Big Byzantine Infantry

[antisocialmunky]

I'm just curious, does anyone use armies with 6+ Byzantine Infantry? I only use 4 with an occasional 8 if I overbuild.

I'm just curious about how other Byzantine play styles. Since you have the best sword infantry unit in the game, I'm wondering if I could get away with large infantry heavy infantries. Something like having two rows of 4 infantry with a 4-6 assorted cavalry units and missile support.

Since oyu'd outnumber pretty much everyone else, you could effectively attrition them or something. It's kinda interesting and I'm planning to play a game after I get some ideas for that type of army.

[edyzmedieval]

Byzantine Infantry aren't really that powerful.

If they are confronted hard, then they rout easily....

I use 2 units of BI, 3 units of Trebizond Archers, 3 units of Spearmen/Skutatoi, 3 units of Varangians, 2 units of Alan Mercenary Cavalry , 2 units of Proniai Allagion/Kataphraktoi, 1 unit of General, which is Kataphraktoi.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, BI do love to mass rout. However, I've found with a competent general of 4 stars or more and localized outnumbering, they are pretty good. The only thing that can outnumber them are spearmen and peasant and they fair well against both of those.

But anyway... how do you get that many Varangians for a standard campaign? I can't afford the time to build them en masse.

[ichi]

Since I play a lot online, where there are penalties for pickibg more than four of any one type of unit, my SP style usually has me with 4 max of any kind. In a pinch, of course, I go with what I got.

ByzInf are strong in early and high, when their 100 man unit size gives them an edge. Since they start with low morale they can be routed en masse (unless they're led by a high command rating gen).

So, yeah, you could build a 16 unit ByzInf stack led by a six star gen, but to me it wouldn't be nearly as interesting as taking a few ByzCav, Trebs, Bulgs, VG, Napthas, Porno Cav, or even a few mercs and beating up the AI with a combination attack.

but that's just me

ichi :bow:

[antisocialmunky]

Hmmm, that's interesting, since yes it's more interesting to play with their uber cav, but I don't find it all that fun.

I think it's equally challenging to play the Byz with a heavy Infantry army rather than a more balanced army.

[edyzmedieval]

But anyway... how do you get that many Varangians for a standard campaign? I can't afford the time to build them en masse.

How's about modding MTW so you can have the Early Varangian Guard?! ~;)

Royal Palace + Inn = the best HI in the Early period, Early Varangian Guards ~D

[Patron]

I'm playing a late byzantine game at the moment and I'm completely pwning the middle east and russia with the 3 byzantine cavalry types.

Byzantine cavalry are my staple killing source, I'm mass producing these in Rum and Egypt at the moment and giving them an armour bonus of 3. Against infantry on their own, they can expend all of their ammunition then surround them and charge into the demoralised units. Against light cavalry or other archers, their melee skills and armour gives them a strong advantage.

Pronoiai Allagion are exactly the same as feudal knights and I use them as such. They perform frontal charges when my byzantine cavalry have finnished emptying their quivers into the enemy, after they have engaged I send my byzantine cavalry into the flanks as they are usually all over the place trying to find a nice place to shoot from.

Kataphraktoi are obsolete, they have a lower attack than Pronoiai and they are much slower. However my many argumentative prideful jedi princes have units of these, I give them a +3 armour bonus for a total armour of 10 and send these ancient units against enemy heavy cavalry, which usually outclass my feudal knights.

I also have a master gunsmith and master foundry in constantinople and am churning out culverins. This saves a lot of lives when it comes to taking down those huge citadels that dot the late medieval map.

[edyzmedieval]

Kataphraktoi are obsolete, they have a lower attack than Pronoiai and they are much slower. However my many argumentative prideful jedi princes have units of these, I give them a +3 armour bonus for a total armour of 10 and send these ancient units against enemy heavy cavalry, which usually outclass my feudal knights.

.

Kataphraktoi are much more powerful than Pronoiai. I used the Pronoiai against the Mongols, and all of my Pronoiai( 6 units ) routed.

