The brittish muslims

[Radier]

This has maybee been brought up before but I didn´t find a thread about it, so here we go: YouGov interviews brittish muslims (526 muslim adults).

* 6% think the britts deserved the bombs in 7/7.

* 24% symphatices with the bombings.

* 18% feel no loyalty at all with Brittain.

* 32% think "Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to bring it to an end"

* 1% said they could take to violence to bring down the western society. That may not seem much, but it is around 16 000 persons in Brittain alone.

* 27% would not call the police and warn if they found out someone is planning an act of terrorism.

* 53% would not call the police if an Iman spread hatred propagande against the west.

Theese numbers are frightening. Muslim extremists shall immediatly be sent out from Europe. In fact, I wouldn´t care if all the muslims where thrown out... They become more and more, and soon western Europe will be majority muslim to...

I say like the Checkian president Vaclav Klaus: A multicutural society feeds terrorism.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/23/npoll23.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/07/23/ixportal.html

[Sjakihata]

Statistics... Im sure I could ask questions that would all have 100% in them or any number I wanted.

This inst really helpful, and quite far from reality I suspect.

Oh, and you my friend is a racist :)

[Ser Clegane]

Please argue the issue - just calling people "racist" becomes inreasingly lame...

[Sjakihata]

ha, I knew a mod would say it.. I also suspect that the mod would understand, but let me quote:
In fact, I wouldn´t care if all the muslims where thrown out...

While the poll only say low percentages, this guy wants all of them out = racist. To blame a few faults on an entire race.

[R'as al Ghul]

While the poll only say low percentages, this guy wants all of them out = racist. To blame a few faults on an entire race.

I agree, but it seems en vogue recently to post racist comments.
Actually I expected this thread to be closed after your first response.

[Ser Clegane]

While the poll only say low percentages, this guy wants all of them out = racist. To blame a few faults on an entire race.

I have to disagree with this interpretation. Actually Radier's statement seems to have more to do with xenophobia than with racism (i.e., he fears the impact that an increasing muslim population might have on the society in his country).
This is not necessarily the same as racism and I think that the careless use of the buzzword "racist" is counterproductive to meaningful and civilized discussions.

[Sjakihata]

I agree, I perhaps misused the word. Maybe because I didnt know any other english word that covered what I meant.

But I certainly know this trend - political parties use scare figures and scare tactics to frighten the people - who in turn vote for said parties, since the offer a solution, throw 'em out. While this may not be racist in the old form, I still think it is connected with racism, ignorance and the fact that you are afraid, all in all a deadly combo. (Just look at the jews, back then... only offered as an example, nothing to do with the thread or its poster)

note to self: remember to use disclaimers more

[lancelot]

I do looovee the way the word racist gets thrown about these days-far too liberally.

You know what scare tactics I dislike? Its not the politcal type, its the type that have explosives with them...like the people who are blowing up our rail network.

[Radier]

I have to disagree with this interpretation. Actually Radier's statement seems to have more to do with xenophobia than with racism (i.e., he fears the impact that an increasing muslim population might have on the society in his country).
This is not necessarily the same as racism and I think that the careless use of the buzzword "racist" is counterproductive to meaningful and civilized discussions.

Increasing muslim population? Hell the most common name In Malmo is Muhammed! ~:) They are allready to many... You can barely walk the muslim ghettos here without being robbed/beaten...

And Sjakihata don´t worry. I have been illegaly called a rascist before... Not that I see muslims as a race, but what do I, a stupid xenophobist, know? Whats wrong with questioning religions? If there where a religion in Africa for example saying we shall kill women, would I be a rascist if I criticised thet to? Just curious, you also think that christians are a race? And if we can´t rely on statistics made by a respectable newspaper, what then shall we trust? ~:confused: Feelings?

I maybee over-reacted when a said all the muslims shall be thrown out, but deep inside I really wouldn´t have cared if they disappeared...

[Ser Clegane]

Increasing muslim population? Hell the most common name In Malmo is Muhammed! ~:) They are allready to many... You can barely walk the muslim ghettos here without being robbed/beaten...

Do you have any numbers on the percentage of muslims im Malmo?

Just asking as surprisingly here in Germany the regions were people complained most about immigrants and voted far right are the regions that actually have a very low percentage of immigrants in the population.

[R'as al Ghul]

I have to disagree with this interpretation. Actually Radier's statement seems to have more to do with xenophobia than with racism (i.e., he fears the impact that an increasing muslim population might have on the society in his country).
This is not necessarily the same as racism and I think that the careless use of the buzzword "racist" is counterproductive to meaningful and civilized discussions.
It seems I've overreacted here, too. (provoked by other posters of the recent past). I apologize. :bow:

[Radier]

Do you have any numbers on the percentage of muslims im Malmo?

Just asking as surprisingly here in Germany the regions were people complained most about immigrants and voted far right are the regions that actually have a very low percentage of immigrants in the population.

Around 25% muslims last time messured... 85% or 95% (I don´t remember) of them are unemployed. I am serious when I say the worst areas in all of Sweden lies in the immegrant parts of Malmo and Stockholm. Just this very weekend three women got attacked and raped in Malmö. One was 81 years old... The ethnical Swedes are constantly fleeing the city for each year. Las year I think there was 19 000 who left the region. The situation is not good at all.

The Swedish Democratic party (nationalists and anti-immegrants) have their strongest support in the southeastern parts of Sweden and cities with alot of immegrants. Here where I live (middle of Sweden, easter coast), on the country, hardly noone are supporting them. Just stupid redneck nazis here...

[Ser Clegane]

Around 25% muslims last time messured

Hmm ... this would indeed be extremely high. What is the percentage for Sweden as a whole (I assume that it is significantly lower)?
Is there a specific reason that the percentage in Malmo is so high? Do most immigrants arrive in Malmo and just stay there?

I agree that it is rather unhealthy for a society if you face the development of ethnic/religeous ghettos. This is not multicultural in a sense that different cultures live together - this is creating parallel cultures that live separated from each other in the same country/city.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I agree that it is rather unhealthy for a society if you face the development of ethnic/religeous ghettos. This is not multicultural in a sense that different cultures live together - this is creating parallel cultures that live separated from each other in the same country/city.

This isnt only happeneing in Sweden but around the world as these people flee the oppression and poverty of their own lands. But instead of conforming to their new countries they bring the poverty and oppression of ther homelands to their new countries. This IMO is what happened in Kosovo. You guys better not start persecuting them or we will have to bomb you.

[Radier]

Hmm ... this would indeed be extremely high. What is the percentage for Sweden as a whole (I assume that it is significantly lower)?
Is there a specific reason that the percentage in Malmo is so high? Do most immigrants arrive in Malmo and just stay there?

I agree that it is rather unhealthy for a society if you face the development of ethnic/religeous ghettos. This is not multicultural in a sense that different cultures live together - this is creating parallel cultures that live separated from each other in the same country/city.

Finaly an understanding voice. Our "multicutural society" are in fact a society of segregation where immegrants are "forced" into criminal gangs.

For some years ago 5% where muslims. That is maybe slightly higher today... I don´t want all the worlds cultures here in Sweden. If I want Iranian culture I travel to Iran. If I want Mexican culture I travel to Mexico, but just mixing it up in a mess do not work. How would it look like if every country in the world did as we do? It would be no difference in living in the US, Saudi-Arabia, China and so on... Just the same boring multiculti all over...

Immegrants come here to Sweden, mainly from our neighbours countries with similar cultures. These Danes, Germans, Finns, Italians and so on are not even representated in the criminal statistics! It´s the non-europeans that settle in poor areas where their countrymen are living, and ghettos are formed. Since the government can´t just force people to move, these ghettos are getting larger and larger. In Rosenbad, Malmo, 1000 students study in the Rosenbad school. Only two of the students are Swedes. How in earth are the immegrants suppose to learn swedish culture, language and so one when there are no Swedes? ~:confused:

I want Swedish culture in Sweden and Brittish culture in Brittain or else the world would be so boring...

[Lazul]

dude, Rosenbad is something ells, its Rosengård! ~;)

allso, actually, immigrants from lets say Denmark and Finnland are usually in the statistics as well but when someone says immigrants most people think of Yugoslavians/ East-European in Sweden.
Now, it is a fact tho, that the immigrants in Sweden arent really doing anyone a favor when they keep beating people up.
From personal experiance I can say that just about every time I see a fight here in Halmstad... a "immigrant" is involved. Now its no big news that most immigrants do NOT commit crimes, its just that its the once that do that are visible, the once that are shown in the media.

[mystic brew]

hmmmm.

Those numbers do seem worrying, to be sure.

However, some of the numbers are a little misleading.
What perdcentage of everybody would call the police if they found anyone preaching hate.

I've left a church in my time after hearing the preacher comment that it was justifiable to kill gays... Didn't report it. The bystander effect is large.

[Tribesman]

For some years ago 5% where muslims. That is maybe slightly higher today...
Try 3.9% ~:cheers: And what about all those damn Roma ? cheeky little buggers they are , you finally recognise their language after nearly 400 years and they all start flooding into the place from the Balkans . ~;)

Anyway wasn't this "survey" used to start another thread already .
But what the hell , I might as well repeat it hear
* 24% symphatices with the bombings.
Entirely misleading
"whether or not you feel the bombings were justified , do you have any sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried out the attacks"

Since the bombers they caught are saying that it had to do with the Iraq war then as that counts as a "feeling or motives" of the bombers , and the vast majiority of people in Britain oppesed the war then either the 526 people they asked are lying or they didn't understandd the question
* 18% feel no loyalty at all with Brittain.
No that is 10% the same result would arise from any sample of "british" people
* 27% would not call the police and warn if they found out someone is planning an act of terrorism.
73% would call the police 12% would call the local authorities , 3% wouldn't tell anyone

They become more and more, and soon western Europe will be majority muslim to...
Yeah right , so tell me what sort of percentage has France or Britain got after a long history of immigrations ? Are they even after such a long history any where near a Muslim Majority , or is it a small minority ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yeah right , so tell me what sort of percentage has France or Britain got after a long history of immigrations ? Are they even after such a long history any where near a Muslim Majority , or is it a small minority ?

Well I know that it tripled between 94 and 2003.


France is home to some six to seven Muslims, the largest Muslim minority in Europe.

It seems that Muslims are the Blacks of France if not all of Europe.


PARIS, June 19, 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – French prisons are teeming with Muslims, a phenomenon chaplains and sociologists blame on marginalization and towering poverty and unemployment rates among the Muslim minority.

“It really harms the image of Islam and Muslims in France that prisons are teeming with Muslims,” Mamdo Sango, a Muslim chaplain, told IslamOnline.net.

Iranian-French researcher Farhad Khosrokhavar said in his recently published book Islam in Prisons that Muslims make up some 70 percent of a total of 60,775 prisoners in France.

LINK (http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2005-06/19/article04.shtml)

Sounds very familiar does it not? Are you guys racists over there?

[Radier]

dude, Rosenbad is something ells, its Rosengård! ~;)

allso, actually, immigrants from lets say Denmark and Finnland are usually in the statistics as well but when someone says immigrants most people think of Yugoslavians/ East-European in Sweden.
Now, it is a fact tho, that the immigrants in Sweden arent really doing anyone a favor when they keep beating people up.
From personal experiance I can say that just about every time I see a fight here in Halmstad... a "immigrant" is involved. Now its no big news that most immigrants do NOT commit crimes, its just that its the once that do that are visible, the once that are shown in the media.

Oh I messed that up... Of course it´s Rosengård ~:)

I heared on the radio that the most criminal immegrants are from northern Africa west of Egypt. Second worst are those from South America. Third worst are middle eastern people. No offence, just facts here...

My personal experience is also that immegrants are far more criminal than Swedes. My expensive bicykle was taken by two guys named Achmed and Muhammed (never got it back). My cousins boyfriend nearly got himself killed by a syrian gang. My cousins friend got raped by arabs. My fathers two classmates nearly got raped by middle-eastern people. A guy at work was nearly stabbed to death by Roma... Immegrants tend to be heavely over representated!

I strongly disagree with the last part. The media sucks at report crimes here in Sweden. If the criminal are from eastern europe they allways report which country he/her came from. But have you ever heard on the news that they say" The man comes from Turkey". No, never. The media is close to being rascist.
It´s the same when they report crimes from Stockholm. They say Täby, Lidingö and so on, the rich swedish northern parts, but when something happens in Rinkeby or Tensta they allways say "southern Stockholm". That realy pisses me of. They shall tell the truth and treat people equal wathever their homeareas are...

I say kick the criminal immegrants out, and let the good ones stay... But sadly, many consider me a rascist when I think so...

[Tribesman]

France is home to some six to seven Muslims, the largest Muslim minority in Europe.
Only six or seven , I thought there were more than that just in some of the soccer teams ~D

[lancelot]

This IMO is what happened in Kosovo. You guys better not start persecuting them or we will have to bomb you.

LOL! Classic.

Gawain-you have just cheered me up!

[King Ragnar]

I completely agree with raider throw them out of our country, multi-cultural societies dont work, if they did, then how come near were i live (newcastle), there is a whole housing estate for jewish people, surley if multi-cultural societies work would all the jewish people be living with native British people, another point backing the fact taht mulit-cultural societies dont work is Rwanda, look what happened there.

[King Ragnar]

sorry double post

[A.Saturnus]

edit: I just hope the thread gets closed soon.

[Devastatin Dave]

edit: I just hope the thread gets closed soon.

Why, seems like a civil discussion to me?

[A.Saturnus]

Why, seems like a civil discussion to me?

Well, you haven´t seen my post before I editted it ~;)
No, I just think it will lead nowhere.

[Devastatin Dave]

But whats wrong with discussing the problems of another culture unwilling to assimulate into a new culture? You don't view this as a problem? Now I'm not saying that anyone should have to completely loose their identity, but I would like them to learn language of their new home and try not to burden the native residence with uncompomising attitudes or former cultural practicies, ie blowing up subways and crowded buses, chopping off heads, etc.

[Papewaio]

What is the opposite of a multi-cultural society?

Mono-cultural.

Virtually no such thing in the world.

What is a British Native? So you are going to give back Britain to the Celts and all the Saxons onwards can leave?

[Don Corleone]

Actually, the Celts arrived to find it already populated. The Britains were an actual people, I'm not even sure they were indigenous, or whether they displaced a hitherto unnamed people....

I used to get into trouble for saying this, because it's so politically incorrect, but when you come right down to it, everybody in the USA is an African-American. It's all just a question of when we left the mother continent and which route we took. ~D

[A.Saturnus]

A culture cannot assimilate into another. In sociological terms "assimilation" means to lose your original culture and accept the culture of the host. Only individuals can assimilate, but not cultures. And that´s partly my problem with this discussion. I would prefer talks about groups of individuals rather than cultures.

[King Ragnar]

A British native is someone who has had a family in this country for many generations black or white.

[Devastatin Dave]

A British native is someone who has had a family in this country for many generations black or white.
I have to disagree... I was served with a guy that his parents were Brittish but he had lived in England his whole life. He drank piss warm beer, talked like some mop head from Liverpool, wore fruity clothes, thought the government should put its tit in your mouth from when you were born (or allowed you to be born) till the day you died, and liked butt love with chicks (he called it butt buggery). Totally Brittish if you ask me.

...and yes, I'm drunk, the wife's out of town and I'm posting even if it kills me!!! Hooozah!!!! ~:cheers:

[Devastatin Dave]

I have to disagree... I was served with a guy that his parents were Brittish but he had lived in England his whole life. He drank piss warm beer, talked like some mop head from Liverpool, wore fruity clothes, thought the government should put its tit in your mouth from when you were born (or allowed you to be born) till the day you died, and liked butt love with chicks (he called it butt buggery). Totally Brittish if you ask me.

...and yes, I'm drunk, the wife's out of town and I'm posting even if it kills me!!! Hooozah!!!! ~:cheers:


Oops, I meant ot say his parents were American, but I can't edit my posts. Sorry... :dizzy2:

[King Henry V]

The fact is that the Muslim minority is bound to increase because they have much larger families whilst 4 decades of liberalism amongst the indigenous population have made people only want small families much later on in life than before.

[Redleg]

There seems to be more to the story then what is being shown in the polls. The thing is that with freedom of speech - you get a vocal minority that express their views in a manner that is designed to play either into the fears of the majority or is done on purpose to strike contraversity (SP) within the community.

For instance some recent news and some not so recent articles coming out of Britian.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml

July 2004


An extremist Islamic cleric based in Britain said yesterday that he would support hostage-taking at British schools if carried out by terrorists with a just cause.

Omar Bakri Mohammed, the spiritual leader of the extremist sect al-Muhajiroun, said that holding women and children hostage would be a reasonable course of action for a Muslim who has suffered under British rule.



http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=6992

This is an interesting read - and because the article needs to be read in detail I won't post bits and pieces of it. However I think it has a lot of insite into the issue.

[IliaDN]

Maybe it is unsocialistic, but as for my country - it would be pleasing to see all muslims driven back to their homelands, if not then imprisoned and sent to build roads in Syberia.
Edit: About the roads - measure for those who won't want to leave the country.

[PanzerJaeger]

Worrying numbers indeed Radier. As ive said, these terrorists feed off the passive support they get in the muslim community.

And dont let them make you feel guilty about wanting them out of your country.. Troublemakers are troublemakers no matter what color their skin is or what culture they come from (and try to force on you). If they are there living off your tax dollars, you have every right to question their presence without being labeled racist, ect.

[IliaDN]

Worrying numbers indeed Radier. As ive said, these terrorists feed off the passive support they get in the muslim community.

And dont let them make you feel guilty about wanting them out of your country.. Troublemakers are troublemakers no matter what color their skin is or what culture they come from (and try to force on you). If they are there living off your tax dollars, you have every right to question their presence without being labeled racist, ect.
Good point BTW.

[Idaho]

Panzer, IliaDN and Radier... (adds names to list)

Yes multiculturalism doesn't work. Seal the borders! Countries created from immigration are a disaster - full of weirdos with too many guns.

None of you realise how tedious it is to hear these things. Go and read a few history books and see that this knee jerk, pitchfolk waving nonsense is as old as the hills. And that's coming from someone who's great grandfather couldn't speak a word of english and lived in an ethnic ghetto.

[IliaDN]

Panzer, IliaDN and Radier... (adds names to list)

Yes multiculturalism doesn't work. Seal the borders! Countries created from immigration are a disaster - full of weirdos with too many guns.

None of you realise how tedious it is to hear these things. Go and read a few history books and see that this knee jerk, pitchfolk waving nonsense is as old as the hills. And that's coming from someone who's great grandfather couldn't speak a word of english and lived in an ethnic ghetto.
Opening borders to early will erase civilizations, read some books too.

[JAG]

Opening borders to early will erase civilizations, read some books too.

lmao, what on earth do you mean?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

lmao, what on earth do you mean?


Does Rome ring a bell?

[IliaDN]

lmao, what on earth do you mean?
Overcrowding country with less educated people.

[Papewaio]

Then educate them. That is if you have a civilisation worth more then its history books and the educated citizens who can teach.

----

Look at what happened to Japan when it isolated itself from the world. China too when it decided to batten down its borders.

----

Australia is a multicultural society. It has problems, but like anything you can use change to your advantage or hide in fear. It has a good standard of living, highly competitive at sports and a diverse range of foods... all of which are enhanced by being a multicultural society. There is cultural clashes some of which fuse into something worse or better.

Things like soccor clubs are not allowed to use ethnic names as a means to difuse tensions... doesn't always work. On the other hand Perth has a single national club and a far more unified fan base.

[PanzerJaeger]

Pap, no one is arguing against a multi-cultural society. Kicking out a specific group of people who are detrimental to the society does not make it mono-cultural, unless that society only has 2 cultural influences to begin with.

For example, lets say European countries kick out all the muslims.. there are still many other cultures present that are a positive benefit to the larger society.

Stopping a certain group that happens to present an above-average danger does not equate to what Japan or China did.

[Ser Clegane]

Maybe it is unsocialistic, but as for my country - it would be pleasing to see all muslims driven back to their homelands, if not then imprisoned and sent to build roads in Syberia.
Edit: About the roads - measure for those who won't want to leave the country.

So, you are advocating ethnic cleansing? How charming.

I have the feeling that some people are happy that the terrorist attacks give them a welcome opportunity to get rid of some people they did not like anyway.

I guess this mindset will never cease to exist - no matter waht happened in the past...

[Papewaio]

I suggest you guys look at what happened when the Normans took over Sicily. It flourished far more then its neighbours because it was more open minded.

Part of the USAs success has been in attracting acadmeics who have fled their less open minded home countries. In WWII the Manhatten Project was staffed by a majority of foreign born and trained scientists that had fled facist Europe.

Also once you start targeting people with such a broad brush as an entire religion where do you stop? Australia only recently (in historic terms) got rid of its racist white Australia policy and stopped counting Aborigines in the wild life census and added them to the human one. Apartheid South Africa is another dispicable example. Where do we stop?

On a pragmatic approach, if you go down that track what stops all Muslim nations from doing an Oil embargo on the nation that implements such a policy?

[PanzerJaeger]

I think we are capable of making the distinction between beneficial cultures and dangerous ones.


On a pragmatic approach, if you go down that track what stops all Muslim nations from doing an Oil embargo on the nation that implements such a policy?

Besides the fact that they need our money, what makes you think that muslim countries would be upset if their best and brightest werent allowed to migrate out of the country?

[Dâriûsh]

It saddens me to see that a lot of people here would love to see me forced out of the country I call home… because I am a Muslim.


Maybe it is unsocialistic, but as for my country - it would be pleasing to see all muslims driven back to their homelands, if not then imprisoned and sent to build roads in Syberia.
Edit: About the roads - measure for those who won't want to leave the country.

...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It saddens me to see that a lot of people here would love to see me forced out of the country I call home… because I am a Muslim.

Sad indeed . But if that ever happens you have no one to blame but your fellow Muslims.

[Idaho]

Sad indeed . But if that ever happens you have no one to blame but your fellow Muslims.

Nonsense. The people to blame are small minded people like you who have a limited grasp on what western civilisation is really about.

[Idaho]

So, you are advocating ethnic cleansing? How charming.

What do you expect from a Russian? They've been ethnic cleansing for hundreds of years.

[Dâriûsh]

Sad indeed . But if that ever happens you have no one to blame but your fellow Muslims. ~:rolleyes:


Why do I even bother…

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Nonsense. The people to blame are small minded people like you who have a limited grasp on what western civilisation is really about.

Nice resorting to personal attacks. I could say the same of you but at least I I know better. Radical Muslimss are giving the rest of them a bad name just like many rappers and Black gangsters over here give Blacks a bad name. In both cases the only ones who can stop it are the regular Muslims or Blacks. Theres nothing we can really do about it.

[Azi Tohak]

Nonsense. The people to blame are small minded people like you who have a limited grasp on what western civilisation is really about.

Followed by this:


What do you expect from a Russian? They've been ethnic cleansing for hundreds of years.


WOW! So THIS is what western culture is about right?

Where is my hyprocrisy thread again...? this is going there!

Azi

[PanzerJaeger]

Nonsense. The people to blame are small minded people like you who have a limited grasp on what western civilisation is really about.

Ha! I would say the pot is calling the kettle black, but that would be insulting to Gawain. ~;)

A pinko trying to lecture on western civilization.. what a crazy world we live in. There wouldnt even be a western civilization if you had your way. :laugh4:

[Idaho]

You don't even understand the basic principles of the things we are discussing Panzer. It's like debating with an 8 year old with ADD.

With Gawain it's more like an 80 year old with CJD.

[Don Corleone]

Well, the interrment of Japanese-Americans was carried out with many of the same arguments, and I think we can all agree (well, most of us anyway) that it was a crime. We had no right or reason to incarcerate American citizens because their ancestors were Japanese, and we have no right to expel people due to their religion. If we ever resort to that... I'm going too because the America I'm a citizen of will be dead.

[Idaho]

Well, the interrment of Japanese-Americans was carried out with many of the same arguments, and I think we can all agree (well, most of us anyway) that it was a crime. We had no right or reason to incarcerate American citizens because their ancestors were Japanese, and we have no right to expel people due to their religion. If we ever resort to that... I'm going too because the America I'm a citizen of will be dead.

Bravo! A light of intelligence in a sea of mud!

~:cheers:

[KukriKhan]

This thread is swirling dangerously around the commode.

One more personal insult, and it gets closed, and warnings issued. Everyone here knows the rules. Abide.

[Redleg]

The issue is not deporting muslims - since many are already citizens of the nations that they live in. And I would have to agree with Don locking up citizens because they have the same base faith of the extremists is not the answer. Just like it was mentioned that locking up Japanese Americans was not the answer. (And besides that one of the most decorated combat units was a regiment consisting of these very same people.)


I actually read this article twice - and think it has more insite on the issue then what has been discussed so far. Its not that the first generation immirgants are doing it - but the 2nd generation with absolutely nothing to do and looking for a cause misdirecting their emotions and anger because they find themselves in a culture they refuse to understand - looking for an identy which has been destoried by a few hate mongers within their own ranks.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=6992

[Tribesman]

Redleg , do you find it funny that the idiot in the interview you posted is a strong advocate of the implimentation of strict Sharia law , yet some of the bombers had convictions for theft , I wonder how well they would have been able to make the explosives without hands ? ~:cheers:

[Slyspy]

I say they should be rounded up and sent to the camps. And I don't really care who "they" are, just so long as their leaving soothes my exaggerated fears. Hitler may have been a bad 'un but he got some things right.......

Just the kind of bar talk I expect from undereducated (if not down-right stupid) bigots who, for all their hatred of immigrant "spongers and killers", are perfectly happy to fiddle the social and would, if they had the guts, justify Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech.

How unhappy I am to find such talk at the Org, most of whose members I had previously thought to be intelligent.

PS

Please spell "British" correctly, especially those who claim to have English as a first language.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well, the interrment of Japanese-Americans was carried out with many of the same arguments, and I think we can all agree (well, most of us anyway) that it was a crime. We had no right or reason to incarcerate American citizens because their ancestors were Japanese, and we have no right to expel people due to their religion. If we ever resort to that... I'm going too because the America I'm a citizen of will be dead.

I agree; Its funny how saome twist my words to their own design though. Saying that if this happened would be sad indeed now makes me small minded because I can see the cause or excuse for such an insane policy. That does not mean I support it. On top of that I have to be called other names. Read what I print not what you would like to believe I say.

[Don Corleone]

Easy now Gawain, I didn't call you any names, and I didn't twist anything you said. I wasn't even thinking of you with my post. Your answer was granted a bit insensitive, but I didn't think you were advocating expelling people, and I don't see how you're getting that from my post.

[Redleg]

Redleg , do you find it funny that the idiot in the interview you posted is a strong advocate of the implimentation of strict Sharia law , yet some of the bombers had convictions for theft , I wonder how well they would have been able to make the explosives without hands ? ~:cheers:

Yes indeed - it seems that he didn't see the contradiction in his philosphy when he was pontificating (SP) to the journalist in the interview. Expelling them from your nation does absolutely no good when they are already citizens - born in the country in which they now call for violence against.

However I do find the xenopohic (SP) comments coming from some somewhat sad. It shows the fundmental failure of the new nation in welcoming the new immigrants into the nation.

Now that does not justify such hateful rhetoric coming from these so called muslims - since I don't see them as mainstream just the vocal minority to what I would assume is a rather uniformed majority.

[Productivity]

On the other hand Perth has a single national club and a far more unified fan base.

And the worst colours (and logo) around.

[Papewaio]

But at one point their merchandise was selling more then the rest of the nations clubs combined... so both a good example of intergration and capitalism working hand in hand.

[Productivity]

I do agree with you, although there are some issues with their business plan.

But purple and orange??

Purple... and... orange???

Who in their right mind chose that?

And I'm a member.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Easy now Gawain, I didn't call you any names, and I didn't twist anything you said. I wasn't even thinking of you with my post. Your answer was granted a bit insensitive, but I didn't think you were advocating expelling people, and I don't see how you're getting that from my post.

Easy now Don dont go puttting any horse heads on my bedpost. The only part that was addressed to you was I agree. How could you think i was accusing you of those other things. I guess I should have posted the insults but I didnt feel like repeatiing them. I know that you know me better than to think me so insensitive. Its fun I guess to demonise your opponents.

[bmolsson]

I think that the whole idea of ethnic cleansing misses the depth of the problem. The moment you target the group rather than the actions, then you have passed one of the very basics of an open western society.

Further more, "kicking them home to their home country" will also create a stream the other way. The middle east would have to change a lot. A country like India would be teared up with population movements beyond our imagination.
In history, the mix of groups, invading or not, have always created a trend towards peace.

Last thing would of course be the laready mixed families and groups. There are today a very large group of mixed origin, which in a ethnic cleansing would be without any real identity.

I would estimate a ethnic cleansing as described above would require movement or extermination of about 2 billion people........

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The moment you target the group rather than the actions, then you have passed one of the very basics of an open western society.

If a 7ft tall black man commits a crime you dont go stopping female midgets ~D


Further more, "kicking them home to their home country" will also create a stream the other way. The middle east would have to change a lot. A country like India would be teared up with population movements beyond our imagination.

If that were to happen we would no longer be a democracy but a mob.

[King Ragnar]

If that were to happen we would no longer be a democracy but a mob.

Are we a democracy now, i certainley beleive that were i live(UK) it isnt a democracy, we have been gaged by the government.

[Radier]

I suggest you guys look at what happened when the Normans took over Sicily. It flourished far more then its neighbours because it was more open minded.

Part of the USAs success has been in attracting acadmeics who have fled their less open minded home countries. In WWII the Manhatten Project was staffed by a majority of foreign born and trained scientists that had fled facist Europe.

Also once you start targeting people with such a broad brush as an entire religion where do you stop? Australia only recently (in historic terms) got rid of its racist white Australia policy and stopped counting Aborigines in the wild life census and added them to the human one. Apartheid South Africa is another dispicable example. Where do we stop?

On a pragmatic approach, if you go down that track what stops all Muslim nations from doing an Oil embargo on the nation that implements such a policy?

You can´t compare US or Australia with socialistic European countries e.g Sweden. In US and Australia you have to work hard, there is pressure on you when you arrive to the new land.
In Sweden we have such a high social subventions that some people who don´t work earn more money than an 8-hour hardworking cleaner. It´s bizarr! How can you earn more by refuse to work!? So people come here from distant lands, moving in to a getto outside some of the larger cities, and then are unemployed.

I have all resons in the world to be angry with muslims. There are 17 rapes every day and the muslims are here heavy overrepresentated.
Here are some translated Swedish news for you all. I hope then you will understand what the situation is like. And remember, the media here is quite political correct, so the articles may not show the entire truth.

Malmo, Sweden. The police now publicly admit what many Scandinavians have known for a long time: They no longer control the situation in the nations's third largest city. It is effectively ruled by violent gangs of Muslim immigrants. Some of the Muslims have lived in the area of Rosengård, Malmo, for twenty years, and still don't know how to read or write Swedish. Ambulance personnel are attacked by stones or weapons, and refuse to help anybody in the area without police escort. The immigrants also spit at them when they come to help. Recently, an Albanian youth was stabbed by an Arab, and was left bleeding to death on the ground while the ambulance waited for the police to arrive. The police themselves hesitate to enter parts of their own city unless they have several patrols, and need to have guards to watch their cars, otherwise they will be vandalized. "Something drastic has to be done, or much more blood will be spilled" says one of the locals.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,529910,00.html

The number of people emigrating from the city of Malmo is reaching record levels. Swedes, who a couple of decades ago decided to open the doors to Muslim "refugees" and asylum seekers, are now turned into refugees in their own country and forced to flee their homes. The people abandoning the city mention crime and fear of the safety of their children as the main reason for leaving. 14 000 Swedes left Malmo 2003.
http://w1.sydsvenskan.se//Article.jsp?article=10092861

ALL of the 600 windows at one of the schools in Malmo have been broken during the summer holiday. Window smashing alone costs the city millions every year. City buses have been forced to avoid the immigrant ghetto, as they are met with youths throwing rocks or bottles at them if they enter. Earlier this year, a boy of Afghan origin had made plans to blow up his own school.
http://w1.sydsvenskan.se/Article.jsp?article=10090830

Rapes in Sweden as a whole have increased by 17% just since the beginning of 2003, and have had a dramatic increase during the past decade. Gang rapes, usually involving Muslim immigrant males and native Swedish girls, have become commonplace. Two weeks ago, 5 Kurds brutally raped a 13-year-old Swedish girl
http://www.expressen.se/index.jsp?a=180423

I have more if you want to. These are all major Swedish newspapers.

I have relatives in Malmo and they confirm the situation. They can´t walk outsode when it´s dark, and to enter immegrantareas such as Rosengård, is totaly unthinkable. No doubt I will vote on the Swedish nationalistparty, the only one who dares talk about the immegrant problem. The only one who will kick ou the criminal immegrants. (Note: Only criminal, no more, no less)

[King Henry V]

The same thing is happening in Switzerland, although far more limited. 15 years ago, Geneva was the clean, safe plce which everyone associates with Switzerland. Shopping centres and train stations even had carpeting! Graffiti was next to zero and you could go almost anywhere without the fear of being mugged or anything. There was quite a large immigrant population, mostly well-to-do people from the Western world working at the international organisations and Italians, Spaniards and Portuguese working mostly in manual or low skill jobs. However, they all came from the similar Western Christian culture. However, things were not to last. Five years later, swarms of refugees from Kosovo and Bosnia came to Geneva, along with many Kurds "fleeing from Turkish oppresion". Immediately the crime levels rose up. The refugees from the Balkans traditionally had a very bandit-like and tribal culture, thus with nothing to do they turned to crime to supplement their income form the state (which was very high). A few years after that, Kurds stormed the U.N building upon the news that their leader had been found guilty ba a Turkish court for murder, treason and terrorism. In 1997, Zaire fell and Mobutu, its former leader, fled to Switzerland where he owned a lot of property. He also managed to bring many of his followers with him. Today the situation has changed. Places such as the train station and other once safe places are no-go areas at night. In a recent survey 67 percent of people never go to certain districts after dark.

[Ironside]

You can´t compare US or Australia with socialistic European countries e.g Sweden. In US and Australia you have to work hard, there is pressure on you when you arrive to the new land.
In Sweden we have such a high social subventions that some people who don´t work earn more money than an 8-hour hardworking cleaner. It´s bizarr! How can you earn more by refuse to work!? So people come here from distant lands, moving in to a getto outside some of the larger cities, and then are unemployed.
The problem with Rosengård is that it has transformed into a ghetto. Hard to get job, hard to get out, and almost zero contact with the outside world. It doesn't matter who lives there, those areas is always problematic. Swedish immigration politics got big holes in it.

And please show your sources better:


Recently, an Albanian youth was stabbed by an Arab, and was left bleeding to death on the ground while the ambulance waited for the police to arrive.

Doesn't stand in your source. A simular (same?) case is described in source three though (although in that case it didn't matter, he would have died anyway. The situation is very serious though).


The number of people emigrating from the city of Malmo is reaching record levels. Swedes, who a couple of decades ago decided to open the doors to Muslim "refugees" and asylum seekers, are now turned into refugees in their own country and forced to flee their homes. The people abandoning the city mention crime and fear of the safety of their children as the main reason for leaving. 14 000 Swedes left Malmo 2003.

The only thing standing in this source is that 14000 Swedes left Malmö 2003. It also mention that 13000 Swedes moved into Malmö the same year.


Earlier this year, a boy of Afghan origin had made plans to blow up his own school.
Not in the source.


Gang rapes, usually involving Muslim immigrant males and native Swedish girls, have become commonplace. Two weeks ago, 5 Kurds brutally raped a 13-year-old Swedish girl
Not in the source.


I have all resons in the world to be angry with muslims. There are 17 rapes every day and the muslims are here heavy overrepresentated.
Source on this one. Your last source mention 7 reported rapes a day, and while the actual number is higher, I would like to see how they came up with the number.


No doubt I will vote on the Swedish nationalistparty, the only one who dares talk about the immegrant problem. The only one who will kick ou the criminal immegrants. (Note: Only criminal, no more, no less)

Most criminal immigrants doing heavy crimes get deported already. And what are you going to do with criminals that is second generation? Deport them too?

[Idaho]

Are we a democracy now, i certainley beleive that were i live(UK) it isnt a democracy, we have been gaged by the government.

Gaged? Sounds painful!

Immigrants are 'pouring in from every port,' according to the Daily Mail. One million are 'ready to swamp the West,' it warns. The 'scum of the earth,' says the Dover Express, while the Star claims the 'flood is sinking Britain'.

Can you guess the year? Can you guess which immigrants they are talking about?


British traditions such as the Morris Minor and the Mini, designed by Greek refugee Alec Issigonis.

'Meals on wheels was pioneered by an Indian doctor in Battersea,' said curator Sarah Jillings. 'Fried fish was a Jewish tradition and chips came from Ireland.

All from here:Refugee Council (http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/news/2005/Mar05/curr0305_2.htm)

[Papewaio]

Idaho stop using logic and history. We all know they have no place in the heart of fear.

[Radier]

The same thing is happening in Switzerland, although far more limited. 15 years ago, Geneva was the clean, safe plce which everyone associates with Switzerland. Shopping centres and train stations even had carpeting! Graffiti was next to zero and you could go almost anywhere without the fear of being mugged or anything. There was quite a large immigrant population, mostly well-to-do people from the Western world working at the international organisations and Italians, Spaniards and Portuguese working mostly in manual or low skill jobs. However, they all came from the similar Western Christian culture. However, things were not to last. Five years later, swarms of refugees from Kosovo and Bosnia came to Geneva, along with many Kurds "fleeing from Turkish oppresion". Immediately the crime levels rose up. The refugees from the Balkans traditionally had a very bandit-like and tribal culture, thus with nothing to do they turned to crime to supplement their income form the state (which was very high). A few years after that, Kurds stormed the U.N building upon the news that their leader had been found guilty ba a Turkish court for murder, treason and terrorism. In 1997, Zaire fell and Mobutu, its former leader, fled to Switzerland where he owned a lot of property. He also managed to bring many of his followers with him. Today the situation has changed. Places such as the train station and other once safe places are no-go areas at night. In a recent survey 67 percent of people never go to certain districts after dark.

That is indeed sad. But the worst thing is, that the major parties refuse to see the truth. In Sweden, every on of the seven parties in our parliament satnd for more or less free immegration. The politicians, living in pure Swedish areas, says the immegration is "a blessing to our country" (Mona Sahlin). They are not the one whom having their kids beaten up and robbed.
It is the youth in Sweden that are affected the most by criminal immegrants. It´s not a coincident the nationalistparty have their largest support among the young.

Ironside the ´sources´are only articles that the text are refering from. Not all facts are in. And what does it realy matter if the article doesn´t tell the origin of the guy. We talk Malmo here, Rosengard, and it is no Swedes there so what is your point? It is not 17 rapes a day. It is 14, my bad... (still not 7, don´t know what you got that from).

Our prisons are full of immegrants. They shall be sent home instead of sitting here, costing money for us.

I want to ask you a honest question Ironside. Just answer yes or no.
Do you think the massive immegration has made Sweden to a better place to live in?

[Idaho]

That is indeed sad. But the worst thing is, that the major parties refuse to see the truth. In Sweden, every on of the seven parties in our parliament satnd for more or less free immegration....
I want to ask you a honest question Ironside. Just answer yes or no.
Do you think the massive immegration has made Sweden to a better place to live in?
Tell you what. Next time you are getting your office cleaned, or you see someone pushing a heavy wheelbarrow around a building site or someone washing up in a restaurant - go and ask them how much they earn. Ask yourself if you would do that job for that money.

... are you with me?

Now do you understand immigration?

[King Henry V]

Every society needs its low intelligence or badly educated workers. Wether they are natives or immigrants doesn't really matter. The trouble with Western society is that it gives these people the idea "You are better than this".

[Radier]

Tell you what. Next time you are getting your office cleaned, or you see someone pushing a heavy wheelbarrow around a building site or someone washing up in a restaurant - go and ask them how much they earn. Ask yourself if you would do that job for that money.

... are you with me?

Now do you understand immigration?

I don´t get your point here. You want immegration just because the immegrants shall do the hard work for us or what?
What they earn or not earn doesn´t matter. First, what has it to do with this debate? Second, the market shall set sallaries, not the state.

And for your information I am a in-debt-consult and earn 8$ an hour. I know alot of cleaners that make more money...

[Slyspy]

Bingo, we have a winner!

[Papewaio]

You can´t compare US or Australia with socialistic European countries e.g Sweden. In US and Australia you have to work hard, there is pressure on you when you arrive to the new land.

Actually I would say Australia is a fairly socialistic country. Free health, University (deferred via tax if you earn a high enough income), welfare, money for having babies, progressive tax brackets etc

[Radier]

Actually I would say Australia is a fairly socialistic country. Free health, University (deferred via tax if you earn a high enough income), welfare, money for having babies, progressive tax brackets etc

I thought you wasn´t allowed to enter Australia unless you fixed a job there. Is that only rumors? ~:confused:

[Papewaio]

No, there is an immigration point system which takes into account skill sets, degree, experience and money... getting into Aus is hard, but not that hard.

Working Visas are different from immigration.

[drone]

Surprised none of the Brits here have posted anything about this yet:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/08/05/london.bombings.blair/index.html


LONDON, England (CNN) -- British Prime Minister Tony Blair has announced new measures to deport and exclude from UK for those advocating hatred and violence.

Blair, speaking nearly a month after deadly bombings on London's transit system, said Friday the UK's human rights act would be amended if necessary to counter Islamic extremists.

The government also plans to draw up a list of extremist Web sites, book shops and organizations that promote these extremists, he said.

"Let no one be in any doubt that the rules of the game are changing," Blair told a London news conference, his last before breaking for a summer holiday.

The prime minister said the Government plans a one-month consultation period to determine new criteria for excluding and deporting people from Britain.

"We will establish, with the Muslim community, a commission to advise on how, consistent with people's complete freedom to worship in the way they want, and to follow their own religion and culture, there is better integration of those parts of the community presently inadequately integrated," Blair said.

Blair said new legislation, which is expected to be passed by the end of the year, will also outlaw "indirect incitement" of terrorism.

The measure is seen as an effort to crack down on extremist Islamic clerics who glorify acts of terrorism. In addition, the law would ban the training of terrorist techniques in Britain or in any other country.

"This is not, in any way whatever, aimed at the decent law-abiding Muslim community of Britain," Blair said.

"But if you come to this country from abroad, then don't meddle in extremism," he said. "Because if you meddle in it, and engage in it, you're going back out again."

Blair named two radical Islamic groups that would be banned from operating in Britain -- Hizb ut-Tahrir and the successor organization to al Muhajiroun.

Later, a spokesman for Hizb ut-Tahrir said the ban would stifle "legitimate political dissent."

"There will be serious repercussions in terms of community relations if this ban goes ahead," Imran Waheed told the UK's Press Association.

"We have a lot of support among the Muslim community in Britain and it will be seen by the Muslim community as stifling legitimate political dissent."

Friday's announcement of new anti-hatred measures came almost four weeks after three bombs exploded on the London Underground and a fourth exploded on a bus.

[Tribesman]

Surprised none of the Brits here have posted anything about this yet:
Yep , what hilarious proposals he has put forward to be new law , completelty unworkable .
So is it a knee-jerk reaction , or just the reaction of a jerk ?
Under these proposals just about everyone in the backroom is guilty under these "laws" , also most of the politicians in the world . ~:confused:
Handing the terrorists a winning hand , well done Tony , heres to living in fear ~:cheers:

[Ironside]

Ironside the ´sources´are only articles that the text are refering from. Not all facts are in. And what does it realy matter if the article doesn´t tell the origin of the guy. We talk Malmo here, Rosengard, and it is no Swedes there so what is your point? It is not 17 rapes a day. It is 14, my bad... (still not 7, don´t know what you got that from).


Varje dag våldtas sju kvinnor i Sverige, det är ändå bara den officiella siffran. Det så kallade mörkertalet är enligt all expertis MINST lika stort. Alltså har vi 14 våldtäkter per dag.


I want to ask you a honest question Ironside. Just answer yes or no.
Do you think the massive immegration has made Sweden to a better place to live in?
Considering that I got no problems with my alien neighbours (biggest problem have come from a Fin and a Norweigian, not the Kurds, Russians or Burmanese), they got jobs and the fact that borth my parents name is Valonian (correct? Worker immigrants from 1700-th century), do I consider the immigration to be good.

Is Rosengård a big immigration failure? Yes.


And for your information I am a in-debt-consult and earn 8$ an hour. I know alot of cleaners that make more money...
You live on that low salary? Man it must be tough to be kicked out from home at age 17. :no: ~;)

[Tribesman]

You live on that low salary? Man it must be tough to be kicked out from home at age 17.
So is this a case of a poor marginalised young man wishing to blame all his problems on them damn immigrants ?
Radier , ever heard of Idi Amin ? He had all the answers to your problems ~;)