View Full Version : *OT* are these real?
i got a site, to read about some greek equipment. but are these genuine?
spartan spatha:
http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/ah2103.jpg
spartan infantry swords: (normal-officer)
http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/greeksword.jpg
http://hellenic-art.com/armour/sword2.jpg
shield
http://hellenic-art.com/armour/ah6119.jpg
http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/ah3990.jpg
http://hellenic-art.com/armour/ah3721.jpg
now the question si, if any of these things were actually greek/spartan/ever excisted i know teh last shield isnt real. it has a nice 'ol viking brass (center)
altough i liek the size of teh shield:
http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/spartanset.jpg
www.hellenic-art.com
Dux Corvanus
08-11-2005, 13:18
They're all obviously good reproductions, or heavily restored examples, since organic materials are rarely so long preserved, and metals -specially iron- are doomed by corrosion.
The second shield resembles strikingly one found in Vergina II tomb, and thought to be Alexander's one!
http://www.greece.org/themis/macedonia/images/aspida.jpg
The last blue shield looks of the Beocian style -with the big openings in both sides- and it's dubious that real shields with that shape were used up to classic times. They're more associated with Micenic culture and with Homer's epic art conventions -specially in geometrical Greek art -dipylon art:
http://www.koxkollum.nl/jaartallen/atticdipylonkrater.jpg
wow, nice pics..nice info.
but teh leather covered one (with teh boss on it) is pretty cleary not an aspis/hoplon right?
but my real curiousity is about the Spatha. i thought the spata was a roman cav-sword..(lengthy gladius, or so)
anybody info on teh swords?
how long was the spartan sword at Thermopylae? 80 cm? (including handle)
Dux Corvanus
08-11-2005, 15:17
wow, nice pics..nice info.
but teh leather covered one (with teh boss on it) is pretty cleary not an aspis/hoplon right?
but my real curiousity is about the Spatha. i thought the spata was a roman cav-sword..(lengthy gladius, or so)
anybody info on teh swords?
how long was the spartan sword at Thermopylae? 80 cm? (including handle)
As I told you, that type of shield was not really used by classical era Greeks. It's a Boeotian shield. Since it was the type of shield used by Micenics, and was very seen in arcaic art, later Greeks asumed it was the shield used by their mythical heroes, and hence, became an epic symbol. It was used to represent heroes, demi-gods, etc., as a symbol of military power in coins, and maybe in parades:
http://icon.stoa.org/albums/Greek-Europe/Thebes.jpg
Spatha, was, yes, a type of long sword used by Late Roman cavalry. Don't know exactly the kind of sword grinded by Leonid and his men, but the "officer" sword in the pics looks too sophisticated to be Spartan stuff -the severe Likurgan tradition didn't appreciate art and ornamentation, less in war matters- and the two last look too modern also, for early 5th century BC.
conon394
08-11-2005, 15:17
In the Classical period the Spartans famously used a very short, straight sword. I don’t know what length they were, but they are shorter than either the popular slashing ‘Machaira’ or the older archaic era hoplite slashing sword. So the reprodition seems relativly accurate in form.
They are dead wrong on the name though, the classical era Spartan sword was called the ‘Xiphos’.
yeah, they say that. here the full link http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/sword.htm
dux, you mean this shield:http://hellenic-art.com/armour/ah6119.jpg
i mena this onehttp://hellenic-art.com/armour/ah3721.jpg this is a fake?
Dux Corvanus
08-11-2005, 16:07
Mmmm, it's up to its size, which we don't know. If it is big, then it could be some kind of hoplon, but the design does not look Greek at all.
As if it is authentic, well, all that look replicas. Archaeological stuff almost never reach our times so well preserved, and organic materials usually rot and disappear in a few decades. Most times, all we have is rusty nails and other metallic parts.
and drawing and writings...
well, by fake, i didnt mean "actually 2300 years old" but more "they state it to be form 500 BC spartans, but is it so?"
Omegamann
08-11-2005, 16:55
Dux, I guess its clear that none of that stuff is genuin, but all are replicas.
As far as I know the romans and celts used shield bosses, while the greek aspis definately didnt.
The Boeotian shield is an obvious movie replica of the "Myrmidon" shield from the movie Troy with Brad Pitt, so I would not put too much fate in its autheticity.
The topmost sword looks a lot like a celtic bronce age desing, but could also resemble the short straight sword used by the spartans (as opposed to the falcata like kopis used by most other greeks)
The other two are very suspect, as the crossguard (top of the handle) wasnt used till medival times times.
Dux Corvanus
08-11-2005, 18:23
they state it to be form 500 BC spartans, but is it so?
I doubt it. Shape? Yes. But the design and the construction method looks suspicious.
conon394
08-11-2005, 19:22
Omegamann
The typical early/archaic era hoplite sword had a cruciform hilt, and the Machaira type swords had wrap-around hilts. Do you just mean the style of the hilt cross piece?
well, afaik teh mid sword is pretty much a normal hoplite sword, but i wodner form what time period, since it has no leaf-shape.
the "golden" sword looked a bit weird (very thin blade, and elaborate for a spartan)
the one I', curious abotu is the top one, the "spatha"
it looks rather weird, withotu a crossguard.
