PDA

View Full Version : Countdown to Open Beta - Koinon Hellenon



Teleklos Archelaou
08-08-2005, 00:31
Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans!


I’ll be making the preview post this week, hope you’re not too disappointed though. The sun's still up on Sunday afternoon where I'm at, but I've been told this might be a little more like a "Monday Morning Hangover Cure" by some. ~D

For this week’s preview, a lot of thanks must go around. For units, most praise should be directed towards Spartan Warrior and our long lost friend chemchok as well (who, at an earlier date, was our faction coordinator). I can't say enough to praise SW, who as everyone knows already, keeps amazing us week after week, and is an absolute machine. ~D Our faction icon, which I think is possibly our best, is the work of Parmenio. Work on unit descriptions was mostly handled by Urnamma, with the help of others. Recent active historical advisors for this faction include QwertyMIDX and myself. For the most part I wrote the faction description, compiled the image for the faction banner, and have updated our .gif map to include this faction with our others released so far. So many other people have contributed heavily to this faction’s development though – in things we still aren’t releasing here. Thanks also go out to our scripting team and to Malrubius who has done a lot with our Hellenic traits (we will give you a little glimpse of what we have done with them below). Many others have contributed along the way, but the list grows so long, that we might never get to the preview itself if we keep going!

So, without further rambling, this week, the EB team is proud to present:


https://img161.imageshack.us/img161/5651/logogreeks1medium6uj.jpg

https://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4387/pegasos6wk1gx.gif

The two urns on the floor of Zeus' palace do indeed hold a mixture of good and evil for all. The glorious summer of the fifth century, when the relatively small poleis of Athenai and Sparte turned away the combined might of a terrible empire, when each in turn possessed naval empires and controlled lands far from their native soils, is gone. Today they are but splendid memories perpetuated by the philosophers who walk the streets of Athena’s city on the hill. The gifts of Zeus have been full of sorrow for them from the day in 338 that a teen-aged boy named Alexandros led a successful cavalry charge into their midst at Chaironeia (and even then the Athenians were tricked into believing victory was theirs; "On to Makedonia!" was their cry before the young prince stormed the gap their rash charge had left open and smashed the ranks of their allies from behind). But the god turns his sorrow now towards the north and the Makedonian fetters have been partially broken at last! Athenai herself is freed, though Attike itself cannot rest from the threat of Antigonos’ soldiers. Sparte renews the agoge military training of its sons and has men strong enough to campaign as mercenaries far from their home in the Eurotas valley. Rhodos, who has rarely if ever looked outside the shores of her island except where money could be made, possesses naval might and trading clout that might be harnessed more efficiently in tandem with other powers. Realizing it is in her best interests at the time being to do so, Rhodos has joined the other two ancient cities in the hopes of warding off their common enemies. Individually, they are small, regional powers. But sharing common interests and facing their enemies together, there is hope at least.

To cope with Makedonian advances in phalanx warfare, changes in traditional hoplite equipment have been made. Lighter armed but faster hoplitai now can chase down and deal more effectively with the threat of peltastai, and the more elite hoplitai have a better chance, with some help, of staving off the Makedonian troops. Spartan hoplitai are still among the most feared troops in the Mediterranean, but they are not easy to come by, their numbers are greatly reduced, and it is arguable whether or not they are the equals of their ancestors on the field of battle. Something of a return to ancient styles has been brought to some cities, still retained by others, where shorter spears and javelins can deal better with the threat of Roman troops than hoplites, though their use still has not been perfected against those western forces. With the help of light armed peltastai and archers, and a few cavalry options that have evolved with the rise of Makedonian equipment and techniques, there is much hope in the renewed strength of Hellas.

This alliance of city-states is nowhere near as powerful as they once were individually. Each can contribute their share and while a second great age is a distant possibility, their enemies surround them and there is no foreign shore upon which they can assuredly rely for help. Makedonia is your first concern as a leader of the Hellenes, and you might feel their grip tighten before this very year is up; to allay fears at Pella by begging for their mercy or to smash the other fetters at Korinthos, Demetrias, and Chalkis will be one of the first decisions you must make. The best hope for Hellas probably lies in controlling the wine-dark seas that surround them, and the small rebel factions across it and on islands nearby. Krete, currently too divided by many factions to be firmly under your control, will surely join your cause if “coerced” and indeed Sparta’s king is there even at this moment, ostensibly attempting to hire other Cretans as mercenaries. His presence might be turned to your advantage if he is supplemented with other soldiers or he recruits mercenaries there effectively enough. Though it lies but a short distance from Rhodos itself, Halikarnassos is a tempting target for many Asian powers, and the Ptolemaioi have had some troops and diplomats in parts of Karia for some time now. Other Hellenic cities across the Mediterranean may appear to be tempting, but although Kyrene and Massalia and Emporion and Chersonesos and Sinope are homes for other sympathetic Hellenes, and although all seem to be sources of potential wealth and allies, you will face resistance wherever you go (unless money is no object of course!).

To the chief problem at hand: the Makedonians and their king, Antigonos Gonatas, have enemies, and if at all possible it would be best to exploit their weaknesses as quickly as possible. No other foes are immediate. The grasping hands of power-hungry Roman generals have eyes on our western coasts, but they also have their hands full with other peoples for the time being. The Ptolemaioi have some sympathy for your cause and their advisors and deep purses might be available, though they will ultimately only try to better their own expanding power base in the Aigaion by helping you. Beware the marauding general Pyrrhos. Although he is very talented, and he might be bought off to aid your cause, his huge forces would be expensive to maintain and he may well be regarded by both you and the Makedonians as a “rebel”, who will harm anyone that finds themselves close enough to him to be attacked. Whether or not you choose to free your kinsmen in Megale Hellas ("Italia," Hah!) and Sikelia, will be your choice, but remember and do not take lightly the sea power of the men of Karchedon. Have faith, Strategos! Zeus and the fates may yet return a share of good to Athena’s two favorite cities and to the shores of Rhodos. The war with Antigonos and his men will not soon abate, and it might be possible this time, if indeed we are favored by the god, that we will find truth in our cry of “On to Makedonia!”


https://img290.imageshack.us/img290/4736/dividergreek27vk.gif

Historical Situation of the Koinon Hellenon “Alliance of the Hellenes” in 272 B.C.:
The former Greek faction is now made up of Athens, Sparta, and Rhodes. This selection has been chosen to represent the alliance formed by several poleis of Hellas prior to the outbreak of the Chremonidean War (c.266-260). The war is named after Chremonides, the Athenian statesman who formed the alliance in an effort to counter the threat of Makedonian hegemony.

Gods. In the archonship of Peithedemos, in the second prytany, that of (the tribe) Erechtheis, on the ninth (day) of Metageitnion, the ninth (day) of the prytany, (in) a statutory assembly. Of the prohedroi Sostratos, son of Kallistratos, of (the deme) Erchia, and his fellow prohedroi put the motion to the vote. Resolved by the demos: Chremonides, son of Eteokles, of (the deme) Aithalidai, spoke: Whereas in former times the Athenians and the Lacedaemonians and the allies of each, after making friendship and common alliance with one another, together fought many noble struggles alongside one another against those who were trying to enslave the cities, from which deeds they both won for themselves fair reputation and brought about freedom for the rest of the Greeks, and (whereas) now, when similar circumstances have overtaken all Greece on account of those who are trying to overthrow the laws and the ancestral institutions of each (of the cities), King Ptolemy, in accordance with the policy of his ancestors and his sister, shows clearly his concern for the common freedom of the Greeks, and the demos of the Athenians, having made an alliance with him, has voted to urge the rest of the Greeks toward the same policy; and, likewise, the Lacedaemonians, being friends and allies of King Ptolemy, have voted an alliance with the demos of the Athenians, along with the Eleians and Achaeans and Tegeans and Mantineians and Orchomenians and Phialians and Kaphyans and as many of the Cretans as are in the alliance of the Lacedaemonians and Areus and the other allies, and have sent ambassadors from the synhedroi to the demos (of the Athenians), and their ambassadors having arrived, make clear the zealous concern which the Lacedaemonians and Areus and the rest of the allies have toward the demos of the Athenians, and bring with them the agreement about the alliance; (and) in order that, a state of common concord having come to exist among the Greeks, the Greeks may be, along with King Ptolemy and with each other, eager contenders against those who have wronged the cities and violated their treaties with them, and may for the future with mutual good-will save the cities; with good fortune, be it resolved by the demos: that the friendship and alliance of the Athenians with the Lacedaemonians and the Kings of the Lacedaemonians, and the Eleians and Achaeans and Tegeans and Mantineians and Orchomenians and Phialians and Kaphyans and as many of the Cretans as are in the alliance of the Lacedaemonians and Areus and the rest of the allies, be valid for all {time, the one which} the ambassadors bring with them; and that {the} secretary of the prytany have (it) inscribed on a bronze stele and {set up} on the Acropolis, by the temple of Athena Polias; and that {the} magistrates {swear} to the ambassadors who have come {from them the oath} about the alliance, according to {ancestral custom}; and to send {the} ambassadors {who have been} elected by the demos to receive the oaths {from} the {rest of the Greeks}; and further, that {the demos immediately} elect {two} synhedroi {from among} all {the Athenians} who shall deliberate {about the common} good with Areus and the synhedroi {sent by the allies}; and that {those in charge} of public administration distribute to those chosen (as synhedroi) provisions for as long as they shall be away {whatever} the demos shall decide {when electing them}; and to Praise {the ephors} of the Lacedaemonians and Areus and the allies, {and to crown them} with a gold crown in accordance with the law; {and further, to praise the} ambassadors who have come from them, Theom {. . . of Lacedae}mon and Argeios son of Kleinias of Elis, {and to crown} each of them with a gold crown, in accordance with {the law, on account of their zealous concern} and the good-will which they bear toward {the rest of the allies} and the demos of the Athenians; and that {each of them} be entitled to receive {other} benefits from the boule {and the demos, if they seem} to deserve {any}; and to invite them {also to receive hospitality} tomorrow {in the prytaneion}, and that the secretary of the prytany have inscribed {this decree also and the agreement} upon a {stone} stele and have it set up on the Acropolis, and that those in charge of {public administration} allocate {the expense for the inscription and erection} of the stele, {whatever it} may be. The following were elected synhedroi: Kallippos of (the deme) Eleusis, {and- - - }.

