View Full Version : iskander...gay or just weird?
VAE VICTUS
08-06-2005, 07:26
:weirdthread: not to offend any gay folks out there(if THEY are in the guild.....they are EVERYWHERE....sry lol)but was alexander a fag boy with hapheaston :love:(however you spell it)?and did some of his soldiers commit sodomy?and whats this about philip being stabbed by an ex-male-lover (a little heideigger for you)ASSASSinate him?:sweatdrop:
also was t.e. raped by turks,if so why?(heard he was gay 2)becasue he was fighting them and winning?
just wondering if this was some kind of pro-gay propaganda or if there is any truth in these things. :rtwno: ~:smoking: :rifle:
PanzerJaeger
08-06-2005, 07:30
I bet this thread will be closed within 6 hours, any takers?
swirly_the_toilet_fish
08-06-2005, 08:18
I'd wager the same.
Kagemusha
08-06-2005, 08:23
In ancient Creece homo sexualism was common thing.Or should i say bi-sexualism.Creeks didnt condem it.I also bet this thread will close pretty soon. :bow:
VikingOfThule
08-06-2005, 08:37
Alexander was bi. And he was Greek so lets just be thankful it stopped there.
Byzantine Prince
08-06-2005, 09:08
gah! close this stupid thread mods. :snobby:
tibilicus
08-06-2005, 11:25
gah! close this stupid thread mods. :snobby:
:yes:
Colovion
08-06-2005, 11:43
Alexander lived in a time where sexuality wasn't so polarized as it is today.
He basically doubled his chances to get laid though. :2thumbsup:
VAE VICTUS
08-06-2005, 17:26
yeah i to thought it would have been clcosed by now.
VikingOfThule
08-06-2005, 18:42
They were much more sexually open back then. Their cultures became sophisticated over thousands of years, then with the fall of Rome came the dark ages, which set europe back a few thousand years and gave birth to right wing christian fanatics. If my calculations are correct we should reach sexual enlightenment in about 800 years. But then again, beastiality is legal in my state so maybe it's happening now.
Soulforged
08-06-2005, 22:33
Correct me if i'm wrong but Alexander fell deeply in love (or lust) with his wife. Hephaeston was his friend and lover, but perhaps he only loved him beacuse he was his friend, and being with a man in public in ancient greece was a sign of status, that's why there were many of "them". And bisexuality is (for another thread) another myth (not historic perhaps).
Templar Knight
08-06-2005, 22:36
what a weird thread...
LeftEyeNine
08-07-2005, 00:27
gah! close this stupid thread mods. :snobby:
It's strange to hear such a complaint from the discussion starter of "masturbation stuns growth?" thread :inquisitive:
Colovion
08-07-2005, 00:43
Correct me if i'm wrong but Alexander fell deeply in love (or lust) with his wife. Hephaeston was his friend and lover, but perhaps he only loved him beacuse he was his friend, and being with a man in public in ancient greece was a sign of status, that's why there were many of "them". And bisexuality is (for another thread) another myth (not historic perhaps).
bisexuality is a myth? haha. hardly.
A lot of people weren't closed minded about sexuality and realized that for the most part sexuality is something which allows you to bond with another human being in a way that is not merely vocal, but deals with two-way pleasure, physical delight and sexual communion. It's the same way as with someone who is married to someone else except instead of simply one person or one sex, it's both and all.
the fact remains that he loved both women and men sexually. He also loved them both emotionally. I really see no problem with that.
Soulforged
08-07-2005, 02:29
I don't know for certain. There're psicological studies (mostly on the US, like always) and confesions from ex-bisexuals, that say there's no bisexuality, the studies demostrated that the so called bisexuals only react sexually to one of the sexs (mostly the same as the interviewed) and the confesions say that they were never bisexuals, the great majority said it so they will not be marginalized by others, now why the people beleaves that bisexuality is more worthy or normal than homosexuality i don't know, it doesn't matter really, there is nothing wrong with both of them, also if you say this then you can't say things like homosexuals can have sons bla,bla,bla... because they will grow anormaly, this is the result of the all-knowing mind of some people that thinks that they know what's right or wrong, but really there's nothing wrong with an election, also if their sons result gays, then what... Ok i'm going too far on this one... And it wasn't only Alexander, it was Aristotle, Plato...
caesar44
08-07-2005, 07:03
Alexander was gay ? Who cares...he conquered the world , women and...men ~D ~D ~D
swirly_the_toilet_fish
08-07-2005, 07:13
True. Who really cares? I know that a lot of people in present-day Greece do not like to think of Alexander as a homosexual or bi-sexual man, but who really cares? He conquered the known civilized world at that point. "Live fast, die young," must have originated with him in some way. :smartass:
One should consider this:
If I say I love my best friend(s), does that mean I played in the bed with them? Go to the east (in Kashmir for instance) to find that men do go hand in hand, even kiss and so on, does that make them gay? Not to me. That just means they are relaxed about how you can express your love, in this case friendly love.
In Greece pure homosexualism was highly disregarded, for instance the two men that overthrew the last tyrant of Athens caused an outrage after a while when it was found out that they were physical lovers (and no women allowed).
Do not be so close minded to presume that when Alexander is mentioned to love Hephaistion that he did physically. Maybe he did, I don't know. But the simply fact that he was madly in love with Roxanna and that he had quite a few female lovers and concubines (with children as proof) indicates that he was no eaxactly gay. At best he enjoyed his time to the fullest with Hephaistion and a few other men. But obviously his real interest lay with women.
Gay? NO!
Strike For The South
08-07-2005, 16:47
Talk about thread staying power ~:cheers:
Azi Tohak
08-07-2005, 17:25
Wow, PJ, GC, and swirly have all lost money!
Anyway, this is just like when people talk about Gaius Julius Caesar and his... relationships... with other men. It was just kind of how life worked. But hey, Gaius Julius was also very much involved with the most famous w**** of the ancient world, Cleopatra (Kleo whatever). That was just kind of how life worked.
And there is no doubt that Alexander was weird. He thought he was descended from a God! Not much weirder than that!
Azi
And there is no doubt that Alexander was weird. He thought he was descended from a God! Not much weirder than that!
Azi
Well, that can be discussed. Was he merely a deranged man gifted in battle or was he also a very shrewd politician?
The people of the time believed that the gods certainly could meddle in life physically, for instance impregnating women. Playing on his own mother and father's family myths (both decended from gods supposedly) he could easily have been making it easier for the Greeks to accept his suzerainity by creating a more close devinity. A very shrewd and brilliant move actually. Now his ability in battle and war underlined this stance a whole lot, and it can actually have been born out of his own confidence in battle. For if he lost a serious battle nobody would believe in him.
We can laugh at this because the nobles obviously didn't accept this, and why should they? They knew him personally and knew there was nothing devine about him (some claimed looks and so on but nothing serious), and it is from them we have the stories. Ptolomy, who wrote his own history (memoires really) of Alexander was a major influence of the later writers, and he was one of those very close to Alexander. Of course he didn't belive in the devinity, and must have made sure other people got to know that.
Of course Alexander lost his mind later on, and could easily have begun to believe his own lie. But it is also likely that the Persian submitment, which was to Greeks only to be done to the Gods, was a major point of this idea of Alexander believing himself a god. Alexander was caught in a tough spot, should he stop the practice and insult the Persians, or should he do the opposite to his Macedonains. Eventually he tried to do a compromise (first they submitted to him, then he submitted to them), which the Macedonians never accepted.
Steppe Merc
08-07-2005, 18:13
Indeed, now that I think about it, him claiming to be a god was quite smart. The Persian King of Kings were seen as sort of divine, and they would probably bow to him easier "knowing" that he was divine, like Darius and his predescosors (or semi divine).
And the Egyptians I think accepted him easier due to his divinity, though that could have been a myth.
caesar44
08-08-2005, 08:29
Wow, PJ, GC, and swirly have all lost money!
Anyway, this is just like when people talk about Gnaeus Julius Caesar and his... relationships... with other men. It was just kind of how life worked. But hey, Gnaeus Julius was also very much involved with the most famous w**** of the ancient world, Cleopatra (Kleo whatever). That was just kind of how life worked.
And there is no doubt that Alexander was weird. He thought he was descended from a God! Not much weirder than that!
Azi
I am sure that you meant Gaius Iulius Caesar .
Azi Tohak
08-10-2005, 00:14
Ahem... yes... quite... Thanks caesar44, for the Gaius. I had just been reading about Pompey. But I'll not use the I. That just looks funny to me.
Anyway, thanks Kraxis, I had forgotten about his flakiness with it. I wonder if he went nuts from power or lead? Both happened to Roman Emperors (well, I'm sure lots of other people too, but they are the most famous).
Azi
amazon77
08-12-2005, 11:00
Well, when you ask was alexander gay or not, it's like asking is a girl in a scanty mini dress a prostitute or not? On the girl part, the answer is, today no, but 100 years ago yes. Actually not even hookers would wear that at that time ~:) . The same goes for alexander and all ancient greeks. In their time having relations with other men was considered naturall. Perhaps it involved the teaching of the younger by the older, even in the field of love and love-making. I believe that for certain alexander had relationships with men, but that he wasn't actually gay. I mean a gay person only likes ppl of the same sex, but alexander did have several relationships with women and he married at least 2, the daughter of Darius first and then Roxane, from which he had a child (after his death). Now, if he married Statira (Darius daughter) just for adding a legitimate claim to the Achaimenid throne, he needn't have married Roxane to have an heir. He could do his "duty" with Statira just fine.
Thus my conclusion is Alexander wasn't gay, he just had relations with men, but that was a part of the ancient greek culture.
History should be about evidentiary claims. If Alexander had gay relationships: what is the evidence? It is not enough to claim buggery was a practice in Greece. One has to show Alexander was involved. What is this evidence?
Gregoshi
08-13-2005, 06:11
yeah i to thought it would have been clcosed by now.
Then why start the thread? If you (everyone) are ever in doubt about the appropriateness of a topic you wish to start, please feel free to PM me first.
Had I seen this thread within the first dozen posts, it would have been closed. A few have managed to salvage some form of decent discussion on the topic. Let's see where we go from here. Keep in mind the forum rules regarding language and civility towards others. Thank you.
amazon77
08-13-2005, 11:49
History should be about evidentiary claims. If Alexander had gay relationships: what is the evidence? It is not enough to claim buggery was a practice in Greece. One has to show Alexander was involved. What is this evidence?
I agree with you, since we talk about a particular person, we must have particular evidence about him. But i meant to say, even if that evidence is found, it wouldn't make him "gay" as the term we use today in our societies.
Gemenii XIII
08-13-2005, 18:09
In ancient greece, gays were often thought of as servants to the gods and were not only accepted but worshipped. Until the Romans came and said WTF is going on and changed a few things in greek society
Byzantine Prince
08-13-2005, 18:11
Errrr. No gays were definetly not worshiped anywhere. Where did you get that? lol.
The Romans were not conservatives either, ever heard of Julius Caesar and how he liked getting it? In fact the Greek states had rules against it. The Romans were just do what you feel like kind of guys.
King of Atlantis
08-13-2005, 18:52
Rome certainly didnt change greek cuture, it adotpted it, ever here about what happend at the baths ~:eek: . Thenn Augustus tried to bring about some moral changes, but im not sure how succesful he was.
anyways, Alexander was probably not gay, but possibly had sexual relations with men. In modern days the previous statment couldnt really be true, but it was in ancient greece.
And seriously VAE VICTUS, this topic is acceptaable, but your first post really seem like you wanted this to be closed, very, very confusing...
In modern days the previous statment couldnt really be true, but it was in ancient greece.
What? Sex with other men = gay??? It does not mean that at all, not now not ever. Gay means you have erotic and romantic feelings about persons ofthe same sex, but not those of the other sex. So sex with the same sex does not automatically make you gay, unless you only feel something for the same sex, but then again you would have been gay long before you ever had sex with anybody.
conon394
08-14-2005, 05:21
Byzantine Prince
...in fact the Greek states had rules against it
Some did, some did not (have any particular laws) and some were very open and accepting of what we would call homosexual sex and or relations. The real error is asserting some broad standard morality for all of the 1000 or more independent Greek polis on the issue of sex and/or sexuality.
Gemenii XIII
08-15-2005, 20:44
Errrr. No gays were definetly not worshiped anywhere. Where did you get that? lol.
The Romans were not conservatives either, ever heard of Julius Caesar and how he liked getting it? In fact the Greek states had rules against it. The Romans were just do what you feel like kind of guys.
I know about how the romans liked getting it on but I doubt that homosexuality was accepted anywere in the empire (although there was this transvestite emperor who had an african boyfriend. He was killed by his pretorian guard. Rightfully so). But I remember on Dicovery CIvilization the there was an episode on greek mythology and the ancient Greek way of life. It said that the Oracle at Delhi had made a prophesy about the how homosexuals were Servants of gods.
And Gaius Julius Caesar never caught anything thats just an ancient rumore
Gemenii XIII
08-15-2005, 20:56
Rome certainly didnt change greek cuture, it adotpted it, ever here about what happend at the baths ~:eek: . Thenn Augustus tried to bring about some moral changes, but im not sure how succesful he was.
anyways, Alexander was probably not gay, but possibly had sexual relations with men. In modern days the previous statment couldnt really be true, but it was in ancient greece.
And seriously VAE VICTUS, this topic is acceptaable, but your first post really seem like you wanted this to be closed, very, very confusing...
The Romans did romanize some things in ancient greece, maybe not the language but some of the culture they did. For example: they introduced the greek public to gladiatorial games. Even though the Romans adopted many Greek cultural properties including religion. Practically the entire Roman way of life was modelled after Greek culture but that doesn't mean that over 1500 years of Roman domination. Greece didn't accept some Roman qualities. In fact there was a Greek philosopher (cant remember his name) who said " an attaack on Rome is an attack on Greece"
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