Cultures aren't equal

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Cultures aren't equal
Michael Barone (archive)

August 8, 2005 | printer friendly version Print | email to a friend Recommend to a friend

Anyone who has been keeping up with British opinion since the July 7 bombings will have noticed that "multiculturalism" is under sharp attack.

Multiculturalism preaches that we should allow and encourage immigrants and their children to maintain and celebrate their own culture apart from the national culture. Society should be not a melting pot but, in the phrase of former New York Mayor David Dinkins, "a gorgeous mosaic." That mosaic, of course, looks less gorgeous as people surveyed the work of the British-born-and-raised bombers.

In the past, Tony Blair has spoken favorably about multiculturalism. But on July 7, he struck a different note. "It is important, however, that the terrorists realize our determination to defend our values and our way of life is greater than their determination to cause the death and destruction of innocent people and impose their extremism on the world."

Sadly, the muticulturalist policies of Blair's Labor government and its Conservative predecessors gave refuge to preachers of Islamist hate in what some have called "Londonistan."

Even before the bombings that prompted second thoughts, the chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality said, "We need to assert that there is a core of Britishness," and the home secretary introduced English language tests for citizenship. Now, the Blair government has moved to expel Muslim clerics who preach hatred and terrorism, and the left-wing Guardian fired a writer who was a member of Hizb Ut Tahrir, a radical group that advocates a "clash of civilization" and urges Muslims to kill Jews.

Writers in other tolerant countries have been noticing the blowback from multiculturalism. The Dutch novelist Leon de Winter wrote that as traditional Calvinist discipline frayed and Muslim immigrants rejected Dutch tolerance, "the delicate mechanism of Holland's traditional tolerant society gradually lost its balance."

In The Age of Melbourne, Australia, Pamela Bone wrote, "Perhaps it is time to say, you are welcome, but this is the way it is here." The Age's Tony Parkinson quoted the French writer Jean Francois Revel's Cold War comment, "A civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself." Tolerating intolerance, goodhearted people are beginning to see, does not necessarily produce tolerance in turn.

The conservative Telegraph of London ran a series of articles on extolling Britishness and placed on its website the contributions, positive as well as a few negative, of dozens of citizens. The nonagenarian W.F. Deedes, a journalist since the 1930s, perhaps summed it up best: "The reputation we have in distant lands, I have learned in my travels, is higher than we give ourselves. They admire us for our social stability, our parliamentary and diplomatic experience, for fair play, for tolerance, for a willingness to help lame dogs over stiles, as well as for some of the qualities Shakespeare sang about in his plays."

When I was in Britain for the election in May, I was surprised to hear nothing from Tony Blair (or other politicians) about Britain's positive contributions to the world. Now, they are being heard.

Multiculturalism is based on the lie that all cultures are morally equal. In practice, that soon degenerates to: All cultures are morally equal, except ours, which is worse. But all cultures are not equal in respecting representative government, guaranteed liberties and the rule of law. And those things arose not simultaneously and in all cultures, but in certain specific times and places -- mostly in Britain and America, but also in various parts of Europe.

In America, as in Britain, multiculturalism has become the fashion in large swathes of our society. So the Founding Fathers are presented only as slaveholders, World War II is limited to the internment of Japanese-Americans and the bombing of Hiroshima. Slavery is identified with America, though it has existed in every society and the antislavery movement arose first among English-speaking evangelical Christians.

But most Americans know there is something special about our cultural heritage. While Harvard and Brown are replacing scholars of the founding period with those studying other things, book-buyers are snapping up first-rate histories of the Founders by David McCullough, Joseph Ellis and Ron Chernow.

Mutilculturalist intellectuals do not think our kind of society is worth defending. But millions here and increasing numbers in Britain and other countries know better.

Michael Barone is a senior writer for U.S. News & World Report and principal coauthor of The Almanac of American Politics.

In other words the left was wrong again. ~;)

[Steppe Merc]

I don't get it. Why is respecting other cultures wrong? To me, the articale just made a hugely bizzare leap from assuming that all people who respect other cultures believe that WW2 was just about Japanese American internment camps.

[JAG]

Here you go Gawain - someone from the left over here agreeing with you. Funnily enough, I agree with much of what he states too, why must you use the old stereotype, stupid label with your 'comment'? :no:


Multiculturalism is not the best way to welcome people to our country
It promotes not a melting pot but a segregated society of sealed off cultures, each sticking to its own

There is a strand of the right - from Robert Kilroy-Silk to Richard Littlejohn to the Broadmoor Wing of the Tory party - that attacks multiculturalism as a proxy for attacking immigrants and refugees. It is their way of expressing nostalgia for a monocultural, all-white England without being openly racist. The conservative bromides have a not-so-subtle subtext: Why is everyone so different these days? Can't we go back to how it was? And, implicitly - why are there so many black and brown faces?

That's why many of us feel jittery when we hear multiculturalism criticised, as the Tory leader-in-waiting David Davis did in a speech this week. Even if some of the points sound reasonable, it's hard to shake off the thought: what is he signalling? Who is he appealing to? But in among the bad reasons for opposing multiculturalism - hinted at by Davis - there are some good reasons, and it is time we overcame our nervousness and heard them.

I am the child of an immigrant myself, and I believe we should take more immigrants and refugees into Britain, not fewer. But it is increasingly clear that, forged with the best of intentions, multiculturalism has become a counter-productive way of welcoming people to our country. It promotes not a melting pot where we all mix together but a segregated society of sealed-off cultures, each sticking to its own.

In the summer of 2001, Bradford, Burnley and Oldham ignited into some of the worst rioting in recent British history. Streets were trashed, shops were looted, cars exploded after being set on fire, and clashes between Asian and white youths went on for days. In the aftermath, the Home Office commissioned the distinguished academic Ted Cantle to investigate what had happened. He discovered "shockingly divided communities", where ethnic groups lived "parallel" and "polarised" lives, never mixing, never meeting each other, living in "almost complete segregation" based on race.

Why? Cantle found that funding for local projects - from community centres to schools - was invariably conducted on ethnic lines: a "Muslim" school there, a "white" community centre here. Nobody could bid for cash unless they were appealing to a particular "community" - rather than the community as a whole. Faith schools made the problem even worse. Places where different ethnic groups could meet and become friends, develop sexual relationships or have rows, simply did not exist. Since it was official multicultural policy that different cultures should be preserved rather than blended, spliced and interwoven, this all seemed rational.

But there is another dysfunctional aspect to multiculturalism. In practice, it acts as though immigrant cultures are unchanging and should be preserved in aspic. This forces multiculturalists into alliance with the most conservative and unpleasant parts of immigrant communities. For example, what would you do if, in your block of flats, there was a white family where the women of the house rarely left without the patriarch's permission, and - on the very rare occasions when they did - they covered their face so only their eyes were visible? What would you do if, in the same family, there was a gay son who knew he could never tell his relatives, because he would be beaten and then ostracised from everybody he has ever known?

The answer is easy (I hope): you would be disgusted, and you would try to help them. But there is a family just like this in the building where I live, and there is only one difference - they are Asian. So I do nothing, and nor do any of the other nice liberals who live here, even though this family is as British as we are. Isn't there a word for treating people differently because of the colour of their skin?

Multiculturalism has caused British people to do this on a national scale. All this time, we could have been helping women and gay people from immigrant communities to enjoy the fruits of a free society. This would have created interesting and more progressive versions of Islam that would fight back against jihadism far more effectively than a thousand government initiatives or police raids. Instead, we have been inadvertently helping the conservative men who want to keep these groups in a subordinate position.

We have been acting as though there is one thing called "Muslim culture", and elderly imams or enraged, misogynistic young men are its only voice. A few weeks ago, it was driven home to me how wrong this is. I wrote about how the best way to defeat jihadists was to empower Muslim women, and I was inundated with e-mails from Muslim women, many explaining how the logic of multiculturalism weakened their hand.

One, in particular, is worth quoting at length: "My younger sisters go to Denbigh High School [in Luton] which was famous in the headlines last year because a girl pupil went to the High Court for her right to wear the jilbab [a long body-length shroud]. Shabinah [the girl who took the case] saw it as a great victory for Muslim women ... but what happened next shows this is not a victory for us.

"My sisters, and me when I was younger, could always tell our dad and uncles that we weren't allowed to wear the jilbab. Once the rules were changed, that excuse was not possible any more so my sisters have now been terrified into wearing this cumbersome and dehumanising garment all day against their wishes. Now most girls in the school do the same. They don't want to, but now they cannot resist community pressure ... I am frightened somebody is going to fight for the right to wear a burqa next and then my sisters will not even be able to show their faces."

So to multiculturalists, we have to ask: which Muslim culture do you want to preserve? The jilbab-wearing culture of Shabinah and the mullahs, or the culture of the hundreds of Muslim girls who curse them? All immigrant communities are divided and diverse; it is a form of soft racism to assume they have One Culture that should be respected at all costs.

But multiculturalism binds the hands of those who want cultural change in immigrant communities by demanding tolerance and respect for reactionary traditions. At a time when there is a battle within British Islam whose outcome will affect us all, is it wise to continue like this?

It is not too late to unpick the dysfunctional logic of multiculturalism. We can actively promote dialogue, meeting-places and inter-breeding. No more funding of divisive faith schools. No more separate community centres.

Britain has the highest rate of mixed-race partnerships anywhere in the world, largely due to sexual relationships between white and black people in London. This - not multiculturalism - is the British tradition to promote. No more bland "tolerance": let's have rows and laughs and sex. Our future lies in this glorious mixing of races, not in separating them out and hermetically sealing them off in their own outdated "cultures".

Multiculturalism is dead; long live miscegenation.

j.hari@independent.co.uk

I am all for respecting cultures, but it is true we should not respect cultures which are intolerant to others and all about having values which directly conflict with a liberal, modern, western nation.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Here you go Gawain - someone from the left over here agreeing with you. Funnily enough, I agree with much of what he states too, why must you use the old stereotype, stupid label with your 'comment'?

All this proves is what Ive been saying all along. Your no idiot. Even you have to face the truth once in a while ~D

[Tribesman]

Nice article Gawain ~;)
is important, however, that the terrorists realize our determination to defend our values and our way of life is greater than their determination to cause the death and destruction of innocent people and impose their extremism on the world."
So he has chosen to change his countries values instead of defend them .
Oh why are you Brits so silent on these new proposals , are you living in fear ? Have the terrorists already won ?
3 topics in the past few days with mentions of the changes of values and policies , yet not a single British poster addressing them .
Does it deserve a new thread "Britons , are you running scared ?"
After all the "its just a bombing , lets get on with things" whats happened ?

Jag , In the summer of 2001, Bradford, Burnley and Oldham ignited into some of the worst rioting in recent British history. Streets were trashed, shops were looted, cars exploded after being set on fire, and clashes between Asian and white youths went on for days. In the aftermath, the Home Office commissioned the distinguished academic Ted Cantle to investigate what had happened. He discovered "shockingly divided communities", where ethnic groups lived "parallel" and "polarised" lives, never mixing, never meeting each other, living in "almost complete segregation" based on race.
Oh my oh my , do you remember the eighties ? I havn't seen any Blakelocks in Oldham , have you ? Now I wonder what they did to resolve isses in those shockingly divided communities ?

Oh and before you try and bring up diversity and mixing Gawain , take a look at the "Irish" community that used to be in Sunnyside/Woodside , or the Russians out on Coney , or how about Black haarlem and Spanish haarlem , or little Italy , maybe all the Germans upstate . And bloody hell where would you start in Brooklynn ..... Do you see a pattern ?

[Samurai Waki]

It has nothing to do with respecting cultures and everything to do with understanding them. If a person moves into a country it should be assumed that the person moving into sed country has an understanding of that cultures values and ways and should strive to uphold it. If he doesn't like the culture then that person should leave, or sadly as events such as 9/11 or the London Bombings have transpired, force them out. A Citizen of a free and democratic country has the right to disagree, but the Islamic Extremists don't disagree, they hate. This guy has the hit the nail on the head. However, I wouldn't necessarily blame it on the left or the right, both conservatives and liberals share equal blame.

[Byzantine Prince]

There is only one real culture to speak of. The rest are superflous and insignificant.