[Geezer57]

Kataphraktoi are much more powerful than Pronoiai. I used the Pronoiai against the Mongols, and all of my Pronoiai( 6 units ) routed.
Katphraktoi: Charge 8, Attack 3, Defense 5, Armor 7, Morale 4, Speed=Slow (9/12/16 for March/Run/Charge)
Pronoiai Allagion: Charge 6, Attack 4, Defense 3, Armor 5, Morale 8, Speed=Normal (9/20/22 for March/Run/Charge)

Yes, when both are fresh in a head-up fight, the Kataphraktoi will win by a small margin. If the Pronoiai are uphill, or if the Katanks aren't fresh, the Pronoiai will win. Given their speed and morale benefits, it should be straighforward to engineer a situation where they beat Katanks readily.

Mongol Heavy Cav are just very tough: Charge 6, Attack 3, Defense 6, Armor 7, Morale 6, Speed=Normal (9/20/22 for March/Run/Charge), so it's difficult for either Katanks or Pronoiai to overcome them heads-up. You'll need to use terrain, position, missle fire morale bonus, general morale bonus, etc. to get every advantage possible.

Bottom line: I support Patron's suggestions wholeheartedly!

[antisocialmunky]

Kats are cheaper though, you didn't factor that in. They're about equal in my book. Kats have more brute force and can be relied on to hold their own for a even in a frontal attack. I use them in a pinch to disrupt enemy units in a frontal assault before my Byzantine Infantry hit. Pronoiai are great flankers, but I wouldn't charge head on with them and leave them in prolonged melee unlike Kats.

I personally prefer Byzantine Cav over both of them though.

[ichi]

Katanks are best used when V2 or better, either pumped up or with a high command star general. They do their best when holding the flank - as defenders. They are excellent anticav and can plug a hole in the line nicely.

Porno Cav very much like Feudal Knights, fresh out of the box they start at morale 8 and are great all purpose cav, skirmishing archers, flanking, running down routers, etc. With the lower armor and faster speed they are better in arid climates.

Both have their uses, neither is better, except for specific uses.

ichi :bow:

[EatYerGreens]

Bear in mind that I've not even purchased RTW yet (shock, horror!) so I don't have the benefit of the historical notes which come with it and am frankly too pre-occupied (a.k.a. lazy) to read around the subject.

Anyway, I was going to suggest that, in a role-playing manner, you run them in the same unit mix as the Roman armies used to use. They will then be somewhat anachronistic in their fighting style, in the medieval era at least and it would be interesting to see how well you could do, employing this outdated style.

I suspect this will be infantry-heavy. Archers and cav will support and chase routers, respectively, but basically, you just pummel the enemy with waves of unstoppable infantry.

In my current campaign, I still only have one source of BI, the capital, but I've already built church & monastery there and am about to follow up with the other religious buildings to cancel out the morale problem even further. Already they fight like bandits but so far I've only been using the high-star generals (5 and above) and it may be that which is stopping them from breaking.

Due mainly to competing training needs limiting my troop production at Connie, my unit mix is usually 2 TA's and 2 HA's to 1 BI, to 2-4 Spears, maybe a pair of UMs thrown in if I can be bothered to build them. VG's are only in key provinces vulnerable to sea invasion and only one of these in the entire province at that. Seems to be sufficient so far. Oh and the general, of course. Lancers and Kats are now on tap, PA's still some years off (castle or above required in Nicaea for the valour bonus) so this will change later.

The above mix is less than a full stack of 960 but, on the strategic map, it helps me to quickly assess the strength in a province and make troop moves without disrupting the mix of units I like to have available on the battlefield. I think of them as a 'corps' and can even be deployed and used as such on the field. Two of them generally make up the requisite 16 and a third gives me an identical mix in the reinforcements, so any border province where I can't set this up will have me shuffling units around until I'm happy with the mix.

I would dearly love to have more than 2 BI per 16 in the field battles but the temptation to stock up on VG's before they become unavilable later is really cutting down production.

In the year the second swordsmith was due to come online, in Greece, those Sicilian swines, having sunk the ship blocking them, invaded using both of the two stacks I was planning to assault in Sicily in a couple more years time.

