best way to use cav [Archive]

Mr White

08-09-2005, 17:57

Ludens

08-09-2005, 18:26

By now I've fought quite some battles, with succes ( I'm playing on normal).
I read about how decisive cavalry can be on the forum and in the unit guide but I never really witnessed this. Sure I've routed some units allmost instantly but those were peasant type units, against all the other units a charge results in a prolongued melee.

Am I using my cav wrong, or is an instant rout more rare than I thought?
Head-on charges are best reserved for the heaviest cavalry only, and even then there are better ways to use them. Against decent spearmen or good-quality infantry standing in formation, a frontal charge (or even a flank attack) will not do much. The charge will be absorbed and then the infantry will overwhelm the cavalry by sheer numbers. Since cavalry are expensive, you are wasting both potential and money.

Cavalry are fast: you don't need to attack from the front; you can hit them in the flank or rear. Pin them with a decent defensive unit (basic spearmen can do this, but against more dangerous enemies you should use Sergeants or Saracens) and hit them in the rear. This will cause a massive morale penalty.

Even then the enemy might not rout immediately (unless they have bad morale), so for best results it is often wise to wait a little before trying this. This will thin and tire the enemy units, reducing their morale, so that when the horsemen charge in, they will rout. Remember: you can better afford to use a unit of spearmen than a unit of knights.

For advanced tactics, you can use horse archers to thin and tire the enemy, but this requires patience and a lot of micro-management.

Budwise

08-09-2005, 18:52

Have you seen the movie Braveheart? If so you remember the first battle scene where they did the heavy calv charge and all the horsemen on the British side died off.

Well, now think if William Wallaces group of Highland Clansmen were engaging the British and that same squad of Heavy Calv hit them from behind - think of how much Chaos and raw death that would cause.

Same thing here, sure you can use Calv for attacking the front line - I often do with Chiv Kn. but they are best used to cause the enemy to snap and run from hitting from behind.

ichi

08-09-2005, 23:25

Nice answer Ludens

Cav are best used as anticav, to harass missile troops, to flank, and to chase routers. As a last resort, I also use cav to plug holes in the line. But its never a good idea to charge cav headon into a unit of spears and leave them there to get poked.

One thing you can also do with cav is the cav tap. Charge a unit of cav into an enemy unit, and just at the point of contact pull the cav back quickly. This will kill a few men, but may also get the enemy unit to chase your cav, disrupting the enemy formation and perhaps getting the enemy unit where you can flank with other units.

ichi :bow:

EatYerGreens

08-10-2005, 00:39

What I'm about to suggest will not work against another human player.

Cav units of yours which have been allowed to come to a standstill somehow act like magnets for AI spears units, since they seem to fancy their chances with closing range and charging at your horses.

The likely scenario is that you've sent your Horse Archers to the end of their main line and are shooting up an Inf unit of theirs. Either the unit under fire or some nearby spears will head for your HA's to try and drive them off. Now, if you've positioned your HA's so their firing angle is 45deg towards the facing of the enemy lines, the spear unit will turn so that it will hit your horses square on. By turning like this, their unit is exposing a flank and if your Inf line is close enough to get to them quickly, your men will hit their flank and cause great damage.

Make sure your HA's switch targets to the unit which is closing on them, or they may fail to automatically skirmish away to safety, thanks to their current target being static and apparent blindness to a separate advancing unit which they've not been explicitly instructed to fire at. Missile units have good enough AI to self-select their targets and act autonomously but HA's are notorious for requiring a lot of micro-management precisely because they tend to attract several units but can only fire at one at a time. Skirmish seems to bo coded to mean 'retreat from targeted unit if it counter-attacks' but this leads it to ignore other units, so they can get surrounded and mobbed, if left unattended for too long.

As for Cavalry in general, if you regard them as no better at fighting than any other foot unit but lesser in number and thus more likely to lose in prolonged meleé where attrition rates are near identical, then you can see why it's a good idea to keep them out of fights unless and until the target unit is being kept busy in a meleé with another of your (foot) units. Hence only using them to attack exposed flanks or rear.

The only real advantage they have is speed of movement. They can traverse longer distances in time-critical situations, for example to rescue a unit of yours which is in trouble, or they can move into position to flank/rear an enemy quicker than the target foot unit can escape to safety, they can pursue a unit which has already routed and hit them from behind, they can quickly plug gaps in the line, as mentioned by ichi, in situations where a foot unit would take too long.

Pursuing routers is where cav can turn a marginal victory into a decisive one. Given enough room on the map, routed units may get a chance to rally and come back to cause more damage to you, even swing the battle back the other way where reinforcements get a chance to establish themselves in position. Pursuit keeps the routers running until they're either caught, killed or driven off the edge of the map.

Incidentally, when doing this, the animation shows them cutting routers down and killing them. If you take the trouble to review the kill/capture results for each unit and zoom to their final battlefield position to remind yourself who did what, you may find that the cav unit that you witnessed slaughtering loads of routers is, in fact, credited with few kills but a large number of captured prisoners.