BTW, according to teh site, they are all 80 cm's long. but on other site's the spartan balde was abotu 16 Inches, wich is about 30 cm..
octavian
08-14-2005, 19:26
the "golden" sword looked a bit weird (very thin blade, and elaborate for a spartan)
well i am almost 100% sure that sword only looks that thin because of the way the light reflects off it. i have seen that sword at a number of weapons shops etc and the blade was just as wide as the sheath. as far as being spartan... i doubt it.
i mena this onehttp://hellenic-art.com/armour/ah3721.jpg this is a fake?
this is a very small shield...it's a shield like the ones, the phalanx-pikemen in rome use.
pezhetairoi
08-15-2005, 01:43
Except for the fact that the phalanx-pikemen in real history used the aspis, which was pretty longish and oval.
I'm sure the cross-guarded swords were not from the Spartan era as stated. Bosses were only included, afaik, to enable the fighter to use the shield to punch the opponent when the shield was held buckler-style i.e. from a handle in the centre, which is clearly not a hoplite/pezhetairoi grip. Hence it is unlikely the round brown shield is even Greek in origin. If you said Viking or barbarian alae/auxilia, that would be more believable. The motif on the boss is also unlike any Greek depiction I have ever seen before on mosaics or vase art.
As to that figure-eight shield, I would admit it as being historical (Troy notwithstanding) since they have qualified it with the statement that its design originates from 500bc, which is about right. Mycenaean-era shields have been uncovered that looked like figure-eights with two gaps in the sides so spears could be couched underarm in them without increasing target profile by virtue of a sticking-out arm. But we do not see this anymore with the onset of the classical age of Greece and the standardisation of the Greek military with hoplons, so the picture of that guy in the armour posing with this antiquated shield would be the equivalent of a soldier dressed in modern combat fatigues posing with a Welsh longbow.
conon394
08-15-2005, 03:05
Except for the fact that the phalanx-pikemen in real history used the aspis, which was pretty longish and oval.
The Aspis was the hoplite shield; the the smaller 'Telamon' shield was used by the Macedonian phalanx. Both were round.
BTW, according to teh site, they are all 80 cm's long. but on other site's the spartan balde was abotu 16 Inches, wich is about 30 cm..
80 cm is too long. “Arms and Armor of the Greeks” by A. M. Snodgrass puts the length of both the cruciform hand guard/swelling blade swords and the slashing Kopis/Machaira at about 55 cm. 30 cm would then seem about right for the Spartan Xiphos. 20 cm difference would seem to be about right for the kind of descriptions that the ancient literature provides.
Mr Frost
08-15-2005, 04:36
...16 Inches, wich is about 30 cm..
16 inches is about 40cm , not 30 ; there are 2.54 cm per inch .
Not that it really changes the meat of the thread , but useful to know . ~:cheers:
so the picture of that guy in the armour posing with this antiquated shield would be the equivalent of a soldier dressed in modern combat fatigues posing with a Welsh longbow.
A British Welsh Fusiliers Captain {Named Churchill of all things , he must had copped some ribbing} in the "Phony War" starting period of WWII whom was a champion archer and Longbow period enthusast actually took a modern Longbow to the front and in the spirit of discovery {or temporary insanity , you be the judge} actually used it successfully in combat on one occasion . The german he shot with it was incapacitated instantly and died from massive internal bleeding and shock very quickly .
Odd but true . ~:cool:
Narayanese
08-15-2005, 09:05
I saw some long (don't remember how, a meter perhaps, at leat more than half a meter, but a bit fragmented) and broad bronze swords at the museum in sparta many years ago. From what period are those?
A British Welsh Fusiliers Captain {Named Churchill of all things , he must had copped some ribbing} in the "Phony War" starting period of WWII whom was a champion archer and Longbow period enthusast actually took a modern Longbow to the front and in the spirit of discovery {or temporary insanity , you be the judge} actually used it successfully in combat on one occasion . The german he shot with it was incapacitated instantly and died from massive internal bleeding and shock very quickly .
Wow ~D
Romans in Babylonia (http://www.therionarms.com/pictures/romans_in_iraq.jpg) ~;)
Dux Corvanus
08-15-2005, 10:47
I saw some long (don't remember how, a meter perhaps, at leat more than half a meter, but a bit fragmented) and broad bronze swords at the museum in sparta many years ago. From what period are those?
Be aware that most ancient swords have lost completely the wood, leather and other materials that formed the handle to grasp them, and that a good portion of the metal blade was in fact embedded into the handle, so you must sustract at least twenty centimeters from that size.
Very long bronze swords wouldn't be practice, they would be too heavy and unbalanced to be manned with a single hand, and AFAIK, Greeks never fought on two-handed swords.
The blades in the first post are definately not spartan. The spartans favoured shorter stabbing blades like this Lakonian
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/hogkrazy/lakonian.jpg
The Machaira blade was a few inches longer, with a more exaggerated inside edge, it was supposedly able to cut through the bronze armour of the times with relative ease.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v257/hogkrazy/machaira.jpg
conon394
08-15-2005, 16:49
Narayanese
The Mycenaeans and Minoans did produce a long bronze sword that could exceed a meter in length. The weapon does seem to have been problematical though since many of the swords found appear have broke near the hilt. The weapon is more common to Minoan Crete but is also found in the Peloponnesian regions of Mycenaean Greece. The sword you saw was probably one of these.
Narayanese
08-15-2005, 18:15
Narayanese
The Mycenaeans and Minoans did produce a long bronze sword that could exceed a meter in length. The weapon does seem to have been problematical though since many of the swords found appear have broke near the hilt. The weapon is more common to Minoan Crete but is also found in the Peloponnesian regions of Mycenaean Greece. The sword you saw was probably one of these.
I see :bow:
pezhetairoi
08-17-2005, 05:36
Gee, Narayenese... I never knew Romans in Babylonia had machine-gun jeeps... ^_^ why'd you take the link off?
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