Shame on us

[Don Corleone]

Well, seems we've done it again. Another famine, another one that the UN World Food Program predicted, and once again, thousands of children are starving to death in ways that were predicted over 8 months ago. I am ashamed as a person, for my lack of action, as an American, for my country's and as a human being, for the lack of action on anyone's part.

I saw this at the gym on my lunch hour today. It was all I could do not to start crying when you watched a 10 month old baby too hungry & weak to scream as his skin started falling off...


May God have mercy on us all... (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/07/27/btsc.koinange/)

[Sasaki Kojiro]

. Why should we have to pay for something that is squarely Europe's fault?

So little kids don't starve to death.

[Don Corleone]

It's not something you can throw money at, but it's this "It's not my fault" attitude that has babies dying across the globe. It is my fault if there's something I could have done and didn't. There was, and I didn't do it. Whether it's more or less my fault than somebody else's, I don't think really matters, and I'm sure it's not going to be an acceptable explanation when I face the Lord.

I'm looking for a non-partisan/non-agenda driven organization that deals with ending hunger. The World Hunger Project looks like they do good work, but it's clear from their website they are advocating marxism (and maybe, after my research is finished, I'll be left to conclude that's the only way to deal with this problem).

All I know is starting today, everything is on the table. I will not rest until I know I have done what I can to ease my conscience. Any help people can offer pointing me towards a group that is interested in solving hunger & disease, and doesn't focus on global income redistribution as the way to do it, I'm all ears...

[Don Corleone]

I'm not talking about sending money to Africa that could have been spent to solve hunger here. I'm saying as a fiscal conservative, there is more than enough slough in our world financial systems that hunger need not exist anywhere. I believe in a free market, but I do not believe in people dying for profitability. Hunger should go the way of polio.

[Byzantine Prince]

How about the US stop supporting dictatorial governments like the one in Sudan? How about that?

How about we let some of them become communist? They are all dirt poor anyways, what's the harm?

[Kagemusha]

Why we always have to blame someone or some organization on every shitty thing that happends around the Globe.Does it help those children dying in hunger,if they now who is to blame.If UN knew this would happen 8 months ago,and we didnt do anything about it.Its our fault,all of us. :bow:

[Don Corleone]

How about the US stop supporting dictatorial governments like the one in Sudan? How about that?

How about we let some of them become communist? They are all dirt poor anyways, what's the harm?

If you want to start a thread about the politics of Africa, be my guest. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't clutter this one up with that kind of talk.

I did find this site: Bread For the World (http://www.bread.org/) They seem to be pretty non/bi-partisan. Anybody know much about them?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Why don't we get rid of farm subsidies so that poor countries can grow their own corn? Sure it would make corn more expensive but that would mean less big macs, soda pop and snack chips and therefore less fat people. Would that work?

[Don Corleone]

Why we always have to blame someone or some organization on every shitty thing that happends around the Globe.Does it help those children dying in hunger,if they now who is to blame.If UN knew this would happen 8 months ago,and we didnt do anything about it.Its our fault,all of us. :bow:

Amen. My conscience can't take another round of this, so this is the famine that got me off my fat ass.

[Templar Knight]

Fully agree kagemusha. This is world problem, finger pointing is not a solution :bow:

[Kagemusha]

World problem my ass. I didn't go over to africa and steal anyone's food, so I don't want my taxes going there.

If you read that article,nobody did steal their food.They lost their crops and now they are suffering from it.Its your choice not to care about your fellow human beings,its your choice and you are entitled to it.

[Xiahou]

How about the US stop supporting dictatorial governments like the one in Sudan? How about that?

How about we let some of them become communist? They are all dirt poor anyways, what's the harm?
I believe the US supported classifying to attrocities in the Sudan as genocide. Wasn't it European countries that blocked that declaration? You might find fault with US policies, but I don't think you're going to make hay with that instance.

Don, it's not as simple as aid. Yes, in the short term relief agencies are saving lives and feeding starving people is a worthwhile pursuit for them. But, its not going to do anything in the long term to prevent these situations from happening again and again. Many of the poorest African governments are little more than corrupt, socialist dictatorships. Since the 60's, these African nations have recieved over $500 billion dollars in aid- yet the people there have got poorer and poorer.

It's going to take real government and market reforms to impact the situation in Africa. From our perspective, we can break down trade barriers and end farm subsidies but, I think that's only part of the problem- private property rights are regularly trampled and much of the agricultural land is 'collectivized' in government (corrupt) hands. Unfortunately, there is only so much we can effectively do- the bulk of the reforms will have to come from the Africans themselves. What we can do is get out of their way by not propping up the corrupt regimes with misguided aid and debt-relief.

