View Full Version : guns? good or bad?
PittBull260
08-11-2005, 21:09
they're suppose to be better but, archers do a much better job than the gun units when I play, which one's really better?
Procrustes
08-11-2005, 21:26
I had a disappointing battle using arqebuses recently, and someone suggested that I was shooting from too far away. I tried some more battles using them after that, and found that a volley from some arqs really can take out most of a unit of royal knights in one shot! The trick is to get really close - wait until they are almost upon you, or pin them with something else and then flank. The moral penalty they give is a huge advantage.
I also had a battle recently where my handgunners killed more than 200 enemy, though most of them died as well. I kept using them as flankers during a massive, confused melee - very effective. Again, close range made a huge difference.
Some things really suck about guns though....
- If it rains you are screwed - they turn into expensive clubs.
- They reload really slow - you may not get a second shot.
- You can't leave them on skirmish, or they never fire - their range is too short.
I like to use them now, but I generally never bring more than one gun unit as they are more of a novelty than something I can depend on. Also, careful on defense as you can't pick the weather - if I use them on defense I make sure I have something else I can swap them for if it's raining when I set up.
I got a lot better at using guns after playing a bunch of the "quick battles". I found that many of the QB's include guns - if you get one that doesn't just escape out and try the next one. I found the QB's to be an awful lot of fun - you get to use mixes of troops that you'll probably never get from playing solitare.
Arquebusiers do very well at V4A3, but there's no province that gives a bonus (at least as far as I can tell) so you have to build them in your best armor province and then stick them with a high command rating general.
Use them four ranks deep, set on Hold Formation. Don't let them battle archers or pavs, save them for cav and inf. They are deadly in MP when used late in a battle, when exhausted, depleted troops will rout under a volley. Try to place them on the flanks so you minimize friendly fire.
Especially deadly against cav (just wipe out Camels), they are also useful in pushing across bridges and into castle.
ichi :bow:
Azi Tohak
08-11-2005, 21:41
(Umm... if you can... I'd recommend editing the title... otherwise we might start a flame war.
Yeah, I know where we are, but will everyone else?
Azi)
PittBull260
08-12-2005, 02:53
(Umm... if you can... I'd recommend editing the title... otherwise we might start a flame war.
Yeah, I know where we are, but will everyone else?
Azi)
why change the title?
m52nickerson
08-12-2005, 03:04
The only gun unit I ever use is the Handgunners, You can flank a pinned unit, let them fire one shot then charge. If they kill one person with the shot the charge will rout almost any unit.
Except for cannons, I rarely bother with gun units. They're simply not worth the hassle most of the time, especially given the high levels of infrastructure required to train them in the first place.
If you just want some nice and simple killing power just get arbalesters. Guns take a bit of micromanagement to use properly.
CBR
tigger_on_vrb
08-12-2005, 11:23
Guns are fantastic where the enemy are confined to a small space ie bridge battles or just inside a gatehouse, apart from that I think they arent very useful.
I haven't made it to guns yet :embarassed: . I've had the game about 2
months and have mostly been experimenting- mainly HRE, Danes, French
and Spanish, trying to learn the game.
What is the fastest way to get to them, what all do you need? ~:confused:
PittBull260
08-12-2005, 18:52
I haven't made it to guns yet :embarassed: . I've had the game about 2
months and have mostly been experimenting- mainly HRE, Danes, French
and Spanish, trying to learn the game.
What is the fastest way to get to them, what all do you need? ~:confused:
u just gotta wait till a certain year (duno what year) and u'll have the tech to build gun buildings, which lets u make gun units and cannons
yesdachi
08-12-2005, 18:56
I haven't made it to guns yet :embarassed: . I've had the game about 2
months and have mostly been experimenting- mainly HRE, Danes, French
and Spanish, trying to learn the game.
What is the fastest way to get to them, what all do you need? ~:confused:
the invention of gunpowder. not sure what year but after that the buildings become available.
Procrustes
08-12-2005, 19:06
The easiest way to get them is to build a couple of inns. They will appear soon after 1205 - years before they become officially buildable, and you don't have to spend money on all the tech. (I've got a bunch of them in my armies now and it's only 1230).
Same goes for cannons and other gunpowder arty.
Arquebusiers do very well at V4A3, but there's no province that gives a bonus (at least as far as I can tell) so you have to build them in your best armor province and then stick them with a high command rating general.
ichi :bow:
Are they considered a peasant unit ilke they were in STW? If so, then there's a French province that gives a bonus to peasants IIRC (Provence maybe).
The easiest way to get them is to build a couple of inns. They will appear soon after 1205 - years before they become officially buildable, and you don't have to spend money on all the tech. (I've got a bunch of them in my armies now and it's only 1230).
Same goes for cannons and other gunpowder arty.
Super reason to have inns eh ~;) , I'll have to start 'liking' inns more.
EatYerGreens
08-12-2005, 21:13
Tech tree says 'gunpowder discovered c.1260'.
As we all know, they really mean the skill of making it finally leaks as far as Europe, having originated in China. :bow:
Minimum of Keep level in order to build gunsmith, then workshop, guild, master in successive castle levels upwards of that.
Minimum of Castle to build the Bell Foundry, which evolves into the Cannon Foundry in Citadel, Fortress.
If tight on funds, you'll likely end up building the cannon tech in the province with your most advanced fortification and ship-building facility combined, so you can get to ships with cannons but then finding long ship training times competing with your need for field cannon, so aim for at least two Citadels, one with a dockyard, in time for the arrival of gunpowder tech.
Gunner training centres could be placed just about anywhere at keep level, so as not to end up competing for building/training time.
littlebktruck
08-12-2005, 21:22
Are they considered a peasant unit ilke they were in STW? If so, then there's a French province that gives a bonus to peasants IIRC (Provence maybe).
I would guess that bonus only applies specifically to peasants, as UM have their own bonus province (Tuscany).
Ironside
08-13-2005, 07:48
why change the title?
Azi is commenting that for those that spends much time in the backroom, this title can be quite explosive. ~;)
Are they considered a peasant unit ilke they were in STW? If so, then there's a French province that gives a bonus to peasants IIRC (Provence maybe).
Province bonuses is very speciffic, muslim peasants doesn't even get the bonus.
And guns can be devastating. Had 40 gold armoured valor 5 boyars (bad heir ~;) ) vs 120 arqs.
The result? 2 boyars was the only survivors on the battlefield ~:eek:
Now I've upped the accuracy of arqs to 0.1 instead of 0.07, but still...
The battle went that I charged one unit, that actually stood thier ground. The other unit got point blank shoots and killed more than 30 boyars in those volleys.
I might have a couple ideas about guns, maybe you'll see them in the next ZXMOD release if I can get a bit of help... ~;)
kalifah of watton
08-13-2005, 10:53
I like the hand gunners because if it rains or they engage the enemy they turn into pretty decent swordsmen.On a chidish note i like the sound and the smoke they make,adds to the atomosphere of a battle.Historically however the longbow could fire faster than a hand gun/arqebus/musket as late as the battle of waterloo in 1815.But of course any idiot can be trained to use a rifle in a couple of weeks!
The Kalifah Of Watton...
Geezer57
08-13-2005, 13:08
I like the hand gunners because if it rains or they engage the enemy they turn into pretty decent swordsmen.
***STUFF DELETED***
But of course any idiot can be trained to use a rifle in a couple of weeks!
I too like Handgunners for their not-insignificant melee abilities. Once had a Handgunner-heavy army tackle one full of Order Footsoldiers - normally that's suicide. But with the morale loss from preliminary volleys, and the fact that the OFS chose to fight in the trees, it turned into a major Handgunner victory.
I'd agree with your last statement if "musket" were substituted for "rifle". Training a truly competent rifleman is not a quick or easy chore! But even with muskets, constant drill was required to keep reload times to a minimum, which is how the English army in Napoleonic times kept their edge.
Nope id agree with 'rifle' any idiot can use one of these, im a prime example ~:)
well, archers are wayyyyyyyyy better. also, archers suit the TW series better.
I have attempted to use Arqs quite a bit. On bridge battles they seem to be decently capable, mostly because of the morale hit. Arqs are hit or miss though. They don't kill many enemies, even when you have a whole army of only Arqs, save for one melee unit to block the bridge. They can cause some nasty routs, depending on the enemy. But an equal number of English Longbowman(or other good bowmen) can not only rout the enemy but kill them by the dozens, if noy hundreds(I liked to use about eight English Longbowmen on bridge battles, three units deep on each flank and two behind the melee troops. Stagger their fire so they don't run out of ammo too quickly. Devasting against the AI when there is only one bridge and they lack siege).
The value of firearms, in MTW, is dubious. The Handgunners occupy a decent niche and, if you really want to, Arqs can be used to shoot pinned units. But archers are more reliable in their performance.
But of course any idiot can be trained to use a rifle in a couple of weeks!
You can be trained how to use a rifle, or sword, or bow, in one day. But being trained to use them [I]well takes decades. Few bowmen start out being able to accurately and consistently hit a target at 200 yards, the same is true for a rifleman. The rifle is easier though.
antisocialmunky
08-13-2005, 18:43
Yes, there's very little reason to use gunpower when you have Longbows. ~D
Gotta say I'm just learning with guns but I gotta few Merc units of them and gave them a go. Here's an example. . . There is a unit of Armoured Halberdiers coming up the hill, I think I got maybe 2 volleys off at a distance maybe doing 1-2 casualties each, now the pic shows the last volley they got off just before engaing in melee. They killed 12-13 guys at point blank range. ~:cheers:
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/Nimwan/MTW/Arqs.jpg
This caused them to start to falter and after about 20 secs of fighting they started to flee, probably helped by the Huscarles I was just about to threaten their flank with.
Now we all know halbs don't have the greatest Morale, but I think the preliminary volleys and the final volley inflicted some pretty hefty negative morale. I may start to use them more. ~:handball:
antisocialmunky
08-13-2005, 21:25
Gunpowder is a one time -6 if a unit gets killed I believe. That and a -2 from 20% casualties you managed to inflict.
Cool pic mr BAD! ~:cool: Looking forward to guns in my HRE campaign.
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