Profanity in Historic Fiction

[The Shadow One]

Okay, here's the question:

When did we start using the, uh, word? You know the one I mean. The one that always makes your mother hiccup when you say it.

Seriously. I'm always a bit taken back when I read a novel or story set a hundred years ago or more and everyone's using the word. Did they really use it back then?

My thought is no. But I can see two schools of thought.

First, we'll call it the Pressfield School (after Steven Pressfield, who wrote Gates of Fire, etc.). His six hundred Spartans curse like sailors. Strong sailors. Sailors who haven't been to port in a year.

As I was reading the book, I found actually found myself saying, "Eh, Steven, I'm not sure they would actually talk like a bunch of drunken marines. Maybe, but probably not."

The second school, let's call it the Sahara school (after the author of The Killer Angels). He actually states in his introduction that he based the language in his book on the written form (i.e. letters and other correspondence) of the time.

Here's my opinion (I welcome yours). I don't think they did use the work like we do, F**ing this and F**ing that. Why, because we use it, and it appears in our writing. I mean, it is everywhere in our culture. Shakespear used curses in his plays, so cursing was as enjoyable then as it is now. But I don't think they used that word.

Or did they?

I am unsettled on this issue.

[King Henry V]

The one which rhymes with duck is a good old Saxon word :medievalcheers: , cousin of the present day german profanity (ficken, verb).

[CrackedAxe]

I have to disagree with you there, Henry, I've read that the word was of Dutch origin and came into use around medieval times. It came into use in the English language around the same time. Of course, thats only a theory, and the exact origins of the word aren't quite clear. As for use as a swear word, well, I think it was used as an expletive even back then, though again, this isn't clear.

[King Henry V]

I thinks its more likely to come from Saxon German, ancestor of English, rather than Dutch.

[CrackedAxe]

It's possible, all I know is that English traders in medieval times picked up the word from the Dutch, it's original ancestry may be elsewhere. Do you know the original saxon word? As far as I know it doesn't appear in any original saxon writing, but then, most surviving saxon writings in the UK were written by monks, so it's highly unlikely it would appear in their records!

[RabidGibbon]

Re: Using the the word in historic fiction, I'm of the view that the word is simply there as a substitute for a strong curse word of the time.

After all I don't know any ancient greek/latin/persian swear words, nor am I writing in ancient greek/latin/persian so I just throw in strong language that I can relate to.

It may not be historically accurate but I suspect that this is what the "pressfield" school of authors are thinking whilst writing.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

the Sahara school (after the author of The Killer Angels)
Shaara, I think is the name. F-ing good book, by the way. ~;)

[Monk]

I'm going to use a quote from a certain writer. Points to the person who knows who said it.

"If he stepped in Sh*t, then write that. 'He stepped in sh*t.' don't work around it. but also don't make a habit of overusing it."

That's my opinion on this subject.

(censored because it's not needed for me to say the word)

[master of the puppets]

the action of making babies has been profain and used as a profanity from script even as far back as the late kingdom in egypt. thats all i know about it but it was a profain word since then.

[The Shadow One]

I'm going to use a quote from a certain writer. Points to the person who knows who said it.

"If he stepped in Sh*t, then write that. 'He stepped in sh*t.' don't work around it. but also don't make a habit of overusing it."

That's my opinion on this subject.

(censored because it's not needed for me to say the word)

Did it come from Stephen King's On Writing? I'm not at home, so I don't have a copy to check, but I think he said something pretty close to that.

I don't disagree with your statement when it comes to how we write today and the words we use.

Maybe this is the way to look at the issue: does the fact that we use such language in our writing today prove we use it when talk. If so, does the absence of the word in Fifth, Tenth, Sixteenth Century literature mean that people who lived back then didn't use the word (or other profanity, for that matter).

After all, I believe our use of the present word "Damn" is the shortened version of the longer "Damnation."