The treaty and alliance {of the Lacedaemonians and the allies} of the Lacedaemonians with {the Athenians and the allies} of the Athenians, {to be valid} for all {time}: {Each (of the parties)}, being {free} and autonomous, {is to have its own territory, using its own political institutions in accordance with} ancestral tradition. If anyone {comes with war as their object against the land} of the Athenians or {is overthrowing} the laws, {or comes with war as their object against} the allies of the Athenians, {the Lacedaemonians and the allies} of the Lacedaemonians {shall come to the rescue in full strength to the best of their ability. If} anyone comes with war as their object {against the land of the Lacedaemonians}, or is overthrowing {the} laws, {or comes with war as their object against the allies} of the Lacedaemonians, {the Athenians and the allies of the Athenians shall come to the rescue in full strength to the best of their ability.} - - - The (following) Athenians swear the oath to the Lacedaemonians {and to those from each} city: the strategoi and the {boule of 600 and the} archons and the phylarchs and the taxiarchs {and the hipparchs}. “I swear by Zeus, Ge, Helios, Ares, Athena Areia, {Poseidon, Demeter} that I shall remain in the alliance that has been made; {to those abiding by this oath} may many good things befall, to those not, the opposite.” (Of the Lacedaemonians} (the following) swear the same oath to the Athenians: the {kings and the ephors (and)} the gerontes. And the magistrates {are to swear the same oath also in the other} cities. If {it seems preferable to the Lacedaemonians and) the allies and the Athenians (to add something) or to remove something in respect to (the terms of) the alliance, {then whatever is decided upon by both} will be in accord with the oath. (The cities are) to have {the agreement} inscribed {upon) stelai and have (them) set up in a sanctuary wherever they wish.
The alliance of these three city states brings together political entities that were not entirely cooperative (to put it mildly) during this time period, but they were not openly hostile to each other and they did agree very shortly after the opening of the game to ally themselves alongside the Ptolemaioi to fight the Makedonians. Even before the alliance was made these three groups had mutual enemies and mutual allies to a large degree. The Ptolemaioi were supplying a large proportion of the grain supplement of Athenai in 272, and were trying to thwart Makedonian growth and power whereever they could. The new alliance played up exactly what one would expect of a grouping of Athenai, Sparte, and Rhodos at this time: there was much talk of freedom of the Hellenes and a new crusade against the “barbarian” Makedonians. The term “Alliance of the Hellenes” or “Koinon Hellenon” will represent this alliance better in the long run than a temporary “Chremodian Alliance” would. This alliance however, while including certain other cities outside of those controlling these three regions, cannot include such regions as Krete, as certain cities were allied with Sparta and certain with the Ptolemaioi, and certain would best be considered havens for pirates who had the full blessing and aid of Antigonos Gonatas to raid Athenai and the islands of the Aigaion. The only certain diplomatic relations are an alliance with the Ptolemaioi and war with the Makedonians. They had close relations with many cities en route to the Euxine and still gained greatly from their contacts there and from the grain trade.

Outcomes:
Historically did this new alliance bear fruit? The Makedonians did not have to fear Pyrrhos or the Epeirotes greatly after they recovered from their perilous situation in 272. They were able then to direct their efforts towards maintaining control of the areas they already had somewhat subdued. Once the Spartan king Areus had returned to Sparte from Krete, he engaged the Makedonians in small attacks, but not in any large scale invasion. Ptolemaic aid was sent to both Sparte and Athenai once the alliance was ratified, but gave no immediate boost to the cause. The fleet under Patroklos (Makedonian-born himself) arrived in Attike to aid their cause against Antigonos, but the Makedonians had already closed off the Peiraieus (the Athenain port) and Patroklos was forced to put his fleet into smaller harbors along Attike (even today the main island he encamped upon, near Sounion, is called Patroklu by the Hellenes). Remains of Ptolemaic camps have been found also at Rhamnous, and we can tell that the Athenians even used the Ptolemaic system of weights and measures for at least three years during the war itself. Pirates under the pay of Antigonos still raided grain shipments and the Ptolemaic fleet was unable to deflect their attacks and deal with the Makedonians at the same time. The possession of Korinthos by Antigonos Gonatas remained one of the most important determinants of the outcome of the war. The Spartans, with their Peloponnesian and Cretan allies, were never able to break through the isthmus near Korinthos. He was unable to institute major reforms of the social, economic, and military affairs of the state and it affected the outcome of the war in general by the still dwindling numbers of Spartan citizens along with mounting social tension in the region. In 265 the Spartan king Areus met the Makedonians outside of Korinthos and was slain there. The Spartans, now led by Areus’ son, Akrotatos, made no further attempt to help the Athenians or their new alliance from that point onwards. While Ptolemaios gained some successes against the Makedonians, capturing a number of coastal cities in Asia Minor and throughout the Aigaion, he was reluctant to commit his forces to any large land battles. The Ptolemaic fleet was not able to break through the Makedonian blockade of Athenai and the city, starving, was forced to submit in 262. Antigonos was firmly in control. Chremonides and his brother Glaukon fled to Aigyptos and became advisors to Ptolemaios Philadelphos. Chremonides even attained the rank of a commander of the Ptolemaic fleet. Glaukon became an important priest of Alexandros there. Rhodos itself saw an increase in trade and commerce, but only because of the great decline in Athenai during this subsequent period and as a result of the outcome of the Chremonidian War. The rest of the interaction belongs to a history of the Ptolemaic and Makedonian wars, as the Hellenes were from that point onwards only pawns in their larger conflict.

Suggested Reading:
Hammond, N.G.L. 1989. The Macedonian State: The Origins, Institutions and History. Oxford.
Berthold, Richard M. 1984. Rhodes in the Hellenistic Age. Cornell.
Habicht, Christian. 1997. Athens from Alexander to Antony. Harvard.
Cartledge, Paul and Anthony Spawforth. 2002. Hellenistic and Roman Sparta: A Tale of Two Cities. Routledge.
Holbl, Gunther. 2001. A History of the Ptolemaic Empire. Routledge.
Green, Peter. 1993. Alexander to Actium: The Historical Evolution of the Hellenistic Age. California.


https://img290.imageshack.us/img290/4736/dividergreek27vk.gif

-Unit Descriptions-

http://img168.echo.cx/img168/7452/taxeishoplitaiscreen19mn.th.jpg (http://img168.echo.cx/my.php?image=taxeishoplitaiscreen19mn.jpg)
Taxeis Hoplitai:
The poorest citizens of the Hellenic cities fought as a militia roughly organized along the lines of other, more professional hoplite soldiers. They are organized in the phalanx and are quite high quality for militia, due to the dogged Hellenic spirit and fighting tradition. They can be expected to hold a line against most light and medium infantry, though they can be cut to pieces by missile troops, as they have virtually no protection from missiles other than their shields. They are still useful against cavalry, because no horse will willingly charge a line of men armed with sharp pointy sticks! Hoplite militia, if used properly, can be an inexpensive and very valuable unit. Against heavier and more professional troops, they are simply outclassed. A wise commander will take this into account.

Historically, the poorest citizens of any polis were called up in defense of their homeland to fight as taxeis (militia units). They had been used to devastating effect in many ancient battles while forming the second battle line. They were good and courageous soldiers that fought with a degree of discipline that no average citizen before or since were able to expect without a fair degree of training. They were not cowards and did not break quickly, but were often annihilated if facing good missile troops or heavier, more professional infantry. Peltastai and other units armed with javelins were particularly devastating to the militia hoplites, due to their lack of protection on the battlefield.

http://img92.echo.cx/img92/7627/ekdromoihoplitaiscreen15gg.th.jpg (http://img92.echo.cx/my.php?image=ekdromoihoplitaiscreen15gg.jpg)
Ekdromoi Hoplitai:
Ekdromoi (Outrunner) Hoplites are a special version of the Hoplite soldier. They fight without armor and heavy equipment in order to be fast enough to catch and kill skirmishers and especially peltasts, who were the bane of the heavily armored hoplite. Their short spears carry a nasty punch for the usually lightly armed skirmisher and are able to outrange the better armored Peltast. They carry large shields in order to make up for some of this disparity, but they are not a type of soldier meant to do prolonged melee combat with standard hoplites. Their light weight leather armor is soft and layered with bronze plates and cloth in order to retard the missiles of the troops that they would likely be fighting (Hellenic ‘brigandine’ armor). Their purpose is to serve as a professional light infantry that can neutralize the effect of missiles on the heavy infantry. The combination of light armor and speed makes this infantry a great counter to pesky missile troops. They are not particularly useful against heavier infantry or even equivalent light infantry, due to their specialized nature.

Historically, these hoplites evolved almost overnight in response to large scale use of peltastai by Thebes and Athens after the reforms of Iphikrates. Their armor evolved as well over the years. They were originally armored with linen, but this was changed due to the fact that the linothorax was vulnerable to missile fire. The layered leather was developed after a period of trial and error and functions much like modern tank armor does against projectiles. It intersperses hard and soft layers to dissipate the effect of missile weapons. This armor, while exceedingly useful against missiles, is only marginally effective against most melee weapons, due to its lightness and the concentrated force of the arm behind the melee weapon. Once the initial force of a missile weapon is dissipated it falls away harmlessly, once the initial force of a melee weapon is dissipated its user pushes harder!

https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/606/thureophoroiscreen10xr.th.jpg (https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thureophoroiscreen10xr.jpg)
Thureophoroi:
Thureophoroi were a new class of Hellenic infantry that was designed to both augment the phalanx and provide a type of soldier in between the phalangite and the peltast that was able to skirmish and fight in melee. They are an extremely mobile force that can hit hard with their heavy javelins then rush in to flank pike units. They are well armed and armored for the task, having stout bronze helms, linen armor, an almond shaped theuros shield, heavy javelins, and a stout spear. They are highly versatile infantry, akin in spirit to the legionaries of Rome. They are usually pezhetairoi, middle class property owners with voting rights. As such, they are well able to devote time to training and practice. They have good morale and are highly disciplined. They were often described by Latin writers as copies of the legion. It is debatable whether they were developed with knowledge of warfare in Italy or not, they are a highly effective force of heavy infantry that is in the forefront of Hellenic military know-how.

Historically, Thureophoroi were used as harassing and flanking troops by the successor states. There seemed to be a lot of confusion as to how to utilize these new soldiers, since they were deadly in the extreme to the less mobile phalanx units. Most of the successor states used them conservatively, except for the Seleukids, who took to these new soldiers quite well. The city-states of Hellas used them even more frequently against the armies of Makedon, and were often able to hold the more powerful kingdom at bay. Still, their uses were limited in scope and not as widespread as their versatile and deadly role would have indicated. This is the fault of period commanders, however, and any more astute or innovative commander might have realized their potential in conjunction with the more static phalanx.

https://img312.imageshack.us/img312/1041/thorakitaihoplitaiscreen18wc.th.jpg (https://img312.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thorakitaihoplitaiscreen18wc.jpg)
Thorakitai Hoplitai:
Descriptions => Some hoplites were able to afford better equipment and devote more time to warfare. Much of their equipment is similar to the less wealthy hoplites, with two notable exceptions. They were often armored in mail, which gave them better protection against most weapons in relation to the linothorax. They also tended to carry a kopis, a sword that took quite a bit of time to learn to use because of its peculiar design. The kopis is shaped much like an Iberian falcata, and its primary use is to cut through armor. The armored hoplites were most often those who fought against the heavy cavalry of their adversaries, and this made them adopt an armor piercing weapon with which to dispatch their enemies once they had broken the charge. The armored hoplites are among the best infantry in the world, if a bit tactically inflexible due to the slowness of movement of an armored phalanx.

Historically, the armored hoplites were the elite of most Hellenic armies, and tended to make up only a small percentage. They evolved in response to the Makedonian use of heavy cavalry and were most often used on the right flank of a Hellenic army (opposite the traditional position of the hetairoi in the Makedonian army). They were mostly grizzled veterans or wealthy citizens who had a penchant for warfare. They were almost never used against the Romans, because the Hellenic cities mainly accepted Roman hegemony without serious struggle. The exception was Korinthos, whose armored hoplites broke the Roman left during the battle for the city but were in turn checked and then promptly cut to pieces by Romans enveloping them on three sides and by the Numidian mercenaries being employed by the Romans respectively.

https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/3668/thorakitaiscreen19vx.th.jpg (https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thorakitaiscreen19vx.jpg)
Thorakitai:
The Thorakitai represent the second evolution of the concept of the Thureophoroi, and show definite Roman influence in their implementation. They are armored in mail and carry heavy javelins instead of the lighter javelins carried by the Theurophoroi. They are more expensive and less mobile than their more lightly armored companions, but make excellent shock troops for any Hellenic army. They are best utilized on the flanks of the phalanx, to either flank the enemy while the phalanx pins them or prevent enemy flankers from attacking. They are best used in combination with the lighter Thureophoroi, who can support them with extra javelins and more importantly speed, to make sure they are not surrounded.

Historically, the Thorakitai were used much like the Theurophoroi, only less often and later in the time period. They’re expensive soldiers, and were only used in any real numbers by the Seleukids and the city-states of Hellas. They were never used to their potential, until the Romans raised legions in Hellas, when the same type of fighting became the norm rather than the exception.

https://img179.imageshack.us/img179/149/korinthioihoplitaiscreen18dd.th.jpg (https://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=korinthioihoplitaiscreen18dd.jpg)
Hoplitai Korinthioi
The polis of Korinthos produces its own variant of the classic Hellenic hoplite. These soldiers are trained to the same level as other hoplites, but have slightly differing equipment. They still use the old argive shield and have linen greaves. They can be used as any other hoplites would be, with a remembrance of the disadvantages.

Historically, the Korinthians had a professional army of citizens that were extremely dedicated to the defense of the city. They are famous for their defensive ability, holding out against the Roman invasion for many years. As Hellenic society evolved, some of the army of a polis would be composed of professionals. In peacetime, these tough men would be without anything to do, and would hire themselves out to others, such as the Persians, who spent much money having Hellenics defending their lands from invaders such as Alexandros.

http://img92.echo.cx/img92/3189/akontistaiscreen12di.th.jpg (http://img92.echo.cx/my.php?image=akontistaiscreen12di.jpg)
Akontistai:
Those unlucky enough to be extremely poor freedmen were pressed into service as psiloi, the lowest class of Hellenic infantry. The psiloi were divided into three parts: javelineers, slingers, and archers. The javelin-armed psiloi, the Akontistai, were a ragged bunch of peasants armed with javelins and small knives. Their function was simply to throw their missiles and run like hell! They were used for pre-battle skirmishing and for light missile fire. Never use Akontistai in melee except as diversionary fodder. They have their uses, as their javelins are still sharp and deadly, but they were often used only as light skirmishers or as a last resort in Hellenic armies for obvious reasons.

Historically, Akontistai did not play a particularly huge role on the battlefield. They had their uses, mainly for their ability to induce an enemy to attack prematurely. They are little more than an annoyance on the open field, but can be deadly if positioned in places where their javelins can be used for maximum effect.

https://img131.imageshack.us/img131/3940/slingersscreen19gc.th.jpg (https://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slingersscreen19gc.jpg)
Sphendonetai
The slingers are the second part of the psiloi, and are only marginally more useful than their compatriots with javelins. Their slings can prove a deadly weapon, but they are mainly used to harass and annoy enemy soldiers to force a premature or rash action. They are mostly poor peasants that use this weapon to provide a meager amount of protein in their already poor diet.

Historically, slingers were uses pretty well. They were used in similar roles to the ones described above. Alexandros employed his slingers to harass the Persian heavy cavalry until it decided to give fight at Gaugamela, which promptly cut it off from the rest of the Persian army and allowed the better armed and armored Companions to cut it to shreds.

https://img131.imageshack.us/img131/21/archersscreen17xr.th.jpg (https://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=archersscreen17xr.jpg)
Toxotai:
Toxotai are the third branch of the psiloi, the archers of Hellenic and Makedonian armies. They are generally from the upper end of the poor and are generally recruited from mountainous regions where the use of the bow is an essential skill to keep one’s flock of sheep safe from roving predators. Toxotai are well trained in a manner of speaking, that being that they are using their weapon of choice (often of necessity) from birth. They make decent archers, but are nowhere near as professional as the archers from the east and south. They generally use the short bow, which means that they are often outgunned by their counterparts from other lands. This reflects their secondary role on a Hellenic battlefield. As most archers, they will be cut to ribbons in melee, so they should be protected well from any harm.

Historically, the Hellenes did not use archers in any significant fashion. They did not have the composite bows of their neighbors, and their lands were not particularly suited to the cattle and horse farming that supplied the raw material for these bows. Therefore, archers had the effect of other psiloi, that of long range harassment. Hellenes and Makedonians had no real tradition of archers and could not recruit any but these shepherds to do this work for them, since they lacked any access to the archers of the east. Most Hellenic states relied on Skythian and most importantly Kretan archers to do this for them.

http://img168.echo.cx/img168/6664/peltastaiscreen12gp.th.jpg (http://img168.echo.cx/my.php?image=peltastaiscreen12gp.jpg)
Peltastai:
The peltast is a type of elite skirmisher that sacrifices heavy arms and armor for mobility and range. They are armored in linen and carry a medium sized ovular shield. Originally, they carried a crescent shaped ‘pelta’ that gave them their name, but this was phased out in the fourth century. Their armaments consist of several javelins and a sword. All this makes them light and mobile, but still easily able to engage in melee after their javelins have been thrown. They are a versatile unit but one must remember that their primary arms are javelins, and they are not equipped to stand toe to toe with heavier infantry. Their role is one of speed, harassment, and critical flanking maneuvers.

Historically, the Peltast was often a hoplite or pezhetairoi phalangite equipped to fight in the manner of a skirmisher. This meant that they were extremely adept melee combatants as well as being deadly with their javelins. Peltasts were used to great effect on ancient battlefields but by 270 B.C. the Thureophoroi was becoming the dominant ‘melee’ skirmisher and the Peltast was carrying more javelins and was used in a manner that was consistent with this. This was simply a matter of specialization, and it did not mean that peltasts would be any less effective if deployed correctly. Their light armament makes them extremely fast, but tends to be to their detriment in melee combat. They were mostly used in the role of supporting missile troops who charged in at the last moment, after they had spent all their javelins. The great Athenian general Iphikrates is credited with the invention of the peltast as a distinct unit, and it is he that first employed them in this manner to great effect against the heavier armored and better trained hoplites of Sparta.

https://img131.imageshack.us/img131/967/hippeisscreen10nr.th.jpg (https://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hippeisscreen10nr.jpg)
Hippeis:
Hellenic cavalry is not the most awe inspiring and powerful in the world, but they are no slouches either. Hippeis are a mix of good old fashioned Hellenic know-how with the practical needs for an effective medium cavalry force. The result is the wedding of linen armor, attic helmets, and hoplon shields to cavalry spears and the kopis, which produces a warrior with excellent equipment. Since they are mainly drawn from elite nobility, these cavalrymen have high morale and good discipline. They ride stout horses whose stock was imported from the north. They are an able, if not spectacular, medium cavalry.

Historically, Hellenic cavalry was always thought of as better than Roman cavalry, even though it was not particularly significant. The Hellenes have enough trouble keeping the equestrian minded Makedonians to the north at bay without having to worry about doing much of significant note.

https://img157.imageshack.us/img157/4545/xystophoroiscreen11nw.th.jpg (https://img157.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xystophoroiscreen11nw.jpg)
Hippeis Xystophoroi:
The Hellenic heavy cavalry follows the practical need of a heavy cavalry to counter that of the hostile Makedonian neighbor. While not quite as well trained or lethal as the Makedonian heavy cavalry, they are still a battle-winning component of any army. They are armored in a bronze cuirass, helmet, and greaves and carry the deadly xyston lance and kopis sword. They should be used as any heavy cavalry should be, as a shock force to hit and roll up enemy flanks. They are particularly well suited for the job, but still lack the élan of the hetairoi that the Successor States posses.

Historically, the Hippeis Xystophoroi were a small, elite group of noblemen that were used in much the same way as the heavy cavalry of the Makedonians. They were never large in number, but served mainly to check the movements of other heavy cavalry and to hit the flanks of enemy soldiers. They were not used to any major effect, which is testament to their utility. They performed their tasks well enough to be used as a unit, and not exemplary enough to be used in a role that might not be fitting to men of their training and stature.

A few extra action shots:

https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/4141/action17ct.th.jpg (https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=action17ct.jpg)https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/190/action28by.th.jpg (https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=action28by.jpg)https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8340/action35ym.th.jpg (https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=action35ym.jpg)

https://img290.imageshack.us/img290/4736/dividergreek27vk.gif

We also would like to present a glimpse of a special treat we have for not only the Koinon Hellenon faction, but for all the Hellenic ones: The Olympic Games. The Olympiad is held every four years and those generals and governors, from factions which may participate, who are not occupied with warfare and who possess a healthy nature, are best suited to compete. Though we will not reveal much about the games, we will give you a glimpse of some of the messages the leader of the Koinon Hellenon will receive *if* one of his generals is able to compete in the Olympiad:
https://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9862/olympiccompetitor35oz.th.jpg (https://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=olympiccompetitor35oz.jpg)

You will be alerted to the results of his participation, and *if* the character is successful, you would be notified in such a way:
https://img93.imageshack.us/img93/430/olympicwinner6tm.th.jpg (https://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=olympicwinner6tm.jpg)

But if, as most result, he is defeated:
https://img180.imageshack.us/img180/3831/olympicloser2ux.th.jpg (https://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=olympicloser2ux.jpg)
Let’s just be glad this one wasn’t a humiliating defeat.

Of course, this would take place at Olympia itself:
https://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3976/olympiascreen44xh.th.jpg (https://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=olympiascreen44xh.jpg)

Besides Olympia, there are other important locations that are more closely under the control of the Koinon Hellenon. Another famous site that we couldn't leave out of their preview is the Athenian Akropolis:
https://img301.imageshack.us/img301/2342/akropolisscreen35uy.th.jpg (https://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=akropolisscreen35uy.jpg)
And additionally, if you travel to the Akropolis, you're certain to be able to look off the north face, down onto a structure that the Hellenes can build in any of their cities (if they have the time and money and it's large enough):
https://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4238/theatron2screen26ux.th.jpg (https://img36.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theatron2screen26ux.jpg)


https://img290.imageshack.us/img290/4736/dividergreek27vk.gif

Plus, the campaign map with factions released so far:
https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7905/mapfactionsreleasedsofar4al.th.jpg (https://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapfactionsreleasedsofar4al.jpg) or, if you prefer it this way... https://img276.imageshack.us/img276/5818/mapfactionsreleasedsofar28iu.th.gif (https://img276.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapfactionsreleasedsofar28iu.gif)


---------------------------------------------------------------------
And we can’t forget the small SIG to prove your renewed allegiance to EB:
https://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7841/logogreeks1small3ir.jpg

We heartily invite our fans to use these sigs. They’re here for you, and we delight to see them be used by our great fans!


---------------------------------------------------------------------
We hope you’ve enjoyed this week’s update!

Please note that unless stated otherwise, ALL pictures shown in our previews are of works in progress. We continue to improve on all parts of EB, and we will continue to do so long after our initial release.

Since some areas where these news items are posted cannot handle wide images, we appreciate your restraint from quoting full-size images.

As always, if you have questions or comments, the best place to post them is here, where the EB team is most active:

Europa Barbarorum ORG forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70)

Europa Barbarorum TWC forum (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31)

We give special thanks to Imageshack (http://www.imageshack.us) that provides us with a simple, foolproof, and free way to show you all these pictures each week.


Have a great day!


Sincerely,

The Europa Barbarorum team.

Xanthippus of Sparta
08-08-2005, 00:43
Amazing...these are the best looking units you guys have made so far IMO...

The Olympic games is a great idea by the way...

Region
08-08-2005, 01:12
C'mon Teleklos, why must EB continue to tease us fans by censoring those parts? :P

Teleklos Archelaou
08-08-2005, 01:19
C'mon Teleklos, why must EB continue to tease us fans by censoring those parts? :PHonestly, I can't even tell you why we have to block those parts out; even that part is new and secret. Much less the stuff underneath. ~D ~D Seriously!

Chester
08-08-2005, 01:25
Great work! I love the affects of the special Greek buildings. I hope the Spartan Warrior is in this though, not over powered of course, I just like the way they look :D

Urnamma
08-08-2005, 01:29
C'mon guys. Do you think the skinner and modeler who uses the nick Spartan_Warrior would not do proper spartans? They're in the works. ~;)

Pycckuu
08-08-2005, 01:35
These Greeks are the most well made of all the Greeks i have ever seen! Congrats to the devs for having such tallanted guys on your team ~:cheers:

Idomeneas
08-08-2005, 02:06
Ω ΘΕΟΙ!!!!

GoreBag
08-08-2005, 03:09
It looks good, but I have two comments.

1) In the description about the athlete who fell on his face, the word should read "borne", not "born".

2)The Greek wonders seem a little better than the others (and the Acropolis has the bonus to public order due to law listed twice). Am I correct in this presumption?

Teleklos Archelaou
08-08-2005, 03:36
It looks good, but I have two comments.

1) In the description about the athlete who fell on his face, the word should read "borne", not "born".

2)The Greek wonders seem a little better than the others (and the Acropolis has the bonus to public order due to law listed twice). Am I correct in this presumption?Good eye. There is one blanket law bonus of 5% for all variants of this building, but the akropolis variant gets an additional 5% (which can only be obtained if the faction holding it is greek_cities). The morale boost for troops defending it only works for hellenic factions as well, but the basic happiness bonus and law bonus goes to any faction holding it I believe. There may be penalties for some factions - maybe Parthian or Aedui? - so that it might be best for them to destroy it. Some of this is already in place, but we will wait to tweak it in further testing or after the open beta is out.

saulot333
08-08-2005, 03:49
Mmmmmm...Armenia, Dacia, Thrace and Rome...four preview to go then the beta? Let's hope so

zemaniak
08-08-2005, 04:58
more like parthia, thrace/dacia , armenia and rome

eadingas
08-08-2005, 06:20
Wow, even I didn't know EB will be that good :)

Blamat
08-08-2005, 06:21
*whistles for 2 minutes straight*

Wow. Amazing work guys... almost didn't think you'd get the update out but there it is... too bad it's 2:20 am... ~;) I'll read it all tomorrow.

O_Stratigos
08-08-2005, 07:01
Great preview indeed, one of the best -so far- in my very biased opinion and oh boy Spartans still to come!! ~D
There are a few things about the spelling that I don’t quite understand though;

There is AkoNTistai and then SpheNDonetai; shouldn’t there be the same spelling for the Greek D sound?
In the word “Hellenon”, is the second E supposed to sound like the Greek I or H (heta)? In English the word is of course spelled “Hellenes” but since you are using the –ai in Hoplitai etc to denote Greek plural, you are using the letter “i” like in Thorakitai etc for the (English sound) E, and you are also using the Greek spelling for Koinon, you are obviously trying to stick to the Greek pronunciation of these words, so maybe the same rules should apply here, and for consistency instead of Hellenon you could use Hellinon.
Same thing for SphendonEtai, should’t be like in HoplItai, ThorakItai, AkontIstai etc? Also the words Sphentonitis and Sphentonistis are both correct I believe, so there might be a case for Sphentonitai > SphendoniStai like in Akontistai just for consistency again, but I’m not so sure…

If you find all these to be trivial its really fine by me, I don’t want to start another big argument ~:eek:

O_Stratigos :bow:

PS: What does "Aprakteros" mean?

Shrapnel
08-08-2005, 07:11
Wow. This looks like such a great faction, even considering all the other ones. Which are also really great factions. I especially like the Olympic idea. Will other countries be able to participate?

tzinacan
08-08-2005, 08:21
i love all you do boys
thanks teleios you must be sleepin tired and proud now
oh man, if i dont see my allweekend EB teaser on the screen somewhat of the weekend has not beeing worthy -this last was- but
~:handball:
the love and respect that i have to your work makes me comment somthing i would not like:

1 RTR 6.0 is on
2 the RTW xpansion is coming soon
:embarassed:
3 so, where aye you?

althought i foreseen how do i gonna install to combine Eb & RTR

and dont makes me hungry the next RTW expansion in front of what are u doing rigth now
-what their hollywood-alike-ignorance gonna do after incendiary pigs? molotov goths?-
~:confused:
i would like to know what r u doing now, how close you r to the open beta, please don´t be only giving us delicious -but little- bites of the big meal that all of us are hungry to

i know that you also hav a a life
:duel:
i'll play it even if you releaseit in a year
just get in touch

~:cheers:

Malrubius
08-08-2005, 08:24
Wow. This looks like such a great faction, even considering all the other ones. Which are also really great factions. I especially like the Olympic idea. Will other countries be able to participate?

Competitors can come from any of the Hellenistic factions, although it's harder for some than others, due to distance.

Bartix
08-08-2005, 09:07
The Importance of Akropolis is hard to underestimate. :balloon2:
It is not important, then? ~:confused:
Am I picking nit, or misunderestimating you guys? ~:handball: ~:handball:

Mod looks so nice!!!!! ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers:

jerby
08-08-2005, 09:13
wow, very nice touch with teh olympics! is this a pat on the back for..malrubius?
great units again. love the new fleet-model and the new strat-map-soldier(with kopis!!) great thorakitai! guessing it will funtion perfectely as heavy-assault-unit for city's.
love it!

Idomeneas
08-08-2005, 10:14
Great preview indeed, one of the best -so far- in my very biased opinion and oh boy Spartans still to come!! ~D
There are a few things about the spelling that I don’t quite understand though;

There is AkoNTistai and then SpheNDonetai; shouldn’t there be the same spelling for the Greek D sound?
In the word “Hellenon”, is the second E supposed to sound like the Greek I or H (heta)? In English the word is of course spelled “Hellenes” but since you are using the –ai in Hoplitai etc to denote Greek plural, you are using the letter “i” like in Thorakitai etc for the (English sound) E, and you are also using the Greek spelling for Koinon, you are obviously trying to stick to the Greek pronunciation of these words, so maybe the same rules should apply here, and for consistency instead of Hellenon you could use Hellinon.
Same thing for SphendonEtai, should’t be like in HoplItai, ThorakItai, AkontIstai etc? Also the words Sphentonitis and Sphentonistis are both correct I believe, so there might be a case for Sphentonitai > SphendoniStai like in Akontistai just for consistency again, but I’m not so sure…

If you find all these to be trivial its really fine by me, I don’t want to start another big argument ~:eek:

O_Stratigos :bow:

PS: What does "Aprakteros" mean?

Well if we get that picky it should be Sfenthonitai since the original ancient word is σφενδονηται with ''δ''. Now why foreigners pronounce ''Thelta' (like the word the) ''Delta'' is something i never understood. I think we propably cannot avoid things like that here and there. The thing you can do is to alter the names after yourself. In that way you will have what you want and plus you will be saved from nervous breakdown when people will debate if that was the actual pronounciation of this worf of your language, that you speak modern greek and you dont know or bring up different ''dialects''. So why have a stroke without reason? ~:) Do it yourself

The_Mark
08-08-2005, 11:03
This is one of the reason why I like phonetic languages, like Finnish :bow:

Moros
08-08-2005, 12:02
:jawdrop: omg! :jawdrop:
...
...
:jawdrop: (I just love this smiley)

Keyser
08-08-2005, 12:28
This is one of the reason why I like phonetic languages, like Finnish :bow:

Hum, i am sure if you tried to write finnish in greek or cyrilic script, even more if foreigners tried to do that, you would come with problems like those, phonetic language or not.
Then most languages are "phonetical" in their own alphabet (for instance english and finnish use latin script but i am sure there is some differences in pronunciation and some letters may even differ).
Lastly for greek there is this old discussion about how modern greek is similar to ancient greek concerning pronciation... Languages change, accents change from place to place and with time. So knowing how ancient greek was really pronounced is tricky and open to interpretation.

cunctator
08-08-2005, 12:37
Nice to see a Suggested Reading list.

Divinus Arma
08-08-2005, 14:04
Outstanding!

I'll remind you that EB first inspired me to join the Org. And you gents do not dissapoint.

Couple of questions:

(1) In most of the previews, have many units been left out for the player to see later? (Spartan being the prime example here).

(2) The olympics was an incredible addition! Are there several results for winning/losing? I ask because I fear generations of Olympic failure i n my ranks, with associated negtaive traits. And I assume the winner gets a huge boost of influence?

EDIT: (3) Are you guys adding music? I know I posted this in three other spots, but I've yet to get an answer.

Are you folks still working on a website?
- I have a connection with a company that does search engine optimization (I'm married to the CEO's daughter). It is normally kind of expensive, but I will see what strings I can pull. Here is the company:http://www.optimalconnections.com/SEO_Services.php

jerby
08-08-2005, 15:09
yeah. i'm pretty curious how the olympics will be handeld (in game), and hwo you did it

Teleklos Archelaou
08-08-2005, 15:55
The transliteration is from ***ANCIENT*** Greek to modern English. This is not that difficult. These are not "trivial" or "nitpicking" problems, which implies that we aren't paying full attention or don't care about the details, when the extreme opposite is the case. While we might make mistakes occasionally, there is no skipping over lightly the transliterations.

sigma-phi-epsilon-nu-delta-omicron-nu-eta-tau-alpha-iota transliterates very clearly into:
s-ph-e-n-d-o-n-e-t-a-i

Classical Greek pronounces "phi" as an aspirated "p" ("top", where the "p" actually has a very very slight "uh" right after it), not as an "f". We will never have "Sfendonetai". And classical Greek has clear differentiation between a delta and a tau, which is very close to the differentiation between a "d" and a "t" in modern English.

Sphendonetai has a "nu-delta", where Akontistai has a "nu-tau". We will be keeping those as a "nd" and an "nt" respectively therefore. Foreigners mispronounce the *modern* Greek, Idomeneas, in the situation you point out. I totally agree with you there. But the ancient Greek is not the same.

Ianofsmeg16
08-08-2005, 17:33
did anybody see the navy in the Thaumaton Theatron pic? four little boats with a banner sticking outa the top, is this a new thing or a mistake?

SaFe
08-08-2005, 17:38
Outstanding!

I'll remind you that EB first inspired me to join the Org. And you gents do not dissapoint.

Couple of questions:

(1) In most of the previews, have many units been left out for the player to see later? (Spartan being the prime example here).

(2) The olympics was an incredible addition! Are there several results for winning/losing? I ask because I fear generations of Olympic failure i n my ranks, with associated negtaive traits. And I assume the winner gets a huge boost of influence?

EDIT: (3) Are you guys adding music? I know I posted this in three other spots, but I've yet to get an answer.

Are you folks still working on a website?
- I have a connection with a company that does search engine optimization (I'm married to the CEO's daughter). It is normally kind of expensive, but I will see what strings I can pull. Here is the company:http://www.optimalconnections.com/SEO_Services.php

Can definately answer your first question with a healthy YES:-) And also the work on the website is going on.

