowing for the possibility of life only when there is water present is kind of short sighted, but then again what do I know I spend my day trying to make sure that people don't hurt themselves :dizzy2: ~:handball:

Well, we got one planet to study, and all life here needs water. Thus going from what we know, water is necessary for life as we know it. So the potential for life went from unfamiliar life, to unfamilliar life plus familliar life.

BTW water is a very special molecule, that's why it's so important.

[Big_John]

that's a nice pic, but water-ice has been known to be on mars for quite some time now. the martian polar caps are water ice, at least the cap cores are. (the co2 ablates during the martian summer, but the caps persist). heck, water ice has been found on the moon. they just wanted to hype their cool picture.

as others have pointed out, water, in any form, on mars excites these guys because they want to find life or past life on mars. a polar solvent (like water) is presumed to be necessary for the various cellular processes that constitute life. theoretically, non-water based life may be possible, but who knows?

[Ja'chyra]

That's what I'm commenting on:


a polar solvent (like water) is presumed to be necessary for the various cellular processes that constitute life

That's life as we understand it, limiting ourselves to what we know seems a bit shortsighted, to think that we know everything is arrogance in the extreme.

Anyway, it was just a thought. ~:cheers: Time for another vodka methinks.

[Red Harvest]

Water tends to go along with the carbon based life concept if I understand it. The basic building blocks tend to need a fluid with properties like water (polar, hydrogen bonding, etc.) Water has a very unusual combination of properties that make it well suited for stabilizing and sustaining climate and life forms.

Carbon based life (with a dependency on water) is not the only possibility of course, but the relative abundance of carbon and water make it the most likely to be found anywhere, and at least we have some idea how to look for it. However, we keep finding new variants on Earth that we didn't recognize before that do things once thought impossible. Carbon is a rather special atom because of the nature and variety of its bonding. There isn't a particularly large list of candidates to replace carbon as the basic building block if memory serves. I haven't really looked at much at this in the decades since high school, so I might be way off base.

[Big_John]

silicon is the next (only?) best candidate after carbon, iirc. and yeah, water and carbon go hand in hand, because most of the polar molecules for which a polar solvent is needed are hydrocarbons of one sort or another.

[BDC]

Without water you don't get enzymes that work. You don't need much water mind, but you need some. And of course without a solvent, nothing works anyway.

Carbon is needed because it can bond to itself, something very few other atoms can (maybe silicon too?).

Water is good for space missions because all you need is a nuclear reactor nearby for power and you have a plentiful supply of water (obviously), oxygen and fuel. Plus wherever there is water on Earth there is life...

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Don't count your aliens before they're found... ~;)

[bmolsson]

So Mars will be the next penal colony..... Soon they will have kangoroos as well.... ~;)

[_Martyr_]

Dont let any Bullfrogs out... or should I call them Choswoggles? ~;)

[Ironside]

Carbon is needed because it can bond to itself, something very few other atoms can (maybe silicon too?).


Carbon is used because it can bind to four different atoms, as can silicon. Single atoms cannot bind to more than that without massive "force".

Other possible(? only based on that they can bind to 3 atoms and is light atoms) molecules for the base of life is nitrogen, boron, aluminium and phosphorus. But you'll really need non-earthly conditions for several of these to work as life-based molecules.

[Samurai Waki]

I've read some pretty interesting stuff about the possibility of terraforming, especially where mars is concerned. Some Scientists think that if there is indeed enough water on Mars to sustain life, then it would be a good step to bring in Carbon Dioxide Generators... many...many of them built on the various ice spots, they would have to release enough Carbon Dioxide to be able to sustain an atmosphere, albeit a very thin one, then you bring in the pioneer plants, such as various lichens and moss found in High Mountains above tree lines and ones found in artic environments, this would create more Co2 leading up to a better warmer atmosphere, and eventual softening of the ice, then you could bring in light shrubs and grasses, they would have to take over, then you would have to bring in trees... and then they say you just have to play the waiting game for the next couple of years, introduce some insects (which are vital to ecology, and then wait long enough so that the atmosphere could sustain human life... Scientists speculate that this would probably be the best and most effective way, also it could take a long time... at least 100 years before humans could walk around with Oxygen support.

[_Martyr_]

100 years? I would have thought it would have taken a hell of a lot longer than that!?? Think of the quantities of gas we are talking about here. ~:confused:

[swirly_the_toilet_fish]

If you remember the ancient religions (now our myths) the people believed and worshipped entities in humanoid forms, but sometimes with different facial structures. They always lived "beyond" the skies or followed behind the setting sun as they dwelled in the place man could not reach, the sky.

Aliens could very well have been our old "gods" as most man-made structures attempted to either reach the sky, or develop a calendar based upon astrological bodies. Now, logically, why would man suddenly have developed interest in the skies all at similar points in history? :stars:


My apologies for pirating this thread. That thought should have its own. ~D

[Samurai Waki]

100 years? I would have thought it would have taken a hell of a lot longer than that!?? Think of the quantities of gas we are talking about here. ~:confused:

Well this is all speculation, but I believe by the time any sort of terraforming would begin Scientists have taken into account that Genetic Engineering would play a major role, especially very quick tree growth and then very long longetivity, so that whole forests could be raised in a matter of months or years.

[Azi Tohak]

So Mars will be the next penal colony..... Soon they will have kangoroos as well.... ~;)


Dont let any Bullfrogs out... or should I call them Choswoggles? ~;)

~D ~D Awesome guys. Just don't let the Brits get there first. We need to import some people who speak proper American, not 'English' or 'Australian' or 'Kiwi'. (I guess Canada is close...)


I've read some pretty interesting stuff about the possibility of terraforming, especially where mars is concerned. Some Scientists think that if there is indeed enough water on Mars to sustain life, then it would be a good step to bring in Carbon Dioxide Generators... many...many of them built on the various ice spots, they would have to release enough Carbon Dioxide to be able to sustain an atmosphere, albeit a very thin one, then you bring in the pioneer plants, such as various lichens and moss found in High Mountains above tree lines and ones found in artic environments, this would create more Co2 leading up to a better warmer atmosphere, and eventual softening of the ice, then you could bring in light shrubs and grasses, they would have to take over, then you would have to bring in trees... and then they say you just have to play the waiting game for the next couple of years, introduce some insects (which are vital to ecology, and then wait long enough so that the atmosphere could sustain human life... Scientists speculate that this would probably be the best and most effective way, also it could take a long time... at least 100 years before humans could walk around with Oxygen support.

But I have a question guys. I remember reading that the reason Mars is so desolate is that its core solidified and stopped spinning, which destroyed the magnetic belts that protect us. The solar winds promplty came down and bombarded the surface with nasty nasty radiation. Turns out it is not totally solid, but the lack of magnetic fields mean very bad things for any of our plans to get resorts on Mars:

http://www.geotimes.org/may03/NN_mars.html

And

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast31jan_1.htm

D'oh!

Sorry to rain on your parade guys :embarassed:

Unless we can re-heat the core, no condos on Mars.

Azi

[Papewaio]

With a bit of stem cell research cancer is a bygone thing so no worries about lack of the magnetic field... so that means the USA has essentially given Mars away to the EU and China. ~;)

Or one could just make the majority of the houses below ground and use Faraday screens near the surface... or that blessed H2O to help block radiation.

[bmolsson]

Maybe sombody passed by our planet a long time ago, found water and decided terraforming it a bit.... ;)