[shifty157]

Ultimately it depends on the work itself. If youre trying to recreate the dialect of the time period and place then no something like f*ck would be out of place. But if you are using modern dialect to better relay the meaning of the dialogue (or simply because its easier) then yes a word like f*ck would fit right in.

You would never expect to see that word in shakespeare just as the word faggot had a different definition then.

[The Shadow One]

Shaara, I think is the name. F-ing good book, by the way. ~;)

Absolutely. Typo on my part. Thanks for correcting me. And, as you say, an excellent book (that is, Michael's book -- I didn't care much for his son's books).

[shifty157]

Maybe this is the way to look at the issue: does the fact that we use such language in our writing today prove we use it when talk. If so, does the absence of the word in Fifth, Tenth, Sixteenth Century literature mean that people who lived back then didn't use the word (or other profanity, for that matter).

Well you also must consider that it wasnt the common vulgar peasant that was writing stories in the early centuries. The only people who wrote at these times were monks, historians (which where often monks as well), or wandering minstrels (who probably didnt write anything down anyway).

[KukriKhan]

Fascinating subject, being well-examined. However, let's not go overboard in the use of 'the word'. If it's not absolutely necessary to make your point/observation, please eschew its use, lest some other folks get the wrong idea and start using it in other Org forums, and get into trouble for it.

Thanks. Please carry on.

[Nigel]

Fascinating subject indeed.... while I dont consider myself to be a man attrackted by profanity, I feel strangely compelled to add my comments.

I have to say I find it hard to belive that the typical common solider or peasant did not use his share of curses in his day to day language. Shadow said he finds if hard to think the Spartan soldiers talked "like a bunch of drunken marines". And why not, for after all, that's what they were (well, perhaps not drunken, but marines still - the tough-stuff elite soldiers of their time).

A very good point was made by the one who pointed out that most common people were in fact not literate, and that those who did the writing usually had a different level of language than the commen soldiers and peasants. Even so, their spoken language would differ from their written language - I know for sure mine does, anyway.

As for wether a particular specific word has been used, I guess that depends when that word found its entry into the English language. I would find it absolutely plausible if at first the word was just a very pleasent description of love-making and then, as language developt, dropped down to the level of profanity. And as for representing dialog (or monologue) in the modern text of a historical novel, it would be only fair to use the modern equivalent of whatever the contemporary "technical term" had been. As those were hardly ever written down, we will probably never find out what words they really used in the olden days.


Oh dear, now I have gone and written 3 paragraphs on this subject. :blush:

[CrackedAxe]

As far as including profanities in historical fiction goes, well it's the same as any writing device, don't do it so much that it makes the reader become conscious of the writer and breaks the reader's immersion in the story. I'd say keep it very subtle and avoid strong words like the 'F' word due to it's modern sound (regardless of the actual antiquity of the word). Ancient warriors probably did swear like, well, troopers, but you don't need to litter your dialogue with expletives for it to carry impact. In fact, over-use of swearing will probably detract from it.

[The Shadow One]

Fascinating subject indeed.... while I dont consider myself to be a man attrackted by profanity, I feel strangely compelled to add my comments.

I have to say I find it hard to belive that the typical common solider or peasant did not use his share of curses in his day to day language. Shadow said he finds if hard to think the Spartan soldiers talked "like a bunch of drunken marines". And why not, for after all, that's what they were (well, perhaps not drunken, but marines still - the tough-stuff elite soldiers of their time).


To Nigel and All:

Just a couple of quick points, as I think some have misunderstood me. First, I don't pretend ancients didn't curse nor do I draw the line for cursing along economic or social lines. After all, I regularly go into law offices in this wonderful city of mine and in even the biggest and most expensive, the language doesn't vary too much from what you hear on the street.

I'm sure Spartan soliders cursed -- or did whatever was socially acceptable to express their opinion. Sometimes I think we forget that while people may be the same in many ways the world over, language and social customs differ significantly. Consider Japanese or Chinese culture, for example.