Every nation on earth that wants to accomplish anything has to abide to it. This new culture that we have created, it is the one that will endure. It is the one that will prevail over all. It is without a doubt the dawn of human existence as it should be. The culture of the philosopher.

[Azi Tohak]

I must say, it is nice to see two articles from you two on similar subjects. But JAG, who defines what are:


...cultures which are intolerant to others and all about having values which directly conflict with a liberal, modern, western nation.

A government committee? A bunch of PhDs (if you call them that there)? Even now I know there is a reaction (in the courts... whoopee) from a group who resents being one of the banned. If your court system is like ours, this crap could go on for years. And deciding who is 'good' and who is 'bad' will probably take longer.


I don't get it. Why is respecting other cultures wrong? To me, the articale just made a hugely bizzare leap from assuming that all people who respect other cultures believe that WW2 was just about Japanese American internment camps.

No Steppe, respecting other cultures is not wrong, it is good. But some of those cultures should not be respected. The fun part is deciding which ones to respect or not (are bad or good). Both articles point that out (more or less).

For Gawains article, I know first hand how people (from wherever) insult our cultures. Look at the .org itself! This backroom does that all the time! What hasn't been grasped by everyone is that some cultures are inherently bad. I think it was Red Harvest who pointed out that the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies in the middle ages was one of the wonders of the age. Men from every religion, nation, thought process were welcomed and accepted. And because of the strong rule of their kings (especially Roger I and II), the Kingdom worked. But it still oppressed half the population (oppressed (being a relative term...they weren't slaves, but they weren't first class citizens either). Their brand of multiculturalism worked great, for men.


It is not too late to unpick the dysfunctional logic of multiculturalism. We can actively promote dialogue, meeting-places and inter-breeding. No more funding of divisive faith schools. No more separate community centres.

Personally, I think the best way to get people to tolerate each other is stick them together. Public schools. It will still be miserable for a few students (it always is), but at least then you are forced to put up with others. For me, it was my State University that made me see how the 'other half' lives. Sure, you are still going to have your private schools, bastions of whiteness here anyway, but those are very small groups.

But don't forget, some people will hate you. It doesn't matter what you do. Someone will hate you for just being you.

Azi

P.S. to any Brits out there, what is a 'row'? as in "let's have rows and laughs and sex"

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Personally, I think the best way to get people to tolerate each other is stick them together. Public schools. It will still be miserable for a few students (it always is), but at least then you are forced to put up with others. For me, it was my State University that made me see how the 'other half' lives. Sure, you are still going to have your private schools, bastions of whiteness here anyway, but those are very small groups.

Well for me it was the Marines. You learned not only to live with others but to depend on them for your life. I think everyone should go through some sort of bootcamp and do a year or two of public service of some type. No exceptions.

[ichi]

There's a difference between multiculturalism and tolerance for extreme intolerance, just as there's a difference between pride in one's culture and xenophobia.

Some supporters of multiculturalism have been in denial and have gone too far in failing to address hateful speech, just as some people who have pride in their culture or race have gone too far in accepting racist actions and policies.

This shouldn't be about left or right, that simply polarizes and allows extreme views to dominate the discussion. The questions that need to be ask relate to how to integrate diverse cultures under a national banner without destroying the cultures of those who make up a nation.

What freedom is there if the only option is to be of one kind, one race, religion, or culture. Diversity makes us stronger, and should be cultivated in a free society. Equally important is to recognize hateful extremists and to deal with those who would destroy social harmony.

Multiculturalism is a wonderful thing, and is different from addressing criminal behavior. We should never be tolerant of threats, and IMO some in the west have failed to realize that they have taken things to far. Equally unforgivable is to allow the reaction that confuses tolerance with stupidity.

ichi :bow:

[Azi Tohak]

There's a difference between multiculturalism and tolerance for extreme intolerance, just as there's a difference between pride in one's culture and xenophobia.

Some supporters of multiculturalism have been in denial and have gone too far in failing to address hateful speech, just as some people who have pride in their culture or race have gone too far in accepting racist actions and policies.

This shouldn't be about left or right, that simply polarizes and allows extreme views to dominate the discussion. The questions that need to be ask relate to how to integrate diverse cultures under a national banner without destroying the cultures of those who make up a nation.

What freedom is there if the only option is to be of one kind, one race, religion, or culture. Diversity makes us stronger, and should be cultivated in a free society. Equally important is to recognize hateful extremists and to deal with those who would destroy social harmony.

Multiculturalism is a wonderful thing, and is different from addressing criminal behavior. We should never be tolerant of threats, and IMO some in the west have failed to realize that they have taken things to far. Equally unforgivable is to allow the reaction that confuses tolerance with stupidity.

ichi :bow:

Okay, one point for ichi. How do you propose to integrate everyone?

Azi

[PanzerJaeger]

Thank God some people are coming to their senses, although Im sure it will pass soon enough.

You would think its only common sense to kick out those muslims yelling "Britain will burn!" on the street corner, but apparently it takes an act of the Prime Minister to get the ball rolling.

Multiculturalism has a bad effect on a nation and unassimilated cultures should not be allowed to become dangerous.

[Tribesman]

, what is a 'row'? as in "let's have rows and laughs and sex"
1 a line
2 pulling on an oar in a boat
3 drawing a line , taking the oar and beating them over the head with it and throwing them out of the boat for crossing the line.
So.......
An arguement , I am not sure about the laughs and sex bit though ~;)

[Kanamori]

"I am all for respecting cultures, but it is true we should not respect cultures which are intolerant to others and all about having values which directly conflict with a liberal, modern, western nation."

Zing!

[Papewaio]

I am all for a multiculturalism that upholds the best ideals.

I am against those who seek a single mono-culture. That is the fascists, apartheid followers, neo-nazis, skinheads, and the fundamentalist extremists who all seek to enforce their ideas by violence and have shown a terrible intolerance for others.

Hate speech should not be tolerated. Calls to kill someone because they do not belong to your culture should not be tolerated. Those who speak of training others to kill the nations soldiers should be hanged by the highest court in the land and their goods given half to a charity and the other to the idealology they hated most.

