Did Atomics or Soviets end WWII?

[Marquis of Roland]

On August 8, 1945, a Soviet army of 1.5 million troops invaded Northern China, an area the size of western europe. They engaged and encircled the Japanese Kwantung Army, and obliterated 1 million fighting men of the Japanese. Japan heavily depended on the resources they had in Northern China to continue the war against the United States and China.

So was dropping the atomic bombs more influential to Japanese surrender, or the Soviets invading Northern China (which, incidentally, set up the Chinese Communist victory over the Nationalists in 1949 and also the Korean War in 1950).

Saw this in the news, thought I might bring it up here.

[Red Harvest]

It was the bomb. The Soviets didn't rush in until the bomb. They realized that if they didn't, the war would be over before they could get a stake in post war Asia. The Japanese could resist the Russians, they could resist the Americans and other allies, but they couldn't fight the bomb. As such, it provided a means of a somewhat honorable surrender.

[TosaInu]

Russia annexated territory after Japan surrendered. Territory exchanged by Japan and Russia before WW2 (Koerilen Islands).

[TosaInu]

Were Korea and Manchuria parts of Japan before WW2, Gelatinus Cube?

[Kagemusha]

I agree with Red Harvest.A-bombs made Japan surrender.I think without those bombs Allies would have faced horrible battle at Japans main islands. :bow:

[TosaInu]

I must have misunderstood. I thought you were trying to say they did not occupy any Japanese territory (of any kind) until after the bombs.

I don't know about those other parts. Russia and Japan exchanged land before WW2 (fair terms and friendly). I believe Russia was given Sachalin in exchange for Koerilen Islands. Russia took those Koerilen Islands back after Japan surrendered after the A-bombs. The waters around those islands are very rich and thus important for Japan. Motive of Russia was to protect (future) militairy harbors?

There's still turmoil about that annexation.

Edit:

Got to read this myself as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril_Islands

Hmm, Castrictum, that name rings a bell. The period is about right too. Some Dutch sailors were captured in Japan. Funny stuff, it went so far that some dutch fake ambassador was sent to Japan to kiss up.

The Prisoners from Nambu: The Breskens affair in Historical and Historiographical Perspective by Reinier Herman Hesselink DA9312196 ISBN 90.5730.130.x mentions Castricom, Maarten Gerritsz. de Vries. Yes, that's the same mission.

[Marquis of Roland]

I assume you specifically talk about Japan after Germany surrendered. I'm also going to assume you watched "The Last Days of World War II" on the History Channel last night? 'tis a good series for those interested in World War II. It covers all the basics better than most textbooks.

Naw, I actually read it in the news. I didn't know it was on history channel. ~:confused:

[tibilicus]

The bomb ended the war quite obviously. The U.S could of done a land invasion costing 1 million american lives or they could end it with one bomb. This does not make it right that the innocent Japanese citizens lives were taken by the bomb but if you compare roughly 2000 lives to 1 million the statistics speak for them selves. The U.S basically said after the second bomb was dropped you can surrender now or we can destroy your cities one by one. As for the soviets from what I have always understood they only really bothered annexing parts of Japanese land after the bomb to spread there influence in Asia, wich they did manage to do converting many countries to communism.

[Meneldil]

Were Korea and Manchuria parts of Japan before WW2, Gelatinus Cube?

Wasn't Korea annexed way before WWII ? Like in the 10's or something like that. And Mandchouria was 'annexed' in 1931, way before 1939 (although the region was said to be an 'independant country'.

[swirly_the_toilet_fish]

The bombs, but they were a bluff. We had only two, and the scientists actually believed the bombs would set the atmosphere on fire and destroy the entire planet. We dropped the only two we had. We could make more, but not readily. The Russians poised to strike against Japan, combined with the Allies but the bluff of more bombs destroying their infrastructure made them surrender.

[Flavius Clemens]

We had only two, and the scientists actually believed the bombs would set the atmosphere on fire and destroy the entire planet.
I saw a drama documentary about the Manhatten Project years ago on the BBC (maybe around the 50th anniversary) and that had a scene where Oppenheimer told their military liaison officer that one of the scientists had raised this fear, but when the others did the calculations it turned out to be a miniscule probability. (If I remember right it was 3 in several million.)

