Are race car drivers atheltes?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Ive heard people say that they are not. I suggest not only are they but they maybe the greatest atheletes on the face of the earth. These guys go over 200 mph with their lives hanging in the balance. Temperatures in the cockpits sometimes exceeds 140 degrees for hours at a time. They experience G force of 5gs. This is no job for anyone who is not extremly fit. Thers no time out no breaks and the mental stress is unblievable.


F1 drivers as athletes

In the intense heat and humidity of a race like the recent Brazilian Grand Prix, drivers are working hard in extreme heat. They are encased in triple-layer nomex suits, balaclavas and full-face helmets. The body's reaction is to sweat. If, in the course of a race, fluid loss becomes too serious, drivers will pass out. It is only natural. Unconsciousness is the body's inbuilt protection mechanicism, yet when a driver does collapse everyone throws their hands up in horror. How can it happen?

What is often forgotten is that, prior to collapse, the driver's state is constantly declining. Plenty of tests, carried out by NASA and various air forces, have proved that before blacking-out people under such stress gradually lose their ability to perform to the same degree as in normal circumstances. They cease to function efficiently, suffering physical and mental fatigue. There have been many attempts to solve the problem, ranging from cool helmets to high-energy drinks.

High-energy drinks? Racing drivers, cyclists, rowers, marathon runners, boxers, tennis players, even snooker players, use them, but what are they? Until recently high-energy drinks have consisted of a glucose-loaded, salt-based solution, which boost energy and fluid levels. One man who has been particularly involved in this particular field is Neil Swan, known in rally circles as "Dr Spock" - a registered osteopath from Oxfordshire.

Osteopath? (A quick dash to the dictionary). 'Manipulative surgery', eh? What has that got to do with drinks?

It's a long story, dating back to Swan's first involvement in motorsport with the Austin Rover Group, at the start of the Metro 6R4 rally project. He was hired by ARG to look after the rally drivers, who were being bashed and battered in the fearsome Group B rally machines. In the course of his time with Rover Swan found his brief developing from that of pure body manipulation. He was asked to find ways to improve driver performance by investigating such things as seat design, steering position and high-energy drinks.

After Austin Rover, his work continued with Ford and various other rally teams. There were occasional telephone calls from people such as the Toleman Paris-Dakar crew and then one from Williams Grand Prix Engineering.

"I was asked by Williams to sort out the seating arrangements," he explains. "And I did some work and a few tweaks to the harness and shoulder pads, various pieces like that. At the end of 1987 Nigel Mansell had his accident in Japan and, over the winter, I was called up by Nigel who asked me to go out to the Isle of Man and help him get back to full fitness."

In the mid-season last year Nigel caught chicken-pox and Martin Brundle was called in to drive for Williams at Belgian Grand Prix.

"Martin asked Dave Stubbs, then the Williams team manager, if he could you arrange some drink. I had tried every single drink I could get my hands on back in the Austin Rover days and I sent him the one we had used. After that Martin asked for that same drink for the Mount Fuji sportscar race.

"Well, there is a continuous development process in the field. Cars get better, tyres get better, engines get better and so do the high-energy drinks!

"I sent him another type. He won the race and the World Championship at Fuji. Now very little of that was to do with the drink, these things are relative, but every little fraction of a percent makes the difference between coming first and third."

"The principal difference in this drink was that instead of pure glucose, which most high-energy drinks have, it was a complex carbohydrate polymer.

"That is a lot of long words, which mean that the glucose molecules are joined in a long chain. It was found in testing that during exercise, this was absorbed at the same rate as water, the difference being that there are calories in the drink as well. So as well as putting water back in, it was also putting in energy.

"High-glucose drinks, as far as I am aware, super-saturate the body. They are absorbed into the body and produce a high blood sugar level. The body then reacts by producing insulin, which lowers sugar level.

"The knock-on effect of this is best seen in the simple example of motorway driving. You have a long way to go and you are tired. You have sat in same position and your circulation has slowed down, oxygenation in blood is not as good as normal. You stop to fill up with fuel, a walk around the car stimulates circulation, re-oxengenates the blood. You feel better. Then you buy a bar of chocolate (which is made of simple sugars) and go hammering away down the slip road, feeling like a million dollars.