It should not be assumed that differences are automatically good or bad. Differences should be examined. There should be an inherent respect for a countries prior cultures, that is the indigenous population and the settlers that followed, and the ideals that have allowed the country to flourish and attract immigrants.

I think everyone should go to secular public school as a mixed group. Leave the weekends for the family and religious learning.

[bmolsson]

It seems to a large portion of supporters to the single culture idea in Iraq these days. They keep on trying to kick out people daily......

Being multi-cultural is not the same as being soft against terrorism and hate crimes. The western society are today under siege from groupings that uses the strength and weakness of a modern western society, openess and tolerance. The moment we let go of our openess and tolerance, we are nothing more than a totalitarian state again. It's hard to defend our lifestyle, but believe me, it's worth it......

[Red Harvest]

I am all for a multiculturalism that upholds the best ideals.

I am against those who seek a single mono-culture. That is the fascists, apartheid followers, neo-nazis, skinheads, and the fundamentalist extremists who all seek to enforce their ideas by violence and have shown a terrible intolerance for others.

Hate speech should not be tolerated. Calls to kill someone because they do not belong to your culture should not be tolerated. Those who speak of training others to kill the nations soldiers should be hanged by the highest court in the land and their goods given half to a charity and the other to the idealology they hated most.

It should not be assumed that differences are automatically good or bad. Differences should be examined. There should be an inherent respect for a countries prior cultures, that is the indigenous population and the settlers that followed, and the ideals that have allowed the country to flourish and attract immigrants.

I think everyone should go to secular public school as a mixed group. Leave the weekends for the family and religious learning.

Ditto! It's the intolerance that is the heart of the matter. Give no quarter to the intolerant. I've been saying, "I have no tolerance for the intolerant" for years--partly because it is a fun self conflicting statement, but also because I believe it. That is one reason I voted for McCain vs. Bush...McCain came out against blatant pandering to intolerant religous types and was crucified by the GOP primary voters for it. I think it was just before a major cluster of primaries, but as a result my party preference (not really affiliation) was given an immediate about face.

One thing is certain, intolerant cultures are not superior as long as they remain that way.

[ichi]

Okay, one point for ichi. How do you propose to integrate everyone?

Azi

By not only tolerating cultural (and political and otehr) differences, but allowing them to flourish, up to the point that
they become extremist and destructive of the common good.

Papewaio (as always) summed it up pretty good

ichi :bow:

[PanzerJaeger]

By not only tolerating cultural (and political and otehr) differences, but allowing them to flourish, up to the point that
they become extremist and destructive of the common good.

Thats not practicle in my opinion. Lets look at the mexicans..

Would you have spanish speaking teachers for mexican students? Would you have the government endorse spanish the same as english? Would you have mexican history taught as equal to american history? Would you allow groups that believe in Reconquista?

Multiculturalism should only be moderately tolerated and only to a limited extent. When I came to America i learned the language and the culture, and didnt expect it to be any other way.

People are a lot more successful if they assimilate, not desperately try and hold on to a culture that apparently wasnt good enough to stay in to begin with.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

It's not about left being wrong...

It's about French being right ~D

You're all turning French ~:cool:

Louis,

PS: what I mean is: this is quite typical leftist Franch standpoint...

[Al Khalifah]

Personally, I think the best way to get people to tolerate each other is stick them together.
Like the prison wardens who put that Asian boy in the same prison cell as the known white supremacist and racist? They didn't resolve their differences at all - one of them killed the other. The resulting inquiry exposed no end of these cases where prison guards had created their own prison odd-couples and in nearly all of them abuse was found.

People filled with hatred cannot just be put together and expected to resolve their differences like in the movies. Some people should just be seperated.

[Samurai Waki]

thank god that Asian knew Kung Fu :charge:

[Al Khalifah]

Well, not exactly...

BBC NEWS: Inquiry into racist cell murder (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3196282.stm)

[Del Arroyo]

A certain level of cultural agreement is always necessary for any nation to function well. Things are a bit too dis-integrated in the US and many other Western countries right now, and it's good to see that people are starting to recognize this, though it may be tough to fight due to a startling decadence and lack of vigor in our native Cultures.

As far as the Mexicans in the US-- I say "meh". My Spanish is 99% as good as my English, so if they took us all over tomorrow it would be about the same to me. ~D

But seriously, although there are many perspectives and values in our culture that Mexicans are lacking, there is also much that we can learn from them, or rather much that we have forgotten. Mexican culture is young and dumb, but it is also young and vigorous, and has potential to grow. Our culture is in a phase of decadence. Among many other things, we Americans use FAR too many drugs.

It seems to me is that the only way the Mexicans will be able to solve glaring flaws and inadequacies in their own culture will be to model from us; and that we may make some progress towards finding ourselves if we take a few tips from them.

For me, integration is inevitable and beneficial. We already have alot in common and a proven record of getting along "ok".

Hispanic militants and separatists, of course, are in complete opposition to this and, when and if they become a real problem, should be crushed by any means necessary.

DA

[Samurai Waki]

Lies!

[Papewaio]

I've been saying, "I have no tolerance for the intolerant for years"--partly because it is a fun self conflicting statement, but also because I believe it.

I have a very similar saying.

"I'm a bigot about bigots."

[King Henry V]

This multiculturalism business is often sheer hypocracy. A few weeks I heard a report about how Oman is trying to defend its ancient heritage and its way of life. If someone said they were trying to defend their native culture in Britain, they'd be accused of racism! :dizzy2:

[Duke Malcolm]

They wouldn't just be accused of racism, they would be imprisoned for incitement to racial hatred

[Hurin_Rules]

If cultures shouldn't be treated equally, then why should people?

[A.Saturnus]

What´s that culture thing you all talk about anyway?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

We're still playing who got the longest here?

Louis,

[Steppe Merc]

Thats not practicle in my opinion. Lets look at the mexicans..