[Csargo]

The bombs ended WWII with Japan all the Russians did was destroy a large army in Manchuria they hadn't threatened the Japanese islands and if they were going to they were to late because the Americans ended the war with the atomic bombs

~:cheers:

[Kraxis]

If the bombs hadn't been dropped it is likely that the Japanese would have surrendered anyway, not because of the Russians. They sped that up of course, but Japan was down and out because of the lack of strategic meterials. She was exhausted and as mentioned earlier the Emperor finally began to act and not just sit silently as he was 'supposed' to.

Should the invasion have happened the Russians would have been sitting happily in Korea waving as the American and British ships sailed past. They had no large scale experience at naval landings and they lacked the transports and landingsships. Perhaps they would have joined later when Kyushu was taken, but they would not have been at the forefront.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If the bombs hadn't been dropped it is likely that the Japanese would have surrendered anyway, not because of the Russians. They sped that up of course, but Japan was down and out because of the lack of strategic meterials. She was exhausted and as mentioned earlier the Emperor finally began to act and not just sit silently as he was 'supposed' to.

You dont know the Japanese then. They even tried a coup to stop the surrender. These peole did not think like westerners any more than arabs think like westerners today. This is where many go wrong using their ideas and ethics as the base for all others.

[Kraxis]

You dont know the Japanese then. They even tried a coup to stop the surrender. These peole did not think like westerners any more than arabs think like westerners today. This is where many go wrong using their ideas and ethics as the base for all others.
A minority within the military attempted that. Do not lump them together like that.
The Japanese would do his duty, and not ask questions. They are, and I don't like to say it really, like ants. For the common good, not the idividual.

But even the militaristic military was finally softening up, especially the airforce and navy, of course their old enemy the army wanted the long fight. It could even be argued that they wanted the fight because the other two wanted the peace, it was that bad between them. And even in the army it was a minority that really wanted it.

[Kagemusha]

I think we all have to remember that Japan was still in its Impearilistic phase in WWII .They were fanatics,but you dont hear anything about Japanese Holocaust camps.Because there were non.After Russo-Japanese war they just thought that they could win a fight against any Superpower.And if someone thinks that Japanese main islands would have been peace of cake,.I would like to see some evidence. :bow:

[scaddenp]

I think both. Soviet invasion DID matter. If Japan lost its chinese/korean
possessions how could it possible fight? Using what fuel? what food? what
materials? As others have pointed out, the end was coming anyway. The question was on what terms? Between them these events would say no terms
but I would love to know if there is a record of the final cabinet meetings.

[Papewaio]

I think we all have to remember that Japan was still in its Impearilistic phase in WWII .They were fanatics,but you dont hear anything about Japanese Holocaust camps.Because there were non.


Ah dude I think you should reassess your statement that the Japanese didn't have Holocaust camps. They treated POWs pretty poorly and on par with German Holocaust camps.

The sacking of NanKing is as brutal as anything done in Germanys deatj camps, over 300,000 civilians slaughtered. Japanese soldiers took bets on what sex an unborn child was then opened up the mother killing both to find out who one the bet. etc

When the Japanese defeated Singapore they bayoneted hospital patients.

Then there was the death marches where if a prisoner fell down they were executed.

Burma railroad.

Nerve agents where tested on the civilian population.

The list is pretty long. And if you bother to find out what the Japanese did it is as every bit as evil as the German Nazis.

==== EDIT ====


It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers — and, in the case of the Japanese, as prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4 per cent chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30 per cent

Japanese war crimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_War_Atrocities)

[Redleg]

We had a pretty long discussion on just this issue in the backroom - but more along the lines of the ethics - but in essences the Atomic bombs ended the war.

Instead of retyping all of the information here is a link to the previous discussion. Its a 7 page politicial discussion - that got pretty heated - but the facts are there

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=42293&page=2&pp=30

[Gemenii XIII]

The atomic bomb was a political engagement and had little to do with ending the war for the sake of saving allied lives. The americans knew that after the soviets "liberated" most of europe, they would turn to Japan for political control of the country. Japan and Russia have been in a conflict prior to WWII (russo japan war in 1908), in which the soviets lost the Hokido island to the japanese. WWII gave the soviets the perfect reason for attacking Japan. To cease Soviet expansion, the americans dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan in order for it to surrender before the Soviets invaded. This was the main reason for the bombs of Japan. It was a political move by Harry S Truman. In the long run, the atomic bombs caused more good than harm for Japan as it is the second largest economy in the world. A feat that would be impossible had the soviets invaded.

[Redleg]

The atomic bomb was a political engagement and had little to do with ending the war for the sake of saving allied lives.

And you would be incorrect in that assessment.



The americans knew that after the soviets "liberated" most of europe, they would turn to Japan for political control of the country. Japan and Russia have been in a conflict prior to WWII (russo japan war in 1908), in which the soviets lost the Hokido island to the japanese. WWII gave the soviets the perfect reason for attacking Japan.

Yes indeed the Soviet Union entered into the Pacific War for terrority gain - and a promise made by Stalin in 1943.



To cease Soviet expansion, the americans dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan in order for it to surrender before the Soviets invaded. This was the main reason for the bombs of Japan.

It was actually a secondary reason one that is rarely discussed within the history circles in the Unied States - the primary reasons can be found at this site

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/bomb/large/index.php



It was a political move by Harry S Truman. In the long run, the atomic bombs caused more good than harm for Japan as it is the second largest economy in the world. A feat that would be impossible had the soviets invaded.

The soviets were not going to invade Japan - they were after many other things - but doing a sea invasion was not part of their plan.

[Odin1985]

well i dont know i know many of here have the irhgt minds and in terms of the true reason for a surrender we might never know unless those responsible for the surrender speak up, but still there are way too many ppl and probably many had different ideas on why they did what they did, what i can tell is from different researches i did on this subjects, as well as if the atomic bomb was really necesary for the end of the way, i can tell for sure that probably was the result of different situations like for examples:

1.- the shortage of territory and resources, japan was loosing territories and resources at an incredible rate after germany was destroyed this is probably cuz of most of the militar army of the allies where targeting japan, also with the reduction of the japanese fleet of ships, and water forces they where in no way a menace to the allied superiority in the water, with more carriers and ships like destroyers, they where able to send more troops(paratroopers) or bombs and others things not only that usa came too close to japan they where able to send long range bombers to attack the cities with no big problem, plus usa had the suppor of china at that moment and they also had chinas land to send attacks.(no atomic bomb would be included in this part yet)

2.- resources: japan had lost probably almost 25% to a 50% of their forces, including planes, tanks, bunkers fields, bases and units, like pilots, engineers, and many others, they had almost no food for the population, most of hte rice produced which was the main way of suppliying the population prewar, was going to feeding the army, so you can imagine the moral decrement this was giving in the long run, not only that they had lost most of the ways to train new units, most of the units left in the city where kamikaze units, prepared to throw themself to tanks and batallions with explosives around them (like terrorist), they hospitals whre short of alomst everything the population was running on mosly old ppl, young ppl and women, since almost all man where called to war, like in germany; several cities where taken to the ground with the huge amount of the bombs that where dropped in the cities it was over 3 times the ammount used in all germany together.

3.- alliances, he lost his posible helpers with the lost of italy and germany japan was facing england and usa at this moment alone plus fighting china and posibly other rebels around the place, they had no way to get help with all the water ways blocked, airsupport was idiotic with no way to get it and at any change the allied air supperiority would take it out instantly, new advances that the japanese were lacking also had then in disadvantage.

that would be mostly what you can understand of japan at the moment a almost compleate destroyed society and country, only the pratriotic feeling gave them hope since with them it was his emperor hiro hito, which gave them hope, also the thinking of the generals knowing that the country woudl give them everything including their lives to the survival of japan, is what you can imagine of that moment, so now lets look at why russia took so long to get in the fight at by the point russia was only at war with germany japan had not gotten in any problems with japan so they had no war on them.