Mongoose
08-08-2005, 17:38
Very nice .......now get back to work on the next preview :whip:


j/k

Abokasee
08-08-2005, 17:47
very good units....but nothing compared to the strength of bartix stickmen! ~D

TheTank
08-08-2005, 18:28
Very very nice EB!, Koinon Hellenon is my favorite Hellenic faction from now on.
I am very eager to play them to kick some Macedonian butt ~:)

Teleklos Archelaou
08-08-2005, 18:38
Very very nice EB!, Koinon Hellenon is my favorite Hellenic faction from now on.
I am very eager to play them to kick some Macedonian butt ~:)Yeah, the key will be trying to keep from losing Athens in the first few turns (and that was the number one goal of the Macedonians too--to seize it--after 272 was over and they didn't have to worry about that pesky Pyrrhus). You can either bring Areus back to help defend Sparta and Athens (and both are likely to be the object of Mak-Attaks), or you can use him to try and consolidate Crete. It's a lot of tough choices. Unfortunately the AI often leaves Euboia with only a few troops, pulling them out to try and take Thermon or other places. So if you can make it a few years in, you can take advantage of the stupid AI decisions (sometimes, not always) and try to grab Chalkis too. Korinth is much more dangerous, and is best left alone till you get some breathing room. Grabbing Halikarnassos is tough, but sometimes an opportunity will open up, especially if someone else tries and fails to take it.

Chester
08-08-2005, 19:53
What about Baktria? Wasn't that region Hellenized?

Teleklos Archelaou
08-08-2005, 20:04
It's a three thousand mile trek, and we don't have any proof that Baktrians did compete, but yes, it was Hellenized, and there will probably be a very slight chance that a young and energetic Baktrian general would make a journey to Greece, and *if* he was there he might compete. Very unlikely, but a chance nonetheless. BTW, the text messages are all tailored to these decreased probabilities and faction specific obstacles to competing and winning in the games too. :sunny:

Spendios
08-08-2005, 20:30
Very good job I especially like the Olympic games traits !

Idomeneas
08-08-2005, 21:37
The transliteration is from ***ANCIENT*** Greek to modern English. This is not that difficult. These are not "trivial" or "nitpicking" problems, which implies that we aren't paying full attention or don't care about the details, when the extreme opposite is the case. While we might make mistakes occasionally, there is no skipping over lightly the transliterations.

sigma-phi-epsilon-nu-delta-omicron-nu-eta-tau-alpha-iota transliterates very clearly into:
s-ph-e-n-d-o-n-e-t-a-i

Classical Greek pronounces "phi" as an aspirated "p" ("top", where the "p" actually has a very very slight "uh" right after it), not as an "f". We will never have "Sfendonetai". And classical Greek has clear differentiation between a delta and a tau, which is very close to the differentiation between a "d" and a "t" in modern English.

Sphendonetai has a "nu-delta", where Akontistai has a "nu-tau". We will be keeping those as a "nd" and an "nt" respectively therefore. Foreigners mispronounce the *modern* Greek, Idomeneas, in the situation you point out. I totally agree with you there. But the ancient Greek is not the same.

The only thing i disagree Τηλεκλε is the ''Δ'' representation with ''D''. It should be ''TH'' like the words ''this'' ''the'' or at least those come in my mind as more similar to the sound. In greek we dont have in the original indigenous words the sound ''D''. Thats why there is not an assigned letter for it. We reproduce it with ''NT''. You can argue that you are talking about ancient greek BUT the fact is that words may changed through time but not the pronounciation of συμφωνα. Υou propably gonna say ''and how you can proove that''. In case the opinion of numerous greek archaeologists and philologists doesnt count we can examine the eclesiastic language. In Greece the psalms are still in the original ancient language of the evangels. That may not be as old as we want to proove the case here but provides a freeze in time close enough to after hellenistic era so that no great alterations on language are justified. Plus in that i can provide the pontic Greek dialect. I dont know if you ever heard but their dialect is very very close to ancient greek. One more thing. The modern greek as we speak now used to be common people's language. The state's language and educated ones till late 70's was the so called καθαρευουσα. You know all the κλισεις and spirits and a very large amount of pure ancient words. It stopped being used in schools and official documents in 1982. Anyway my point is that certain words can be written differently but individual συμφωνα are still pronounced the same.
As example we can use ancient attic Θαλαττα and modern Θαλασσα

I know sadly i cannot turn in time and have a chat with Leonidas to see how he pronounces Δ but i think so do you ~:) . In any case i would be very interested to see the elements that lead you (and other people offcourse) to a safe conclusion about the pronounciation of ancient greek. If you think that we will bore everybody here with stuff they dont care we can do it on another thread ~:cheers:

Birka Viking
08-08-2005, 22:25
Wow very great preview EB........ ~:cheers:

Es Arkajae
08-09-2005, 06:49
Wait a sec?, is there going to be a Spartan unit and it just hasn't been shown in this preview?

Granted Sparta was on its last legs by the stage this game starts, but they weren't yet finished, a great leader could turn things around. One would like the opportunity for them to become great again~;)

Dux Corvanus
08-09-2005, 07:26
Yes, Sparta still existed. But I don't understand why people admire Spartans so. Ok, Leonidas's quest is an incredible lesson in bravery. But, don't forget they were some kind of nazis of the ancient world.

Shrapnel
08-09-2005, 07:40
Competitors can come from any of the Hellenistic factions, although it's harder for some than others, due to distance.

Great,thanks. ~:)

Es Arkajae
08-09-2005, 08:49
Yes, Sparta still existed. But I don't understand why people admire Spartans so. Ok, Leonidas's quest is an incredible lesson in bravery. But, don't forget they were some kind of nazis of the ancient world.

I'm aware Sparta still existed as is blatantly obvious by my post.

As for comparisons with nazis?, wake up to yourself mate.`;)

Has anyone got an answer though?, will Spartans be in EB?

Chester
08-09-2005, 09:15
Read the posts, Spartans and Sparta will be in the game. They probably won't be titans among men like they were in Vanilla and other MOD's. I think the Spartan legacy of greatness died down by the opening date for EB.

jerby
08-09-2005, 09:32
yeah, it died against the Thebans(guess)..dunno wich battle.

but indeed, spartans also did things you shouldn't be to proud of. they pioneerd citizinship, but it was exclusive donw to the paranoid.

Forgus
08-09-2005, 09:55
Sure thing. As far as I'm concerned weekly previews only give you a rough idea of the units available per fraction, say 50%. And of course secretive as they are they reserve the the cream for the release....
Plus if you read back you can read that they are in production.
Still I have reason to suspect that there would be Athenian, Spartite or even perhaps Thebaian units...

So stay tuned

Dux Corvanus
08-09-2005, 10:17
yeah, it died against the Thessalians..dunno wich battle.

but indeed, spartans also did things you shouldn't be to proud of. they pioneerd citizinship, but it was exclusive donw to the paranoid.

Two battles -among many- marked the decadence of Sparta: Leuctra (279BC) against the Theban League, and Sellacia (222BC) against Tegea and Antigonos III. The city fell in the Roman orbit in the 2nd century BC.

Spartan society was based on the dominion of a minority -a military aristocracy- over a huge enslaved population, thru repression and terror. To achieve this goal, they sacrificed culture, art, phylosophy, and even their own comfort, to become an austere group of paranoid fanatics whose only aim was perpetuate that status quo by the employment of sheer force and coaction.

So tell me, what's so admirable in the Orwellian nightmare that Likurgan state was. A bunch of guys that sacrifice their happiness and every good thing in life so they become tough enough to reduce a whole nation to slavery thru terror.

jerby
08-09-2005, 10:21
well, the devotion to military training is admirable. the Spartan way of life depended on war..they were Soldiers, and that's 'admirable'.
the sad part is that, threw their devotion and skill, they surpressed everything they 'controlled'.

still, Thermopylae is magnificent...ordered gates of Fire, really curious

O_Stratigos
08-09-2005, 10:52
These are not "trivial" or "nitpicking" problems, which implies that we aren't paying full attention or don't care about the details, when the extreme opposite is the case.
There was no such thing implied by me, I am fully aware of the depth and detail that the EB team is dedicated to.


We will never have "Sfendonetai".
I am not aware of anyone suggesting the use of "f" instead off "ph"


Sphendonetai has a "nu-delta", where Akontistai has a "nu-tau".
My mistake, I stand corrected, my apologies. :embarassed:


The transliteration is from ***ANCIENT*** Greek to modern English. This is not that difficult.

I don’t know about other languages but “transliteration” from ancient Greek to modern English, is IMHO almost impossible and the best one can hope for is a meaningful translation and an approximate spelling. Transliteration might work quite well for an academic but for the rest is simply confusing.
The speakers of ancient Greek/historians in the EB team will know much better than I all that I am about to say, but for the sake of the average English-non-Greek speaker please let me explain.

In the word "sphendonetai" the second "e" is supposed to be pronounced as an "i" like in the word "in" and the same applies for the word "akontistai", the "i" has –almost- the same sound. I say "almost" because in Greek the I is short whereas the H is slightly longer. It is my understanding that when a Greek "H" (eta) is encountered is spelled by the EB team with an "e" and when there is an "I" (iota) is spelled with an "i". The question here is, how does the average English speaking person without any knowledge of Greek supposed to differentiate and pronounced them correctly?

In "hoplitai" and "Hellenon" the pronunciation problem is even worse and the fact that these two words do not appear in a dictionary -so one might look them up- and are "tailor made" for the mod, does not help either.
The words "hoplite"- "hoplites" are the English translation of the Greek oplitis (οπλιτης) – oplitai (οπλιται) and in English are pronounced "hopl-eye-te" and "hopl-eye-tes".
When the letters –ai are used in the end of "hoplit-es" to denote Greek plural, now the "i" is supposed to be pronounced like the "i" in the word "in"– for convenience lets use the sound of -ea of the word "plea"- so is actually pronounced "hopl-ea-tai" and the Greek plural –ai should sound like the first "e" of the word "ever". Again how is the average person supposed to know this?

The words Hellene- Hellenes are translations of the Greek Hellene-Hell-ea-ne (Ελλην) and Hellenes-Hell-ea-nes (Ελληνες), but where does the word "Hellenon" come from?
Please let me TRY and explain as simply as I can by using these examples; "the Hellenes-Hell-ea-nes (Ελληνες) live in Hellas, Hellas is the country of the Hellenon-Hell-ea-non" (Ελληνων), or " the Hellenes-Hell-ea-nes are covered with body hair, the bodies of the Hellenon-Hell-ea-non are hairy", so -very broadly speaking- if you speak "OF them" in plural it ends with –on. So again the English word "Hellenes" is used adding the Greek plural ending of –on (ων), and we have the word "Hellenon" with the inherent problem of the pronunciation of the letters –e because the average person will pronounce both –e’s like in the word "ever" which is of course wrong since the second –e must be pronounced like –ea of the word "plea".

As you can see it is not as easy as one might think and I believe that some kind of explanation should have been given by the EB team about the origins and pronunciation of some of the names-words.
Well, IMHO most of the above are quiet trivial because although words-names are "tailor made", they are actually working very well for the purpose of the mod, are very cleverly constructed and gives one the sense of actually speaking in ancient Greek just by reading the faction and unit names and I for one really like them. ~:cool:

What might need to be corrected is, that in the description of "Toxotai" and "Xystophoroi" the x is used as an English x, whereas in the description of "Taxeis Hoplitai" is used as the Greek sound of h as in the word "here". Just let me add that the letters –oi in "Xystiphoroi" and in "Koinon" are also pronounced –ea!! Yeah… we Greeks are crazy.. ~D

As I mentioned in my previous post maybe for the sake of simplicity and probably consistency as well, the Greek letter H (eta) -when encountered- should be substituted with i or even with ea, so everyone can pronounce the words correctly and without any difficulty.

Finally, I would really appreciate if someone would explain what "Aprakteros" means. Thank you.

O_Stratigos :bow:

shifty157
08-09-2005, 15:06
https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/190/action28by.th.jpg


Hes using his spear with both hands.

Looks awesome.