Would you have spanish speaking teachers for mexican students? Would you have the government endorse spanish the same as english? Would you have mexican history taught as equal to american history? Would you allow groups that believe in Reconquista?
First off, I don't think people in Mexico would care much about when the Spaniards kicked out the Muslims in Spain.
But I do think it is a bit foolish to have spanish only teachers. While speaking only spanish, it would be difficult to succeed in the US. If the student speaks only spanish, then they need to have a teacher to help teach them english that speaks spanish in order to help learn. But students will need to know how to speak english.
About the History, I think that we learn focus far to much about American History, at least in my school. Two years is far to long for only 200 years or so, when we don't learn anything about the Greeks, Romans and their contemporaries and without anything about the Medieval era. So no, I wouldn't care much about the history of Mexico, but far to much is focused on American history.

[Goofball]

In other words the left was wrong again. ~;)

Actually, "the left" was not wrong again. There is a big difference between multiculturalism and "tolerating intolerance."

I love and embrace diversity in my country (and there is a lot of it, particularly in the area where I live).

Multiculturalism means being able to take part in a potlatch ceremony in a Snuneymuxw big house in the morning, eat sushi for lunch, watch dragon-boat races in the afternoon, enjoy a tandoori dinner, and have an evening stroll to listen to the street performers near the harbor (everything from bagpipers to fire/eaters to country musicians).

That is multiculturalism, and quite frankly I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would be against it.

What multiculturalism is not:

Tolerating an Imam who preaches hatred against Jews and Christians in the name of Allah
Embracing aspects of other cultures that allow for the degrading or violent treatment of women
Smiling indulgently and winking at each other when grampa complains about the "chinks" who own the corner store because "that's just his generation"
Giving even an iota of respect to a Christian who preaches hatred against gays in the name of Jesus
I think, Gawain, that you will find that almost all of us "lefties" are pretty good practitioners of the real multiculturalism, not the version of it like xenophobic authors of articles like the one you posted try to paint.

Every culture in the world has aspects of it that are shameful and/or distasteful. True multiculturalism is about embracing the good, not the bad. Especially since when you look at it, most of the ugly aspects of cultures involve intolerance, which runs directly against true multiculturalism.

[Ser Clegane]

Excellent post, Goofball - exactly to the point :bow:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I think, Gawain, that you will find that almost all of us "lefties" are pretty good I think, Gawain, that you will find that almost all of us "lefties" are pretty good practitioners of the real multiculturalism, not the version of it like xenophobic authors of articles like the one you posted try to paint.of the real multiculturalism, not the version of it like xenophobic authors of articles like the one you posted try to paint.

Goof I thought you said you were a conservative and you just proved it. Most of the left are indeed practitioners of multiculturalism but not in the way you say. They think its fine to have your own seperate culture in another land and that all cultures are equal. Any oposition is seen as opression and bigotry.

[Goofball]

Excellent post, Goofball - exactly to the point :bow:

Thanks SC.

:bow:


Goof I thought you said you were a conservative and you just proved it.

I'm shocked G! I thought you knew that simply being Canadian automatically put me about three steps left of Chairman Mao by American standards...

~;)

I'm definitely a fiscal conservative, but I am an extreme social liberal.


Most of the left are indeed practitioners of multiculturalism but not in the way you say. They think its fine to have your own seperate culture in another land and that all cultures are equal. Any oposition is seen as opression and bigotry.

Well, I have to disagree. Most of my friends (like me) are young professionals who make (and want to keep, rather than hand over to the gov't) a lot of money, but also want to enjoy a rich, diverse society and we really don't give a crap if gays want to get married or women want to have early-term abortions. So, are we left or are we right?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well, I have to disagree. Most of my friends (like me) are young professionals who make (and want to keep, rather than hand over to the gov't) a lot of money, but also want to enjoy a rich, diverse society and we really don't give a crap if gays want to get married or women want to have early-term abortions. So, are we left or are we right?

You are conflicted ~D

The point is that in general the left supports multiculturalism in any form while those on the right generally accept your version of multicultuarlism.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Goof I thought you said you were a conservative and you just proved it. Most of the left are indeed practitioners of multiculturalism but not in the way you say. They think its fine to have your own seperate culture in another land and that all cultures are equal. Any oposition is seen as opression and bigotry.

It might be the case for American left. But you got no idea how close your "article" ("" included thanks to really poor text) is to French republican left!

You're a left commie in the closet ~D

Louis,

[Hurin_Rules]

Again I ask: If you're not going to treat cultures equally, why would you treat people equally?

If you're ready to rank and judge cultures according to how they differ from yours, what basis is there for refraining from doing the same for people?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Again I ask: If you're not going to treat cultures equally, why would you treat people equally?

If you're ready to rank and judge cultures according to how they differ from yours, what basis is there for refraining from doing the same for people?

Ive said this numerous times. I lookat nations and cultures like people. I dont treat people or nations as equal. I look at them and judge them. I treat them equal in that I look at them all the same to start. Just as there are good and bad people there are good and bad cultures and nations.

[Red Harvest]

The point is that in general the left supports multiculturalism in any form while those on the right generally accept your version of multicultuarlism.

Which left is that? Is that the "left" that is to the left of Dubya/Rove? Or the left of the GOP that was considered moderate at one time. Or the independents, or the personal liberty focused libertarian offshoots? Or the moderade democrats? Or the liberal democrats? Or the socialists, or communists?

"Generally" speaking of course... I've seen most xenophobic comments coming from those "generally" considered on the "right"--say, somewhere right of McCain...how far? I'm not sure.

[Papewaio]

This multiculturalism business is often sheer hypocracy. A few weeks I heard a report about how Oman is trying to defend its ancient heritage and its way of life. If someone said they were trying to defend their native culture in Britain, they'd be accused of racism! :dizzy2:

If that meant starting Druid ceremonies that don't hurt anyone and being a tree hugger I don't see why.

If they said lets go back to being headhunters of anyone of a different village then I think it might hit a few problems.

[Papewaio]

What´s that culture thing you all talk about anyway?

Culture:
The way we approach sex, drugs and rock'n'roll... plus a few minor side issues like how we approach language, food, religion and a very very minor side issue of philosophy ~D

[PanzerJaeger]

First off, I don't think people in Mexico would care much about when the Spaniards kicked out the Muslims in Spain.

That is not the reconquista I was talking about. Many mexicans embrace the Reconquista of the southwest through immigration and block voting.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Which left is that? Is that the "left" that is to the left of Dubya/Rove? Or the left of the GOP that was considered moderate at one time. Or the independents, or the personal liberty focused libertarian offshoots? Or the moderade democrats? Or the liberal democrats? Or the socialists, or communists?