in previous years by the time of the zar nicholay, before the stalin, trosky, and lenin, japan got in a war with russia and destroyed them in what can be called a shamefull defeat, when lenin got into power to stop this japanese war, they had to give away pieces of territories to japan, many islands by this matter, so deep inside the russians didnt want to revive this hard memories even tho they had more power in many ways, still fear can be a mayor adversary in case of fighting if the ppl got to fear at this point they woudl probably lost many chances and probably given the japanese a chance to survive by conquering russia, and getting more hope from them, since they could force russia to help them by not destroying them, but any case russia took long to act, and they basicaly acted cuz of the constant petitions of the other 2 allied presidents, they called russia to act since with a 2 way attack they would probably get japan to surrender with more haste, or more early, this was not a posibility until very in the end when they woudl probably gotten the surrender too.

As for the atomic bomb.

1.- the atomic bomb was at first idealiced as a weapon of mass destruction to give usa the primary power effect, making other nations fear this new menace would help usa make the ppl bend their way, they acted fast and used a lot of money in this including making the B52 a huge plane that would be able to easily carry this huge weapon.

2.- the cities choosen to this where in a way selected cuz of many factors including high military cities, nice population buildings and the form of the city would provide max destructions remember that hiroshima, was between mountains which woudl attack in more the attack as the mountains would atack as huge walls that would contain the force in a way, also nagasaky was mearly a what we can call be in a bad place at the bad time, is true it was in he plans to attack as a posibility but it was cuz the real target had bad weather (call them unlucky =( ).

3.- even tho usa had said that the bomb was used to force the surrender and not waste number of lives this was a part of the truth practicaly truman had in mind at first was to show what:

3.1- this bomb can do the inmense power of destruction at what can be an instant and also in a long term(radiation effect)

3.2- that they had the power and where not affraid to use it.

that why there where basicaly 2 bombs not only 1, they had in mind at first use them bombs, there where counting on the stuburness of japanese leaders to not surernder at once, at such in a time of days they used the second one leaving not that big of a window to do anything to leaders, is true the leaders got in meeting not too long, actualy was more in hours of the hiroshima explotion, but still truman and military leaders said that from the beggining they had though of using 2 bombs, (doing that i said with 3.1 and 3.2) show what they had and show them that they where not affraid to use if more than once, whitout remorse of the consequense.

Basicaly you can see that the act of using the bomb was not needed it might had pushed japan to surrender but with the way there were going by just doing a siege of the island they woudl had won either way, or just by using regular bombs which altho innefective in pressition they were effective in reducing the power of his army; russia got involve very lately like the use of the bombs was just one more addition to the innevitable, japan had not so much fear of russia mostly of the whole alliance, of the 3 countries and the abilities they had as a whole.

other things to get in consideration; one time a japanese scientific had told that japan was in the way of developing a nuclear weapon also, they just didnt had enough time or resources for that matter, plus is woudl had taken them 10 years or so to compleate but once they had it they where not affraid to use them with anyone.

[Odin1985]

sorry for the bad enligh on my previous post also i couldnt find the edit button to add this simple comment

[Gregoshi]

Welcome Odin! ~:wave:


Since you recently signed up, your membership level is "Junior Member" and as such, you don't have an Edit button. No worries though, Tosa will soon bump up your status to "Member" and you'll then get your edit button.

[pezhetairoi]

I just want to make a short post to challenge the premise of the question, assuming we are talking about short-term triggers here.

It was neither the Bomb nor the Soviets that ended the war; it was Hirohito.

[Papewaio]

Correct, an adult accepts that it his choice in the situation, not the situation that chooses.

[Odin1985]

yeah but also it was the heads of the japanese empire like the military heads, hirohito was not that big of a part, it was more as a inspiration, he didnt get in many of the matters of the military, altho he did had a part in everything

[KSEG]

The Soviets deffinately.
Even without the drop of the A-bomb, the Japanese would've been forced to surrender in few weeks, or their food stock would run out and peoples will starve to death.
Only thing that kept Japan from surrender was

Hope of having a cease fire rather then surrender by negotiating through USSR

and

Whether if the emperor would be left untouched was not specified in Potsdam declaration.