So, if you send your cav into intense meleé situations, expect them to lose half of their unit strength in under 30 seconds, then rout away and play little part in the rest of the battle or even exit the map. Keep them in reserve and use them only to chase units routed by your infantry and expect to see them lose very few men but capture many prisoners.

An enemy archer unit left exposed because the AI has thrown every available foot unit into the main meleé action is just begging to be hit with your cav. Given the choice between flanking/rearing engaged inf and mowing down the archers, I'll go for the archers every time. My own archer units frequently finish battles with 60+ kills each, so I'm not going to give the AI that luxury. I usually see AI archer units cease firing and start running within seconds of me double-clicking on them to order a charge.

A head-on charge into archers is feasible because their speed gets them from the edge of archer range to contact so quickly that they can only get a few shots off plus fast-moving targets are that much harder to properly get the range and score a hit. Horses make big targets, so leaving them at a standstill within archer range will lose you many men/horses. Note that having mopped up an enemy unit in its entirety, your cav will come to a halt and await further orders. Keep an eye on them if more archers are nearby.

Del Arroyo

08-10-2005, 01:23

Heavy cav is GOOD at fighting, and will kick the ass of any sword-wielding infantry, especially if they get a nice charge... but they are expensive and few in number and vulnerable to missle fire so I like to keep them out of the way until they're really needed.

Sometimes I charge them a bit ahead of my main force if the enemy is routing, or running because they are all skirmishers, and this can lead to some high losses for my horses-- but the huge number of enemy killed and captured usually makes this a worthwhile sacrifice.

DA

littlebktruck

08-10-2005, 05:49

I'm truly terrible at army management, and my cavalry usually suffer most from it. I fought a battle tonight that was an extreme example. I couldn't find a good defensive position, so I took the best I could get, and, when I clicked the begin battle button, I moved my army to better (but previously out of range) ground. However, the enemy started quite close to me and I had to break some units off to dispose of the units attacking my front. In the meantime, the rest of the enemy army went around the bottom of a hill and went up to my right flank. They were attacking before my army was set, and I had to send in my knights to fend their entire army off. I got other units (FMAA, Feudal Sergeants) over as quickly as I could, and I did manage to send them fleeing eventually, but all of one of my knights units was killed, another went down to 4, and the third probably had no more than 15. While that was an extreme example, I usually have a problem keeping the enemy in front of me, and it falls to my cavalry, with their speed, to correct my mistakes.

ichi

08-10-2005, 06:20

Heavy cav is GOOD at fighting, and will kick the ass of any sword-wielding infantry, especially if they get a nice charge...

I respectfully disagree. There's too many variables, like the morale of the cav and swords, the terrain, their fatigue. Cav can hurt a good swords unit, but the 60 vs 40 factor and the stats play too big a role to say that HC can beat any sword unit. Put the swords on Hold Form and 3-4 ranks deep and they'll hold an equal florin cav then start to beat it.

ichi :bow:

Odin

08-10-2005, 13:01

I respectfully disagree. There's too many variables, like the morale of the cav and swords, the terrain, their fatigue. Cav can hurt a good swords unit, but the 60 vs 40 factor and the stats play too big a role to say that HC can beat any sword unit. Put the swords on Hold Form and 3-4 ranks deep and they'll hold an equal florin cav then start to beat it.

ichi :bow:

While I agree with your statement, I lean toward Del Arroyo's point more only because he does specify
especially if they get a nice charge

Thats the single biggest factor in the equation (specificly toe to toe with swordsmen). The charge tips the balance to the calvary IMHO.

As to the original poster, Cavalry units have one distinct feature that foot units (of any kind) dont, and that is speed. Granted they get tired fast when armored, but speed is the key element for Cavalry use IMHO.

Many times I have charged a lonely spear unit into a group of knights and flanked the skirmish and charged the rear to rout the enemy. IMHO thats the best way to use horse units. Unless they are heavy Chiv knights or Lancers, then charge !

Del Arroyo

08-10-2005, 15:54

ichi

08-10-2005, 16:56

Quite right, ichi-san, as far as the equal florins goes, but as I've so far played only SP, that happens pretty rarely ~;) All I can comment on is what I've seen on the battlefield, which is Heavy Cav bowling over sword infantry more often than not, but getting stuck on low-cost spears.

DA

Which is fair, you've prolly worked hard to pump up your cav, maybe built some Master Breeders, an armory or metalsmith, then placed the cav under a 6-star gen. The AI has a tendency to throw V0 FMAA, so you're gonna bowl them over.

A 40 horse V0 Chiv Knight at 675 florins will have a tough fight with a 60 man V3 FMAA (859?), headon.

Regardless, I go back to my original reply. I don't slam horses into the pointy end; first pin the unit with inf then slam it in the flank/rear with ponies, all the while shooting arrows into em

ichi :bow:

Mujalumbo

08-10-2005, 21:57

Speaking of pumped-up cav, who was that had a 30-valour Byzantine prince once? And how in the heck did that person get him up to 30v?!