Es Arkajae
08-09-2005, 15:30
Oh for goodness Dux, who gives a rats arse about what the Spartans did back then?

They could have gone around randomly stealing women, raping cattle and drinking milk straight from the carton for all I care.

What matters is that they were damned cool and they still weren't all the way dead in the period which this game covers. I personally would like to see a Spartan unit hence why I'm asking those here hopefully in the know~:)

Teleklos Archelaou
08-09-2005, 16:24
In the word "sphendonetai" the second "e" is supposed to be pronounced as an "i" like in the word "in" and the same applies for the word "akontistai", the "i" has –almost- the same sound. I say "almost" because in Greek the I is short whereas the H is slightly longer. It is my understanding that when a Greek "H" (eta) is encountered is spelled by the EB team with an "e" and when there is an "I" (iota) is spelled with an "i". The question here is, how does the average English speaking person without any knowledge of Greek supposed to differentiate and pronounced them correctly? The transliteration process we have adopted is (with absolutely no doubt in my mind) the most accurate one (for transliterating into modern English) the academic community in the U.S. and all of Europe (except many people in Greece) can provide. While modern Greeks may insist that they alone know what ancient Greek sounded like, the rest of the world has a different view and though I am sorry that we might disagree, we are following that one.


In "hoplitai" and "Hellenon" the pronunciation problem is even worse and the fact that these two words do not appear in a dictionary -so one might look them up- and are "tailor made" for the mod, does not help either.
The words "hoplite"- "hoplites" are the English translation of the Greek oplitis (οπλιτης) – oplitai (οπλιται) and in English are pronounced "hopl-eye-te" and "hopl-eye-tes".
When the letters –ai are used in the end of "hoplit-es" to denote Greek plural, now the "i" is supposed to be pronounced like the "i" in the word "in"– for convenience lets use the sound of -ea of the word "plea"- so is actually pronounced "hopl-ea-tai" and the Greek plural –ai should sound like the first "e" of the word "ever". Again how is the average person supposed to know this? Simply and politely put, the transliteration of οπλιται from ancient Greek to English is accepted by the rest of the world (outside of Modern Greeks) as "Hoplitai".


but where does the word "Hellenon" come from? Genitive plural of Hellenes: "of the Greeks" - Eta's are transliterated from ancient Greek to modern English with a simple "e" unfortunately as the English "e" can represent both the sound of the ancient Greek epsilon and the ancient Greek eta. There is no "ea" sound in the pronunciation of Ελληνων.


As you can see it is not as easy as one might think and I believe that some kind of explanation should have been given by the EB team about the origins and pronunciation of some of the names-words.Over and over and over again I and other EB team members have detailed all of this. The only people who have ever raised a single peep about it are modern Greeks. While I hope that everyone can enjoy the mod, and the Greek voice mod too, I simply will not be able to be convinced that some, but not all, scholars and laymen in Greece are the only ones who should have the final say in all matters pertaining to their ancestors. We probably wouldn't have a problem here if we just put the ancient Greek characters themselves up there instead of the engish transliterations, but unfortunately we have made the decision a long time ago to force all other languages to be transliterated into English instead of trying to use other alphabets (even when we could, like with Greek).

If anyone sees any inconsistencies in the transliterations or any errors that do not pertain to the insistence by some (and it is clearly a well-intentioned and patriotic insistence, but one that I and the other members of the mod and the academic community at large also believe is wrong) that ancient and modern greek has not changed over two and a half millenia, please notify us of those problems and we will be *more* than happy to correct or to try and correct them. I don't mean to sound harsh, but as I've said we've gone over this numerous times here and at the TWC.net site and there are two clear parties over and over again and it's over the same transliteration issues and I don't know what else to say but that we are sorry that some people don't see eye to eye with us on this decision, but that we hope you can still enjoy the mod -- and I especially hope that you will enjoy the Greek units, naming of cities and peoples, unique sites, and other things that we can't talk about yet but that are still our fervent attempts to portray the ancient Hellenes as accurately as we can in a mod like this. :balloon2:

Teleklos Archelaou
08-09-2005, 16:30
Oh for goodness Dux, who gives a rats arse about what the Spartans did back then?

They could have gone around randomly stealing women, raping cattle and drinking milk straight from the carton for all I care.

What matters is that they were damned cool and they still weren't all the way dead in the period which this game covers. I personally would like to see a Spartan unit hence why I'm asking those here hopefully in the know~:)I care!!! I have to sorta - my work every day when I go into the office is to deal with the ancient Spartans. They are very complex, and the reasons why they did what they did are very interesting, *and* you might be interested in knowing that they thought their system evolved in a different way than we today think that it evolved. Politicians can cause the populace to think they are doing things for reasons that are quite different than the real ones. ~D ~D

For the question about what was good about the Spartans... Well, women had a lot more freedom to act than they did in other Greek societies, but then there wasn't really a family structure anything at all like existed in other cities. And they were thought to be a lot more beautiful too than other Greek women, partly because they exercised a lot too.

Idomeneas
08-09-2005, 18:33
The transliteration process we have adopted is (with absolutely no doubt in my mind) the most accurate one (for transliterating into modern English) the academic community in the U.S. and all of Europe (except many people in Greece) can provide. While modern Greeks may insist that they alone know what ancient Greek sounded like, the rest of the world has a different view and though I am sorry that we might disagree, we are following that one.

Simply and politely put, the transliteration of οπλιται from ancient Greek to English is accepted by the rest of the world (outside of Modern Greeks) as "Hoplitai".

Genitive plural of Hellenes: "of the Greeks" - Eta's are transliterated from ancient Greek to modern English with a simple "e" unfortunately as the English "e" can represent both the sound of the ancient Greek epsilon and the ancient Greek eta. There is no "ea" sound in the pronunciation of Ελληνων.

Over and over and over again I and other EB team members have detailed all of this. The only people who have ever raised a single peep about it are modern Greeks. While I hope that everyone can enjoy the mod, and the Greek voice mod too, I simply will not be able to be convinced that some, but not all, scholars and laymen in Greece are the only ones who should have the final say in all matters pertaining to their ancestors. We probably wouldn't have a problem here if we just put the ancient Greek characters themselves up there instead of the engish transliterations, but unfortunately we have made the decision a long time ago to force all other languages to be transliterated into English instead of trying to use other alphabets (even when we could, like with Greek).

If anyone sees any inconsistencies in the transliterations or any errors that do not pertain to the insistence by some (and it is clearly a well-intentioned and patriotic insistence, but one that I and the other members of the mod and the academic community at large also believe is wrong) that ancient and modern greek has not changed over two and a half millenia, please notify us of those problems and we will be *more* than happy to correct or to try and correct them. I don't mean to sound harsh, but as I've said we've gone over this numerous times here and at the TWC.net site and there are two clear parties over and over again and it's over the same transliteration issues and I don't know what else to say but that we are sorry that some people don't see eye to eye with us on this decision, but that we hope you can still enjoy the mod -- and I especially hope that you will enjoy the Greek units, naming of cities and peoples, unique sites, and other things that we can't talk about yet but that are still our fervent attempts to portray the ancient Hellenes as accurately as we can in a mod like this. :balloon2:

The only people who have ever raised a single peep about it are the actual users of that language. Who else was supposed to do it, eskimos?

Anyway as i said before i stopped giving attention in small issues like this cause i can correct them myself. The only reason i discuss it is cause it seems crazy to me that the worldwide schollar community decided to have its own way with even the most basic pronounciation rules denouncing the greek and actual most related community. In previous post I gave you some fragments of arguements (eclesiastic language, pontic dialect) that provide a freeze in time. Offcourse te language didnt remained the same in all these thousands of years BUT it is not as unrelated as you present it. I dont know if you had the chance to visit greece. If you had surely you couldnt expect us to talk like Socrates BUT if you speak with an educated person or scholar who actually USES the range of greek vocabulary you will recognise a tremendous amount of ancient words and not just classical but homeric. Yes some words are not in use in their original form but many times they survive as composites. For example we dont use the homeric αυδή for voice, we say φωνή but a way to say speachless is άναυδος. Its not just patriotic stuberness its the way that things propably are. I say propably cause i dont have a timemachine to provide an actual recording and end this, but the safest assumtion is the one i make (and greek archaeologists). As i said before i would be greatly interested if you could provide me the actual facts and elements that lead non greek schoolars decide so solidly on pronounciation of ancient... greek and put on the side the actual speakers of the language (scholars and educated people offcourse not just any guy).

No offence but as much arrogant i would sound if i was saying that only greek scholars know their subject (ancient greek) that much arrogant you are sounding when you basically say ''they can argue all they want we decided about their language''

I dont know maybe you have a tape with Plato on ~;)

its a big subject, i dont question your studies on the subject. I dont know how extend is your physical contact with greece (i mean not just through studies and books) but what can i say is that greek language in its modern form (im not talking about street language or slung) its not so distant as you present it. Inside the ancient form still lives

Cronos Impera
08-09-2005, 18:43
:medievalcheers: :rtwno: Will there be spartan hoplites in EB? Sparta was easily conquered by the Roman Republic! Too easy, in fact. The center of Greek resistance became Corinth. After the Spartan Hegemony came the Macedonian one. The city of Corinth fiercely resisted roman opresion and as a result was burnt to the ground.
Sparta lost half of its male population by the time romans came into action. The helot slaves even managed to free themselves. After a few unsuccessful reforms Sparta fell to ruins. Is there anz reason for keeping spartan fossils for competitive troops. I think not.
Sparta could barely keep itself alive, let alone wage offensive war on foreign soil!:medievalcheers:
Great work, by the way.

Big_John
08-09-2005, 18:46
seriously why not just have a stickied "greek language debate" thread? maybe it's a little late now, but you know this will come up again and again once the beta is released..

jerby
08-09-2005, 18:47
well. around 280-260 Sparta attemted a reform..and since RTW is about altering history/reliving it players should have the choice to 'reform' Sparta and get new recruits..maybe

khelvan
08-09-2005, 23:46
Forum members are free to make such a thread. From my experience, any further EB-led discussion of this will be pointless.

Big_John
08-09-2005, 23:53
well, i could be wrong, but i imagine once the beta is released, having something like a "greek language FAQ" thread would keep the same old discussion out of other threads..

it probably won't be a big deal anymore though.

Wishazu
08-10-2005, 01:27
Easily the best preview yet. good job :balloon2:

O_Stratigos
08-10-2005, 07:22
The transliteration process we have adopted is (with absolutely no doubt in my mind) the most accurate one (for transliterating into modern English) the academic community in the U.S. and all of Europe (except many people in Greece) can provide. While modern Greeks may insist that they alone know what ancient Greek sounded like, the rest of the world has a different view and though I am sorry that we might disagree, we are following that one.
"In a more specialised sense, a transcription is (a system of) writing the sounds of a word in one language using the script of another language. Any reader of the latter language should be able to pronounce the transcribed word (almost) correctly."
"In general, transcriptions are used to write for the general public, as in newspapers or a general-purpose encyclopedia. Transliterations tend to be used by linguistic researchers and learners of a language who have not yet mastered the language's writing system." Wikipedia

No comment. :book:


While modern Greeks may insist that they alone know what ancient Greek sounded like, the rest of the world has a different view and though I am sorry that we might disagree, we are following that one.
Aye, aye sir!! :knight: But this is quite unfair, I only have very few posts here so you or anyone else can look and see that my attitude does not suggest anything of the above or even what YOU perceive to be a “typical modern” Greek. Further more, I have never said anything that even implies that my knowledge of Ancient Greek is better than yours, because I know that it is not.