"Generally" speaking of course... I've seen most xenophobic comments coming from those "generally" considered on the "right"--say, somewhere right of McCain...how far? I'm not sure.

Once more you demonstrate your hypocracy. Well generally speaking that is ~D

PS when I or anyone says left or right I generally take that to mean of center.

[Del Arroyo]

Yeah Panzer, I know the ones you're talking about, that are all caught up with BS about "la raza" and stuff like that-- right now it all seems pretty harmless to me and I doubt most of them would be serious if it came down to it... but if it's ever necessary, I'll have no compunctions about killing them.

DA

[PanzerJaeger]

Im just afraid as they become more numerous and start voting in block they will bring the same corruption and crappy government thats in Mexico to the US. The biggest problem in a democracy is the block voting, its hurt the south tremendously and it will do the same in the southwest sooner or later.

[PanzerJaeger]

Seattle?

[PanzerJaeger]

Isnt Washington above Oregon.. man I hope so or that would be embarrassing.

I was suggesting they probably arent as thick up there.

[Del Arroyo]

Panzer: It is my feeling that the kind of corruption they have in Mexico would be pretty damned difficult to transplant. Anyone with a reasonable shot at any kind of power would have grown up here, been educated here and gone to university here, and be infused with different notions. Plus the corruption in Mexico is also a self-feeding thing-- it always was corrupt and therefore it is difficult to make it otherwise. It would be pretty difficult to drag our comparitively clean system down to that level.

In fact I would imagine that any "Mexican" rising to be a cop or a politician, being an "outsider" would try and be twice as "American" and straight and good as anyone else. Mexico is a different world with a different reality. You transplant people here and they are different. It's that simple.

DA

[Del Arroyo]

Might I add that corruption is not an attractive cultural habit. A cop in Mexico fishes for bribes because his pay is inadequate without them, and because those who came before him did it-- not because he admires it as a positive thing. Additionally, those he stops for traffic violations will almost always prefer to bribe him than deal with the Mexican Dept of Revenue (which is a HASSLE, with a capital 'H').

So you see now that there are more layers to it? Nobody likes corruption, indeed in Mexico it is widely reviled, though accepted. Of all the possible things immigrants might like to bring into our system, it is probably on the bottom of the list.

Additionally, Mexican corruption starts at the top, i.e. with the decadent social elite. For better or worse, the immigrants we're getting are mostly the very dregs of their society.

DA

[PanzerJaeger]

Panzer: It is my feeling that the kind of corruption they have in Mexico would be pretty damned difficult to transplant. Anyone with a reasonable shot at any kind of power would have grown up here, been educated here and gone to university here, and be infused with different notions. Plus the corruption in Mexico is also a self-feeding thing-- it always was corrupt and therefore it is difficult to make it otherwise. It would be pretty difficult to drag our comparitively clean system down to that level.

In fact I would imagine that any "Mexican" rising to be a cop or a politician, being an "outsider" would try and be twice as "American" and straight and good as anyone else. Mexico is a different world with a different reality. You transplant people here and they are different. It's that simple.

Good to hear. I havent really looked into mexican corruption, its just always bothered me that they are so backwards compared to the US and many of them want to come and change America...

Corruption is certainly not prized, but is it endemic of that culture? Ive got no idea, but its something to watch for..

[Red Harvest]

Once more you demonstrate your hypocracy. Well generally speaking that is ~D

PS when I or anyone says left or right I generally take that to mean of center.

Gawain, I find it hard to imagine you have any idea where the center might be, but I would like to hear what you think "center" is. You are quoting the far right blogs endlessly, and as best I can tell nearly always in agreement with them.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gawain, I find it hard to imagine you have any idea where the center might be, but I would like to hear what you think "center" is. You are quoting the far right blogs endlessly, and as best I can tell nearly always in agreement with them.

Why the center is left of me of course and the right of you.

[Red Harvest]

Why the center is left of me of course and the right of you.

Just as I thought, you have no idea.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Just as I thought, you have no idea.

Great intellectual reply. ~D

[Red Harvest]

Great intellectual reply. ~D

You didn't give me anything worth working with... To me it just reaffirms that your whole supposition about multi-culturalism is unfounded.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

To me it just reaffirms that your whole supposition about multi-culturalism is unfounded.

And just what is my supposition?

[Red Harvest]

And just what is my supposition?

That it is wrong headed "leftyism." You are so into this moral righteousness craze. Now you are trying to cut multi-culturalism into segments so that you can still conveniently transfer those you consider lefty's "over there, you know with the bad guys."

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Once more you demonstrate your hypocracy. Well generally speaking that is ~D

PS when I or anyone says left or right I generally take that to mean of center.

Left? Right?

For sure it's a leftist position! It's about time Gawain find out what left really is! Get out of the US and stop thinking in US political term; you'd be a perfect fit for some French left wing political parties!

Left wing all the way!

Louis,

[bmolsson]

When I came to America i learned the language and the culture, and didnt expect it to be any other way.



But you are still a Kraut..... ~:grouphug:

[bmolsson]

Why the center is left of me of course and the right of you.

Being against multiculturalism is very left Gawain. US today is getting more and more left to me due to the increased fear of multiculturalism, protectivism to the own incompetent labor force and the belief in solving everything with brut force. More Soviet Union is hard to get....... ~;)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

For sure it's a leftist position! It's about time Gawain find out what left really is! Get out of the US and stop thinking in US political term; you'd be a perfect fit for some French left wing political parties!

Ive spent years out of the US overseas thank you. I wouldnt fit in anything French thank you. ~;)


That it is wrong headed "leftyism." You are so into this moral righteousness craze. Now you are trying to cut multi-culturalism into segments so that you can still conveniently transfer those you consider lefty's "over there, you know with the bad guys."

Oh so its me whos saying theres more than one type of multiculturalism now. Damn man can or do you read anything here other than what I post. Its seem almost every post you make is aimed ay me. Im all for people coming here and keeping part of their culture but not trying to replace ours with theirs.