I also think, as Cube seems to, that the Western 'we know better than you' mentality is also hurting Africans. How many Africans die from malaria and other diseases because we won't allow the use of DDT? Sure, it's great that we can ban it- but we don't have the same level of problems as well as having the resources for dealing with it via other means. For Africans it would literally be a life-saver and many of their health officials are begging to be able to employ it.

But then again, I'm hardly an expert on African poverty and only know what I know from cursory reading on the issue. :shrug:

[Don Corleone]

Niger is a unique case. It's not a corrupt banana republic that has indemic problems. It had two droughts in a row, and in the 3rd season (last summer) they had the worst locust invasion anybody had seen in 15 years. You can do the math.

I know you need to look at all aspects of the problem and deal with all of them. I don't think I absolve myself of any blame by writing a check and forgetting about it.

But one day, I'm going to be explaining to Jesus either "Yes, Lord, as you said, I did what I could for the least of these", or I'll be forced to come back with "Well, I always meant to get around to doing something.... besides there were plenty of people more responsible than me".

What's more, after watching that footage at lunch, I feel ashamed of myself. Even if I was an atheist, I'd be having serious attacks of conscience right now.

By the way, that Bread for the World site is more of a 'dealing with long term issues' through letter writing and attempting to guide policy. It's not a hunger relief site. Again, anybody know of any good organizations that are seeking to end hunger and not push a political agenda?

[tibilicus]

World problem my ass. I didn't go over to africa and steal anyone's food, so I don't want my taxes going there.


That to me seems a bit harsh. I wonder if you were starving , your crops had just died and all your family was in dire need of food you would keep that same attitude. The world can not cooperate as a civil society with out help from others around you. Have a look at some of the pictures that's how shocking it is. Please just bare a thought for those dying and starving at this very moment.

[Xiahou]

Again, anybody know of any good organizations that are seeking to end hunger and not push a political agenda?
Unfortunately, Don, one is not going to happen without the other. All aid organizations can do is, at best, treat hunger- they'll never end it without political change. From your own article:


To make it worse, the rainy season has arrived, and diseases are aid workers' biggest concern.

Malaria is already the biggest killer of children under 2 years old in Africa, and it will claim the lives of many children in Niger, because they are out in the bush, exposed to a rampant mosquito population.

The help that is on the way is too little, too late, some aid workers say. Talk of aid coming has been heard before.

Several aid agencies are on the ground in southern Niger, and they say it's already too late for many children, thousands of whom have died, hundreds of thousands of whom are threatened with imminent death.If we in the West could get over ourselves and allow them to use DDT, the mosquito infestions and malaria epidemics could be all but eradicated. But no, we're letting thousands of humans die because it could, maybe, impact bird populations?

[Don Corleone]

Well, all I'm saying is every long term aid relief website I've been to talks about "and in order to solve hunger long term, we need to reexamine wealth in the world, and why any one person is allowed to own anything". That is definitely NOT what I'm signing up for.

There has to be enough food, medicine & financial resources for transportation of said food & medicince to see to it that hunger and curable diseases are gone. I don't see why we need to force global socialism on people in order to accomplish this.

[Kagemusha]

I donate money to Unicef.Its under UN.Ive been "brainwashed" to do that.Here we have every year a day called nälkä päivä=hunger day.When in all puplic organizations (Schools,army,goverment offices).Everybody eats porridge and the rest of the food budget for that day is given to unicef.I picked up a habbit and i donate money to Unicef on that day once a year.Its not much but something. :bow:

[Don Corleone]

That's actually similar to some of the habits I have Kangemusha. But let's face it, neither your contributions, nor mine, are really hurting us or helping them. I don't even think it has to be painful, but it does have to be effective.

[Byzantine Prince]

I think we are overlooking a glaring issue. African nations have some of the highest growth rates in terms of population in the world. If we simply feed them and send money over there constantly without political reforms we are NOT helping them!

We are simply making the whole bigger, because their populations will rise in unsurpassed rates and we will not even be able to feed them and still feed ourselves.

This will only be fixed plitically Don. Don't tell me to keep that out of the discussion. You may not see what's probably going to hapen there but I do.

Yes Niger is probably a special case and sending them aid is good, but if they need aid every single year with no sign of improvement then my case for the subject stands.

[Kagemusha]

I agree Don.But it seems that the volunteer organizations that provide food and other help to Africa,all has somekind of political agenda.I think what Unicef does is more or less neutral among the others.The whole situation in Africa just makes me sad.But isnt there a organization called Doctors around the globe.(Im not sure if this is their english name).I think ive heard of an organization whos members are Doctors and other medical staff.I think these guys are professionals.Not just bunch of idealists.

[Don Corleone]

I think we are overlooking a glaring issue. African nations have some of the highest growth rates in terms of population in the world. If we simply feed them and send money over there constantly without political reforms we are NOT helping them!

We are simply making the whole bigger, because their populations will rise in unsurpassed rates and we will not even be able to feed them and still feed ourselves.

This will only be fixed plitically Don. Don't tell me to keep that out of the discussion. You may not see what's probably going to hapen there but I do.

Yes Niger is probably a special case and sending them aid is good, but if they need aid every single year with no sign of improvement then my case for the subject stands.

Okay, BP, just to prove to you that I don't live under a rock, let me point out a few facts to you:

-Fact: It was the United States, not Canada and not Europe that brokered a peace deal between the rebels & the government in the Sudan in January. It was this peace deal that allowed for power sharing that put VP Garang into office in the first place.

-Fact: There are ways to encourage intelligent population control. That doesn't mean that the Western World should pay for a Planned Parethood clinic in every village in Africa.

-Fact: The world already produces enough food to guarantee that there need never be hunger again, anywhere. The fact that it exists is obscene.

-Fact: If you go search the web, you will find that most organizations dedicated to ending world hunger link that issue to forced income redistribution. One shouldn't be forced to become a Marxist in order to work to end hunger.

I'm not saying we cannot talk about the political causes and solutions to hunger. I'm saying that blaming the US solely for the troubles in the Sudan, as you did earlier is 1) foolishly ignorant and wrong 2) not helping feeding a single person.

[A.Saturnus]

As much as it pains me to say but what BP says cannot be dismissed lightly. It´s not just a question of "do it or don´t do it". There´s simply no quick answer on how we can help Africa. Sure, we can send food to Niger now. And to the next famine and the next. But there is a very real possibility that helping during a famine will ensure that we will have to help during the next as well. Africa´s problem is rooted deeply: they have much more people than their corrupted societies can care for. And only a fundamental change in the sociocultural makeup of their societies can change that.
I know, you might say that I´m making it myself easy by saying the issue is too complex for me to solve, and I guess that´s actually true in a way. But the issue is complex. I see a very big problem coming, much bigger than anything we have seen so far and I have no idea how to prevent it. What´s the better excuse, being too lazy or too dumb to help? :embarassed:

[Don Corleone]

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter Saturnus, and your 2nd post for that matter, BP. I simply don't see how declaring the US soley to blame for the Sudan has anything to do with solving hunger in Botswana, Peru, or even the US for that matter.

I understand fully that systemic changes beyond 'grow more food' need to be implemented. Hell, look at all the relief agency food that sat on the docks & rotted in Somalia back in 1992 because the warlords were using famine as a weapon.

But you know, at the end of the day, you don't have to solve it all. You just have to do what you can. And we haven't.

[Devastatin Dave]

I'm in support of debt relief, its not like you'll ever get the money back anyway. Don, there are many churches that do missionary work and oftem adopt entire villages and support those villiages with education, financial support, and even man power to help build homes and school houses. The key to helping the African plight is a two way street. Help them help themselves. Unfortunately I as well as many others don't do enough. I sae that program myself earlier last week and was deeply moved. Many times in the past I've said, "Not my problem", but since seeing that news cast I've changed my mind. Staring into the eyes of a helpless human being, even through a TV screen, has changed my mind. I'm shamed as well. I'm going to look into what my church does for the folks in Africa. I know we have missions that go there yearly. I've got to do something and I'm sure, whatever political belief you or anyone else on the Org have, have it in them to do more. And for those that are already helping these people, God bless you.

[Strike For The South]

Giving aid is great I do it and its a great feeling...but BP is right when he says something needs to be done about growth rates,Aids,Genocide. that might ease some of the suffering. (Niger definitely has had some horrible luck though)

[JAG]

It has been over the news here for a few days, it is a shame on all of us, I totally agree with you Don.

I also don't see how there is a conflict between giving aid / food etc and wanting political reforms home and in the African countries themselves. Both can and should be done, we shouldn't really be bickering about which is more important, but doing all of them.

[PanzerJaeger]

I agree fully with Cube.. Africa is not America's responsibility and as long as we have significant problems with poverty in this country its irresponsible to try and fix African problems.