Simply and politely put, the transliteration of οπλιται from ancient Greek to English is accepted by the rest of the world (outside of Modern Greeks) as "Hoplitai".
Thank you for "simply and politely" but would you care to explain who, what or where exactly "the rest of the world" is? Can you provide us with any sources-dictionaries that explain "Hoplitai" or "Hellenon"?


Genitive plural of Hellenes: "of the Greeks" - Eta's are transliterated from ancient Greek to modern English with a simple "e" unfortunately as the English "e" can represent both the sound of the ancient Greek epsilon and the ancient Greek eta.
No wonder then about the expression "its all Greek to me".. Like I said before, how is one to know when and where-what is which?

There is no "ea" sound in the pronunciation of Ελληνων.
You should know better than that.. the sound ea or even ee from the word “flee”, is much closer to the Greek H eta than a simple e.
Come to think of it maybe you don’t exactly "know better" ; please allow me to explain what I mean.
If one listens to a Greek speaking correctly, one can actually distinguish the sound difference between I and H between E and AI and of course between O and Omega. But in order for one to be able to hear the difference one must be born or raised in Greece, and I am almost certain that the same applies to other languages as well. Speaking Greek with an American accent -no offence- I'm not sure there is a difference between iota and eta.
A Greek speaking English language born-raised, will say Hellenes sounding like Helines-s, quite quicly and softly, whereas a Greek will sound more like E-lllliiine-es, see the diference? Even Australian born Greeks that speak "fluent" Greek but where English educated, their vowels sound "flat" and their consonants are very “crisp” if you know what I mean..
But I digress.. the point I’m trying to make is this; since "modern Greeks" pronounce these letters differently, why do you think the people that "invented" them originaly did so, other than because they also pronounce them differently or else why have them? And since we can’t "have a chat with Leonidas" like Idomeneas said, what better source could there possibly be than a living language that "might or might not" have changed "much-not so much" through the millennia, as to what these letters sounded like? I know that is nobody’s fault, today’s academics use "convention" established earlier by others, but contemporary’s should IMO have the guts to stand up and say "stop this nonsense of sticking an 'h' in front of all these words, there is no reason for it" and other silly things like using one letter from the English language to describe two totally different letters of another language; is almost like finding an ancient skull with a partially healed round hole on it and cry "brain surgery!!".. just as baseless and just as ludicrous.




Over and over and over again I and other EB team members have detailed all of this. The only people who have ever raised a single peep about it are modern Greeks. While I hope that everyone can enjoy the mod, and the Greek voice mod too, I simply will not be able to be convinced that some, but not all, scholars and laymen in Greece are the only ones who should have the final say in all matters pertaining to their ancestors.
My dear, dear Teleclos Archelaou you almost sound like a dog that won’t let go of his bone, and by know it almost sounds like an excuse as well. ~;) Are you actually saying that no explanation is needed about the correct pronunciation of words like "Hoplitai" and "Hellenon", or do you assume that everybody "knows" how to pronounce them? There is not even a suggestion that you might not care whether people do or don’t, because in all your postings you try and explain as best as you can questions asked by EB fans, and been very informative about what and how you do things. Here however, not only you refuse to contemplate whether there is a need or not for explaining how some of the words are pronounced –I believe I demonstrated in my previous post how complicated it can be- but more importantly; instead of answering directly to the quote, you make snide remarks about Greeks and the Modern Greeks over and over again. Well I am really sorry if you’ve been previously harassed by Greeks, "know-alls" or wharever, but I wish that you would stop trying to take it out on me.
The point is I don’t think that more than 1% of the EB fans know how to pronounce correctly any of the Greek words-names used here, like I have no clue as to how to pronounce words-names used in Shwaboz(sp?) until some guidance is given. How "educational" is it if people in a conversation pronounce "Hellenon" just the way it looks and make fools of themselves?


If anyone sees any inconsistencies in the transliterations or any errors that do not pertain to the insistence by some (and it is clearly a well-intentioned and patriotic insistence, but one that I and the other members of the mod and the academic community at large also believe is wrong) that ancient and modern greek has not changed over two and a half millenia, please notify us of those problems and we will be *more* than happy to correct or to try and correct them.
Wow!! Teleklos… you do have a sense of humor after all!! ~D Good on ya mate!! :thumbsup: ~:cheers:

Anyway, it is my firm believe that if EB fulfils its potential it might even be used in schools in the more advanced (rich..) countries, and that explanations of pronunciations of all the languages used in the mod are quite essential, after all EB is made for everyone and is not intended to be played and understood just in Academic circles.

O_Stratigos :bow:

PS: This is the third time I ask, could you please explain what “Aprakteros” means?

khelvan
08-10-2005, 08:04
WikipediaNo comment. :book:


But this is quite unfair, I only have very few posts here so you or anyone else can look and see that my attitude does not suggest anything of the above or even what YOU perceive to be a “typical modern” Greek.He did not call you a "typical modern" Greek, he made a general comment that stands, and was not personal. The discussions around this topic generally lead back to the same argument (my perception is that this is due to nationalistic feelings, but what do I know?). If you are in this group, then it is applicable to you. If you are not, you can thank a general group of "modern Greeks" who have, on multiple occasions, made the same argument over and over. EB has no desire to discuss the subject any longer because of this, regardless of your intentions, or the intentions of any individual.


Are you actually saying that no explanation is needed about the correct pronunciation of words like "Hoplitai" and "Hellenon", or do you assume that everybody "knows" how to pronounce them?We're using accepted academic standards of pronunciation; we have explained them in detail in the past, there is no reason to explain them again and again and again. The voice mod, when complete, will provide the actual pronunciation. If you disagree with the transliteration, you are free to adjust it.


There is not even a suggestion that you might not care whether people do or don’t, because in all your postings you try and explain as best as you can questions asked by EB fans, and been very informative about what and how you do things.EB members are patient in all things, but sometimes our patience is pushed. Our patience has been pushed regarding our Greek transliteration - don't take it personally, it is just a subject that we're no longer interested in discussing. Our manual will have a pronunciation guide for everyone to follow.


PS: This is the third time I ask, could you please explain what “Aprakteros” means?I don't speak any form of Greek, but I believe it is a form of Apraktos (if my spelling is bad, I apologize), meaning something like "very unsuccessful."

Biffy
08-10-2005, 11:31
Looks fantastic, I can't wait until this mod comes out.

Are you going to be sprucing up the settlement 'close-up' real-time view? I think it would be great if you made it much more detailed, as opposed to having random people walking and running around. You could have units of garrison marching around inside the settlement on patrols, you could have sentries on the walls, more civilian models doing more things like gathered around markets and sitting in theatres. You could also have trade traffic moving into and out of settlements. Would all of this be possible to do? If so I think it would be really great.

QwertyMIDX
08-10-2005, 16:33
"In a more specialised sense, a transcription is (a system of) writing the sounds of a word in one language using the script of another language. Any reader of the latter language should be able to pronounce the transcribed word (almost) correctly."
"In general, transcriptions are used to write for the general public, as in newspapers or a general-purpose encyclopedia. Transliterations tend to be used by linguistic researchers and learners of a language who have not yet mastered the language's writing system." Wikipedia


Don't be silly, we have to transliterate not because our Greek linguists don't know Greek, but because we are making EB (at least for the moment) for an English speaking audience and using a game engine that (at least for most of our memebers and fans) uses the English alphabet.

Chester
08-10-2005, 16:37
O Strategos, What are you going on about? Pronounciation of two words?

O_Stratigos
08-11-2005, 10:43
Don't be silly, we have to transliterate not because our Greek linguists don't know Greek, but because we are making EB (at least for the moment) for an English speaking audience and using a game engine that (at least for most of our memebers and fans) uses the English alphabet.
I can’t believe that you actually thought that I posted this quote implying that they don’t know the language!! That would have been really silly of me indeed… the reason for the quote is "transcription" maybe a better way to go for ease of pronunciation than using "transliteration". It says that one "should be able to pronounce the transcribed words 'almost' correctly" and since I am no linguist to know if that’s true or not, I said: No comment. At worst I was expecting a dressing down as to why "transliteration" is far superior to "transcription" and-or that I had no idea of what I was talking about, which wouldn't have been far from the truth!

BTW did you read my whole post or did you just miss this?

Further more, I have never said anything that even implies that my knowledge of Ancient Greek is better than yours, because I know that it is not.
Why do people sometimes see or assume the worst in everything, is something that I will never understand.

Now please let me say this; at my age, my "philosophy" can be summed up in two things: show respect for everybody until they show that they don’t deserve it (don’t even think that applies here), and that people are divided in to two categories: good people and the rest. Personally I don’t give a ding-dong about nationalities, color or creed and when I post something I mean what I say and I say what I mean without implications, hidden agendas or any of this nonsense. If there is anything that might even "look" like this nonsense believe me it is completely unintentional, I think in Greek and I write in English and some times it might not "come out" as intended.

So, I am going to say what I feel I must say and if I get banned, so be it.

Please take a look here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28096&page=2&pp=20 and see the answers to hormiga’s questions, like this one from QwertyMIDX "People like you give us hope Hormiga, we do really appreciate someone taking a serious intrest in our names."
Or here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=29569&page=2&pp=20 and check out Argadil’s replies, you can also look in this forum for Q&A about other unit and factions names like Sweboz, Casse etc.
In comparison, when I questioned the origins of Hoplitai and Hellenon I get this reply:
"Simply and politely put, the transliteration of οπλιται from ancient Greek to English is accepted by the rest of the world (outside of Modern Greeks) as "Hoplitai".

Is this a fair answer to a legitimate question considering these other answers or is there something else going on? I don’t mind if in Teleclos Arhelaou’s replies there is a “dig” here and there (IF there is any), that’s fine by me considering our "other" run-in (I for one don’t hold any grudges) so if its personal, he doesn’t like me or whatever that’s ok, but "collective Greek guilt" is simply annoying.

This was quoted from my earlier post: "As you can see it is not as easy as one might think and I believe that some kind of explanation should have been given by the EB team about the origins and pronunciation of some of the names-words".
This was the reply: "Over and over and over again I and other EB team members have detailed all of this. The only people who have ever raised a single peep about it are modern Greeks. While I hope that everyone can enjoy the mod, and the Greek voice mod too, I simply will not be able to be convinced that some, but not all, scholars and laymen in Greece are the only ones who should have the final say in all matters pertaining to their ancestors. We probably wouldn't have a problem here if we just put the ancient Greek characters themselves up there instead of the engish transliterations, but unfortunately we have made the decision a long time ago to force all other languages to be transliterated into English instead of trying to use other alphabets (even when we could, like with Greek)".
What does all these have to do with what I posted? But let's continue.

My reply to this: "Are you actually saying that no explanation is needed about the correct pronunciation of words like "Hoplitai" and "Hellenon", or do you assume that everybody "knows" how to pronounce them?"
Then khevlan posted this quoting the above: "We're using accepted academic standards of pronunciation; we have explained them in detail in the past, there is no reason to explain them again and again and again".

As you can see, I never questioned the pronunciation, what I said was that there might be a need for an explanation for it, which obviously I don’t need myself for Greek but I do for Sweboz for example, then later on he says that a guide will be issued and of course had I known that I would not have made the suggestion in the first place.

So what the hell is going on? Is anybody actually reading the posts fully before replying?

I also find this statement by khelvan to be totally out of character and totally inappropriate whether its about Greeks, Indians or Zulu.

"The discussions around this topic generally lead back to the same argument (my perception is that this is due to nationalistic feelings, but what do I know?). If you are in this group, then it is applicable to you. If you are not, you can thank a general group of "modern Greeks" who have, on multiple occasions, made the same argument over and over."

So I am damned if I am in this group and damned if I am not, since I AM Greek.. and I repeat, totally out of character and totally inappropriate considering also that regarding "made the same argument over and over" I’ve spent more than three hours looking at threads, and apart from "my argument-debate" (as O_Megas) about Arche Seleukeia, the rest of the "Greek arguments" are more or less like the arguments for any other faction, so what is this really all about?

Maybe I am just too naïve.. I don’t know.. but I have no idea of what’s going on.

O_Stratigos :bow:

khelvan
08-11-2005, 10:58
Stratigos, I guess you didn't read the part of my post that said not to take it personally. That should clue you in that my statement was not directed at you, when I make generalizations. I told you that it isn't anything personal, that we are simply no longer discussing the Greek transliteration. At some later date we may revisit this.

Again, don't take it personally. Relax. There is no need to play the martyr here, nor to write pages worth of defense of yourself. You're not under attack. If you want to respond to me, try to keep it to two paragraphs, I find concise discussions are much easier to read.

Cheers!

Edit: Just so we are clear, I was trying to indicate to you in my post why we weren't going to discuss things anymore. I was not making a statement that includes you in it. Unlike the Germanic and other languages, our Greek has been hounded over and over for months. So yes, we're going to react differently, and we have decided that it practically takes more time to discuss the Greek than it does to make the mod, and it just isn't something we want to do at this time.

Idomeneas
08-11-2005, 23:21
Stratigos, I guess you didn't read the part of my post that said not to take it personally. That should clue you in that my statement was not directed at you, when I make generalizations. I told you that it isn't anything personal, that we are simply no longer discussing the Greek transliteration. At some later date we may revisit this.

Again, don't take it personally. Relax. There is no need to play the martyr here, nor to write pages worth of defense of yourself. You're not under attack. If you want to respond to me, try to keep it to two paragraphs, I find concise discussions are much easier to read.

Cheers!

Edit: Just so we are clear, I was trying to indicate to you in my post why we weren't going to discuss things anymore. I was not making a statement that includes you in it. Unlike the Germanic and other languages, our Greek has been hounded over and over for months. So yes, we're going to react differently, and we have decided that it practically takes more time to discuss the Greek than it does to make the mod, and it just isn't something we want to do at this time.

Khelvan it would be better if you were avoiding generalizations in general. You say you didnt aimed at Stratigo, then who you were aiming? its not that we are too many Greeks around...

I want you to understand something and all the fellow members here. There is a basic reason why this whole fuzz is happening about greek or more corectly Ελληνικά. Unlike protogermanic or gaulish languages and dialects wich are dead or altered beyond recognision, Greek are still a living language spoken by a quite large number of people.

As a living language offcourse it evolved and enriched. Nobody can claim that we still speak without the slightest difference from Plato's age. But the basic grammar rules and the sound of letters (the ones that prevailed since in archaic age there where many alternatives) remained the same as skeleton of the language. As i posted before we have certain language speciments that froze in time like hymns. Anyway as i tried to say many times ancient greek exist inside the modern greek, but this can be seen only by somebody who has actual contact with the language and not just through books. Its not about agendas or nationalistic evil plans, its about the plain truth.

What i and every other Greek, i like to believe, try to do here is to really help you since your banner is accuracy. I know myself to fix those names when EB is out but i think is important to focus your attention on some minor things that its logical to be left out since there is no greek native or fluently speaking linguist among you, so all the fans can have a more accurate product. What troubles me is your stance as EB. Instead of saying ''well if those Greeks are tearing their clothes and insist so much maybe we should check on this by asking more opinions'' you say ''The scholar community decided that Greeks including the scholars pronounce wrong their mother tongue cause of alterations through time.'' When you are kindly asked to provide some evidences apart the vague ''scholars community'' arguement you say basically that you are bored to spend time over this issue. You say that you have discused it again. Well from what i can remember the last time this issue was brought on when there were spoted many grammar mistakes in the names of hellenistic units. While Teleklos admited that he didnt yet had the time to look over those stuff you and other members that didnt had any knowledge of greek started speaking about ''dialects'' ''ancient greek not like the modern'' and the whole thing ended in a mess. Im happy to see the names corected after Teleklos completed his work. What annoyed me that time was that you could say ''Hey we havent looked over that yet'' instead of raising a wall saying inaccurate things. The same thing annoyes me now.

Stratigos is basically right about transliteration in general non greek users will have a very distort view of Greek pronounciation. In vanilla RTW the unit Hoplite when selected instead of hopleetes cry ''hoplaits''. That is a proof of transliteration traps for english speakers. Instead of brushing him away better consider what he says.

Anyway i think the most proper person for this conversation would be Teleklos since he is the Greek expert and apart those minor things he is doing a fine job. The only reason i quote you is that you answered instead of him as his representator only without any expertise on the subject. I understand you try to defend EB. But have in mind that me and other greeks posting here (imo offcourse) dont try to offend you, dont question your studies, certainly dont have secret agendas or any nationalistic plans. Only try help you do a better mod. I would appreciate if i wasnt treated as a 13 year old fanatic trying to pass modern street slang as the language of Socrates. This is not the case here.

To end this, if you have an undisputted source please provide it so i can be enlighted. If not please do the effort considering the observations of greek fans some more. There is not point constantly creating taboo subjects. Taboo progress, taboo units, taboo cultures, taboo greek, what next? Maybe you should define what is allowed to be discussed?

I would be glad to see your thoughts on what i posted but i ll be unable to post soon cause tommorow i go to Crete for holidays.

Sorry for my bad english extending in more than two paragraphs

Narayanese
08-11-2005, 23:35
There's a spelling mistake in the slingers' desrciption, and the descriptions doesn't make it clear what difference it is between a standard Thureophoroi javelin and a Thorakitai one.

Judging from the previews, the EB team doing a really great job :2thumbsup: ~:cheers: ~:)



Sphendonetai:
Historically, slingers were uses pretty well.

Thorakitai:
They are armored in mail and carry heavy javelins instead of the lighter javelins carried by the Theurophoroi.

Thureophoroi:
They are well armed /---/ heavy javelins, and a stout spear.

O_Stratigos
08-12-2005, 08:23
Actually I did read the part that said not to take it personally khelvan, but I didn’t really have much choice after this:
If you are in this group, then it is applicable to you. If you are not, you can thank a general group of "modern Greeks" who have, on multiple occasions, made the same argument over and over."
Wouldn’t you have taken it personally?

I assure you that I am not "playing the martyr" here, not exactly my style you know.. just simply asking why are my questions treated so differently, and I wasn’t trying to defend myself because I thought I was under attack per se, but I genuinely couldn’t understand what -if anything- was going on when I am quoted on something, and then the reply has almost nothing to do with the quote and also (if and when) answers are given, are peppered with silly remarks.
About been concise, well.. I think that "a concise Greek" is probably an oxymoron..

Finally, I would like to leave you with these from Idomeneas
What i and every other Greek, i like to believe, try to do here is to really help you since your banner is accuracy - But have in mind that me and other greeks posting here (imo offcourse) dont try to offend you, dont question your studies, certainly dont have secret agendas or any nationalistic plans. Only try help you do a better mod. trusting that no one thinks that "to really help you since your banner is accuracy" and "only try help you do a better mod" is implying that you can't do it without help, and hoping that you and the rest of the EB team can see the sincerity in it all.

Αμην, Aμην λεγω υμιν.

O_Stratigos :bow:

khelvan
08-12-2005, 09:33
"You," in English, can mean many things, both a direct pronoun and a general one.

To be brief, all I was trying to say is that you, personally, were not the subject of Teleklos' message, and that we are doing our best to make a great mod. But discussions about the ancient Greek have gone nowhere in the past, and are taking too much time and energy away from our work, so they're set aside until later.

Malrubius
08-12-2005, 10:18
What's the big deal here?
är yoo ärgyooing fôr fenetik spellings?

~;)

Colovion
08-12-2005, 10:50
i love lamp

Chester
08-12-2005, 11:11
That was fun, but now on to other things.

Will Corinth be controlled by Macedon or Greek Cities?

Conqueror
08-12-2005, 13:32
Will Corinth be controlled by Macedon or Greek Cities?

The mod is WIP of corse, but this screenshot (https://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=olympiascreen44xh.jpg) shows it under the makedonian banner.

mad caligula
08-13-2005, 17:51
well odne team cant wait anymore for this mod

Teleklos Archelaou
09-01-2005, 21:46
I dont mean this in an accusatory way at all, but im wondering: Why are you guys including "Koinon Hellenon"? If im not mistaken, that is ahistorical for them to be unified. Why not use a more specific faction and just use province specific units and other things to make it so they could eventually become a more united greek faction if they conquered the other city states?(moving this from elsewhere) - Just to be sure, did you go through the faction description we posted - and the historical information? It's weird that no one had a problem with it on any of the boards that it was posted on originally. To make sure we understand each other correctly, this alliance only includes three provinces - not a vast ammalgamation of provinces. If there are specific questions about things from the description in relation to this, I'll be happy to try and answer them, but a general "it's ahistorical" without being specific is incredibly frustrating and will not get a very detailed response.

khelvan
09-02-2005, 06:55
Please forgive our new member, he was not aware of the decision we made not to discuss the pronunciation of Ancient Greek. Please forgive this viscious beating of such a long dead horse.

Simetrical
09-02-2005, 19:28
Hmm? What new member would that be, khelvan? :angel:

Big_John
09-02-2005, 19:36
Hmm? What new member would that be, khelvan? :angel:lol. but where did the post go, it was interesting. :sad:

Simetrical
09-04-2005, 03:28
lol. but where did the post go, it was interesting. :sad:
There was no post. It's your imagination. But a totally never-before-posted-in-this-thread-by-me link that you can use to inform yourself on the topic without my in any way being disputatious or otherwise breaking unwritten policy that I was never informed of but of course would never have broken anyway is this (http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/harry/lan/grkphon.htm).

Divinus Arma
09-04-2005, 05:15
That link goes to never-never land. Also known as page cannot be displayed.

Big_John
09-04-2005, 08:49
There was no post. It's your imagination.must have been the yellow shrooms..

That link goes to never-never land. Also known as page cannot be displayed.this is a similar link, through what i hear from the grape-vine...

http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/harry/lan/grkphon.htm

Shigawire
09-04-2005, 08:56
Corrected Simetrical's link... (good link btw)
http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/harry/lan/grkphon.htm

That pretty much explains all the pieces of this issue.
Let's not have it fester in this thread..

khelvan
09-04-2005, 09:25
Oh no, don't make me lock the thread... :inquisitive:

caesar44
09-04-2005, 11:44
[QUOTE=Simetrical]There was no post. It's your imagination. But a totally never-before-posted-in-this-thread-by-me link that you can use to inform yourself on the topic without my in any way being...


Hhhhmmmm..... :oops:

Alexanderofmacedon
09-04-2005, 20:23
I'm very excited! ~:)

Ano2
09-16-2005, 12:51
to cope with Makedonian advances in phalanx warfare, changes in traditional hoplite equipment have been made. Lighter armed but faster hoplitai now can chase down and deal more effectively with the threat of peltastai, and the more elite hoplitai have a better chance, with some help, of staving off the Makedonian troops.



Just a question with regards to this, were regular hoplites still slow and heavily armoured, and it was only the outrunners who had reduced armour?

I ask becuase if regular hoplite equiptment was made lighter to allow them to be faster, then surely they shouldn't fight in the RTW phalanx since this makes them go at a snails pace (Unless it is turned off, in which case they cannot use their 12 foot pears, thus makin ghte longer spear pointless)?