[Red Harvest]

Damn man can or do you read anything here other than what I post. Its seem almost every post you make is aimed ay me.


You see it that way because you flood the backroom with your blog regurgitations from the extreme right. Your sense of history is perverse. I couldn't call it history really, it is more of an effort to reshape history to fit your current political view. Since you are the lead proponent of this here, you will naturally find me taking square aim at the revisionist propaganda and yellow journalism that you post ad nauseum.

[Don Corleone]

Back on topic.... this has always been a problem with America, are we a salad or a stew. Plenty of cultures hang onto remnants of what they left behind. But where that culture conflicts with their new one (political ideology, accepted morality, even language) it was always expected that by virtue of moving to America, you were declaring you wanted to be an American, for better or worse.

In the past 30 years, we've moved away from that. We're following in Europe's vein, even though most Europeans would agree that traditionally, America had been the best culture in the world at welcoming immigrants. Now, instead of acceptance and blending, we have enclaves. We have English As a Second Language (which means you go through school without learning English, let's face facts). We have apologists who come out and say 'maybe honor killings aren't so bad, in the context of who these people are'.

I don't blame the Left for this. I blame America for this. We need to recognize what it was in the past that made us the best society at integrating immigrants and get back to that. This foolishness of Tejas, or Little Cuba, etc. needs to end. We all need to understand we're not African-American or European-American or Asian-American.... we're American.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Ive spent years out of the US overseas thank you. I wouldnt fit in anything French thank you. ~;)


Is that all you got as an argument?

It's not A US forum... And many leftie here are definitly people that are republican first (in the French sense): for them being French is a matter of sticking to ideals more than being born here. Those are the people who despise political correctness, quota policies and are frontline to ban headscarf from public places. They are very militant against hate speech, whether it's extrem right or religous. And yes, they are from the left, and they take "égalité" very seriously.

Louis,

[PanzerJaeger]

What I dont understand is why people come to America and desperately try and cling to their old culture, even trying to force it on other people. If that culture was so great, why did they leave it?

I mean, if you left italy because you were desperately poor and the country couldnt feed itself, why would you be so proud to be italian over in America?

[Goofball]

Alright, you're a chick. You're with an abusive guy. He beats the crap out of you, and you don't like it. You leave, and move in with a nice guy who takes care of you. But, every week, you decide to have an "Abusive Guy" festival, where you celebrate the, uh, Abusive Guy.Seems about right to me.

That's because you don't appear to truly understand multiculturalism.

Here's a better analogy:

Alright, you're a chick. You're with an abusive guy. He beats the crap out of you, and you don't like it. You leave, and move in with a nice guy who takes care of you. But the one thing the abusive guy did really well was make spaghetti sauce. Because spaghetti is your favorite food, you wrote down the abusive guy's recipe before you left. Now, every week, you decide to have a "Spaghetti" festival, where you celebrate your love of spaghetti and share it with others so that they too can enjoy it.

That's multiculturalism. Embracing the valuable parts of cultures, and rejecting the ugly parts.

[Don Corleone]

That's because you don't appear to truly understand multiculturalism.

Here's a better analogy:

Alright, you're a chick. You're with an abusive guy. He beats the crap out of you, and you don't like it. You leave, and move in with a nice guy who takes care of you. But the one thing the abusive guy did really well was make spaghetti sauce. Because spaghetti is your favorite food, you wrote down the abusive guy's recipe before you left. Now, every week, you decide to have a "Spaghetti" festival, where you celebrate your love of spaghetti and share it with others so that they too can enjoy it.

That's multiculturalism. Embracing the valuable parts of cultures, and rejecting the ugly parts.

You are vastly oversimplfiying the problem, or have you even been paying attention to where the bombers over in the UK were born?

As I said, every culture that has come to America has brought some of their legacy here and worked it into the patchwork quilt that is 'Americanness'. However, where your culture is incompatible with American culture, you have to leave that behind, or go back to it. Otherwise, you wind up with what we're headed towards and Britain unfortunately already has.... generations of people being born within your borders who DO NOT identify with the country of their birth, cannot speak the language, resent and loathe their fellow citizens.

I mean, don't take my word for it. Go read La Rasa's website!

[Goofball]

You are vastly oversimplfiying the problem, or have you even been paying attention to where the bombers over in the UK were born?

Don, I was using that analogy in response to one that also simplified the problem.


As I said, every culture that has come to America has brought some of their legacy here and worked it into the patchwork quilt that is 'Americanness'. However, where your culture is incompatible with American culture, you have to leave that behind, or go back to it.

Read my analogy again Don. It says exactly what you just did. The woman in my analogy embraced and kept the good part of her old culture (the spaghetti), while discarding the bad part of her old culture (the abuse).

I agree with you completely: if an inherent part of your old culture involves hatred and murder of those who practice the culture of your newly chosen country, then you have two choices: 1) Reject that part of your old culture that hates the new, or 2) go back to your old country and keep all of your old culture.

Multiculturalism wasn't to blame for the London bombing. If the bombers had been practicing true multiculturalism, not only would they have cherished the valuable aspects of their old (Muslim) culture, but they would have also embraced all of the valuable aspects of their new (British) culture as well.

Sadly, they had no intention of practicing true multiculturalism and did not do this.

[Don Corleone]

I don't have any problems with 'multi-culturalism' per se. Many people view it as synonymous with pluralism, and in that spirit, I think it's perfectly healthy. What would we be without St. Patrick's Day? I think the word 'multi-culturalism' gets used as a boogey-man for the real culprit, a fanatical devotion to moral relativism.

But in an effort to continue to drive your analogy well past the bounds of reason, what if the new boyfriend had serious issues with spaghetti sauce. The girlfriend clearly cannot understand the "Why" of why her new boyfriend is opposed to spaghetti sauce. Does that mean she's free to go ahead an continue making spaghetti sauce?