"Fifteen minutes later you suddenly jerk youself awake and you've just been looking at the wrong end of a bridge parapet!

"I think what is happening is that, in this state of general fatigue, the insulin is getting to work on the high blood sugar level produced by the chocolate. Sitting in the car, your circulation has slowed down again and you're in an even worse situation than before. It's happened to virtually anyone who has driven a car and the same thing can happen with racing drivers.

"University College, London, conducted a series of tests on drivers some time ago. The findings were that top racing drivers were equally fit, if not fitter, than ultra-distance and profesional marathon runners!

"If there is a problem with the car there is a whole crew of engineers and mechanics. Their job is to sort out the problem. When it comes to the poor old driver, there is a lack of knowledge about human engineering, about how the human body is put together. In cost terms, I would question how much money is spent on weight-saving, replacing steel with titanium or finding more power from an engine, to get that extra fraction. It's amazing that all the professional teams do not actively look at improving the driver.

"Something which is not done, to my knowledge, by many people in motorsport but which is done in most other top sports, is carbohydrate-loading. This basically means eating a high carbohydrate diet -- pasta, potatoes, rice -- in the three days prior to an event. What happens then is that the muscles are preloaded with glycogin, the intermediate energy source which your body changes into blood sugar to keep the levels at normal.

"Of course, there is a limit to how much carbohydrate loading you can do. You can only eat so much pasta!

"By taking a complex carbohydrate drink you can increase the concentration of the carbohydrate intake by 40-50 percent, which results in a 35 percent improvement in endurance"

But it isn't just the drivers who can benefit from this. Swan was recently asked by Stubbs, now with Brundle at Brabham, to supply the whole of the team.

"He felt it would be a good idea for everyone to have the drink because of the terrific heat and energy problem associated with Rio. The mechanics are working their hearts out. They spend many hours working, they don't necessarily eat properly, so they are getting no energy back into the system. There is a limit to how long they can do that and there are knock-on effects from lack of concentration."

"I think," says Swan, "it is about time people started saying, 'Well drivers really are athletes'. And maybe we should treat them like athletes as well."

I believe a study was done and only soccer players rate higher on the fitness scale than F-1 drivers.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

No. Being fit doesn't mean your an athlete. Astronauts would meet most of the criteria you mentioned, and I wouldn't say they are athletes.

I'm sure most of them are athletes but the race car driving doesn't seem to fall under athletics to me.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I see so hand and eye coordination, stamina, extreme competion and extreme mental concentration dont add up to them being atheletes in your book huh? What is it do you have to run to be an eathelte in your book? I bet you couldnt race an F-1 car for 5 minutes without being toatly spent.

[Boohugh]

I suppose it depends how you define an athlete. I'd define it as someone who takes part in traditional athletics events (running, throwing stuff, jumping of various sorts, etc). So I wouldn't call footballers, rugby players or race car drivers 'athletes'.

They are all, however, sportsmen and women who need to be at the peak of mental and physical fitness to compete at a high level.

So, are race car drivers 'athletes'? No.

Are they sportsmen? Yes, and they need the same level of physical and mental fitness that people in other sports need to compete at the top level.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So, are race car drivers 'athletes'? No.

Maybe you all need to remember the definition of what constitutes an athlete.


A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts.


a person trained to compete in sport

I donrt see how you can deny they are athletes. Are pilots athletes.? No . Are those who compete in the national air races athletes? I would say yes.

Also sports are a combination of skill and fitness. I suggest that race drivers are far more skilled than say runners and just as if not more fit.

[Silver Rusher]

Actually, all of you except Gawain are wrong. F-1 drivers are athletes technically. How do I know this? You just need to look at the dictionary definition.

Woops, I see Gawain beat me to posting the definition. Oh well:

"A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts. "

1. Motorists must have traits such as strength and endurance.

2. They are used in a sport. Clay pigeon shooting is accepted as a sport, so surely motor racing must be as well.

3. Motor racing is one of the most competitive sports there is probably.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I really loved this one


So I wouldn't call footballers, rugby players or race car drivers 'athletes'.

Id like to see you tell someone over here that an NFL linebacker isnt an athlete.

[Beirut]

I think most people associate the word "athlete" with the classic sports and what it takes to do them. Running, jumping, swimming, that sort of thing.

This is not to say a race car driver is not athletically inclined, though some of them look like they would die if they ever had to run a mile, but it can also be seen as sports PC to call drivers athletes. I think you would simply call them professional race car drivers, having all the attributes and qualifications that that entails.

I can't imagine anyone would really mind being called a pro race driver.

[Quietus]

They are athletes and so are golfers. I bet it's tough to manuever with that kind of speed.

[Big_John]

a person trained to compete in sport
by this definition, chess players and cup-stackers are athletes too.

maybe a better question is to ask whether race drivers are int he sameathleticc class as otherathletee types. imo, they are not, on average, the same caliber athletes as football players (american or otherwise), basketball players, gymnasts, cyclists, etc. but, i could be wrong.

[doc_bean]

basketball players

A lot of those have no talent besides being tall.

I'd say race car drivers are athletes, people like to talk about the psychology of sport and the importance of mental strength. Keeping concentrated enough to drive at such high speed for an entire race requires plenty of mental endurance, and physical endurance.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Athlete: "A competitor in the physical exercises that formed part of the public games in ancient Greece and Rome"

From the OED


I don't think they had race cars in ancient times ~:)


It all depends on how you define athlete. To me an athlete is someone who competes in a sport without a machine that does work on it's own. And requires some physical ability (unlike chess). It's really the car that gets the driver around the track. I wouldn't qualify horse jockeys either.

[Big_John]

A lot of those have no talent besides being tall.a very small percent of professional or div 1 college basketball players in america are talentless big men. in fact, there are probably none in the nba. there are a couple of freakishly tall guys, like yao ming, that probably aren't great athletes. but only a couple.

[Samurai Waki]

have to agree with Big John. Even if you were 6'8"-7'6" I'd like to see you go out there and play 4 Quarters against those guys having little or no expirience.

As far as Race Car drivers are concerned, I guess it's more of a personal preference on what you would define as an athlete. I would say, yes.

Here is Dictionary.coms definition of an athlete:

ath·lete Audio pronunciation of "athlete" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (thlt)
n.

A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

This is not to say a race car driver is not athletically inclined, though some of them look like they would die if they ever had to run a mile,

I will bet you that every driver in F-1 today is far more fit than any person on these boards and will run circles arounf any of you .


by this definition, chess players and cup-stackers are athletes too.

Maybe you hadnt noticed but chess is not a sport anymore than playing MTW is nor is cup stacking..


maybe a better question is to ask whether race drivers are int he sameathleticc class as otherathletee types. imo, they are not, on average, the same caliber athletes as football players (american or otherwise), basketball players, gymnasts, cyclists, etc. but, i could be wrong.

Yup your wrong. Again they found that only soccer player are as fit as F-1 Drivers. Do you believe it takes more training and skill to be an endurance runner or a driver at Lemans? I have no doubt that in every way the race driver has it tougher and is far more skilled.

[Big_John]

Maybe you hadnt noticed but chess is not a sport anymore than playing MTW is nor is cup stacking..straight from the infallible and all-knowing dictionary.com:
1. a. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
b. A particular form of this activity.
2. An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
3. An active pastime; recreation.
obviously any non-athletic competition will fit #3. and since the level of physicality isn't specified, you could argue that they would also fit #1. but sure, if you want to define "sports" as an activity requiring a certain (unspecified) level of physicality, go right ahead. this, of course, begs the question: how does the level of physicality required by race driving compare to that of soccer or football or checkers? which leads us to:
Yup your wrong. Again they found that only soccer player are as fit as F-1 Drivers. Do you believe it takes more training and skill to be an endurance runner or a driver at Lemans? I have no doubt that in every way the race driver has it tougher and is far more skilled.that's great. i'm proud of your certainty. remind me again who found this out? i read that sports drink advertisement you posted. didn't mention anything about a study, besides one lines saying something about university college, could you link the study for me?

oh and then there was this:
I believe a study was done and only soccer players rate higher on the fitness scale than F-1 drivers.i admit it, that's about as conclusive as it gets.

[Azi Tohak]

I see so hand and eye coordination, stamina, extreme competion and extreme mental concentration dont add up to them being atheletes in your book huh?

And the difference between this and playing Ninja Gaiden (on Xbox) or Devil May Cry 3 (on PS2) is what exactly?

Azi

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And the difference between this and playing Ninja Gaiden (on Xbox) or Devil May Cry 3 (on PS2) is what exactly?

Stamina , G forces and maybe the fact that if you make a mistake you and others die.

[Azi Tohak]

Sweet! I can make up definitions as I go along too! ~D

But I'd rather use this one:

www.webster.com


Main Entry: ath·lete

Etymology: Middle English, from Latin athleta, from Greek athlEtEs, from athlein to contend for a prize, from athlon prize, contest
: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

So ballet, ice skating, football (yup, both kinds), race cars, runners all fit.

Golf (what stamina?), baseball (like golf, now with more steroids!), video games (I don't need to explain this one), and chess (same here) don't qualify.

Azi

[Papewaio]

I will bet you that every driver in F-1 today is far more fit than any person on these boards and will run circles arounf any of you .

I bet you a Divinus Arma and raise you a Beriut-san




Yup your wrong. Again they found that only soccer player are as fit as F-1 Drivers. Do you believe it takes more training and skill to be an endurance runner or a driver at Lemans? I have no doubt that in every way the race driver has it tougher and is far more skilled.

I think you will find that Aussie Rules players (rovers and the like in particular) will be endurance wise fitter then F-1 drivers.

+ All Blacks
+ Australian Iron Men & Women.
+ Grant Hackett.

[Lehesu]

I believe the core origins of being an athlete are found in the exercise of basic physical human functions, especially those that stem from warfare or conflict. Running is a basic human function, a talent useful in combat. So too is wrestling, javelin throwing, jumping, swimming, etc. Most "athletic" sports test human skill in surmounting obstacles posed by their environment (including humans in that environment). As such, even more specialized skills such as skiing pertain, as they are related to overcoming environmental conditions.

I would argue that race car driving, while certainly a sport that may tax the body as much as any activity, does not specifically test skills related in overcoming a natural environment, so much as a fabricated and completely artificial one.

Of course, this is just an observation, nothing more concrete than that. Using these guidelines, competitive eating becomes even more of a sport than anyone ever realized. :dizzy2:

Oh, and Ninja Gaiden is sick hard. But I am still going to get the Black version when it comes out.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I bet you a Divinus Arma and raise you a Beriut-san

Dan forgot about the Sarge but I have no doubt Beriut would be left hugging a tree trying to keep up. These guys are far more fit than any of you seem to imagine. You would have to be a world class athelte to compete with these guys or an active Marine. ~;) Im afraid though that they would even out last the average Marine. Div is far from average it seems.


Most "athletic" sports test human skill in surmounting obstacles posed by their environment

Have you ever watched a rally race? Dont tell me their not surmounting obstacles posed by their environment. In fact all race drivers have to overcome the obstacles of their enviorment from other drivers to the road to the weather.

[Lehesu]

Have you ever watched a rally race? Dont tell me their not surmounting obstacles posed by their environment. In fact all race drivers have to overcome the obstacles of their enviorment from other drivers to the road to the weather.
I meant the natural environment, as pertaining to the early beginnings of civilization. Basically, I was stating that if the skills involved in sport do not directly test skills that would be useful if the world was stripped of all technology and sent back to the stone age, it isn't an "athletic" endeavor. As auto racing is a "skill" of dubious value in that sense, it wouldn't be athletic.
Does a race driver physically impel his vehicle across the track? Of course not. However, this distinction removes the driver from an immediacy with his environment, an immediacy shared in all "classic" athletic endeavors.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

an immediacy shared in all "classic" athletic endeavors.

Oh come on. Then only those games played in the olympics are played by athletes? Please.They maybe the only "classic " athletes but thats surely an eleitist way of looking at it. So then football baseball basketball soccer . None of these are played by athletes.


Does a race driver physically impel his vehicle across the track? Of course not.

Yes with his foot and hands. Can it make it around without him. Racing is more about the man than the machine. Thats why they have formulas to even out the cars. I guess the Shue is just lucky. Many a time the better driver wins with an inferior car.

[Papewaio]

There are athletics events at the olympics... track and field. But generally all olympians are referred to as olympic athletes...

Drivers are fit, but I do think there are a lot fitter... as I said Aussie Rules guys (some run a half marathon in distance per match), Iron Men and Women, and the Tri-Nations rugby union teams (although it might be best to focus on the Backs and stay away from the Hookers (look that term up), and of course the League teams, and Womens swiming team etc.

[Al Khalifah]

Are race car drivers atheltes?
Well I am an amateur and I wouldn't class myself as an athelte. Possibly a sportsman but not an athlete. The reflexes and skill required are just as extreme as in any other sport though - possibly even more so.

Racing drivers do have to stay very physically fit (athletic you might say). Formula One teams spend millions on making their cars as light as possible, shaving off every last kilo. The same is true of other racing teams, who will do everything possible to reduce the weight of their cars - be it the removal of unnecessary components or the use of light-weight materials. They are not then going to employ a porker as a driver are they?

Isn't chess a sport?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Drivers are fit, but I do think there are a lot fitter... as I said Aussie Rules guys (some run a half marathon in distance per match), Iron Men and Women, and the Tri-Nations rugby union teams (although it might be best to focus on the Backs and stay away from the Hookers (look that term up), and of course the League teams, and Womens swiming team etc.

Well you havent answered but the experts say they are more fit than any of these. This is the closet thing their is to being a fighter pilot or a Knight in the old days. Question. Is Bull fighting a sport?

[Ja'chyra]

athlete

• noun 1 a person who is good at sports. 2 a person who competes in track and field events.

— ORIGIN Greek athletes, from athlon ‘prize’.

From the oxford dictionary, well the compact version.

I would say that they are not athletes, neither are football players.

As for the greatest athletes on the face of the earth, I take it your a racing fan? Wouldn't fast jet pilots be better then them by your reckoning.

[Beirut]

Well you havent answered but the experts say they are more fit than any of these. This is the closet thing their is to being a fighter pilot or a Knight in the old days. Question. Is Bull fighting a sport?

Nobody is denying the guys are fit, though as I said, I've seen a few NASCAR types who looked pretty round.

Sure they're tough, talented, and skilled, but that does not really make them athletes. For one thing, they barely move, except for strenuous arm activity. But if that was a condition of athleticism, every fourteen year old boy would be an Olympian. Jet pilots, astronauts, there are lots of people who's job requires great endurance and skill, but that does not qualify them as athletes.

I still say professional race car driver is a pretty good title. Why do you seem so offended by it?

[Sjakihata]

by definition, they are not athletes. An athlete is one who participates in athletics, such as; runnning, jumping, and throwing.

the greek athletes means champion or competitor in matches, races, or competitions. By that definition an F-1 driver fits the criteria.

[Duke of Gloucester]

There used to be a TV programme in the UK 30 years ago where sportsmen and sportswomen from different disciplines competed in various tests of speed, strength, agility and stamina - can't remember what it was called. Whenever there was a racing driver taking part, it was a good bet that he would be the winner. Now things have changed a lot since the seventies in all sports, but I am confident that in terms of strength, stamina, endurance etc. racing drivers are going to be better than most sports people and as good as the best.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

For one thing, they barely move, except for strenuous arm activity.

Your obviously cluless as to what it takes to drive a real racin car. You whole body moves throughout the race as your fighting the G forces. Trying to support 5 times your body weight with all that going on is very physically straining. You use every muscle in your body when you race. The fact thatthese movements are small and hidden doesnt make them any less strenuous.


But if that was a condition of athleticism, every fourteen year old boy would be an Olympian. Jet pilots, astronauts, there are lots of people who's job requires great endurance and skill, but that does not qualify them as athletes.

None of these people participate in a sport however.


I still say professional race car driver is a pretty good title. Why do you seem so offended by it?

Because you are denying some of the greatest athletes on the planet their due. There are only 20 people in the world who race F-1 cars. Surely the most elite group of athletes in any sport. You better be damn good.


by definition, they are not athletes. An athlete is one who participates in athletics, such as; runnning, jumping, and throwing.

Thats a pretty limited defintion of an athlete. Did you make that up by yourself? Its seems as I posted the dictionary says different.


the greek athletes means champion or competitor in matches, races, or competitions. By that definition an F-1 driver fits the criteria.

Were not greek and this is AD. By your definiton race drivers were athletes until they stopped the running start at Le mans. ~D Man that was cool but dangerous.

[Lehesu]

When I mean immediacy, I mean one's actions directly exert force on the environment. A runner can claim complete and absolute credit for winning a race. Technology may enhance or make more efficient his efforts, but it is his effort alone that wins a race. Not so much in race car driving. In race car driving, the "athlete" is not being challenged to go around the ring faster than his opponent...he is being challenged to more efficiently operate a piece of machinery so that it will do that for him. Any athletic skill he picks up pertains merely to the functioning of machinery. He does not directly fuel the effort with his own muscles, his own sweat and blood, like an athlete. Gasoline does that for him. What he does do is direct this energy with his own sweat and blood.

Back to the running example: No one gives a running shoe all the credit for winning a race, despite the fact that a shoe more efficiently distributes energy and assists the mechanics of movement. Why is that? It is because runners vary in skill.

Race car drivers are the shoes for the race cars. The only reason why they get credit, and the shoe doesn't, is that automobile potential can be exactly measured.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Race car drivers are the shoes for the race cars. The only reason why they get credit, and the shoe doesn't, is that automobile potential can be exactly measured.

Yopu almost made sense until this. I would say race cars are the shoes of the drivers not the other way around. The reason they get credit is that it is their skill and athletic prowess that makes their car win not that it is better than all the other cars. If that were so anyone could win but Shuemacher has been winning at an alarming rate for over a decade now. Dont tell me the car has more to do with winning than the driver.


He does not directly fuel the effort with his own muscles, his own sweat and blood, like an athlete.

Again Id like to see the car make it around the track without him. What do you think he controls it with his mind?


No one gives a running shoe all the credit for winning a race, despite the fact that a shoe more efficiently distributes energy and assists the mechanics of movement. Why is that? It is because runners vary in skill.

So then why do you insist on giving the car, which in many circumstances are the same , credit for winning a race. Sure sometimes theres a car thats miles ahead of the others but this is not the norm. Are you denying that race drivers vary in skill ?


. The only reason why they get credit, and the shoe doesn't, is that automobile potential can be exactly measured.

Yes its easier to rate the pontenial of one of the most complicated and technical machines on the planet than a sneaker. Give me a break.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Fine, they're athletes. I'm still not going to watch NASCAR though.

[Papewaio]

Well you havent answered but the experts say they are more fit than any of these. This is the closet thing their is to being a fighter pilot or a Knight in the old days. Question. Is Bull fighting a sport?

Have you seen an Aussie rules match, The All Blacks Playing against South Africa or Australia, or an Iron Man competition?

I would like to see the data they are using to define fitness. Race drivers have a very specifc type of endurance, and as noted some of them are rather stout.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Have you seen an Aussie rules match, The All Blacks Playing against South Africa or Australia, or an Iron Man competition?


Yes I love both of those.


I would like to see the data they are using to define fitness. Race drivers have a very specifc type of endurance, and as noted some of them are rather stout.

Not in F-1 there isnt. You will even have a hard time finding any in NASCAR these days. All athletes have a very specifc type of endurance. By every criteria that makes one an athlete f-1 drivers fit the bill. Look I was a great wrestler in HS and an amature race driver for many years. I can tell you that even driving a good go kart compares well with wrestling as far as stamina and skill go. Please dont try to tell me that wrestling is not a sport. By the way for nine minutes nothing is as exhausting as wrestling. Races last for hours however and by the end your just as beat if not more so than wrestling. I cant count how many times I almost passed out after a long race in the heat. And believe me I was more than fit being a Marine at the time. Of course now Moto cross is even more physically demanding. Yes I raced mottos also.Next you will be telling me those guys arent athletes either.