Naturally, I was furious and nearly restored to a gamesave but then decided to ride it out. I abandoned province rather than set up a siege but attacked in force on the next turn, as well as getting Sicily as a freebie, since they left NOTHING behind there. Naffing AI Twits. I was busily beating them to a pulp, having killed their heirless king when WHAM, the PC rebooted... more anger and frustration.
The replay was on a completely different map. Previously, I had a hill, they had the flat and I still got them to come to me to be archered to bits. This time, I had a ridge-line but there was a gully between me and their very steep hill. No repeat of the walkover then. Still, the HA's again did the trick, I tempted them to come down and attack my forces, which were basically just standing and waiting, with them going uphill, which is madness given the AI was supposed to be defending. Their King nearly managed to escape but, bizarrely, changed his mind, came back for more, only to be greeted by 3 TA's firing at him, my spears and eventually, a charge by the general's Kat's, from the rear. Deader. I didn't get to see much of their second stack, my 2 VG's had chased a bunch of the first lot into the woods and just sat there absorbing the reinforcements as they entered and lost less than 10 men each by the end. A walkover battle and the heirless faction is history, so no more worries about their annoying ships. ~:cool: Just annoyed about the rebuild time required to get back to where I was at in Greece, as the keep was degraded back to a fort after the successful siege assault (autocalced, due to lack of siege equipment).

[antisocialmunky]

Katanks are best used when V2 or better, either pumped up or with a high command star general. They do their best when holding the flank - as defenders. They are excellent anticav and can plug a hole in the line nicely.

Porno Cav very much like Feudal Knights, fresh out of the box they start at morale 8 and are great all purpose cav, skirmishing archers, flanking, running down routers, etc. With the lower armor and faster speed they are better in arid climates.

Both have their uses, neither is better, except for specific uses.

ichi :bow:

Ehh..? Ichi or eechi?

[ichi]

Ehh..? Ichi or eechi?

ichi :bow:

[littlebktruck]

EYG's last post reminds me of a question: are the morale bonuses for religious buildings cumulative?

[Zarax]

No, they aren't...

[Ironside]

EYG's last post reminds me of a question: are the morale bonuses for religious buildings cumulative?

The church gives +2
The monastary gives +2 (for a total of +4)
And the reliquary gives +2 (total +6)

So yes they are cumulative, but something is wrong with the descriptions as they say. +1,+1,+2.

[edyzmedieval]

And the Cathedral gives +3 so +9 in total.

[EatYerGreens]

And the Cathedral gives +3 so +9 in total.

Kewl.

I was confused for a moment, when Zarax said it wasn't cumulative...

As I said, the BI units need this boost. The trouble is that the units which start with high basic morale will get to such a state that they'll never break and, if trapped, will probably fight to the last man. Gulp. ~:eek:

[antisocialmunky]

Like Ghazis + Mosque.

[edyzmedieval]

Like Ghazis + Mosque.

I'm making the Elite Ghazis, for the BTW mod. Master Swordsmith + Grand Mosque.

Completely fanatical, with awesome attack.

[antisocialmunky]

If only they wore chain mail instead of those little shirts.

[Ironside]

Kewl.

I was confused for a moment, when Zarax said it wasn't cumulative...

As I said, the BI units need this boost. The trouble is that the units which start with high basic morale will get to such a state that they'll never break and, if trapped, will probably fight to the last man. Gulp. ~:eek:

Hmf... My morale 14 saracen inf broke, and they wasn't even flanked. I mean 98% losses is nothing :furious3:

~;)

[BAD]

Hmf... My morale 14 saracen inf broke, and they wasn't even flanked. I mean 98% losses is nothing :furious3:

~;)

LMAO!!! Though I remember some of my housemates Boyar's getting to Morale 33??!!?! ~:eek:

[antisocialmunky]

Well, handgunners shooting and charging at something at 50% health is almost a guarantied rout.

[Del Arroyo]

The one game where I had some Byz Infantry, from a bribed rebel army, I put them into battle at the center of my line, and the friggin Katanks charged them and routed my entire army :furious3: :furious3: :furious3:

Since then I haven't had much respect for them.

DA

[antisocialmunky]

Gotta love that 0 morale.

[EatYerGreens]

Gotta love that 0 morale.

Heh heh! You have to find ways to work around it too, adding to the challenge. Like keep the general close by them at all times...

The description parchment says they are Heavy Infantry, IIRC, but the Tech Tree classes them as Medium Infantry, alongside the likes of Gallowglasses, Clansmen, CMAAs. I suspect this is their correct classification. The unit size of 100 is probably meant to reflect their ancestry in the Ancient Roman empire and the century being their standard unit size.

The poor morale is an Achilles' heel but I think they needed to be handicapped in this way, otherwise the larger unit size would make them overpowering relative to the other MedInf types, which are mostly 60 men (@ default size), therefore upsetting the game balance. A human Byz player would be left with less of a challenge and an AI Byz faction would just storm the map and become so rich as to be near impossible to stop, humiliating the human player in the process. Negative gaming experience tends to cause the thing to be put away on the shelf...

[m52nickerson]

I've never had that much problem with morale 0 troops. I use Halberdiers as my front line troops all the time (I hate spears). As long as you keep a high morale unit close to them and protect there flank you should be fine.

[Ironside]

I've never had that much problem with morale 0 troops. I use Halberdiers as my front line troops all the time (I hate spears). As long as you keep a high morale unit close to them and protect there flank you should be fine.

I suspect that your halbs got a few moral bonuses from buildings. It's a huge difference between 0 morale and 2+ morale. Try some costum battles and see for yourself.

[ichi]

Online the base standard for VI is morale 8. Of course there's lots of varying florin levels, but for most melee troops morale 8 is the threshold between being a capable fighting unit or good runners.

Another way to look at it is that at high morale, say 12+, units will die on the field, or rout when they're down to the last man. Below 6 they'll run as soon as they get flanked, routing with more than half the unit still alive. Neither of these scenarios are very realistic or interesting. At morale 8 units tend to fight until they are reduced to 1/4 strength, are exhausted and are receiving other morale penalties like being hit with missiles, flanked, or outnumbered.

Of course at the start of a campaign we are forced to fight with low morale troops, but we frequently are up against other low end low morale enemies.

ichi :bow:

[EatYerGreens]

I think that the biggest shock I experienced, in progressing from STW to MTW was the morale factor and its role in the winning and losing of battes.

You pile in, with twice as many men as the enemy, similar quality troops and God knows what caused it but suddenly they're all running back to mama, with maybe only 15-20% casualties. WTFIUWT???

It just goes to show how habituated I had become to Shogun, where this kind of behaviour could be expected of your Ashigaru, even to the point of making a tactic out of it. The rest of your army, however, would do precisely what you ordered them to do, even if it was borderline suicidal for them to attempt it. It's a whole different ball game with MTW.

From what I hear about multiplayer and this whole upgrading business, that sounds like a whole other world... ~:eek:

[Del Arroyo]

IMO opinion it is perfectly REALISTIC for units to start running with less than 50% casualties. If you read historical accounts you'll see alot of support for lower casualty rates generally than we find in MTW.

I mean, this era is obviously a bit different Greek Hoplite warfare, when something like 90% of casualties were inflicted once one side started running... but it's still off if real historical numbers are your goal.

DA

[antisocialmunky]

Well, I think the 90% high casualty routing casualty rate is pretty much true for everything until World War II. Formation fighting is what caused high routing casualties because a man is only most effective when he is fighting with a group and dead on his own.

But anyways, 50% casualties is usually a very high number IRL.

[ichi]

The issue of when units routed historically has been discussed a lot in here, and the numbers appar to vary widely over time and between situations. The best gameplay occurs when units niether rout too soon or too late. Where that point is varies by person. For me I hate to see three guys still fighting after their 57 buddies got chopped. Below morale 8 units rout too quickly, or at least thats a good MP standard (10-15K)

ichi :bow:

[EatYerGreens]

I think part of the surprise factor came from having seen the 'new and improved' Total War engine on the 'Time Commanders' TV series, before I'd actually bought MTW.

I shouldn't have been as surprised as I was about the graphics quality being little more than a repaint of Shogun sprites. However, that's nothing compared to expectations of what the fights would be like.

The historical notes in Shogun mentioned that typical Sengoku Jidai era Japanese battles were over very rapidly, once battle was joined but Time COmmanders showed meleés carrying on for long enough to require editing to fit the programme. Close ups would show sword blows being exchanged, but very few actual kills (unless it was cav into spears LOL) and this, I thought, more fitted the bill of European style combat.

Of course, into MTW and 'time compression' or Japanese speed, if you prefer, seems to still be order of the day.

To me, the consequence of two units with similar ability slugging it out would be few casualties but the unit which becomes exhausted first will lose and I think exhaustion should be the fundamental thing which makes a unit rout. When you can no longer fight effectively, there is no point continuing and you will die if you try. If you have any energy left, then you run. Adrenaline works wonders in these situations - fighting is an act of will but flight is nature's own way of keeping you alive.

[antisocialmunky]

Historically though, great victories have been won by some very exhausted soldiers.

It's really a question about who's more motivated.

[EatYerGreens]

Exhaustion: I can imagine most troops of that era were totally knackered afterwards, even if they were the winners. Sadly my historical knowledge is too patchy to be able to recall any examples where exhaustion was specifically mentioned in the account. Can you?

Motivation: Aye, that's true. The occasional recklessness of the nobles probably had a lot to do with promises of land ownership after conquest. Manifest displays of brave deeds were de rigeur, in order to get noticed. For the lower orders, there may have been occasions where there was a stark choice between high possibility death in battle or their liege-lord dishing out terrible post-battle retribution for them failing to do their sworn duty, such as having themselves and their family thrown out of tied accommodation... That's feudalism for you.



Pronoiai Allagion are exactly the same as feudal knights and I use them as such. They perform frontal charges when my byzantine cavalry have finnished emptying their quivers into the enemy, after they have engaged I send my byzantine cavalry into the flanks as they are usually all over the place trying to find a nice place to shoot from.

Just curious about this. I'm up to 1180's and am still patiently waiting for construction in Nicaea to reach the point of building +1V PAs but only at armour level +1. I have been able to build silver-armour V0 PAs in Connie for quite some time now - and Kats, of course - but have only built one token PA unit so far. I'd like to keep the capital busy making VG's and the occasional Kat, to top up depleted generals' units.

Do you think the valour bonus outweighs the better armour, to the point that it makes more sense to wait for the Nicaea PAs to be ready and not attempt to stock up on 'interim' units, better armour notwithstanding, while I wait?

Also, would you have any comments on a policy of using PAs instead of Kats, for the desert battles and either/both for the arid and lush regions?

Your previous comment about Kat obsolscence has been noted. I see them described here as Panzer-like but mine mysteriously die a lot. Bizarrest of all, the losses I most frequently get to witness happening seem to involve missile fire and that's in spite of all their supposed armouring... very odd.


I also have a master gunsmith and master foundry in constantinople and am churning out culverins. This saves a lot of lives when it comes to taking down those huge citadels that dot the late medieval map.

{sounds of hasty jotting-pad scribblings} ~;)

[Grey_Fox]

Hmm. According to Ya's Unit Master, 2 armour Porno Cav are evenly matched versus 1 valour Porno Cav. So it's really up to you. If I were you, just build another armourers guild in Nicaea

[EatYerGreens]

Hmm. According to Ya's Unit Master, 2 armour Porno Cav are evenly matched versus 1 valour Porno Cav. So it's really up to you. If I were you, just build another armourers guild in Nicaea

Yes, that will surely come but it's either a 6-year or 8-year build (I forget the details and would a Citadel be required as well?) and the temptation to start production as soon as they're available is hard to resist!

Then again, it's the same for any units in the game. You always end up with an ugly mish-mash of differing armour levels of each unit type because it wasn't possible to sit and wait for the tech - the manpower was needed right away.

Thanks for the tip.

[antisocialmunky]

Valour increases morale +2, attack +1, and defense +1 per point. Armor increases armor +1 and defense +1. Valour is better than upgrades armor or weapons. Besides, cav doesnt' really need armor, they need defense. You're not going to use them as arrow bait are you?

[EatYerGreens]

You're not going to use them as arrow bait are you?

Errr, no! ~:eek:

Chopping and chasing arrow units, certainly. Of course, if you chase one but 3 or 4 others are nearby at the time, then they're going to take some fire, so armour will help. Then again, I generally only send cav to singleton arrow units which the AI has been daft enough to leave isolated on open ground.

Main role, of course, will be taking out enemy RK, FK units without getting my general's Katanks involved, so any armour level better than that of the RKs will vertainly help.

The purpose of the question was finding out what to do about having better armour, no valour bonus in one training centre and valour bonus but inferior armour at the other centre.

Thanks to your reply, I can see that the additional +1 on defence, derived from +1V is as good as them having the next level up on armour. The +2 morale boost is probably worth even more to me, so I think it will be worth the wait and there's no need to 'stock up' and Constantinople can left to concentrate on silver VG's. ~D