This isn't just about terrorism. It's a question of the fabric of a people. Other things that immigrants brought with them that they found not only perfectly acceptable, they couldn't understand why somebody would have an issue with them that had to be left behind:

female circumcision
eating dogs
polygamy
polyandry
incest
animal sacrfice (which actually, i believe falls under religiuos freedom...)
recreational drug use
excessive physical discipline of one's children
dueling
vigilantism (Mexicans in particular do not believe in going to the police)
prostitution (which again, in some cultures touches on religious freedom issues)

Do you see my point? It's not just about raising bombers. Sometimes, the behavior/attitude might seem relatively innocuous to the practitioner, but for their own benefit, and for those of people around them, there has to be a social contract that if it violates the cultural norms of your new society, it has to be left behind, or you do.

[ichi]

It's not about left being wrong...

It's about French being right ~D

You're all turning French ~:cool:

Louis,

PS: what I mean is: this is quite typical leftist Franch standpoint...

I thought I was turning Japanese :bow:

[Don Corleone]

I thought I was turning Japanese :bow:

I love that tune!

[The Stranger]

how can you ask from a kid that has been rejected by the society becuz he is not like them to identify with them. he chooses the one closest to you. not the one that doesnt likes him, its normal.

you guys all got smooth talks but do you know how it is to get discriminated. how painful it is to walk the streets and get the feeling that your not wanted, for christ sakes its also your country. youre born here and now you got some guys that say to you to get back to your country.

how can you ask that guy to identify himselfs with the ones that say he must get outa here. no never he'll say that he's one of m, if he's muslim he'll say he's muslim. if he's south-african he'll say he's south-african. why should he reject his culture to become like them, yeah he should embrace it, but also hold his own. he must get to a point where he doesnt feel turc or american but to a point that he feels human.

a girl i know once said

there is only one country: the earth
there is only one kind of people: the human
there is only one religion: love

once we get to that point everybody can be happy

[Goofball]

But in an effort to continue to drive your analogy well past the bounds of reason, what if the new boyfriend had serious issues with spaghetti sauce. The girlfriend clearly cannot understand the "Why" of why her new boyfriend is opposed to spaghetti sauce. Does that mean she's free to go ahead an continue making spaghetti sauce?

That depends. If, in your continuing analogy, the spaghetti sauce simply represents a harmless part of the old culture that is merely found to be distasteful (for example, when I lived in Saudi Arabia, it was considered very bad manners to touch people or eat with your left hand; if you did, children would laugh at you and adults would be disgusted, but you wouldn't go to jail for it) in the new culture, then yes, she is free to continue to making and enjoying spaghetti sauce herself, but she should not expect her new boyfriend to share it.

On the other hand, if the spaghetti sauce in your analogy represents something that is actually illegal in the new culture (i.e. forced female circumcision, carrying a sword on your waist, beating your wife or children), then no, she is not free to continue making the spaghetti sauce ever while living with him.

[Azi Tohak]

You can't eat with your left hand in Saudi Arabia?

Okay... time to cross another country off my list of places to visit...

Azi

[Goofball]

You can't eat with your left hand in Saudi Arabia?

Okay... time to cross another country off my list of places to visit...

*whispers*

Psst... It's because that's the hand you use to wipe your bum...

:toilet:

[Azi Tohak]

Thanks Goof. But that is really disturbing. And if PJ is right, then I can't blame them for not using their left hands to eat. Eww...

Of course my alternative is stabbing myself in the nose with a fork. Maybe that is why the kids would laugh at me...

Anyway, what was the topic again? ~;)

Ah yes...about spaghetti. Sounds good to me for supper actually...

Mmm... spaghetti...

Azi

[bmolsson]

polygamy


What is your problem with polygamy ?

[Papewaio]

What is your problem with polygamy ?

If you can accept your wives having more then one husband then it is a fair arrangement.

Polygamy makes sense in a society where the number of males are vastly outnumbered by females.

[Red Harvest]

*whispers*

Psst... It's because that's the hand you use to wipe your bum...

:toilet:

I use toilet paper. And I wash my hands afterward. ~D

Yep, there are quite a few cultural mistakes you can make.

[bmolsson]

If you can accept your wives having more then one husband then it is a fair arrangement.


I would have no problem at all, as long as they pick up their part of the bills for credit cards, house, cars etc. Experience says that there are nobody queing up for that so I am still the only husband..... ~;)



Polygamy makes sense in a society where the number of males are vastly outnumbered by females.


Not really. Every female should have the right to access to an alpha male. As it is nowadays, we are to few and therefore polygamy is the only alternative.
I am sure you have seen many of the beta males around these days so I am sure you understand...... ~:grouphug:

[Papewaio]

I'm an Omega male.

I will take one diamond to four zircons any day of the week.

[Del Arroyo]

Actually I kind of like the idea of polygamy... kind of makes me curious about Islam, though I do believe that it is the root of much terrorism and am therefore wary.

As far as the "fairness" argument-- screw being fair. Few women play fair. Especially not western (at least American) women. American men typically do play fair. Their lack of dignity sometimes appalls me.

DA

[Red Harvest]

Actually I kind of like the idea of polygamy...

Imagine 4 beautiful wives...all PMS'ing at the same time!!! ~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek:

Yes, it's a bit of a gratuitous shot, but female menstrual cycles are known to align (last I heard anyway--maybe it has been disproven.) PMS is real, too. I actually track it so that I know when to tread lightly around my dear lady. By the way, a bit of advice for the young'uns, if you are ever having one of those unexpected arguments with your new wife, and suddenly realize that she is PMS'ing...for the love of God and all things sacred: keep it to yourself and just cave in. Don't do what I did and say, "Oh...wait a minute...you're PMS'ing aren't you?" I "won" the argument on the spot (by "won" I mean she quit chewing on me), but it was truly a Pyrrhic victory.

[Papewaio]

The 3 phrases to know in this situation are:

Yes, dear.
No, dear.
It's my fault dear.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Or the boss just called and they need me at work ~;)

[bmolsson]

Yes, it's a bit of a gratuitous shot, but female menstrual cycles are known to align (last I heard anyway--maybe it has been disproven.)


Not at all...... ~;)

[The Stranger]

I'm an Omega male.

I will take one diamond to four zircons any day of the week.

doh!!! who wouldnt say that if he was you... ~;)

[Adrian II]

If you can accept your wives having more then one husband then it is a fair arrangement.

Polygamy makes sense in a society where the number of males are vastly outnumbered by females.Who says love, marriage or women should make sense? ~:handball: