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Azi Tohak
08-11-2005, 17:52
Isn't it funny how Louis IV and I talk abou this one day... and two days later USAToday runs the same story?


Religion takes a back seat in Western Europe
By Noelle Knox, USA TODAY
DUBLIN, Ireland — "I don't go to church, and I don't know one person who does," says Brian Kenny, 39, who is studying psychotherapy and counseling at Dublin Business School. "Fifteen years ago, I didn't know one person who didn't."

Pope Benedict XVI expressed concern last month about Europe's weakening churches.
Giuseppe Cacace, Getty Images

Church attendance in Ireland, though still among the highest in Western Europe, has fallen from about 85% to 60% from 1975 to 2004, according to the Dublin Archdiocese.

While it is still illegal for a woman to have an abortion in this mostly Roman Catholic country, Health Minister Mary Harney made front-page news in July when she said birth control pills should be available for girls as young as 11 in some circumstances. And for the first time, according to church records, not one priest will be ordained this year in Dublin.

Mary Haugh, who has gone to Mass here seven days a week for almost all of her 79 years, is saddened by these changes. "It's a Godless society," she says.

Ireland is not an exception. Every major religion except Islam is declining in Western Europe, according to the Center for the Study on Global Christianity at the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Mass. The drop is most evident in France, Sweden and the Netherlands, where church attendance is less than 10% in some areas.

Last month, Pope Benedict XVI lamented the weakening of churches in Europe, Australia and the USA. "There's no longer evidence for a need of God, even less of Christ," he told Italian priests. "The so-called traditional churches look like they are dying."

The forces driving the decline include Europe's turbulent history, an increasing separation between the church and government — and perhaps ... most of all, the continent's unprecedented affluence.

"For most of history, people have been on the borderline of survival," says Ronald Inglehart, director of the World Values Survey, a Swedish-based group that tracks church attendance. "That's changed dramatically. Survival is certain for almost everyone (in the West). So one of the reasons people are drawn to religion has eroded."

Though many Europeans say they consider themselves Christians, far fewer actually attend services. One need only see the overwhelming number of gray-haired heads in church pews to know attendance will keep falling if something doesn't change dramatically.

Benedict, who visits Cologne, Germany, next week for World Youth Day, is expected to tell some 400,000 young people there that they are the future of the church. But the pope and other leaders of traditional churches admit that their struggle for souls in Western Europe is their greatest challenge.

DECLINE BY COUNTRY
A 2000 study by the Swedish-based World Values Survey shows nearly half — or more — don't regularly attend church in several Western European countries. percentage of people who "never" or "practically never" attend church in 14 democracies:

Country 1981 2000
France 59% 60%
Britain 48% 55%
Netherlands 41% 48%
Belgium 35% 46%
Sweden 38% 46%
Denmark 45% 43%
Norway 38% 42%
Spain 26% 33%
West Germany 23% 30%
Finland 15% 28%
Canada 22% 26%
Italy 22% 17%
United States 18% 16%
Ireland 4% 8%
Mean 31% 36%
Source: World Values Survey






The need to revive the Roman Catholic Church in Europe was among the main reasons Benedict, a German cardinal, was chosen to succeed Pope John Paul II. "Nobody is better informed than Pope Benedict on the European scene and the secularism of Europe," British Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor told the Associated Press shortly after Benedict was named pope. "I think all of us ... are concerned about this question."

One result: Fewer children

Among the most striking consequences of the decline of religion has been fewer children. The birth rate throughout much of Western Europe has fallen so drastically that the population in many countries is shrinking, indicating that women throughout Europe now routinely use artificial birth control, in defiance of the Roman Catholic Church's teachings.

"The biggest single consequence of the declining role of the church is the huge decline in fertility rates," Inglehart says. With fewer people entering the workforce, countries like Italy, Germany and France won't be able to maintain the generous welfare programs that have given most workers a lifetime of economic security.

The waning influence of religion also has brought a change in attitudes and laws on issues such as divorce, abortion, gay marriage and stem cell research.

In June, for example, Spain became the fourth country in the world to legalize gay marriage, after the Netherlands, Belgium and Canada. The measure was supported by more than 60% of Spaniards, according to a poll in December by the Center for Sociological Investigation. In the USA, where religion and church attendance are comparatively stronger, 11 states voted last year to amend their constitutions to ban gay marriage.

Europeans debate whether these changes are positive or negative for society. But it is evident people feel freer to make decisions within their own moral framework.

"The declining (church) attendance is really dramatic, but what is even more important is that the churches are losing the ability to dictate to people how to live their lives," Inglehart says.

The Roman Catholic Church still wields some power. In May, the Vatican helped defeat a referendum in Italy that would have made fertility treatments more accessible. The Vatican urged people not to vote. Because turnout was less than 50%, the results were invalid.

Nevertheless, slightly more than a mile from the Vatican, at the Sant' Anastasia church, there were just 28 worshipers at a recent Sunday Mass. The mostly gray-haired women sat in pews built to hold up to 400. "Now, it's only a wedding or maybe the funeral of someone important that can fill the whole church," says Giovanna Lutti, 79.

In 1900, almost everyone in Europe was Christian. Now, three out of four people identify themselves as adherents to Christianity. At the same time, the percentage of Europeans who say they are non-religious has soared from less than 1% of the population to 15%. Another 3% say they don't believe in God at all, according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity.

In 12 major European countries, 38% of people say they never or practically never attend church, according to the World Values Survey in 2000. France's 60% non-attendance rate is the highest in that group. In the USA, only 16% say they rarely go to church.

When the trend began varies from country to country. Wars and revolutions have played a decisive role in shaping faith in Europe. The spread of religion and the conversion of the masses often were bloody affairs — from the Crusades and the papal wars to the Spanish Inquisition and the Protestant Reformation. Uprisings against ruling religious powers were equally brutal, as was the 30-year conflict in Northern Ireland pitting Protestants against Catholics. That battle may only now be nearing an end with last month's promise by the separatist — and Catholic — Irish Republic Army to disarm.

When Gen. Francisco Franco seized control of Spain during the civil war in the 1930s, for instance, he worked with the clergy to spread a "National Catholicism" that enforced his social and political codes. Since Franco's death in 1975, Spain has become more secular. Socialist Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, elected in March 2004, has eliminated the one-year separation period before a divorce, authorized stem cell research and is working on a bill that would make religious education in public schools elective.

The government initiatives are a response to a changing society, says Luis López Guerra, the undersecretary at the Ministry of Justice in charge of religious and social affairs. "Spain's a Catholic country in the sense that virtually everyone born here is baptized a Catholic," he says. "But Spanish society has become much more open, more tolerant, more secular."

Not just the Catholic Church

Andrew Greeley, a priest, professor at the University of Chicago and prolific author on Christianity, argues that despite the drop in church attendance, Christianity is not on the wane everywhere in Europe. "Religion declined abruptly in England and the Netherlands. It is stagnant in West Germany, and it is flourishing in Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia," he says. "I get upset about the sweeping generalization about the decline in religion. Religion is always declining and always reviving."

It is not just the Catholic Church that has seen its numbers fall; some Protestant churches have been affected. Among the most striking examples is the Swedish Lutheran Church. For generations, "You didn't become a member when you were baptized. You became a member when you were born," says Carl Johan Lidén, a priest for the church in Stockholm.

In 2000, the church was separated from the state as part of the country's secular trend. People now can write to their local parish telling the vicar they no longer wish to be members and opt not to pay taxes to the church, which range from 2% to 3% of their income.

Although some 85% of Swedes are church members, only 11% of women and 7% of men go to church, the government says.

In Sweden, and throughout Scandinavia, the decline of the church also has been matched by a drop in the number of marriages. There is virtually no social stigma for unmarried parents. More than half of the children in Sweden and Norway are born to unmarried mothers, according to the European Union. In Denmark, it's 45%.

The separation between church and state in Europe is becoming standard. After vigorous debate, European leaders rejected any mention of the role of Christianity in a new constitution for the 25 European Union countries. Italy's nominee for justice minister of the EU, Rocco Buttiglione, was rejected because he was openly religious and condemned homosexuality.

Asked by USA TODAY about the consequences of the decline of religion, Buttiglione said, "If we ignore our pasts and try to create a Godless society where things like money or ambition or property are worshiped, then the society loses. ... It is a battle we are fighting at the current time."

The battle is more apparent in Western Europe, where a half-century of peace has meant economic and political stability. World Bank data show the per capita gross domestic product in Western Europe has tripled since 1980.

It's a different story in Eastern Europe, where the economies are weaker — and citizens less secure. That partly explains why religion remains strong in countries such as Russia, Poland and Ukraine. "For the masses, religion provides a sense of certainty in an uncertain world," he says. And since the collapse of communism and its anti-religious ideology, people in Eastern Europe are taking advantage of their new freedom to worship.

As Western Europeans have moved away from traditional worship, more people say they are "spiritual" rather than religious. Steve Hollinghurst, an Anglican priest, says, "It's very much what's appealing to people now — spirituality that works with my lifestyle. ... Faith and spirituality are now viewed as consumer products. And that's had an impact on the way people view institutional churches."

"Materialism has taken over. It has replaced God," says Haugh, the Dublin churchgoer.

But Kenny, the Dublin student, says he's merely typical of his generation. "I'm very spiritual," he says. "I speak to an energy force I call God, and I get answers," he says. "If you can get a spiritual connection without going to church, why go to church?"

Contributing: Geoff Pingree in Spain and Eric J. Lyman in Rome.

Is this true?

Azi

P.S I know this is a 'cut and paste odyessey'. I did it because USAToday makes you give them a little info, and I did not want to bother with that. If you don't like it, I really don't care.

Sjakihata
08-11-2005, 18:11
So you are asking if religion is declining in Western Europe? Yes, I think so.

Spetulhu
08-11-2005, 18:22
Finland 15% 28%. Never and practically never? I'd think practically never is what most of us do by only showing up for marriages, burials and baptisms. Exactly one of my friends goes to church on important church dates, and it's just in order to make his parents happy.

Byzantine Prince
08-11-2005, 18:26
Well unlike former generations, this one has a life. Why would people want to attend in a place where some talks about something you have never believed in?

Soon the world will filled with faithless fanatics like myself and we will prevail over others. Bwahahahahahahah! ~D

Kääpäkorven Konsuli
08-11-2005, 18:37
The religion is disappearing? Wohoo! :medievalcheers:
Too bad the victims of church aren't here to see this.

Ronin
08-11-2005, 18:44
i´ll drink to those news...good ridance ~:cheers:

Hurin_Rules
08-11-2005, 18:45
Looks like Nietzsche was right after all. God is dead, or at least in his final days.

scooter_the_shooter
08-11-2005, 19:05
Hopefully all the god fearing euros come to america after people like byz get in power and ban religion.


And that would make america's percentage of religous people go up and my nation could be a god fearing one again ~:cheers: And the atheist will hate it so much that they will go to europe and canada ~:cheers:

Sjakihata
08-11-2005, 19:09
Nice fantasy you have there Caesar010

scooter_the_shooter
08-11-2005, 19:14
yep I know it will nver happen but I can dream ~D

Kääpäkorven Konsuli
08-11-2005, 19:15
Hopefully all the god fearing euros come to america after people like byz get in power and ban religion.


And that would make america's percentage of religous people go up and my nation could be a god fearing one again ~:cheers:

They won't stay there long enough. If there is no unbelievers they can't force anybody to live like they. And soon they will be so bored that they must send crusade to free holy cities like rome from the hands of bagans.

Goofball
08-11-2005, 19:17
Hopefully all the god fearing euros come to america after people like byz get in power and ban religion.


And that would make america's percentage of religous people go up and my nation could be a god fearing one again ~:cheers: And the atheist will hate it so much that they will go to europe and canada ~:cheers:

Actually, Canada is quite a religious country. And believe it or not, we like our guns up here just as much as you guys do. Not that those are necessarily good things. You should visit sometime, then maybe you'd know at least a tiny little bit about your closest neighbor. Try coming in July, I'll take you skiing and we'll play some hockey on a frozen pond.

~:rolleyes:

And is it just me, or is there something inherently wrong with the phrase "God-fearing?"

I thought He was a loving, forgiving God. What's the deal with the whole fear thing?

Don Corleone
08-11-2005, 19:38
The expression comes from the fact that God is infinitely just, and you fear what you have coming to you.

BDC
08-11-2005, 19:39
Of course the Pope is worried that people aren't going to Church and paying subscriptions. He's losing power and influence. You can't have influence over a nation that doesn't care about you.

I think it's good, although some sort of moral influence will have to take its place, possibly a more modernised Church. Although I have no issues with the Anglican Church as it is, mainly because they don't seem to condemn anything (except gay bishops bizzarely). I can't stand to see some self-important idiot saying how everyone is wrong because his god says so. Mine say the exact opposite, what makes him any more right than me?

EDIT: The Great Spaghetti Being could beat Jesus. For example. ~:cheers:

KukriKhan
08-11-2005, 19:41
What's the deal with the whole fear thing? ~Goofball

Looks like one of the earliest attributions of the phrase is Homer. See here (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/god-fearing)

scooter_the_shooter
08-11-2005, 20:00
Actually, Canada is quite a religious country. And believe it or not, we like our guns up here just as much as you guys do. Not that those are necessarily good things. You should visit sometime, then maybe you'd know at least a tiny little bit about your closest neighbor. Try coming in July, I'll take you skiing and we'll play some hockey on a frozen pond.

~:rolleyes:

And is it just me, or is there something inherently wrong with the phrase "God-fearing?"

I thought He was a loving, forgiving God. What's the deal with the whole fear thing?'

I went to canada once I didnt like it. I got my head stuck in a fence at niagra falls. :embarassed:

Ianofsmeg16
08-11-2005, 20:09
They didnt include the Isle of Man on this...practically everyone i know goes to church on sundays...of course they don want to talk about it...its seen as uncool, but (even though i dont personally go to church) i think faith still gives us a sense of security that we cant get from our so called 'friends' or TV.

The_Doctor
08-11-2005, 22:15
I went to canada once I didnt like it. I got my head stuck in a fence at niagra falls.

LOL

I am putting that in my sig.

Louis VI the Fat
08-11-2005, 22:39
Is this true?I think it pretty much nails it.


But non-religiousness is not the same as anti-religiousness:

Italy's nominee for justice minister of the EU, Rocco Buttiglione, was rejected because he was openly religious and condemned homosexualityThis is not true. That he was rejected because he is openly religious is nonsense. He's not a martyr for Catholicism, despite what his followers want to believe. It was his attack on homosexuality that cost him his job.

After all, Christian-democracy is still the largest political movement throughout (western-)Europe.



The need to revive the Roman Catholic Church in Europe was among the main reasons Benedict, a German cardinal, was chosen to succeed Pope John Paul II.Reviving Roman Catholicism in Western-Europe?

Dream on.



Among the most striking consequences of the decline of religion has been fewer children. The birth rate throughout much of Western Europe has fallen so drastically that the population in many countries is shrinking, indicating that women throughout Europe now routinely use artificial birth control, in defiance of the Roman Catholic Church's teachings.I don't think this is correct.
Firstly, what about the parallel decline of birth rate in the Protestant countries then?
Secondly, I don't think one is a consequence of the other. I think the decline in church attendance and birth rate are both consequences of similar causes, i.e. the drastic social changes in postwar Europe.


About those 'cut and paste odyssey's': if you are trying to make a point, then make it and just add a link. If you've got an interesting article to share that you want to discuss, by all means share it
My two cents.

Papewaio
08-11-2005, 23:58
I think you will find female education is a more direct link with declining birth rates independent of faith.

Goofball
08-12-2005, 00:05
I went to canada once I didnt like it. I got my head stuck in a fence at niagra falls. :embarassed:
LOL

I am putting that in my sig.

Sorry, beat you to it...

~;p

Steppe Merc
08-12-2005, 02:16
I read an articale about this in Newsweek, and I was sort of disturbed at how nosy the Pope was in state affairs. I know I need to work at how paranoid I am when it comes to religous people in politics, but the Pope isn't even a member of most of the countries that he's talking about. If he was approaching it from a purely religous aspect, I'd still strongly disagree, but it seems to me he's trying to meddle in countries affairs in which he has no power over.
Or am I blowing this out of porportion?

Don Corleone
08-12-2005, 03:25
You're being overly paranoid. Beyond being a religious figure, he's a man, with the ability to form an opinion.

For Christ's sake, the Europeans here in the backroom have never once felt the slightest bit of hesitation about telling Americans not only about how we should manage our international policy, but how we should manage our domestic policy for that matter. Americans aren't much better, preferring to focus on foreign policy and telling sovereign European states how they should manage their foreign policy. I suspect the reason we don't speak more to their domestic issues is due to ignorance, not respect for their sovereignty.

Everyone thinks they have the answer to everything. It's how they use the audience they have that you ought to fear. And from our European friends are saying, the Pope has little to no voice at all anymore.

bmolsson
08-12-2005, 03:35
Interesting. If we see the rift between France and US, and then compare the church visits, it's rather clear.
I think that the secularisation of Europe is the real reason to the drift apart between Europe and US...... The US theocracy is also the main reason for the current tension between the islamic world. A more secular approach might give a better result....

Don Corleone
08-12-2005, 03:39
As usual, Bmolsson, you're right on the money. As Islamic regimes continue to grow around the world, we should respond to it here in the United States by banning Christianity. More than we already have.

Thanks for your, uhm, *cough* insight.

scooter_the_shooter
08-12-2005, 03:53
Dont mind him don read all of bmosslon(sp) and you will see he just doesnt like america...I saw him praise america once and that was for a policy that hurt us.

Papewaio
08-12-2005, 06:24
Would it be okay for the 'Secular' EU governments to turn around to the Catholic Church and tell the Catholic priests to start fathering kids to stop the population decline? ~:cool:

Krusader
08-12-2005, 06:42
Here in Norway it has declined but not so much as USAToday writes, at least not where I come from.

I myself like most of my classmates and generation don't attend church because some of its beliefs are not consistent with our own.
Plus, there's a sect called the Læstadianere (unsure of English spelling) which attends church and tries to impose their doctrine on the parish. They are very conservative and things like coffee, dancing, using cellular phones and watching TV are prohibited.

I consider myself an agnostic, but I'm still a member of the Norwegian Lutheran Church and I've been baptized and will probably marry in a church too.

Marriages are as before, just that more often than not their first child(ren) are born outside marriage, like myself.

bmolsson
08-12-2005, 06:47
As usual, Bmolsson, you're right on the money. As Islamic regimes continue to grow around the world, we should respond to it here in the United States by banning Christianity. More than we already have.

Thanks for your, uhm, *cough* insight.

You don't have to ban Christianity, just get it out of politics. Just as the main aim against any islamic country is to get islam out of their politics. Religion is a form of political powerstructure that is obsolete and needs to be eradicated......

Strike For The South
08-12-2005, 06:54
People don't go to church WHAT?!?!?!? :dizzy2: news to me where I come if you don't go you run the risk of having no friends (not saying its a good thing just no seems to like you as much)

Lazul
08-12-2005, 10:38
*jumps around* Yee we won! we won!

just kidding.

But seriusly, good news, maybe now people can think for themselfs! :bow:
Im an agnostic, and as far as I know, non of my friends are religius but nobody is really anti-religius, they just want religius people to shut up and dont interfer with their lifes.

What is on the rise here in Sweden tho is mysticism, wicca and such things, people seams to believe more and more in natural energies and spirits rather then some silly god you have to go around being afraid of all the time.

AntiochusIII
08-12-2005, 11:38
What is on the rise here in Sweden tho is mysticism, wicca and such things, people seams to believe more and more in natural energies and spirits rather then some silly god you have to go around being afraid of all the time.Hehe.. Probably superstition of some kind is always needed in a human being! Or may be it's just a Scandinavian neo-hippy generation.

Either way, the organized religion is all about power, anyway, so they are naturally upset at such developments.

el_slapper
08-12-2005, 12:40
People don't go to church WHAT?!?!?!? :dizzy2: news to me where I come if you don't go you run the risk of having no friends (not saying its a good thing just no seems to like you as much)

Reminds me when we tried to set up world-wide IRC chats.....Sunday afternoon(European time) was not possible because people in the americas were in church ~D .

The difference is that USA never experienced how evil can be the influence of the church upon politics. Obeying to the pope has led to countless wars, not counting the crusades. France revolted in 1789 as the mandatory tax for the priests was HUGE - and the first decision was to eliminate those taxes. Remember that religion was one of the reason your ancesters fled ol'Europe towards another continent(not the only one, but an important one). Americas, especially N America, have never been opressed by the church as Europe has been. So when came the time of choice, many did choose not to follow.