I was playing BKB's mod, and one of my Armenian princes had 12 valour. That damned prince scared me, and he was on MY side! I fought a bridge battle, nothing special, some spears, archers, enemy cav on the other side. Just for the heck of it, I charged 'im in, just to see what he could do.

Well, what he could do is charge through a hail of arrows, rout some enemy spears, defeat the enemy general in open combat and send the entire enemy army fleeing for their lives. Single-handedly.

I don't even wanna think about what a 30 valour unit of Kataphraktoi could do.

antisocialmunky

08-11-2005, 02:36

I have to agree with ichi. Heavy cavalry is REALLY not great for beating it out with infantry in a fair fight. I don't like having to replace 2/3s of my cavalry after every single fight.

Roark

08-11-2005, 03:48

@ Mujalumbo: I think his name was Darth Andronicus... ~;)

Knight Templar

08-11-2005, 14:49

I tried in many battles, campaign and custom, heavy Europiann cav (chiv, gothic ) almost always beat any infarty with swords, including CMAA. However, as heavy can are expensive, I usually use them for rear are flank attacks.

https://img363.imageshack.us/img363/3472/530eo.jpg

Enemies were 100 archers, and 600 inf (FMAA, Militia Sergeants, and Feudal Sergeants)

ichi

08-11-2005, 19:26

In the campaign its not uncommon for heavy cav to roll up swords and axes with their initial charge; this is usually due to the fact that the players cav is pumped up while the AI's infantry isn't, plus the human player can hit a inf unit in the flank.

But, that's different from saying that HC always beat any swords. That's not a true statement. It depends on valor/morale, fatigue, upgrades, terrain, etc.

He's some examples. In this first one I control the V3 CMAA, cost 1229, against the AI Chiv Knight (@1147 florins). With the FMAA set on Hold Form they win

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/V3CMAAvV1CK1.jpg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/V3CMAAvV1CK2.jpg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

ichi

08-11-2005, 19:38

OK, so I controlled the FMAA and they cost more than the CKs, so lets switch it around. This time I control the Feudal Knights (V3W1 @ 962 florins) against the AIs V3 FMAA (cost 859)

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/V3FMAAvV1W1FK1.jpg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

The FKs, even with the weapons upgrade, lose badly, and I tried to get a charge on the FMAA flank. Gah!

OK so here's a V2 Gothic (2096 florins) against my V4 CMAA (2089, almost the same cost). The CMAA are set to Engage-at-Will

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/V4CMAAvV2GK1.jpg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

and the swords lose.

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/V4CMAAvV2GK2.jpg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

ichi

08-11-2005, 19:44

But, if you put the same unit on Hold Form

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/V4CMAAvV2GK3.jpg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/V4CMAAvV2GK4.jpg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

http://images5.theimagehosting.com/V4CMAAvV2GK5.jpg (http://www.theimagehosting.com)

So this time the swords win. I've found that swords do quite well against cav when set on Hold Form (notice I took them off Hold Form at the end, when there were only a few cav left, to finish them off)

My point is that little things can make big differences. Valor/morale has a huge impact, and it is better to understand the factors than to think that one unit beats another under any condition.

ichi :bow:

m52nickerson

08-12-2005, 03:16

Heavy cav is also go for intercepting littler enemy cavs trying to flank you.

CBR

08-12-2005, 05:54

Whats the point in buying heavy cav and then NOT use it for frontal charges heh

CBR

aleh

08-12-2005, 06:15

Alright, one of the funniest thing thing I've ever seen was a battle against the Almohads. Anyway, so they heavily outnumbered me, but overall the quality of my troops was better. Better morale, better armour. /But/ they had 1 unit of Ghulam Bodyguards(General), and the battle that I should have won, was cost by those crazy mofos. And what's worse they only had about 14 men.:D

Anyway, I tried separating them so my units could off them 1by1....I hid two units of hobilars in a forest, while the other three units I placed atop a /VERY/ steep hill. Anyway, for some reason, the General decides to go against those 3 units, and I thought it would be a slaughter. After all 120 hobilars charging downwards at 14 charging Ghulam, really, unless I -really- suck, no one should blame me.

So anyway, I take my eyes off of that for like a couple of seconds, only to find that within 10-15 , all of those units were wavering, and they lost about 10-15 men /EACH/....How is that bloody possible, I mean the guy was like 4-6 stars(I think), but still, it should be a slaughter. Anyway, when I lost about 50-60 men in those three units, they routed, and the guy proceeded to whoop everyone of my units.
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As to how I use my cavalry. One favoured tactics of mine is to charge(head on) the line of spearmen, and follow that unit of horse but either a couple of units of foot...Anyway, obviously the spearmen come after me, and at the last moment(or relative close) I pull to the side my horse, the spear usually follow. My footmen slam into their side, and then when the spear turn to face my foot, I charge the flank or rear(whichever) with that same unit of cav.

antisocialmunky

08-12-2005, 16:08

I've seen 8-9 star Kataphraktoi hack through 40% of my army before.

Pericles

08-13-2005, 00:42

Yup, those 8 star Kats are like a panzer division... ~:eek: