Are we really all that dumb [Archive]

sharrukin

08-02-2005, 13:00

In a recent thread, I said that there's a lot of innuendo and implication from Europeans that they're smarter than Americans on average. CBR chided me for that, saying if anybody holds that opinion, it's a small minority. I disagree, so I'm going to do a little informal research. Please note, responses are confidential (as opposed to most of my polls) so feel free to be honest.

Americans are NOT stupid but they are like Russia and China and often don't bother to find out much about other nations. Larger nations have that luxury. For smaller nations, or regions like europe where they live very close to one another, that simply isn't an option. That lack sometimes shows up in discussions. Canadians for example know a lot more about the United States than most American do about Canada.

I would vote for;
"I'm not American and I think they Americans are more ignorant" As long as it is understood that this means a lack of knowledge of other countries and not IQ.

Spetulhu

08-02-2005, 13:11

Sharrukin nailed it pretty well. Many Americans don't feel the need to know about unimportant stuff abroad because their own country is so vast. I wouldn't be worried as long as they can accept new ideas when such are met.

Ser Clegane

08-02-2005, 13:22

I think we are roughly the same.

You will always find anecdotal evidence (polls, personal experience etc.) that seem to provide evidence for "ignorant Americans" - but then you could easily do the same for Europe.

From my personal experience at a US High School (5 months) I got the impression that the level in the classes I attended was below what I was used to in Germany, but realistically there were some good explainations for that:

1) The High School waqs a comprehensive school (as opposed to a three-tier school system in Germany were students attend different schools depending on their skill level)
2) I did not really get to choose the classes I took - in some areas (maths, chemistry, literature) there were harder courses that I might have attended if I had the option.

In High School I got the impression that it pretty much depends on the individual's initiative what you take out of it - you can have an easy life by taking some easy classes and doing nothing in the afternoon, but you could also take up some really challenging classes and also join e.g., debating or chess clubs in the afternoon.

IIRC, the results for US students in the 2003 PISA survey of the OECD were rather mediocre (so were Germany's results) but I think they were comparbel to the average of EU countries.

mystic brew

08-02-2005, 13:25

I tend to agree with sharrukin about this.

it's not a question of intellience. Of course it isn't. There may be a prevailing tide of anti-intellectualism, but that is by no means unique to america.

it's a question of isolation from much of the rest of the world. a lot of 'average' americans feel no need to engage with people outside america, because everything they need is right there. America is so big and so varied that this is a big enough world. You just need to look at the percentage of people who don't own passports.

But, conversely, most of the rest of the world is bombarded with Americana of various sorts... America is clearly the dominant world cultural power. So, though this image we recieve may not be entirely true, at least we have an image of america.

from personal experience, a few anecdotes...
In the US, i had college graduates asking me the following questions

1. in the UK, what language do you speak?
2. do you have electricity in england?
3. when you went to Zimbabwe, weren't you worried about cannibals?

These weren't stupid people. not in the slightest. About America they had sound, well thought out, interesting theories. I doubt you would find equivalent college graduates in Europe asking those questions. They simply had never had that information given to them.

so i think europeans think of americans as ignorant because we largely think we have a good feel for america, while americans know little or nothing about us.

call it specific ignorance, rather than general, or intellectual.

Sjakihata

08-02-2005, 13:30

My understanding of the american education system, is that it focuses more on practical knowledge, instead of abstract theoretical knowledge. That both have it's benefits and disadvantages.

For example, I'm going to study history of ideas for the next five years, which doesnt really have a career attached to it, opposed to fx. market economics etc.

I can afford to study something like that, because I will receive $900 a month because I study. Of course the university is free.

In the US I hear so much about "remember to save for your kids college". So if they ever get to college (assuming their parents are wealthy) the kid will probably study something that gives money in return, like a trade. An investment in money. In europe it's an investment as well, but not so much in money, also in knowledge just for knowledge sake.

Naturally, we have many studying what I call practical subjects - something that allows you to go out and make money - the trend is turning here in Denmark to reflect the american trend.

So I think both "poles" are equally enlightened, however, in different ways.

I don't know if you get my point, but that is what I think.

ps. I voted roughly the same.

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

08-02-2005, 13:30

Ignorant, I don't know...

But naive enough to ask about it, that's for sure ~D

Louis,

PS: ok, Don, you're the one who gave me that stick ~D

Sjakihata

08-02-2005, 13:39

Oh, concerning the isolation debate - look on languages for example. How many languages does the average american speak? I would guess 2, american (english) and spanish maybe.

In a Danish normal scool (the first 9 years) you HAVE to study two foriegn languages. English and german or french (normally german). Then in highschool you can add a number of languages.
For example, it is typical to have: english, german, french/spanish/italian/russian and latin in highschool.

To learn a language in itself doesnt make you smarter (I think) but it makes good ground for _really_ understanding a culture, which I think we (europeans) do better/easier simply because of the geography.

However, the bigger european countries Germany, France and England - doesnt have the same need to learn languages as the smaller countries of course.

Often in france, you'll find persons who speak english but simply refusing speaking it, that's another matter ;)

Franconicus

08-02-2005, 13:41

I do not think that Americans in general are more dumb than Europeans. They are different. There are some areas they have no clue and others were they are better.

America is a big country. So there are many who do not care about foreign countries and never had much contact. In Europe you find borders and different cultures everywhere. So you have to learn about other nations.
Further more Americans speak English. So they do not really have to learn another language. In Europe most of the people (and I mean ordinary people) speak more than one language.

Most of the Americans I know are very nationalistic and kind of conservative. That means they have some deadlocked ideas about things like their military, communism, socialsm, guns, UN, ... . They believe that America is God's own country (whatever that means). So they are not very open what is going on somewhere else. Kind of selffocused.

Americans are more progressive, which means they can deal much better with changes. Europeans stick to their old ideas and habits.

The Americans have some habbits that seem to be very very strange to Europeans.

All together: Americans are nice but strange kind of people. And they are not dumb.

Ianofsmeg16

08-02-2005, 13:45

I'm not american, but i like America, i have plans to go on holiday there this year. Europeans and americans arent that different, In Britain we have our stupid people (more commonly reffered to as Chavs) and you Americans have your stupid people (more commonly reffered to as Presidents, joking, i liked clinton). I do have a funny peice of info that my careers advisor told me. If you want to go to university in America thats fine, but dont try and go for a job against a guy who has a european diploma, the american one doesnt count for much over here. is this true, cos i think thats stupid.
EDIT: Ignore my post, Franconicus' point is better than mine ~:cheers:

Tribesman

08-02-2005, 13:47

Humans are dumb , it don't matter where they come from , all people are idiots , the only difference might be thats some people don't realise that they are idiots .
Humans eh ...so reliable ? ~;)

lancelot

08-02-2005, 13:50

That said, I don't think we should look towards Europe as a model. They're a bunch of anti-gun, anti-military, socialists. We need to find a way to enlighten ourselves without turning into wimps.

We're not anti-military per se, its just that we have been doing it for a 1000 odd years more than the USA.

We've had our share you might say..

And for most of the previous big wars...we europeans tend to get stuck in straight away...rather than join in half way through.... wimps indeed! ~:)

Sjakihata

08-02-2005, 13:57

The man who oppose guns, military, killings and massarcre is a whimp? I would say he is the enlightened one.

Beirut

08-02-2005, 13:57

One has only to watch Rick Mercer's Talking to Americans to get an attitude, if not an honest opinion, on the question. ~;)

Americans are certainly not dumb. They build F-22s, Space Shuttles, remote control toys to drive around on Mars. No one else can do those things. America certainly holds the brightest minds. However, because of the nature of American history, their successes, and their overwhelming belief that their systems of government, economics and military are the greatest in the history of the world, indeed the very zenith of human capacity, (some)Americans do tend to look inwards a bit more then they look outwards. At least as far as other country's cultures and habits go.

Ronin

08-02-2005, 13:59

i wouldn´t say they are dumb.

i would certainly say that there is a "cultural isolation".....people here have spoken of it...knowledge of things outside your state or country, speaking foreign languages...etc.

one can have a sharp mind to rival with the best out there....if you don´t botter go get some knowledge to go along with that...you come out looking kinda dumb i´m afraid. ~D

Al Khalifah

08-02-2005, 14:07

They're stupid, but they're no more stupid than everyone else.

They re-elected Bush, we re-elected Blair, the French elected Chirac..

R'as al Ghul

08-02-2005, 14:13

I actually have no idea but I'm guilty of spreading the stereotype.
Don and me had a little brawl a few weeks back before the thread was closed.
I thought it was funny to post the often reported (American to European) question "Did you come here by car?".
This was told to me by several Germans who'd experienced it first hand.

Well all I can say is that it's hardly representative and of course absurd to generalize it.
We have a lot of ignorant and uneducated people in Germany as well and you can meet them almost
anywhere. Doesn't matter if at University, at work or in your free time.
I imagine it's the same in the US as well as other European countries.

What most often draws my attention is the ignorance of other countries
existing on our globe. It's my impression that most people only ever realize
their existance when they appear in the news. This is sad no matter where it occurs.

:bow:

Navaros

08-02-2005, 14:20

in my view, most people in general are stupid

the average person = total idiot

it does not really matter if you are American or European

Moros

08-02-2005, 14:32

The man who oppose guns, military, killings and massarcre is a whimp? I would say he is the enlightened one.
Amen to that brother.

I think people are not smarter at some place in the world but when you speak about knowledge it's not alway the smartest one who know's the much.
I think that Europeans Eduction System work somewhat better then Americas one. Ofcourse I could be wrong since I never went to an American scool.

but I've seen on the news that there was a test (abouit a half year ago) where the questioned 14-15 year olds all over the world about different theme's like: maths, foreign languages, science,... don't know them anymore.
Then they made a ranking list of all those theme's and an overal(sp?) ranking. the results: all the top ten's were dominated by European country's and perhaps a few Asian (I don't remember properly) but I do remember that America wasn't in the top ten. I can't say how reliable it was.

yes America has the nasa and stuff. But someone told me that most of these research teams and building teams were often lead by foreigners or people who just became Amaricans.

Also Americans aren't verry good in foreig languages, but hey, why would you learn them, evrybody speaks English. In Europe they know a lot more languages. In Belgium (flanders) you start learning you first foureign language when your 10-11 years old (french) then in college when you're 13/14 old you get English. when they're 14-15 They get at least one year german but junles you take a verry maths/scientific orientated(word?) class (like me) you'll have it till you graduate. If you're following a language orientated (word?) class you can also get spanish or Italian (16-18 years old).
a lot of people also learn latin (13 years and on) and possibly (ancient) greek
(13-...).
When you go to University well you can leanr any language you want ofcourse ;).

anyhow when looking at IQ it's about the same all over the world but Amarica isn't that much the number one when it comes to technologie. Japan for example.

I' not saying Amercans are dumb, okay? I just wanted to point out that they're not extremly hi-tech aliens.~D
But I voted more ingorant mostly because what sharrukin said, and I think other cultures are one of the most fascinating and interesting things.

Ianofsmeg16

08-02-2005, 14:53

Here you start learning French at 6 years old, German ant 11 and some schools are now teaching Spanish....blimey were gonna be smart....watch out guys! the manx are gonna take over!!!!

scooter_the_shooter

08-02-2005, 14:58

I dont give a !@#$ what language you speak. That does not make you smart.

I would say that America must be doing something right because we dont need to learn all that and we will still be well off. While in Europe you people make it seem that you have to know more languages or you are in for a hard life.

R'as al Ghul

08-02-2005, 15:04

Americans who carry their arrogance and ignorance like a banner
which they are proud of, make it difficult to argue into any other direction.
:bow:

Sjakihata

08-02-2005, 15:08

CBR

08-02-2005, 15:10

And lets not have another wave of mud slinging plz.

CBR

scooter_the_shooter

08-02-2005, 15:17

Posts like this make me wonder why I voted roughly the same....

You people make it seem that you have to know 2 or 3 languages to do well in life.

I know some people that can speak spanish they almost fail on all the other subjects. Being able to speak (insert language here) doesn't make you you know better math or science. I would rather know those then learn a language I will probably never need to use.

CBR

08-02-2005, 15:26

In a recent thread, I said that there's a lot of innuendo and implication from Europeans that they're smarter than Americans on average. CBR chided me for that, saying if anybody holds that opinion, it's a small minority. I disagree, so I'm going to do a little informal research. Please note, responses are confidential (as opposed to most of my polls) so feel free to be honest.

I don't think I said it was a minority, just that I didn't have that opinion and therefore there was no need to go into defense mode ~:)

Lately I have just grown tired of seeing thread after thread derailing, because of a few rotten apples, as it drags a lot of people down to the same level. I guess its a very understandable reaction for most people, but all I see is a vicious circle where it becomes more and more natural to attack another guy's nation based on politics or even WW2.

People can have all kinds of misconceptions and that will never change if one doesn't use proper arguments in a discussion. This forum have people from lots of different nations and age groups as well as new members who doesn't know when to ignore some posts or at least how to respond to it while still keeping the discussion civil.

CBR

Ronin

08-02-2005, 15:28

You people make it seem that you have to know 2 or 3 languages to do well in life.

I know some people that can speak spanish they almost fail on all the other subjects. Being able to speak (insert language here) doesn't make you you know better math or science. I would rather know those then learn a language I will probably never need to use.

yes....too bad that tests comparing the US with other countries shows your students do worse in those things too....

like someone said before....it´s posts like this one that make it hard not to believe the stereotypes.

ichi

08-02-2005, 15:33

Actually I'm continually amazed at the depth of people's intelligence and wisdom, at the incredible ignorance, at the arrogance of all peoples.

Remember that we differ from one another by a very small fraction of our DNA, and by our experiences. Today there are some outstanding students and athletes coming out of American schools, just as European kids can excel. There are also morons amongst us.

Anyway, Gah!

ichi ~:cheers:

scooter_the_shooter

08-02-2005, 15:38

We have a choice to take those other languages here. I turned them all down and took better math science etc..... To some one who wants to go to another country a new language may be important. But to me it is not.

Just a question for you euros

It seems alot (not all) of students here do bad(in school) almost on purpose because they dont want to look "nerdy" or anything like that. This is in grade school to high school. Do some students have that attitude in your countries or is that a mainly an american attitude.

CBR

08-02-2005, 15:40

ceasar010

One reason the number of languages spoken might seem important for Europeans is that in some of the countries you could end up crossing the border if you take the wrong turn ~:)

USA is a country of 290+ million people (most areenglish speaking) and, apart from Spanish perhaps, there is no real need to learn other languages while its more natural to visit other countries here in Europe, vacation, business etc because the continent is divided into so many nations and languages.

To use my own country as an example. Denmark has only 5.4 million people and with big trading partners like UK and Germany it means we simply cant keep to our own as its always good to know the local language if you want to do business with them.

CBR

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

08-02-2005, 15:45

Another answer to caesar...

You want to know if kids in high school here get it rough if nerdy?

Travel and see by yourself, be openminded about it... And for that, you also need to learn the language, learn the habits, and challenge the way YOU are behaving.

Louis,

Sjakihata

08-02-2005, 15:46

Just a question for you euros

It seems alot (not all) of students here do bad(in school) almost on purpose because they dont want to look "nerdy" or anything like that. This is in grade school to high school. Do some students have that attitude in your countries or is that a mainly an american attitude.

I reckognize that trend back when I was in highschool. To or three persons (actually very intelligent) didnt do homework etc, in order to be cool - and hang out with the gang.

The trend is there - but not very big. Most people dont want to waste 3 years in highschool and come out with an average of 7.0 (or D in american system I think).

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 15:54

Ignorant, I don't know...

But naive enough to ask about it, that's for sure ~D

Louis,

PS: ok, Don, you're the one who gave me that stick ~D

No offense taken. ~:) I wouldn't have asked the question and not expected a few zingers here or there. But thus far, we're getting the poll results I expected, that CBR claimed I was out of line on. Roughly half of the non-American crowd thinks Americans are ignorant. The anecdotal commentary seems to support this, as well as suggest reasons for this view.

Ronin

08-02-2005, 16:01

Just a question for you euros

It seems alot (not all) of students here do bad(in school) almost on purpose because they dont want to look "nerdy" or anything like that. This is in grade school to high school. Do some students have that attitude in your countries or is that a mainly an american attitude.

i saw a couple of cases in my days in high-school....

but i can´t say that there´s a "fashion" to do this.....those guys were just looked at as being morons.

CBR

08-02-2005, 16:11

Ah come on Don: I said "I dont recall I have ever called Americans "ignorant mentally inferior" nor do I consider Europeans to be "intellectually superior." I guess you are reacting to the usual leftwing US bashers who always likes to drag a discussion down into the mud but Im certainly not one of them."

I reacted to your use of words as I didnt see a need for them in that thread. I never claimed it was only a minority doing it although I sure wish it was one.

CBR

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 16:19

Well, I would certainly agree Americans tend to be more insular than Europeans. It'd be hard to debate that. As some have suggested, a big part of this stems from the fact that the United States & Europe are roughly the same size in both landmass and population and Europe has 30 something countries while the USA is one.

I didn't know that American students perform that poorly on standarized tests against Europe & Asia. I'm not questioning the conclusion, but I'd like to see the links, if for no other reason than to learn a bit more about it.

I think America's abandonment of foreign languages in it's educational system is a terrible mistake. People point to the acutal need to speak a language, but that's only the practical side of it. A. Saturnus could shed more light on this than I, but I've read some studies in Psychology Today that suggest brain function and cognitive capacity are closely linked to language. In learning multiple languages, your brain learns to think about the same abstract concept multiple ways. Amor, die Liebe, kärlek, love & eros are NOT the same exact things.

That being said, I suggest that cultural awareness is a double-edged sword. Were you Europeans to travel to America and spend some time here, you would recognize that the America you see on television, that you assume is us.... Gerry Springer, Beverly Hills 90210, reality TV, etc. is cartoonish. It's true, I mean, these are Americans on these shows portraying Americans, and these people do exist somewhere. But it's such a gross refinement of some extreme trends that I think you come off with a very cartoonish view of us.

We don't all live in trailer parks or mansions. Not all of us have been arrested. Not all of us believe in exposing ourselves on national television. Algunos de nosotros hablamos mas que una lingua, y aun mas que uno.

My point in starting this thread & discussion wasn't to turn around and say "You see! You are a bunch of bigots". It's that sometimes, I think Europeans think Americans are thin-skinned and imagining a bias, that in reality, according to the results of our informal poll, is there roughly as often as it isn't.

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 16:21

t1master

08-02-2005, 16:25

proles are proles the world over. the uneducated masses in america are less in terms of numbers than the uneducated masses of africa, india, asia... however, the american morons get a worse rap than the rest of the world. ;)

CBR

08-02-2005, 16:32

Fair enough, I guess I misinterpreted your reply above. Interesting results none-the-less, no? :bow:

No worries mate ~:grouphug:

Yes its interesting or rather disturbing...

But then again the poll doesnt specify ignorant in what way ~;)

I bet Europeans know more about Europe than the Americans but it goes the other way around too. Does Europeans know more about the middle east than Americans, I have no idea. Are Europeans a bit more open to other cultures, as they are more used to learning other languages and have lots of nations as neighbours. Or are Americans more open as they are living in a melting pot? Or is the same overall?

I think big nations might be more "ignorant" compared to smaller nations and I dont consider USA to be alone there.

CBR

Hurin_Rules

08-02-2005, 16:40

Americans are no less intelligent than any other people. On the other hand, on average they do tend to be more ignorant. Partly this is due to geography and history: America is more isolated than European or Asian nations, for example, so it is harder for Americans to travel to other places where they speak different languages and have different cultures. Add to this the American military, economic and cultural dominance, and you have a recipe for a culture that is rather myopic. America is the best--why care what anyone else thinks? You see it constantly on this forum. It doesn't take a genius--or a non-american :smile: to spot it.

Craterus

08-02-2005, 17:05

By the way, I was not proving the point... that was a typo. :embarassed:

Haha, I was going to pick up on that.

I think that some Americans are very ignorant, but there are citizens in every nation that are ignorant. Perhaps, the common belief is because many nations disagree with American policies and think that they are ignoarant and therefore tar the entire nation with the same brush.

Kanamori

08-02-2005, 17:15

To get into most of the Wisconsin State Colleges, you have at least three years of some foreign language (typically, they are either German, French, Spanish, or Latin). It is the same for most of the colleges whose requirements I've looked at. I've had five years of Spanish, and most of my old schoolmates had four or five years in whatever language they chose. On top of that, I, and most of my other schoolmates, took one year in the other languages. (Most grade schools in Wisconsin have three choices: French and German are pretty constant, but Latin and Spanish can be switched around.) The school system is quite different here. It is largely by districts, those districts fund their schools with property taxes. It would stand to reason, then, that a district in the rich suburbs would have more money, and, almost undoubtebly, would be better at educating than the perhaps poorer city areas. Perhaps on a side note, whenever we get foreign exchange students, typically about five to ten a year, they are always amazed at how different it is than what they imagined.

I'm not questioning the conclusion, but I'd like to see the links, if for no other reason than to learn a bit more about it.

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs98/linking/
(Math/science comparison)
It is basically the only comparative between the USA and other nations regarding grade school students. I believe it is important to look at the mean, but I believe it is also quite interesting to look at the distribution. It may suggest that our stupid people tend to just be more stupid. I guess they are more embarassing too ~;)

Kaiser of Arabia

08-02-2005, 17:22

Personally I beleive Americans are more informed because many of us realize the threat that International Socialism poses to freedom and liberty worldwide. There are other reasons too...mainly because we're smart enough not to demilitarize with all the threats to international liberty (China, North Korea, Iran, Palestine, etc).

Proletariat

08-02-2005, 17:25

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs98/linking/

Can we kick Mississippi out? Japanese children must be smarter while still in the womb than these characters.

~:eek:

I guess I'm glad I was raised primarily in Virginia.

drone

08-02-2005, 17:32

Regarding languages, I took two years of French and one year of German in high school. Do I remember any of it? No. When you have nobody around to practice with, you lose it. Spanish is the one language that most Americans can use with native speakers on a regular basis. You can even watch Univision or Telemundo to stay sharp.

Americans are no dumber than Europeans, but we are fairly ignorant of the outside world. Most Americans don't have passports, the mainstream press does not report foreign news much, and we have two great big bodies of water separating us from everybody but Canadians and Latinos. We don't need to go overseas to visit "exotic locations", we have beaches, mountains, deserts, etc. all right here.

proles are proles the world over. the uneducated masses in america are less in terms of numbers than the uneducated masses of africa, india, asia... however, the american morons get a worse rap than the rest of the world. ;)The problem is, we put our morons on TV...

Sasaki Kojiro

08-02-2005, 17:33

Americans know less languages that's for sure, it isn't needed here. What I've always thought and heard is that our grade schools and high schools are inferior but our Universities are much better (they certainly cost enough). I know some US colleges have 10% foreign students. My brother took some classes in colleges in Japan and said they were not very good schools.

Most of the tests that put Americans as uninformed and done in grade school or highschool.

For geography, I seem to remember most of the time being spent on learning all the states and their capitals.

Proletariat

08-02-2005, 17:34

Redleg

08-02-2005, 17:37

Well I have been in a total of 8 nations - 4 in the Americas, 3 in Asia and one in Europe. And guess what I have found that every nation has its share of ignorant people, and the height of arrogancy thinking that any nation is more or less intelligent then another. Or that one nations citizens know more then another's.

I could point out a few things about the United States that no one in Europe would know - just like many Europeans can point out things I don't know. To assume Americans are more ignorant then any other nation - is the height of ignorance and smacks of bigoted philisophies.

Moros

08-02-2005, 17:40

I didn't know that American students perform that poorly on standarized tests against Europe & Asia. I'm not questioning the conclusion, but I'd like to see the links, if for no other reason than to learn a bit more about it.
are you talking about the test I poosted about? If you do, well I'll look if I can find it but like I said I saw it on the news but it might be on their site I'll look it up so I can come up with the exact numbers. And I'll post te link if someone is interested.(it will be dutch tough).

You people make it seem that you have to know 2 or 3 languages to do well in life.
I know some people that can speak spanish they almost fail on all the other subjects. Being able to speak (insert language here) doesn't make you you know better math or science. I would rather know those then learn a language I will probably never need to use.
well the test I saw showed also the results of the maths tests, I can't remember if amarica was in the top ten (they only showed the top 10).
I only remebered Belgium was the best at maths of all countries (Jesus, we are such a geek country, we suck at evrything but maths :no:).

But Don's right, about the "language-brain-thingy" my dad, who's learning psychology (sp?) (even tough he's 50) has said it to me at times when I did'nt fel learning my latin or French. It's the about same with musicians (sp?), at least if they started playing ince they were "young".
(I'm smart,I'm smart, I speak more than 1 language and I play the guitar since I was about 9 years old ~D)

anyway I'm going to search for that article and link it.

Strike For The South

08-02-2005, 17:44

Screw America us southerners are the best ~;) on a more serious note everyone gets hit with stupid stereotypes and this is just one more :dizzy2:

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

08-02-2005, 17:46

Can we kick Mississippi out? Japanese children must be smarter while still in the womb than these characters.

~:eek:

I guess I'm glad I was raised primarily in Virginia.

West Virginia? ~;)

Hey, next you're going to ask for New Hampshire to be taken out, and eventually you're going to be left with Mass ~D !

If you kick Miss out, I ask for Les Vosges to be kicked out for France!
(that's our hilly place where people are not aware they don't have to marry their cousin... at best...)

Louis,

Byzantine Prince

08-02-2005, 17:46

Stupidity and ignorance are not the same. Lot's of places in the world are more *ignorant* then the US in terms of basic knowledge. Most people in the world have on basic education if not less. I don't think americans are *stupid* either.

I think *some* americans are just unitelligent about things that they think don't concern them. These *some* just hapen to be louder and more abnoxous then the intelligent people so we notice them more.

Goofball

08-02-2005, 18:07

I had to vote "I'm not American and I think they Americans are more ignorant." However, I would like to make the distinction that there is really no correlation between intelligence and ignorance. I don't think Americans are, as a people, any less intelligent than any other nation on Earth. But I do find that just due to the size, power, and global cultural influence that their nation exerts, Americans tend to be more ignorant about other nations than other nations are of them.

However, this (in my mind) doesn't really reflect badly on them. I was watching a Canadian broadcaster talking about this very subject (the fact that Canadians tend to know much more about the U.S. than Americans know about Canada) recently. The Canadian newsman basically said "Why the hell should we expect them to know all about us?" His take (which I agree with) was that what goes on in the U.S. affects us in Canada to a very large degree. On the other hand, what goes on in Canada really has little or no effect on the lives of the average American. For Canadians, it is in our best interest to keep an eye on and understand what happens in the U.S., but there is really no reason for Joe Lunchpail living in New Jersey to really pay attention to us.

mystic brew

08-02-2005, 18:23

Well, I would certainly agree Americans tend to be more insular than Europeans. It'd be hard to debate that.

That being said, I suggest that cultural awareness is a double-edged sword. Were you Europeans to travel to America and spend some time here, you would recognize that the America you see on television, that you assume is us.... Gerry Springer, Beverly Hills 90210, reality TV, etc. is cartoonish. It's true, I mean, these are Americans on these shows portraying Americans, and these people do exist somewhere. But it's such a gross refinement of some extreme trends that I think you come off with a very cartoonish view of us.

Yeah.. absolutely spot on, that.

though it does give people the impression that they known america... and thats significant. Since it is often the case that americans know next to nothing about Europe, while europeans have a distorted and cartoonish view of America.

So, as usual, i think it's probably a lot to do with the atmosphere of mutual accusations.

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 18:45

A few more interesting points...

I said Americans are more or less ignorant... not of other cultures, just ignorant. I find it interesting that most of the Candians and Europeans equate knowledge of other cultures as knowledge outright.

One thing I will say about America, beyond us being insular, we seem to be more interested in national sovereignty issues and minding our own business (please, no Iraq cracks) then other countries. We generally don't attempt to form a panel at the UN to force Canada to do something we want them to do. If we want them to do something, we go after them ourselves. What's more, unless it's impacting us directly, we don't mess around in Canada's affairs (using Canada as an example). It wouldn't occur to us to pass the small arms ban you're all trying to shove through the UN.

That might have something to do with perceived power globally, but as the combined EU has a military as large as the US and a larger population than the US, that argument kinda goes out the window.

Oh, and current score among the Europeans.... 60% of you think Americans are more ignorant on average.

Oh, interesting point... in another thread, Americans are leading among Europeans for being more arrogant. Yet, here, 2 Americans think we're less informed and no Americans think we're more informed. A majority of Europeans think they're more informed and no Europeans think Americans might be. Either we're not the most arrogant, or this isn't even a horserace any more, Americans are oblivious AND arrogant about it. ~D

Big_John

08-02-2005, 18:55

i voted the first choice. from my travels in europe, and the us, i think that europeans, on average, are more informed and interested in informing themselves than americans. hence, americans are more ignorant. i don't think the difference in huge, but it's there.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-02-2005, 19:10

Well looking at the poll results there leaves little doubt to which society is more concieted.

Louis VI the Fat

08-02-2005, 19:16

I don't feel the need to vote anonymously. I voted:
"I'm not American and I think Americans are more ignorant"

Along with just about everybody else, with that I mean a lack of knowledge of other countries, of an awareness of the world and not IQ.

More importantly, to be exact, I think the uneducated masses in the US are more ignorant than the uneducated masses in Europe.
I don't think at all that there is a difference in ignorance between the higher educated in Europe and the US. That's an important refinement.

Those with higher education on both sides of the Atlantic all know who wrote Moby Dick, can point out Argentina on a map and know who Michelangelo was.

It's just that there seem to be such an awful lot of hicks, of people completely and utterly ignorant of the outside world in America. They make up entire villages. You can travel for hundreds of miles through countless counties in America without meeting just a single educated person. In Europe you'd find that only in the most remote, insular or mountainous area's and Belgium. ~:handball:

Gawain of Orkeny

08-02-2005, 19:21

Those with higher education on both sides of the Atlantic all know who wrote Moby Dick, can point out Argentina on a map and know who Michelangelo was.

Those on both sides who are over 50 can do all that higher education or not. I find you eurpoeans arrogance uterly amazing here. You claim to know more about the world but in reality all you know more about is europe. Yes you know about more countries because their in your backyard. You think you know about the US but in reality most of you are clueless on the matter.

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 19:22

I appreciate your honesty Louis. And I swear, I'm not being defensive or setting you up.... how much time have you spent over here? How exactly did you reach that conclusion?

By the way, there's a certain amount of provinicalism here in the United States that mimics this phenomenon. If you asked people from Massachussets about people from Alabama, you'd get similar results, even though the vast majority of people in Massachussets haven't met somebody from Alabama, let alone visited there (or perish the thought, spent enough time there to learn the culture first hand).

Gawain of Orkeny

08-02-2005, 19:24

By the way, there's a certain amount of provinicalism here in the United States that mimics this phenomenon. If you asked people from Massachussets about people from Alabama, you'd get similar results, even though the vast majority of people in Massachussets haven't met somebody from Alabama, let alone visited there (or perish the thought, spent enough time there to learn the culture first hand).

Yup and the term damn yankee is still popular in the south and many notherners still look upon the south as hicks. Californians think they are the most proggrsesive and us New Yorkers think we are the shite.

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 19:28

Those on both sides who are over 50 can do all that higher education or not. I find you eurpoeans arrogance uterly amazing here. You claim to know more about the world but in reality all you know more about is europe. Yes you know about more countries because their in your backyard. You think you know about the US but in reality most of you are clueless on the matter.

Hey, hey, hey. No need to get defensive. Regardless of whether they're correct or not, there's a perception we're trying to deal with here, and getting sore over it isn't going to do anything to alleviate that. I don't think they're being snobs. I think they think they have a handle on truth. They may even be right. At the very least, they're being honest, and we're trying to encourage that.

For all I know the average unwashed mass in Germany might be more informed than the average unwashed mass in Oklahoma. Again, I do want to point out that my poll question was about total acquired knowledge, not knowledge of other cultures. The point is, either 1) Europeans really are more informed (on a variety of issues) than Americans or 2) they're ignorant themselves in terms of their relative level of information.

Again, my point with this thread & poll was to start a dialogue, and to highlight a few of the Us vs. Them undercurrents that go on around here. Until you can see them, it's very hard to understand them. I think Americans in the Backroom view the Europeans as smug (very broad brush here) and the Europeans tend to view the Americans as thin skinned and uninformed (on a variety of issues) (and again, painting with a very broad brush).

Getting sore and saying 'Aha! you're all a bunch of arrogant curs' isn't going to change anything.

PanzerJaeger

08-02-2005, 19:33

Some of the absolute stupidity some of my German friends hit me with about the US amazes me. 2 of them think Bush and Israel planned 9/11 to fulfill some sort of holy zionist crusade against arabs.. and these people got better grades than I did in school.. ~:eek:

The way I see it, European media leads Europeans to feel they are the most informed people on the planet when in reality a lot of them are being taken for a ride.

The difference between America and Europe is that Cledus over here doesnt pretend to know anything about anything outside of lower alabama but Hans in europe is lead to believe he's informed about other parts of the world. ~D

Most Americans dont know much about the rest of the world and most Europeans dont know much about places outside of Europe.

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 19:38

By the way, I want to congratulate everyone, on all sides of this issue, especially Kaiser. I was really hesitant to light this powder keg off, but thus far, you've all been doing a fantastic job at having a frank discussion about a sensitive topic.

I think there is hope for the Backroom, and we can move beyond the Crypts & the Bloods attitude we've had in here lately, we just need to move out of our traditional topic base and find things to discuss that move us out of our pre-defined knowledge base of assumptions.

PJ, I think the term 'stupidity' is a bit harsh, especially since you're talking about a matter of faith, not knowledge, but the rest of your post actually put it into context.

Sasaki Kojiro

08-02-2005, 19:40

Some people have a weird definition of uninformed.

"lack of knowledge of other countries"?

I don't need to know who the prime minister of canada is any more than I need to know the atomic weight of Einsteinium. Knowing what you need to know makes you informed.

Almost amusing ~:)

discovery1

08-02-2005, 19:44

I would say that Americans are more ignorant on many things, like other countries but to say we are dumb is probably wrong. Then again, I'm reminded of 'The Tonight Show's' Jay Walking segment. So stupid the people are.

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 19:50

How many hundreds of answers does he have to receive in order to get the 10 that he puts on the screen though? The whole point of the skit is to make you laugh by finding the dumbest people out there. That's hardly fair to use it as representative of the intelligence or knowledge level of the population at large.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-02-2005, 19:51

I would say that Americans are more ignorant on many things, like other countries but to say we are dumb is probably wrong.

Again as Europeans are unaware of what happens in our individual states. Europe thinks they are the world while we think we are. The difference is that we are far more humble individually. All you have to do is look at the poll to back this up. Most of us think were all the same.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-02-2005, 19:54

I think if someone actually did a study as to how many US Historians know about other countries, compared to how many European Historians know about other countries, you'd be surprised at the results...

Well just going by the monastary I see no evidence of europeans having any better knowledge of history than that displayed by american posters here.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-02-2005, 20:04

My beef with the american people is that they are ignorant to logic.

Well you proved that in the Bush bashing thread. Logic had no effect upon your position. ~D

Louis VI the Fat

08-02-2005, 20:10

No need to get defensive. I'm talking about the unwashed masses. My point is after all that the educated part, by which I mean some 50% of the population, on either side of the Atlantic is no more ignorant than the other. There's no difference in ignorance between educated Americans and Europeans.
Of course there's no difference between what historians on either side know. They read the same books and articles.

The unwashed masses in America do seem to be more ignorant than their European counterpart in my perception. I have a feeling that the working class poor in Europe read more newspapers, more informative books and watch more news than in America. They seem less anti-intellectualistic overall, less superstitious, less averse to 'high culture'. But I'd be very interested in some links or figure's. Anyone found any yet?

Anyway, if I wanted to be snobbish, I would've talked about the educated half. But alas, the truth stands in the way and nobody can call educated Americans ignorant.

And one does not take intellectual delight of course in how many of one's uneducated half can spell, say, 'potato' correctly...

Sasaki Kojiro

08-02-2005, 20:11

This puts me in mind of the Monty Python skit:

Host: And the first question is of Karl Marx. Coventry City last won the English football cup in what year? No, I'm not surprised you didn't get that. It is in fact a trick question. Coventry City have never won the English Football Cup.

~:)

Louis VI the Fat

08-02-2005, 20:12

Sorry, I can't help ending my posts with a little provocation.

*Will try and work on that*

Kagemusha

08-02-2005, 20:12

I dont think that americans are ignorant.I think they are too talkative. ~;) Same goes with the rest of Western Europeans.Too much talk for a Finn,too many long sentences.Makes my head hurt. :help:

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

08-02-2005, 20:17

Hum... you spent too much time at Logan airport, did you?

Louis,

my head hurt everytime I take the plane

Don

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 20:20

Actually, I'm stuck in an all-day meeting listening to different product lines give their benchmark plans. My prodct line was done by 10:30, the rest of today and tomorrow, I have to try to look alert. I just say I'm 'answering email'.

When did I say 'My head hurt everytime I take the plane'?

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe

08-02-2005, 20:24

Am just waiting for someone to show up online before heading to TW lobby.. So don't care about me ~D

...

Last time you flew from Logan, the holy paradise of airport booze?

*am sure it was the airtravel though*

Louis,

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 20:28

Hehehe, yeah, I had a couple while I was cooling my heels. I didn't get drunk though. No hangover. I have posted on here when I'd had too much to drink & couldn't speak intelligently, but that wasn't one of those times.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-02-2005, 20:30

I have a feeling that the working class poor in Europe read more newspapers, more informative books and watch more news than in America. They seem less anti-intellectualistic overall, less superstitious, less averse to 'high culture'. But I'd be very interested in some links or figure's. Anyone found any yet?

Thanks for proving my point. Your a bunch of snobs. ~D We americans are so barbaric and behind the times. Someday we may become the intellectually elite as has most of Europe. Heaven forbid.

Meneldil

08-02-2005, 20:41

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 20:46

I voted "I'm not American and I think they Americans are more ignorant "

AS a lot of people said earlier, I think the american unwashed masses are far more ignorant than the european ones.
I went to America only once, but I was amazed by the people I met there. Most of them did not have a clue about what was happening in the world, and I'm fairly sure my 13 years old brother was less ignorant than some 20 years old people I met.
On the other hand, the well-educated people are just the same in every country. There's little difference between and Pakistanese (sp?) and a European well educated person (I even think that well educated people from Africa and Asia are often smarters than well educated europeans).

Of course, ignorant might means a lot of things. I suck at maths, physics, biology, english, so some might consider me as ignorant.

For the record, Meneldil, do you mean unware or disagree with what you commonly believe to be the truth?

Example....in Ireland, when I visit friends, I will not discuss the issue of Israel anymore. Why? They take it as gospel that the Israelis are 100% to blame, and it's all their fault. Being kind, they assume Americans must be ignorant not to see it that way. They assume that we don't know that Israeli tanks patrol Palestinian neighborhoods or that Israeli gunships fly into the Gaza Strip or the West Bank. We're well aware of it, but we also know that Israel does this in response to rocket/mortar attacks out of those neighborhoods into Israeli neighborhoods. My Irish friends always return to 'well, if the Israelis weren't there in the first place, and in truth they have no right to be...."

This isn't ignorance of global current events, it's a different viewpoint of them.

Kanamori

08-02-2005, 20:47

We don't have 'unwashed masses' like in Europe ~D
~:grouphug:

Gawain of Orkeny

08-02-2005, 20:48

I went to America only once, but I was amazed by the people I met there. Most of them did not have a clue about what was happening in the world, and I'm fairly sure my 13 years old brother was less ignorant than some 20 years old people I met.

By the world again you mean europe. They probably know as much about whats happening in the US as you do about whats happening in Europe and my 13 year old nephew probably knows more about whats going on in the US than you do. Does that make you more ignorant?

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 20:58

I don't think Meneldil & others are referring to the average American's knowledge of European current events, per se. I think they're expressing a belief that Americans do not take the time to learn about Israel, about the Middle East at large, about Chechnya, about Africa or other parts of the globe. I honestly don't know if Americans more informed than Europeans about global events or less, but I do know Americans are more informed about them than Europeans think Americans are.

I also fail to see how knowledge of current events makes one more knowledgeable at large.

Byzantine Prince

08-02-2005, 21:26

This discussion has degenerated into mindless drivell. I for one want this stupid thread closed now. :blank2:

Proletariat

08-02-2005, 21:32

You didn't find the first 50 posts (all a different version of the exact same answer) wildly stimulating, BP?

Gawain of Orkeny

08-02-2005, 21:33

I think they're expressing a belief that Americans do not take the time to learn about Israel, about the Middle East at large,

Ids say the shoes on the other foot judging by whats posted on that topic on these boards by many Europeans. ~;)

And again thats much further from our shores than say Mexico which most americans probably know more about than do Europeans since it influences us more. We all pay more attention to what affects us the most.

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 21:36

This discussion has degenerated into mindless drivell. I for one want this stupid thread closed now. :blank2:

What exactly is your issue with the thread BP? I see people on different sides expressing their views honestly, and then you arriving on the scene to declare it all to be mindless drivel. Would you do us the courtesy of explaining why, oh great wise one? Your humble subjects have little insight into the workings of your great & mysterious mind...

discovery1

08-02-2005, 21:40

This discussion has degenerated into mindless drivell. I for one want this stupid thread closed now. :blank2:

Am I right in thinking you think that we are all dumb then?

Gawain of Orkeny

08-02-2005, 21:40

This discussion has degenerated into mindless drivell.

I have to agree with BP here. At least it did as soon as he arrived. ~;)

Louis VI the Fat

08-02-2005, 21:40

We don't seem to have a clear definition of 'ignorance'.
To me, a highly intelligent or even highly educated person can still be ignorant. Education levels especially can be measured easily - see Prole's link.

But it's about more than that. It's also about more than being aware of what happens outside one's countries borders.

A bit late perhaps, but what would be a good definition of the ignorance - or lack thereoff - we are talking about here?

Don Corleone

08-02-2005, 21:45

Well, that's a fair point Louis. I guess I'd begin by asking does an intimate knowledge of current events outside one's own country make one 'informed' and a lack thereof make one 'uninformed'? Are some areas of the world more important to know about than others?

But in general, I'd say I'm looking for how closely do relative groups of people approach the goal of the 'renaissance man'. This thread has focused mostly on current events, but when it hasn't, technology/ math&science knowledge have been tossed about. What about history, both one's own and external to one's country? Literature? Art? Medicine?

And I'm not talking about the contributions of the USA or Europe, but what does the average American or average European know about these topics?

Gawain of Orkeny

08-02-2005, 21:46

But it's about more than that. It's also about more than being aware of what happens outside one's countries borders.

Again your comoparing apples to oranges here. Our borders are much larger than yours. We know more about whats happening between our states borders than you do. Its all relative. You know more of whats happening in say sweden but I know more of whats happening in Texas lets say. The fact that you have "nations" while we have states dosent make you more knowledgeble on the world but on your corner of it the same as we.

Proletariat

08-02-2005, 21:47

West Virginia?

*spits violently at the ground* Non!

:veryangry:

And to hell with Les Vosges, too.

:gring:

Gawain of Orkeny

08-02-2005, 21:50

West Virginia?

Is that the unwashed masses hes talking about? No wonder he has such a poor opinion of the US ~D Remember Virginia is for lovers. While West Virginia is for cousins. ~;)

Byzantine Prince

08-02-2005, 22:20

What exactly is your issue with the thread BP? I see people on different sides expressing their views honestly, and then you arriving on the scene to declare it all to be mindless drivel. Would you do us the courtesy of explaining why, oh great wise one? Your humble subjects have little insight into the workings of your great & mysterious mind...
Does it really need explaining? *sigh*

The very concept "Are we really that dumb" is dumb. Who is dumb? Saying Americans are dumb is about as insightful as saying Chinese are smart, Canadians are mounties, New Zealanders are sheepshagers. It's pretty much the same worthless argument.

I posted something similar to this before in this thread but nobody bothered to read it or even care. They rather go on and on "well europeans are not better, and blah blah blah...". That's why it should be closed.

Samurai Waki

08-02-2005, 22:30

Generally speaking, I can have a conversation with a British Person about something like tax-reformation/Economics just fine, when I have a conversation with most other Americans it involves Alcohol/Woman/Cars, this isn't to say we aren't dumber than Europeans we just have different priorities ~;)

Moros

08-02-2005, 22:54

In Europe you'd find that only in the most remote, insular or mountainous area's and Belgium.
you got to be kidding, belgium is the except for the Netherlands the most crowded(couldn't find the correct word, about 315 (not sure) people /1km²) country .

ow I've found test results from the late nintys wich haves some pics but they are in dutch but since it's a word doc I can't post the links. but I'll give you some exact numbers and I'll post the link (you'll have to download it and understand dutch). note: these numbers are somewhat different then that of the test I was previously talking about.

link: http://www.ond.vlaanderen.be/onderwijsstatistieken/2001-2002/pdfs/publicatie.doc

some things wich I noticed:
1)Japan and Korea have verry good results and might be the 2 best (with japan as the number 1). They were the best at maths and sience but they weren't that good with laguage (the test didn't include foreign languages.)
2)We have no reliable number of the Netherland because not enough schools participated with the test.
3) VS is about the same as the average country ( example they beated: Germany, Greece, portugal, Italy )
4)southren European countrys had less grades as more northren.
5)Mexico and Brasil had much lower grades then the other countrys.
6) Canada beaten Amarica big time!

numbers: avarage: avarage: avarage:
country: Language Maths Sience

Amarican countrys:
Canada 534 points(2nd) 533 points 529 points
VS 504 points 493 points 499 points
Mexico 422 p 387 p 422 p
Brasil(lowest!) 396 p 334 p 375 p

Northren European countrys:

Finland 546 p (highest!) 536 p 538 p
UK 523 p 529 p 499 p
Sweden 516 p 510 p 512 p
Ireland(sp?) 527 p 503 p 513 p
Noreland(sp?) 505 p 499 p 500 p
France 505 p 517 p 500 p
Flanders (me:D) 532 p 543 p 519 p
Danish 497 p 514 p 481 p

Southren European Countrys:

Austria 507 p 515 p 519 p
Italy 487 p 457 p 478 p
Spain 493 p 476 p 491 p
Swiss 494 p 529 p 496 p
Greece 474 p 447 p 461 p

Chech Rep.: 492 p 498 p 511 p

Asian:
Japan 522 p 557 p (first) 550 p (2nd)
S. Korea 525 p 547 p (2nd) 552 p (first)

Other:
Australia 528 p 533 p 528 p
New-sealand (sp?) 529 p 537 p 528 p

These are not all the countrys (but most of them) who participated but I've got to quit know. I'll post the other country's tomorrow if someones interested.

Uesugi Kenshin

08-02-2005, 23:15

I have no idea about how intelligent most people in the US or Europe are, but here in Vermont there are a lot of idiots. It is altogether possible that the idiot density here is average though as there are a lot of intelligent and fairly average people here as well.

kiwitt

08-02-2005, 23:43

I saw a chart once where the states with the higher than average IQ voted for Kerry and the states with the lower IQ voted for Bush. Here is one Link (http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm) I found.

Azi Tohak

08-02-2005, 23:49

Duh hyuck! Maybe that is why a yokel loike I vooted for Prezdnt Dubya.

This IQ data is based on SAT/ACT test scores

And how exactly is this calculated?

I am glad that so many people are so interested in IQ, statistical correlations, and their relation to politics. I believe such correlations are increasingly interesting as some candidates this year funneled more money into biased advertising and partisan propaganda than has ever been attempted in the history of the world.

Yup. Smearing sure did work out well for the Democrats didn't it?

Azi

Louis VI the Fat

08-02-2005, 23:56

It was a joke, Gertgregoor. ~;)

You can travel for hundreds of miles through countless counties in America without meeting just a single educated person. In Europe you'd find that only in the most remote, insular or mountainous area's. And Belgium. ~:handball:Just a mean and totally uncalled for punch below the belt aimed at Wallonia (French Belgium, whatever it's called in English).

See, I have this genetically-based urge to make wisecracks about them whenever the opportunity arises. Like you Flemish have with the Dutch and vice-versa.

Can't be helped, can it? ~:)

Xiahou

08-03-2005, 00:11

I saw a chart once where the states with the higher than average IQ voted for Kerry and the states with the lower IQ voted for Bush. Here is one Link (http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm) I found.
It's interesting that people still put this forward- it's a total hoax and even snopes.com has it listed as a false urban legend. All it really takes to debunk this though is some common sense- for a state to have an 85 average, an absurdly large segment of the population would need to be mentally retarded.

I won't comment further on what it would say about the intelligence of people who'd believe something so ridiculous. ~D

Louis VI the Fat

08-03-2005, 00:15

kiwitt

08-03-2005, 00:18

Thanks for that Xiahou.

Kaiser of Arabia

08-03-2005, 00:28

Is that the unwashed masses hes talking about? No wonder he has such a poor opinion of the US ~D Remember Virginia is for lovers. While West Virginia is for cousins. ~;)
My Gramps is an Irishman from West Virginia, and he married a 1st Generation New Jersian of Austrian Decent (Irish-German pride!), so that statement is not totally true lol!.
Though, the Virginias are a beutiful state (yes I still consider them one state dammit! I hate the US Civil War for that! :charge: ).

Divinus Arma

08-03-2005, 00:45

Does it really need explaining? *sigh*

The very concept "Are we really that dumb" is dumb. Who is dumb? Saying Americans are dumb is about as insightful as saying Chinese are smart, Canadians are mounties, New Zealanders are sheepshagers. It's pretty much the same worthless argument.

I posted something similar to this before in this thread but nobody bothered to read it or even care. They rather go on and on "well europeans are not better, and blah blah blah...". That's why it should be closed.

I just answered the poll on your behavior. I picked "behavior is deteriorating and BP should be banned right now. YES RIGHT NOW!" ~D

I personally think this has been a stimulating, interesting, and appropriate topic. The various sides have been discussed with dignity and respect for the most part. Except for BP. Who should be banned. Yes. right now. ~D

Divinus Arma

08-03-2005, 01:06

swirly_the_toilet_fish

08-03-2005, 07:15

Simple. I'm not even going to bother reading the thread but I am an American and I believe as a nation we are more ignorant. We're behind Madagascar in academics (32nd or 33rd). Land of opportunity, save education. :furious3:

Franconicus

08-03-2005, 07:16

I think it would be interesting to find out the required level of world history education for both America and Europe.

America, for example, requires formal instruction on world history through to American Independance. From there, the focus is on America, but events outside the states that relate to America or are massive in scale are also taught.

I'd becasue curious to know how much foriegn countries teach their citizens of America's history and it's role in world peace and stability throughout history. I would also be interested in how this information is presented, especially so in Germany, France, and England.
Divinius, the American history is teached at German schools - not only in the history lessons. Every German kid has to learn English (starts at their 3rd year). And there they learn a lot about American history and society.
However, the interpretation moght be different

swirly_the_toilet_fish

08-03-2005, 07:21

I believe American schools should require World History early on (2nd or 3rd grade) starting with Classical History. We live in a democratic republic but American students rarely even touch where this government stemed from or what it means.

Besides, I am here at the Org so I am a world history buff myself. Living in Wisconsin (mainly settled by those of German and Scandinavian heritage) should have the option of learning their founders' languages.

Productivity

08-03-2005, 09:48

Americans know less languages that's for sure,

Actually I created a poll here about this a while ago. While Americans did know less, they certainly were not monolingual for the most.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44738

EDIT: In finding this I sorted by thread starter. Does anyone have any idea how many threads devatstatin dave started in the last year? Pages of them, that's how many!!!

Franconicus

08-03-2005, 09:59

Don, what are your conclusions from this result?

Azi Tohak

08-03-2005, 14:48

It's interesting that people still put this forward- it's a total hoax and even snopes.com has it listed as a false urban legend. All it really takes to debunk this though is some common sense- for a state to have an 85 average, an absurdly large segment of the population would need to be mentally retarded.

I won't comment further on what it would say about the intelligence of people who'd believe something so ridiculous. ~D

Wasn't Forrest Gump about a 70? There are not that many Forrests in South Carolina... are there...?

Come on kiwitt, I just want to know how that is calculated. I want to know just how smrt my 19 on the ACT makes me!

And here is the magical bull**** flag:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/stateiq.asp

Origins: Some pranks are so good they keep working over and over again.

Back in November 2002, someone (using the name Robert Calvert) created and posted to a USENET newsgroup a phony chart which purportedly showed the average IQ per state in the U.S., along with the average income and a column indicating how that state voted in the 2000 presidential election. The gag was that all the states that voted for Vice-President Al Gore in the 2000 presidential election were clustered at the top of the IQ scale, while all the states that voted for then-Texas Governor George W. Bush were clustered at the bottom.

The chart's creator claimed to have been inspired by the book IQ and the Wealth of Nations and to have drawn his IQ data from the Ravens APM, but — save for the average income per state numbers, which were valid but outdated figures taken from the 1994 World Almanac — the chart was completely bogus. (The Ravens Advanced Progressive Matrices is not really a general intelligence test, nor do its publishers offer state-by-state test results data.) Nonetheless, a number of news publications (including the staid Economist) were taken in by the hoax — some mistakenly citing the information as having come from the book IQ and the Wealth of Nations, or even IQ and the Wealth of States — and published portions of the chart, and discussed it as if it were valid. (A similar hoax about presidential IQs produced similar media-fooling results back in 2001.)

Now, someone has dusted off the same chart and (omitting the economic data) applied it to the 2004 presidential election, keeping the primary gag intact: the "blue" (i.e., Democratic states) are all clustered at the top of the IQ scale, while the "red" (i.e., Republican) states are clustered at the bottom. Same hoax, different year. If 2008 produces another close presidential election as 2000 and 2004 did, expect to see this same joke again four years from now.

Azi

Gawain of Orkeny

08-03-2005, 14:57

Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
Americans know less languages that's for sure,

Your making my point here again. Of course they do as their neighbors speak a different language from them while we all speak english. Speaking another language is no indication of intelligence. Heck most Mexicans here speak better english than I do spanish but I doubt most of them are smarter.

I believe American schools should require World History early on (2nd or 3rd grade) starting with Classical History. We live in a democratic republic but American students rarely even touch where this government stemed from or what it means.

Now wonder education in this country is decling so rapidly if this is so. We studied this stuff from 1st grade through 12th. We only spent one year of HS on American history. Grammar school was a mix of American and world history.

Sasaki Kojiro

08-03-2005, 18:21

Your making my point here again. Of course they do as their neighbors speak a different language from them while we all speak english. Speaking another language is no indication of intelligence. Heck most Mexicans here speak better english than I do spanish but I doubt most of them are smarter.

Yup.

Now wonder education in this country is decling so rapidly if this is so. We studied this stuff from 1st grade through 12th. We only spent one year of HS on American history. Grammar school was a mix of American and world history.

Gradeschool and high school teachers have to teach for the standardized tests (proficiency or whatever it is nowadays). Those are entirely us history. In highschool I had 3 years of us history, 1 of ancient and medieval, 1 of art history (elective) and 1 european (elective). Definatly a problem.

master of the puppets

08-03-2005, 22:36

swirly_the_toilet_fish

08-03-2005, 22:44

Most Americans worship movie and television stars who could care less about the individuals, just that they continue to watch them. Just entering university level education, I see my peers striving to maintain an exceptable average just so they can work on becoming a 'rap star' or invent a million dollar idea. Another reason for the ignorance is because a majority of the young adults and children believe they should have everything handed to them on a plate.

The current situation truly saddens me.

bmolsson

08-04-2005, 03:33

Papewaio

08-04-2005, 05:06

uh its a shame that you non- US people have been drawn into the image of media and hollywood and sees the US as they do. its true many may be ignorant (and am embarrasing amount proud of it) but those are the ones me and my friends insult. the good many of us are intelligent, i am 15 and can speak latin, fence, basic buisness knoledge, am in a band, broadsword fight and much more. i know many who can do even more. the perception of us as ignborant is biased by a crappy ass media.

*geek mode: BP dislike* But how good is your physics? And you kould like use spellchecka *disengage geek mode*

You raise a very good point... the media is highly inaccurate and focuses on ratings not accuracy and information.

Byzantine Prince

08-04-2005, 05:32

Why are mentioning me in that irrelevent post about physics Pape? ~:confused:

Who cares what the media says? If we want the truth we should look at the people who are in power and what they say with great judgement. Also I think we should outlaw those cheatsheets politicians read from. If you are a polititcian the least you could do is memorize or make up your lines as you go along. That's the best way to see if they really mean what they say.

Don't get me wrong, the news is good if you want to know what has hapened somewhere but when they involve themselves in politics things get messy. I don't think they should themselves give the information, I think they should either make funny jokes about them(ie. Jon Stewart) or if they can't do that, to shut up. ~D ~;) ~:eek: