View Full Version : Faction re-emergence peculiarities
DensterNY
07-29-2005, 15:27
Here are a few strange things that I experienced about re-emergences in my campaign. I remember reading somewhere on the forum how when a faction re-emerges they return with an army whose size and quality is related to the occupying army on their home province.
In my Early game just getting under way I was in Toulouse with a stack and some change fighting a war there against the Italians when the French re-emerged. They came back with three FULL stacks of mounted sergeants, and militia sergeants... its ridiculous because they came back with the strongest force on the map. Presumable the surviving heir has been sneaking around gathering support and men for this day but damnit this many men?!?!? I mean if there were three full stacks of potentially such quality troops laying around then you'd figure my king, my garrison or governor would notice... of course this is a kind of glitch so I'm really just ranting... Hehe
In another situation I took over Portugal from Spain which we know is always a troublesome province. Now before you build your first fort there is a 100% chance of rebellion no matter what for all four years as its being built. So I saved the game and tried an experiment... I left a sufficiently large army there in anticipation of a rebellion and WHAM another humongous stack off ass kickers pop out of nowhere... so I reloaded and this time left an old beat up unit of Hobilars with perhaps 20 men and next year one measly unit of archers appear. So I beat them and being so heavily outnumbered I even get a command star for that general... Next year archers reappear with a unit of spearmen so I meet them with that same Hobilar group and also a unit of Urban Milita... again I get another star for my general.
I had two more years of rebellions until my fort was built but the whole thing is kinda stupid because I could build nothing in Portugal and raze the fort and send men there to train up to generals and gain tons of valor. I try to avoid abusing glitches like this but just wanted to share my findings with you guys.
Productivity
07-29-2005, 16:12
Neither is really a glitch - Presumably the lost prince is actually working through other channels to build up forces, hiring people, gathering allies overseas etc. before bringing them all back to one province.
In another situation I took over Portugal from Spain which we know is always a troublesome province. Now before you build your first fort there is a 100% chance of rebellion no matter what for all four years as its being built. So I saved the game and tried an experiment... I left a sufficiently large army there in anticipation of a rebellion and WHAM another humongous stack off ass kickers pop out of nowhere... so I reloaded and this time left an old beat up unit of Hobilars with perhaps 20 men and next year one measly unit of archers appear. So I beat them and being so heavily outnumbered I even get a command star for that general... Next year archers reappear with a unit of spearmen so I meet them with that same Hobilar group and also a unit of Urban Milita... again I get another star for my general.
I had two more years of rebellions until my fort was built but the whole thing is kinda stupid because I could build nothing in Portugal and raze the fort and send men there to train up to generals and gain tons of valor. I try to avoid abusing glitches like this but just wanted to share my findings with you guys.
Yeah, some players use feisty provinces like Portugal, Scotland, and Livonia as "training grounds" for new generals and princes, exactly in the way you describe. I don't do it myself, but crushing a rebellion is always a good way to gain experience for your inexperienced commanders..... ~:cool:
Also, realize that the peasant rebellions in Portugal that are based on the number of troops you have in that province are not related to the reappearance of another faction. They are two different things. You only need 100% loyalty to prevent peasant rebellions, but you need 120% loyalty to prevent faction reappearances.
Yeah, some players use feisty provinces like Portugal, Scotland, and Livonia as "training grounds" for new generals and princes, exactly in the way you describe. I don't do it myself, but crushing a rebellion is always a good way to gain experience for your inexperienced commanders..... ~:cool:
I hate rebellions :furious3: , I would rather just secure the province and
send my generals and princes to gain their 'training' elsewhere. I always
keep my loyalty way above 120% if at all possible ~:grouphug: .
VikingHorde
07-29-2005, 21:10
I find rebellions cool because I use them to finance my early danish empire with ransom money from Livonia.
yesdachi
07-29-2005, 21:30
They are two different things. You only need 100% loyalty to prevent peasant rebellions, but you need 120% loyalty to prevent faction reappearances.
i think you need 170% to keep Faction re-emergence from happening???
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
07-29-2005, 22:21
No, 120% but late in the game everything goes crazy and no matter what you do there will be some rebellions.
I hate rebellions :furious3: , I would rather just secure the province and
send my generals and princes to gain their 'training' elsewhere. I always
keep my loyalty way above 120% if at all possible ~:grouphug: .
So do I. Don't get me wrong; I make every reasonable effort to keep rebellions from occurring, as I agree that they're annoying as hell. I'm just saying that that if rebellions do happen to pop up, that I might as well use the opportunity to break in some green generals. ~D
edyzmedieval
07-30-2005, 09:03
Rebellions are kinda fun, because my troops get valour and experience.
On the other hand, I hate Civil Wars. They are very annoying, and sometimes, I use assasins to get rid of my unwanted Princes.
VikingHorde
07-30-2005, 16:50
I have only had one civil war in all the games I have played, but they are not very fun. Re-emergences are pretty useful in enemy provinces, but I hate when it happens in my provinces. Spyes and border forts are nice to keep things nice and peaceful.
tigger_on_vrb
07-30-2005, 18:35
Rebellions are fun and I do use the tactic of farming the ransoms for rebels and training up generals. This works well, especially fairly early in the game. I don't do this though in a province which has been owned by another faction recently or by one which has been eliminated for the game - you are just asking for a loyalist uprising/faction reemergence instead of the rebels.
I have only had one civil war in all the games I have played, but they are not very fun. Re-emergences are pretty useful in enemy provinces, but I hate when it happens in my provinces. Spyes and border forts are nice to keep things nice and peaceful.
Oh, I don't know about that. I've found civil wars can be pretty fun, especially if you deliberately engineered it. ~D I won't recap it here since I've posted it elsewhere in the forums, but one of my favorite experiences of all time was playing through a Danish civil war after I had assassinated my own king. My two younger mediocre uncles led the "royalist" faction to victory against my older uber-uncle who was trying to usurp the throne. Yes, it was pretty rough going for a while, but I definitely had a blast!
Mount Suribachi
07-31-2005, 10:15
Rebellions are there for a reason, that is, to stop the player from steamrollering the map with no hinderances. They might not stop you, but they at least slow you down. And they are historically accurate - indeed, if anything I would say there are not enough rebellions!
I've only ever had 1 civil war, when I marched my King through a unit of my xbowmen just as they were firing...THUD! went my kings body as he fell to the ground and the next turn my English Empire broke out in civil war :dizzy2:
tigger_on_vrb
07-31-2005, 17:09
The only games I have ever had civil wars in is when I have tried to be patient and stick with the few provinces I start with certain factions (eg turks) and build up an infrastructure before declaring war. The years of peace take their toll on influence and eventually you get a civil war. I dont use this tactic any more and I always go for early expansion, atleast a few provinces in the first 10 years for any faction. I've never had a problem after doing that.
Del Arroyo
07-31-2005, 17:14
Playing Northumbria in VI I had two or three civil wars. At least one after I had expanded quite a bit and won many victories. I remember at least one of them was particularly bruising, with my loosing a good general and some good troops, but at least one of them didn't seem to be a big deal, and seemed like a good way to get rid of some disloyal generals. I crushed all these rebellions immediately.
DA
You only need 100% loyalty to prevent peasant rebellions, but you need 120% loyalty to prevent faction reappearances.
Ah, thanks. You just saved me from starting a new topic.
But are the provinces where I need to have 120%< in loyality just the starter provinces of this faction, or all the provinces I have taken from them? And how long do I have to do this?
One more thing: can a faction re-emerge twice(or more)?
Any info on this is appreciated. ~:cheers:
Good question. I try to keep all the provinces I have taken above 120%.
This is because in a previous game I played the French were down to 1
province ( I had taken the others) and one of the ones I had taken was
below the 120 barrier. The English proceeded to pounce on the one remaining
province and the French re-emerged in one I had previously taken ~:confused: ---- I reloaded, fixed loyalty above 120 and the English didn't
attack the French the rest of the game :furious3: , even though they could
have easily knocked them out for good. Those turds!
The 120% loyalty is required in all provinces a fugitive faction has ever owned, if any are below 120% there is a chance that one or more of those provinces will break out in re-emergence every time a possible heir comes of age. My favorite tactic is to engineer a re-emergence in the middle of an enemy holding. Making the Byz reappear in the middle of the Hungarian/Turkish war (I was HRE) was my best so far, they re-emerged in Naples, Bulgaria, Constantinople, Trezibond, Crete, Rhodes, Georgia and Nicea the year before the Horde hit. Turkey was devastated and the Horde and the reemerged Byz were battling it out for control in the East, both losing faster than they could kill each other.
mfberg
That is a nasty idea! Me like ~D .
The 120% loyalty is required in all provinces a fugitive faction has ever owned, if any are below 120% there is a chance that one or more of those provinces will break out in re-emergence every time a possible heir comes of age.
It is my understanding that for a reemergence to occur, the loyalty of a province has to be below 100%, but every other neighbouring province with a loyalty below 120% has a chance of joining. The 20% extra is just a buffer to prevent loyalty from falling under 100% if something happens (say a crusade fails or a high-influence king dies and is succeeded by a nine-toed retard) or if a reemergence occurs in the province of a neighbouring faction.
Is this correct or am I talking nonsense?
Procrustes
08-05-2005, 22:36
I beleive that a faction can only reappear if there was an under-age heir when it disappeared. The AI keeps track of those persons, even though they are never on the board. Once the heir comes of age the AI will do a die roll each turn a province is below 120% loyalty to see if there is a re-appearance. If you wait long enough, any old heirs will eventually die off and the faction will no long be able to reappear.
Yes, a faction can reappear several times in one game - as long as the above conditions are met. I've seen it myself several times.
I once had a game where the French had wiped out the English very early. Many years later I got into a war with the French. I landed a small army in Scotland just to hassle them in their rear as we were fighting along our major border in Europe. I defeated the French, but as I was beseiging the castle the English reappeared in Scotland with three stacks lead by a 70 year old king! Kinda sucked - now I was at war with them, too. (He didn't live long, but turns out he had a brother with him so the English did stick around for a while. I figured they were going to be more trouble to the French than I was, so I got out of the way and made peace with them.)
VikingHorde
08-05-2005, 23:09
The 120% loyalty is required in all provinces a fugitive faction has ever owned, if any are below 120% there is a chance that one or more of those provinces will break out in re-emergence every time a possible heir comes of age. My favorite tactic is to engineer a re-emergence in the middle of an enemy holding. Making the Byz reappear in the middle of the Hungarian/Turkish war (I was HRE) was my best so far, they re-emerged in Naples, Bulgaria, Constantinople, Trezibond, Crete, Rhodes, Georgia and Nicea the year before the Horde hit. Turkey was devastated and the Horde and the reemerged Byz were battling it out for control in the East, both losing faster than they could kill each other.
mfberg
he he, I got to try this ~D . I think my spyes have a job to do :charge:
In my current HRE game the English, with Rebels too, re-emerged in Wales--
with Feudal Knights ~:eek: , when the only units they had in their ONE
remaining province were peasants, urbans and a couple of Royal Knights.
This doesn't seem right that these elite units would just 'show up' from
thin air ~:confused: . What is the deal with this? :help:
littlebktruck
08-11-2005, 21:51
It is my understanding that for a reemergence to occur, the loyalty of a province has to be below 100%, but every other neighbouring province with a loyalty below 120% has a chance of joining. The 20% extra is just a buffer to prevent loyalty from falling under 100% if something happens (say a crusade fails or a high-influence king dies and is succeeded by a nine-toed retard) or if a reemergence occurs in the province of a neighbouring faction.
Is this correct or am I talking nonsense?
I don't think so. For instance, Factions always pop up in rebel provinces, which always have loyalty of 100%.
In my current HRE game the English, with Rebels too, re-emerged in Wales--
with Feudal Knights ~:eek: , when the only units they had in their ONE
remaining province were peasants, urbans and a couple of Royal Knights.
This doesn't seem right that these elite units would just 'show up' from
thin air ~:confused: . What is the deal with this? :help:
Do you have MTW *and* VI, or just the regular Medieval?
littlebktruck
08-12-2005, 05:24
In my current HRE game the English, with Rebels too, re-emerged in Wales--
with Feudal Knights ~:eek: , when the only units they had in their ONE
remaining province were peasants, urbans and a couple of Royal Knights.
This doesn't seem right that these elite units would just 'show up' from
thin air ~:confused: . What is the deal with this? :help:
I had that happen in my Italian game. I let Provence rebel and a loyalty revold ensued, with some Feudal Knights and FFK coming for the germans. This was at the spearmen/urban militia stage. Ouch. In my current game the english came back with Feudal Knights, FFK, and a ton of Highland Clansmen.
EatYerGreens
08-12-2005, 05:38
I don't think so. For instance, Factions always pop up in rebel provinces, which always have loyalty of 100%.
Too right. I found this out to my cost recently.
I'm the Byz, still holding Naples and the Sicilians are playing havoc with my shipping. After one abortive attack of their on Naples, they decide to sit back, build a level 3 castle in Sicily and build up a two-stack army of mostly Mil Serges, with a smattering of archers, spears, the King's and prince's RKs. In Malta are two more RKs and one spear unit.
Just as I'm accumulating forces for an attack on Sicily, I lose a ship to them which, it transpires, was blocking a move they wanted to make, in preference to Naples. Greece was briefly under-garissoned but safe as long as my ship was in the way. They EMPTIED Sicily, giving me a freebie on the next turn, to invade Greece with both stacks. I abandoned my half-stack, to avoid a siege and give more choice over troop mix to counter attack. Possibly five of my provinces contributed but I think I obliterated them without any of my reinforcements ever having to play an active role.
Their king was still quite young and reported to be heirless when the elimination message popped up. I thought that was the end of them. I let the Maltese be, mainly due to one too few ships leaving a toss-up between restoring sea trade and a risky invasion venture plus it would have diverted troops I needed elsewhere.
Within very few turns, the Sicilians are back. 5 full stacks - more than double their previous maximum army size. Mix of RK's, mounted serges, FMAAs, very few spears, not one MS or UM in sight. They seige out what was once part of their own army, demolish the port and I'm thinking I won't be able to spare enough men to tackle that lot until the very end of the conquest (last stop before the Pope). Heck, I don't even think there's enough room on the map to place the 5+ stacks I'm going to need to take that lot on with any hope of winning.
I thought they'd be broke, with an income of 330 and a maint in the thousands but, somehow, they're now up to 80% farms and have rebuilt the port. Something fishy there....
I don't mind the concept of re-emergence one bit. It's the manner in which it is executed which kind of sucks. How come they can come back with great units but they never bother to mobilise these types before they get eliminated? Okay, it needs good troops to stand a chance of the re-emergence properly re-establishing at least part of the faction's previous holdings but 5 stacks is way OTT for a puny island held by a tiny garrison. Once it has succeeded, why can the AI never disband units it can't possibly afford to maintain?
Or, simpler question, why can't it disband units at all? Such as units made obsolescent by the various training buildings which it does have the sense to put in place.
littlebktruck
08-12-2005, 05:54
Sounds rough. I've learned through a couple of my games that leaving rebel provinces of eliminated factions close by is not very wise.
Do you have MTW *and* VI, or just the regular Medieval?
Just regular :embarassed: , I've only had the game about 2 months.
Sounds rough. I've learned through a couple of my games that leaving rebel provinces of eliminated factions close by is not very wise.
That was my problem :furious3: . The loyalty was soooo low and the troops
they had sucked so bad that I thought it would be OK to let the Rebels be.
Little did I know English would emerge with Elite troops that they didn't even
have before ~:confused: . What was really bad was that they had not been
eliminated, just restricted to one province. Oh well, live (or die) and learn.
EatYerGreens
08-12-2005, 19:08
Sounds like some kind of glitch going on there.
Normally, a re-emergence can't happen until after a faction leader has been eliminated with no heir, at which point any remaining provinces held by their troops should go grey and be marked up as rebels. If they still had a province with red troops, this shouldn't have happened.
Bit of a long shot but it could have been their king got killed, or they couldn't afford the ransom if he'd been captured but, in the very same turn, an heir came of age, so instant re-emergence without time available to have their leftover province properly turn rebel.
If you look closely, the year counter doesn't actually increment until after all the post-battle messages have been displayed. So, in actual fact, you pressed end year, their king died but the re-emergence message appears before the year counter clicks over, whereas it's actually happening in the year to come. The re-emergence battle isn't resolved until the next time end year is pressed.
I haven't a clue :dizzy2: . I had captured the province a turn or two before
then gave it up because I felt I couldn't hold it due to the sorry loyalty and
lack of available troops. The English were down to one province, then both
rebels and these elite horses showed up. The rebels had many more troops
and won the battle vs the English. The next turn the rebels still controlled
the province and the remaining English troops were spread about their now
2 provinces ~:confused: . What do you think is up?
Check the English troops
1. One may be ransomed, and the other would be the retreating/moved force.
2. One or both may have retreated/moved out of the province before the battle.
Just regular :embarassed: , I've only had the game about 2 months.
That's probably why then. I highly recommend you get Viking Invasion (if you haven't already). After I installed VI, I found newly-resurrected factions' armies to be not quite so insane. They still re-appear with good stacks, but they're not nearly as ridiculous anymore--they're usually more managable in terms of both quantity *and* quality.
I had a strange re-emergence here the other day. Playing as the English the Germans re-emerged in Bulgaria, and a province owned by the French.
I am 99% sure that the Germans never had owned Bulgaria.
I had my taxes there such that loyality probably was under 120%, since no other factions than the germans had been eliminated, I shouldn`t need to worry about re-emergance.
How can this be, that they still re-emerged in that province?
Evil_Maniac From Mars
08-13-2005, 17:26
On my German campaign, I somehow avoided the mass rebellions, and only got 1 reappearance (English), and they where crushed as soon as I brought the Northern divisions over.
EatYerGreens
08-14-2005, 00:10
That's probably why then. I highly recommend you get Viking Invasion (if you haven't already). After I installed VI, I found newly-resurrected factions' armies to be not quite so insane. They still re-appear with good stacks, but they're not nearly as ridiculous anymore--they're usually more managable in terms of both quantity *and* quality.
Not quite so insane?
Would you call five stacks of Sicilians all on Malta, more than twice the size their army was when I wiped it out and unit types it never had before, like Mounted Sergeants, FMAAs and so forth, not as bad as plain MTW?
I persisted with unaltered MTW for quite some time (even though I'd bought VI at the same time) and the re-ermergences I saw there were smaller and often stuffed with pez, UMs, spears and - rather amusingly - seige gear. (My only enconter with mangonels, to date, was being up against three of them plus about 6 units of Hashishin in one of Portugal's oddest rebellions).
The five stacks of good quality Sicilians I'm describing, above, was in VI.
Not quite so insane?
Would you call five stacks of Sicilians all on Malta, more than twice the size their army was when I wiped it out and unit types it never had before, like Mounted Sergeants, FMAAs and so forth, not as bad as plain MTW?
I persisted with unaltered MTW for quite some time (even though I'd bought VI at the same time) and the re-ermergences I saw there were smaller and often stuffed with pez, UMs, spears and - rather amusingly - seige gear. (My only enconter with mangonels, to date, was being up against three of them plus about 6 units of Hashishin in one of Portugal's oddest rebellions).
The five stacks of good quality Sicilians I'm describing, above, was in VI.
Well I have to admit you've got me stumped, then, because I usually don't see faction re-emergences on the scale you just described (although it does happen from time to time). Perhaps it's because of the different factions we play? In other words, given that my 3 favorite factions--Spanish, Egggies, and Byz--are all on the southern/eastern side of the map, I often eliminate many of the same factions as a result (and am therefore more used to what I might have to deal with should they re-appear).
I find it hard to believe, however, that a re-emerging army differs from faction to faction; one would think that they would generally be of the same size and quality, whether they're the French, Almos, or whoever. I suppose it could be difficulty level, although I haven't heard you say that you play on Expert a whole lot (I usually stick with Normal/Hard). I don't know EYG; maybe I've just had good uncommonly good luck (or you've had bad luck) when it comes to faction re-emergences. Sorry I can't give you a better answer! ~:confused:
EatYerGreens
08-14-2005, 04:59
No problem. I guess it's one of those "Your mileage may vary" type things.
The funniest part was how totally disproportionate this was, compared to the size of force they had to beat - about one and a half RKs and maybe one spear unit. This was once part of their own army, ironically enough.
Had they popped up back on Sicily, or on the mainland, then 5 stacks makes sense, as it gives them a good chance of taking provinces and hanging onto them long enough to re-establish properly. They broke the Malta port and I thought they'd go broke right away and be stuck for the rest of the game. Luckily, they've rebuilt it now and have 80% farms, so it seems a re-emergence gives them a renewed opening bank balance.
Current income is arounf 660p.a. If I have the time and the patience, I'll total up the maint they are paying and see if this is actually sustainable.
The cool part is that my war with them is over, their pesky ships vanished and now their new port makes them an additional trade destination on the roster. Ker-chinggg!
But for that trade, I'd have been tempted to send in an emissary, bribe a stack, fight, probably lose, refuse the ransom, rinse and repeat for as long as necessary to whittle their forces down to a point at which a seaborne invasion could be pulled off with a single stack of my own troops.
My own army must be a lot bigger than five stacks but its spread too widely to judge numbers and I definitely haven't got 5 stacks to spare. I'm unlikely to, either, until close to the end of the game. Last stop before Il Popino, shall we say?
Yeah, I'd probably just leave the Sicilians to rot on Malta then. The island is of only minor strategic importance anyway; and if Vizzini has that many stacks there, you might as well just leave them be--for now. ~D I agree that Malta should be one of the last places you hit before setting yourself up on the Papal throne. ~;)
I beleive that a faction can only reappear if there was an under-age heir when it disappeared. The AI keeps track of those persons, even though they are never on the board. Once the heir comes of age the AI will do a die roll each turn a province is below 120% loyalty to see if there is a re-appearance. If you wait long enough, any old heirs will eventually die off and the faction will no long be able to reappear.
Thanks for the answer. I guess my observations were off for some reason. ~:cheers:
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