And if your conscience is killing you Don, give money to some Christian charities, they do a hell of a lot more good than the child-raping UN.

[Lazul]

Africa is the way it couse ever since Europe and America and Asia to I would say became more powerfull then Africa they have raped the nation.
They divided Africa between themselfs with no respect for cultural and ethnic borders.
Africa can produce alot of food, africa got huge amounts of natural resourses and africa has potential. But what it all comes down to are the wars, endless wars and conflicts that we of the west do little to stop.

In the ancient times kingdomes could justifie their existance and ruling due to the fact that they could organize food production and then store away the surpluss so when the drought came, wich they knew allways came from time to time they could take the stored food and deliever it to the needy.

I doubt that nations in africa has become so backwards that they cant do what ancient kingdomes had the capability to do then. The reason african nations often dont have the capability to store away surplus food is couse most money goes to the army since there is allways one or two conflicts in a bordering nation.

Peace = less money to the military = more money to produce food.
The west shouldnt just thorw money at africa but focus on making peace and the rest will solve itself.

well thats all I got to say about that. :bow:

(oh, and if a nation wants to go Socialist or Communist, for the love of your God! Dont stop them!)

[Lazul]

And if your conscience is killing you Don, give money to some Christian charities, they do a hell of a lot more good than the child-raping UN.


what!? my friend in the UN is a child rapist! NOOOooooo....

rather silly comment there Panzy

[PanzerJaeger]

You may want to read a bit about the UN "mission" in the Congo.. that is, if you have a strong stomach. :no:

[Don Corleone]

I don't think I made myself very clear if people think I saw the famine footage and decided I just needed to do something to help the famine victims. I saw the famine footage and I had an epiphany, a simple thought entered my mind, There is absolutely no reason for hunger anywhere in the world. Yes, by all means, it is incumbent on me to try to end it here in the United States. It's also incumbent on me to try to end it wherever else it exists.

I found a charity I actually think takes a great approach. It's called Project Heifer (http://www.heifer.org). It was featured on 60 Minutes (but don't let that slow you down). Rather than feeding people, their approach is more long term. The money you donate buys an animal that is given to a member of a village someplace. They also are trained on how to care for and raise the animal. When the animal has offspring, the pass the gift on to other members of their village. Their big focus is long term sustainable strategies.

For short-term, urgent relief, I sponsored a child on World Vision (http://www.worldvision.org). I know I need to learn more, do more, but for the time being, until I know more, this is as good as anything I can come up with.

If anybody's interested in finding a charity that meets their personal requirements for giving, I HIGHLY recommend Charity Navigator (http://www.charitynavigator.org) It helps you find charities for any cause you think needs your help, will tell you how well they do in terms of transferring funds to actual project work, what the CEO's salary is, and how that charity stacks up against others doing the same work.

[Azi Tohak]

So let me get this straight...

1. We feed little Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin. They grow up happy.
2. Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin make more little Mr and Mrs Starvin Marvin
3. Mommy and Daddy can't feed the little ones so now we get to feed the little ones in addition to the big ones
4. The little ones grow up and then make a third generation. And we get to feed them too.
5. Where does it end?

Don, I like you and I respect you. But I don't see why I should give a crap about the worlds largest virus maker. The continent used to able to feed itself. Now it can't. Why is that? Too many people. How do you get rid of too many people? They die. What makes the death of one little kid in Africa any sadder than the death of one little kid in the US or Europe?

Also, as GC pointed out:


In the United States, 13 million children live in households where people have to skip meals or eat less to make ends meet. That means one in ten households in the U.S. are living with hunger or are at risk of hunger.

We don't follow the same pattern as Africa does. I know France doesn't for example (what, 1.2 kids per woman? oh crap...). I don't think we can fix Africa's starving problems. But we can fix the problems in the US and Europe. I will check out your sites Don. Personally, I've always liked the Salvation Army.

Azi

[Xiahou]

The continent used to able to feed itself. Now it can't. Why is that? Too many people. How do you get rid of too many people? They die. What makes the death of one little kid in Africa any sadder than the death of one little kid in the US or Europe?I don't think it's that simple. The continent of Africa has a lower population density than the US, and is much lower than many European countries, yet no one is claiming that they have too many people. I won't outline my thoughts again (I did earlier in this thread), but the problem manifold and certainly just throwing money or debt relief at Africans is going to accomplish little or nothing helpful.

[kiwitt]

I agree Don. There is no reason for hunger in the world. However, some people in power will see them as "useless eaters" (do a search on this), with nothing to add. I think every person has a right to basic human rights, and getting good food and water is one of those. It has been said many times. If just 10% of what is spent on the Military is diverted to these causes properly, the world would be a better place.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I also don't see how there is a conflict between giving aid / food etc and wanting political reforms home and in the African countries themselves. Both can and should be done, we shouldn't really be bickering about which is more important, but doing all of them.
So we should just suck it up and give to the People's Red Bread Basket Organization? (Yeah, I made it up. Humor me.)

[Azi Tohak]

I don't think it's that simple. The continent of Africa has a lower population density than the US, and is much lower than many European countries, yet no one is claiming that they have too many people.

I know. Because you can't point out that maybe... just maybe... Africa can't support as many people as there are. Which means there should be fewer people. But that means people die. Which is bad. M'kay?

So why are they starving? Too dumb to farm? Soil gone from poor farming practices? (look at the ever expanding blob of the Sahara) Nothing is going to bring that back. Kicking out all the competent farmers because they are a different color (see my Farming thread here in the Backroom)?

What I don't understand is why hunger is 'curable' now. See my previous post for the story of Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin. We feed them... they just come back stronger... If an area can't support the number of people there are, maybe those people shouldn't be there?

I'm not saying I don't think it is sad about the people there. I'm saying that there will always be hunger. Just like there will always be hatred, emnity, disparity.

Azi

[sharrukin]

Is there a cut off date for "blame the west" excuses? The year 2050 perhaps? 2100 AD? When? When does Africa accept responsibility for it's own screwed up situation? I live in Canada, others Australia, NZ, America. These were once colonies as well. South America, Asia, the Pacific, in fact just about every place on earth was a european colony at one time or another! So why is Africa a basketcase? Colonialism is an excuse everyone has, and it just doesn't wash.

I feel sorry for those poor people, but not the slightest bit guilty or ashamed. They are the one's who should be ashamed for doing nothing about the problems while famine after famine takes their friends and neighbours!

This guy says pretty much what I think.

“In as much as I agree that slavery, exploitation, and colonialism in all its forms is evil, inhumane, sinful and injurious -- we have had time to correct some of the imbalances and injustices; we have had time to map our future and our destiny; we've had time to climb the highest mountains.” We use slavery and colonialism as a cop-out. We blame the West for everything real and imagined that has ever happened to the continent and her people. This must stop!


http://www.nigeriavillagesquare1.com/Articles/Abidde/2005/07/africa-and-world-responding-to-paul.html

[Redleg]

Well the shame is on us in the western world - especially for taking Don's thread about his shame from not fully understanding the crisis - and turning it into the standard us verus them thread.

Yes indeed Don - shame on us all for allowing stravation to still exist - primarily because of politics.

Shame on us indeed for debating politics instead of helping Don find a worthwhile charity that will suit his needs for contributing to help solve a problem.

[Xiahou]

Is there a cut off date for "blame the west" excuses? The year 2050 perhaps? 2100 AD? When? When does Africa accept responsibility for it's own screwed up situation?
As soon as we stop contributing to the situation Id say. Throwing piles of cash at the problem allows western governments to pat each other on the back and say how charitable we are- but it does little or nothing to solve problems and in many cases allows them to grow worse.

[Don Corleone]

I don't think we need to blame ourselves as the creators of Africa's problems. Surely, as others have said, if they had the will to fix their problems, they would have by now. And in some cases, they're making improvements. In others, well...

My sense of shame and guilt has nothing to do with past colonialism and everything to do with the fact that while I was working out in the gym today at lunch, I literally watched a child starve to death. I watched another one scream and cry in agony at first as pieces of his flesh fell off from his weakened state causing a staph infection, then getting too weak to cry. By the end of the piece, he was dead too.

Is this a plaintitively emotive appeal? God damned right. I'm not a sociopath, and I won't pretend it didn't affect me.

Does Africa need long term solutions to deeper seeded problems then where their next meals are coming from? Of course. But do you honestly think those children give a rat's ass about reforming their governments or what our colonial ancestors did to their local ancestors while they're puking up blood and sneezing their sinus passages out right now?

[mystic brew]

So let me get this straight...

1. We feed little Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin. They grow up happy.
and become more prosperous.


2. Mr and Mrs Starvin' Marvin make more little Mr and Mrs Starvin Marvin
3. Mommy and Daddy can't feed the little ones so now we get to feed the little ones in addition to the big one.
4. The little ones grow up and then make a third generation. And we get to feed them too.
5. Where does it end?

Well, in the end, as countries become more prosperous, the birth rate tends to fall. Emergent middle classes tend not to have as many children, so contribute more dollars to the economy, helping with reducing the aid required. So i wouldn't necassarily view it as a bottomless pit.

Alos to be honest, the ammount of money given out by all countries is pretty small (relative to the size of the economy.
The OECD set a target of 0.7% of GNP for aid for its members. Most countries aren't even giving that much at the moment.

And there are easy ways to make the money given go further, such as the 'untying' of aid. This could, in real terms, make a 30% increase in the value of aid given. in some area it might as much as double the real value.

[mystic brew]

So, Don, if you are looking for a way to make a real difference, look for an organisation that also supports the untying of aid.

At the moment, the money starts at governments, they give to local/international institutions, NGOs and so on down the line.

But they put conditions on its use, so the money can only be used to buy goods etc from the country the money came from. Imagine the carnage this produces in the buerocracy of the aid organisations.

So we need to make the Aid agencys more decision making ability. At the moment the thing is so cumbersome.

This isn't a panacea, but it they agencys can buy locally, they can get much more bang for buck, by using the money to help aid the locals in the local economies, as well as hunting around for good deals internationally.

[Devastatin Dave]

I don't think we need to blame ourselves as the creators of Africa's problems. Surely, as others have said, if they had the will to fix their problems, they would have by now. And in some cases, they're making improvements. In others, well...

My sense of shame and guilt has nothing to do with past colonialism and everything to do with the fact that while I was working out in the gym today at lunch, I literally watched a child starve to death. I watched another one scream and cry in agony at first as pieces of his flesh fell off from his weakened state causing a staph infection, then getting too weak to cry. By the end of the piece, he was dead too.

Is this a plaintitively emotive appeal? God damned right. I'm not a sociopath, and I won't pretend it didn't affect me.

Does Africa need long term solutions to deeper seeded problems then where their next meals are coming from? Of course. But do you honestly think those children give a rat's ass about reforming their governments or what our colonial ancestors did to their local ancestors while they're puking up blood and sneezing their sinus passages out right now?

I had the exact same feelings when I saw the coverage. That child looked like my son, same age and all. To think of my children in that condition, God have mercy. Then I thought of the parent's misery and agony to see their children die like that. I will never know such suffering, it was 5 minutes of extreme feelings of pain and heartfelt agony for those people. Then CNN went to another story. That's the shame I felt. Its like when I worked in a Korean orphanage when I was stationed there every other week. I only provided those children one day every two weeks the love and care they DESERVED and NEEDED, then I was back to my own world. Stuff like this makes you look at yourself in the mirror. Don, I appreciate this thread because of my self absorbtion, i had put those images of those starving and helpless people in the back of my mind, now its where it should be. I agree that we can't just throw money at the problem or play politics with it. But I do think everyone could pull together to help these people. If the UN could clean up its act and be completely open and transparent about its policies then I would happily support them and would encouraged my representatives in my country to assist the UN any way it can...

[Devastatin Dave]

I'm going to admit here: Niger is a unique case. They are starving because of droughts, and it is something you can just throw excess money and food at; and it's not something that would be a continual money sink.

My main problem is with the nations that have the corrupt warlords and dictators, and can't seem to stop waging civil war against eachother.

Agreed, but there has got to be a way. There has to be an answer. ~:confused:

[Don Corleone]

And there's plenty of ways to see the money gets there without going through the UN!!! If you want to give to a Christian charity, go to World Vision. If you'd prefer a humanist one, go to CARE. There's literally dozens of groups that are trying to solve the famine. Doctors Without Borders! I mean for Christ's sake... Pat Robertson & Susan Sarandon do not share television space on an issue ad over a passing fancy people!

I totally agree, putting Africans on aid is a long term disaster. Their governments will turn that aid on and off to directly affect their powerbase. But what if in the short run, we fixed the gaping wound in our humanity, and then work towards a better, more sustainable solution in the long term? One that makes Africans and South Americans and Asians, and Americans and Europeans for that matter, economically self sufficient? That should appeal to even the hardest hearted cash-capitalist out there... it did for me! Pay now, get them self sufficient and save yourself a fortune in the long run.

And one last thing. Anybody out there that calls themself a Christian and turns a blind eye... remember the warning Christ laid on us when He talked of those who would not feed Him when he was hungry... and remember how pleased He was with those who fed the hungry. How can you possibly say you follow Him and turn a blind eye to this?

[Devastatin Dave]

And one last thing. Anybody out there that calls themself a Christian and turns a blind eye... remember the warning Christ laid on us when He talked of those who would not feed Him when he was hungry... and remember how pleased He was with those who fed the hungry. How can you possibly say you follow Him and turn a blind eye to this?

And for that, I am ashamed for my attitude and lack of effort for the plight of the needy. God forgive me...

[sharrukin]

I don't think we need to blame ourselves as the creators of Africa's problems. Surely, as others have said, if they had the will to fix their problems, they would have by now. And in some cases, they're making improvements. In others, well...

My sense of shame and guilt has nothing to do with past colonialism and everything to do with the fact that while I was working out in the gym today at lunch, I literally watched a child starve to death. I watched another one scream and cry in agony at first as pieces of his flesh fell off from his weakened state causing a staph infection, then getting too weak to cry. By the end of the piece, he was dead too.

Is this a plaintitively emotive appeal? God damned right. I'm not a sociopath, and I won't pretend it didn't affect me.

Does Africa need long term solutions to deeper seeded problems then where their next meals are coming from? Of course. But do you honestly think those children give a rat's ass about reforming their governments or what our colonial ancestors did to their local ancestors while they're puking up blood and sneezing their sinus passages out right now?

Did giving money to the Ukrainian childrens fund help those starving children under Stalins regime?

Would giving money to Hitlers Germany have helped starving jews or Slavs?

The governments ARE the problem.

What if charity is the problem, not any help at all?

Very few people want to see starving people, especially children. I know I don't. The question is, how do we stop it? I mean really end it! Not just for a little while.

Africa has the resources which is why western companies are there to begin with. So they have the wealth to effect change. By us jumping in every time these things happen aren't we rewarding failure?

The Christian charity funds are usually the best, from what I have heard as the most money gets to it's final destination with them.

[Don Corleone]

Sharrukin, I am glad you asked that!

Short term:
CARE, Doctors w/out Borders, Oxfam, World Vision, a whole of others. They are not trying to feed Niger forever, they're trying to get these people out of the mess mother nature put them in. They don't work with governments, they set up AID stations and ignore the government.

Long term:
ONE, Project Heifer,the Peace Corps, again, a whole bunch of others. Dealing more with making poor people's live viable & sustainable. Focusing on addressing the root causes of extreme povery and hunger. Also go about bypassing crooked governments and warlords.

The fact is, there is something you can do to help people today, and there's also something you can do to help people long term. You can do both today. I agree, they are not the same thing, but both are urgently needed.

[sharrukin]

Sharrukin, I am glad you asked that!

Short term:
CARE, Doctors w/out Borders, Oxfam, World Vision, a whole of others. They are not trying to feed Niger forever, they're trying to get these people out of the mess mother nature put them in. They don't work with governments, they set up AID stations and ignore the government.

Long term:
ONE, Project Heifer,the Peace Corps, again, a whole bunch of others. Dealing more with making poor people's live viable & sustainable. Focusing on addressing the root causes of extreme povery and hunger. Also go about bypassing crooked governments and warlords.

The fact is, there is something you can do to help people today, and there's also something you can do to help people long term. You can do both today. I agree, they are not the same thing, but both are urgently needed.

Don, I wish, I really do wish you were right!

Maybe I am just too cynical here, but isn't this just the modern day version of Christian missionaries going in to clothe the natives and teach them to be good Christians. Colonialism brought them food and medicine which accelerated their birth rate, or rather, more correctly, lowered their death rate. Eventually the governmental structures and farming technology was outstripped by population growth. The endemic coups, insurgencies, corruption, civil and tribal conflicts exposed the population to famine and disease. This is the result of what people would call the good things colonialism brought such as medicine, better crops, and improved farming techniques.

This has been going on for at least 40 years, and year after year we see starving children and announcements of yet another plan to save Africa. It's gone from JFK's Peace Corps volunteers to Bob Geldof. Things have gotten worse, not better! Something is wrong with Africa and more of the same isn't going to fix it. Maybe it's time for us to stop playing god because, quite bluntly we suck at it!

I would very much like to be wrong about this!



You can do both today. I agree, they are not the same thing, but both are urgently needed.

My fear is that we are sabotaging the long term prospects of Africa by indulging in the short term goal. African dependency may be the problem.

[PanzerJaeger]

I don't think we need to blame ourselves as the creators of Africa's problems. Surely, as others have said, if they had the will to fix their problems, they would have by now. And in some cases, they're making improvements. In others, well...

My sense of shame and guilt has nothing to do with past colonialism and everything to do with the fact that while I was working out in the gym today at lunch, I literally watched a child starve to death. I watched another one scream and cry in agony at first as pieces of his flesh fell off from his weakened state causing a staph infection, then getting too weak to cry. By the end of the piece, he was dead too.

Is this a plaintitively emotive appeal? God damned right. I'm not a sociopath, and I won't pretend it didn't affect me.

Does Africa need long term solutions to deeper seeded problems then where their next meals are coming from? Of course. But do you honestly think those children give a rat's ass about reforming their governments or what our colonial ancestors did to their local ancestors while they're puking up blood and sneezing their sinus passages out right now?

What about starving children in America?

You shouldnt let this become a competition as to who can make you feel worse about yourself. Im sure I can find some pretty nasty looking poor people in this country you can throw your money at.. ~:handball:

[Franconicus]

If somebody needs help, if lizzel children are suffering then it is not the time to ask who has done something wrong, whose fault it is. We should help! I totally agree with you, Don.

I know the 'Brot für die Welt' program here in Germany. It is from the Catholic church. They collect money tofight hunger in the world. Do not know if 'Bread for the World' is the same.

[Franconicus]

What about starving children in America?

You shouldnt let this become a competition as to who can make you feel worse about yourself. Im sure I can find some pretty nasty looking poor people in this country you can throw your money at.. ~:handball:
Do you do it?

[Ironside]

If we in the West could get over ourselves and allow them to use DDT, the mosquito infestions and malaria epidemics could be all but eradicated. But no, we're letting thousands of humans die because it could, maybe, impact bird populations?

The DDT issue isn't exactly a strong argument.
Affecting the bird population equals messing up the eco-system and birds isn't the only thing affected by it. It will kill of humans (in cancer) and other animals high up in the food chain.

And if you don't feel that this is enough, those mosquitos gets immune from DDT after a while...

It's a really effective substance. ~:rolleyes:

[JAG]

Don - there is a group set up for aid to Niger, formed by the most prominent charities over here, you can donate there via http://www.dec.org.uk/ if you are still after some way to help.

I thoroughly endorse them, they will not waste your money.

[Productivity]

Agreed, but there has got to be a way. There has to be an answer. ~:confused:

I don't know if it's the answer, but Africa isn't inherently flawed. There are deep seated problems with it, certainly, but there are a few countries that work. Botswana works really well - I'm just not sure how to get other countries to that point. Is the UN the answer? Probably not - too many vested interests. I've been wrangling with this question since I started studying economics - I've got all the theories about growth etc. the question is how to implement them.

The best I've managed to come up with is that the global community, must do everything it can to help a country that is genuinely trying to get out. This means everytime a group genuinely trys something that is on a sound basis, we've got to give them what they need - no matter if it's advice, money, military support etc. We've got to stop propping up dictators. We've got to stop playing politics with people. Maybe if we can get a few countries genuinely working, a few more will follow and then a few more. Is it worth doing a deal with the devil to fix a country? Bribe a dictator out of power?

Will this solve hunger now? No, certainly not. It probably wont solve it for the next generation either. But somewhere down the track, hopefully a generation wont go hungry.

Will this ever happen? Probably not. Maybe I can see some bright spots - I think the Australian intervention in the Sollomon Islands was a good start. Maybe that sad nation will have a genuine new chance. But there aren't a hell of a lot of bright spots, and for every bright spot there are five pits of darkness - convenient dictatorships etc.

This is not a rant against America. This is not a rant against anyone directly, except the international community. It's time we stopped playing politics with the lives of millions. If you can show me a good reason why we are letting millions of this generation die, and millions (billions) of future generations die, I will (with the utmost sorrow) accept that it has to happen. But nobody has shown me a reason yet.

[Xiahou]

The DDT issue isn't exactly a strong argument.
Affecting the bird population equals messing up the eco-system and birds isn't the only thing affected by it. It will kill of humans (in cancer) and other animals high up in the food chain.

And if you don't feel that this is enough, those mosquitos gets immune from DDT after a while...

It's a really effective substance. ~:rolleyes:They only gain some level of immunity when it's used improperly- but even then it maintains a repellant effect. Links to bird "birth rate" declines and cancer are tenuous at best, you may want to check this (http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm) out from Junkscience.com. And, even if you buy all the risks, DDT has saved hundreds of millions of lives while in use and would likely save millions in Africa were they allowed to use it sensibly. Instead, millions die from malaria that would be easily prevented if not for PC constraints- it could be virtually eradicated with DDTs responsible use for public health. Its important to remember that over 90% of its usage, and therefore its presence in the environment was for agricultural use, like protecting cotton crops. Allowing it to be used for public health would be in far lower levels than it had been used previously.