My point simply was whether people used a particular word and if they used with the full-bore regularity that we do.

Thanks to all for their insight.

[The Shadow One]

Well you also must consider that it wasnt the common vulgar peasant that was writing stories in the early centuries. The only people who wrote at these times were monks, historians (which where often monks as well), or wandering minstrels (who probably didnt write anything down anyway).

Shifty:

I love your comment, I really do. I wonder what it says about our society that ever time I get one of those expensive literary magazines in the mail, it usually has more than a couple of such words in it.

My grandmother, God bless her, would say were going to h*** in a handbasket.

[Ja'chyra]

Shadow

Interesting question.

I think you are right in one sense, it is highly unlikely that Spartans, Romans Egyptians etc used the F word, or any other modern curse words for that matter. But, I think it's very likely that they used their own curses.

Let's face it nothing sums up certain circumstances like an expletive e.g. 2000 enemy warriors crest the rise you and your 20 mates are heading towards, I think the F word sums up the situation nicely. Even in non-warlike scenarios it fits, imagine the saw slipping on the last cut of a job that has taken you a week, or the top of the ketchup bottle flying off when you shake the bottle.

So I would say that ancient warriors would've cursed like drunken marines, but marines of their day not ours.

[CrackedAxe]

I suppose the short answer to the question of how often people in ancient times used swear words is - we're unlikely to ever know. As has been said, only the privileged few could and would write, and writing materials were time-consuming to produce and difficult to come by. Writing was a serious and solemn business and the writers of the time probably didn't see much reason for rendering common dialogue into speech, as the on the occasions that they would write they would be more involved with recording important historical, political or legal events, or high-blown speeches, or telling epic tales of heroic deeds, and not particularly concerned with providing a historical resource on common language use for future historians millenia later!

That said, it is down to the imagination of the writer as to how much swearing and of what sort to include, with the caution I advised in an earlier post on this thread

[King Henry V]

Re: Using the the word in historic fiction, I'm of the view that the word is simply there as a substitute for a strong curse word of the time.

After all I don't know any ancient greek/latin/persian swear words, nor am I writing in ancient greek/latin/persian so I just throw in strong language that I can relate to.

It may not be historically accurate but I suspect that this is what the "pressfield" school of authors are thinking whilst writing.
Actually there is a site (insults.net) where there are all sorts of obscenities in different languages, including Latin.)

[Nigel]

Just a couple of quick points, as I think some have misunderstood me.
Point taken, Shadow, absolutely.
Also what you say about the Japanese culture is true. I find it indeed difficult to picture a Samurai swearing. I guess in that culture, loosing your temper would be a big loss of honour and could call for a seppuko.
But as for Greeks, Romans or Saxons swearing, that is much easier to imagine ;-)



I wonder what it says about our society that ever time I get one of those expensive literary magazines in the mail, it usually has more than a couple of such words in it.

hehe, and that is worrying as well. Seems like our standards are dropping fast.

Or is ist just that our attitude towards writing has changed and we are now more trying to represent the actually spoken word, rather than seeing our texts as a beautiful, albeit artificial (=artistic) pieces of art?

I remember a passage by Robert Graves in "I, Claudius" where he lets Claudius relate the event of Ceasar's battle speech before the battle against Pompeius. Don't believe a word when you read his battle speach, he has Claudius say. In fact Ceasar stood up from his breakfast table the morning before the battle to address his troops. Picking up a radish from his plate he pretends the radish is Pompeius and puts on a comic show that has his soldiers roaring with laughter, ridiculing Pompeius in the rudest way. The things he did with that radish would have made a prostitute blush. But of course this is nothing he would have wanted to be recorded for posterity. So is his biographers and propaganda advisors wrote a nice and heroic speech about the virtues of courage, freedom and the values of Republican Rome.

All this is just fiction, but I enjoyed reading this passage a lot.
And the passage is also a nice example of how you can describe a situation full of profanity without using the actual word.