Has any one observed these ?

[kiwitt]

I have observed a number of things of late.

1) Being "in-debt" is now a normal state of affairs for indivduals, businesses and whole countries.

- People are always wanting a bigger house, car or latest gadget and will go "in-debt" for it. Rather than saving up for it.
- Companies raise loans to buy other companies, then pay of these loans with shares in the company itself.
- Countries are permanently "in-debt" and all owe money. The US owes to China and others, Africa owes the West and the West owes to the banks, etc.

Only the banks get richer with all these paying interest.

2) People are distracted by "Sport", "Gossip" and other trivia, while Laws are being made and signed into lawbooks, without full public discussion as to implications. i.e. Kyoto, GATT, GATS, "Patriot Act"-inspired laws, etc.

- NZ signed the Kyoto Agreement because they thought they woul make $500M, now due to incorrect assumptions of the actual details, we end up having to pay $500M, A billion dollar mistake.
- Full details of the "Patriot Act" type legislation was not fully public discussed in countries, before it was implement. It was just said we need to put them in for "security" reasons.
- GATT and GATS contain lots of sections that impact on our lives, by forcing "privatisation" of "essential" services, e.g., water, power, telecommunications, health and education.

3) Create a state of fear in society, so that laws will be accepted, that ease control of individuals.

- See the moves to establish ID cards
- Finger-Printing of all Passengers
- I even saw someone selling barcode tattoos as a "fun" thing

While some will say, "Those with nothing to hide, have nothing to fear". eventually we will come to expect that all this is normal

--- My view ---

I have looked at various conspiracy sites, and they all say that there is some "huge" conspiracy behind the scenes, to create a so called "new world order".

I find that hard to believe that such a conspiracy exists as the planning and work involved would be huge. Some suggest that a lot of the people doing the actions are following some guiding principles and that no one group really has a full view of what is happening.

Some key phrases from the "Protocols of Zion" I have read. There could some truth to these lines, if someone were to look at what is happening in the world and in the last few decades at least.

" ... the best results in governing them are attained by violence and terrorisation"
" ... and the new authority merely fits into the place of the old already weakened by liberalism."

"Men in masses and the men of the masses, being guided solely by petty passions, paltry beliefs, traditions and sentimental theorems, fall a prey to party dissension, which hinders any kind of agreement even on the basis of a perfectly reasonable argument"

"Before us is a plan in which is laid down strategically the line from which we cannot deviate without running the risk of seeing the labor of many centuries brought to naught."

" ... we have set up the aristocracy of our educated class headed by the aristocracy of money."

"Our international rights will then wipe out national rights"

"The part played by the Press is to keep pointing our requirements supposed to be indispensable, to give voice to the complaints of the people, to express and to create discontent."

" ... all the States of Europe will be locked in its coil as in a powerful vice."

" ... the people have fallen into the grips of merciless money-grinding scoundrels who have laid a pitiless and cruel yoke upon the necks of the workers."

"We shall regulate mechanically all the actions of the political life of our subjects by new laws. These laws will withdraw one by one all the indulgences and liberties which have been permitted"

"Capital, if it is to co-operate untrammeled, must be free to establish a monopoly of industry and trade: this is already being put in execution by an unseen hand in all quarters of the world"

"Therefore we shall establish show institutions which will give eloquent proof of their benefit to progress."

"To multiply to such an extent national failings, habits, passions, conditions of civil life, that it will be impossible for anyone to know where he is in the resulting chaos, so that the people in consequence will fail to understand one another."

"In place of the rulers of to-day we shall set up a bogey which will be called the Super-Government Administration. Its hands will reach out in all directions like nippers and its organization will be of such colossal dimensions that it cannot fail to subdue all the nations of the world."

"We shall soon begin to establish huge monopolies, reservoirs of colossal riches, upon which even, large fortunes ... will depend"

"In every possible way we must develop the significance of our Super-Government by representing it as the Protector and Benefactor of all those who voluntarily submit to us."

I can continue quoting from these Protocols, but from above you can see that some phrases can be applied to what is happening in the world today. I can even see that a lot of "conspiracy theorists" will see this as a basis for their own research.

However, actually finding people who are behind the scenes would prove difficult. Some have suggested that there are "13 Families" (Rockefeller, Rothschilds, Kennedys, Bushs, etc.). Others have suggested a "Committee of 300", of which the "Bilderbergers", CFR, RIIA, Club of Rome, Round Table, etc are a part.

I have resolved that even if these "theories" are true, there is not much we can really do about. Therefore we should only really care about our nearest and dearest and keep our head down.

[Papewaio]

Look at the shambles the UN is in.

Or how slow to act any large business is.

Coordination of that kind required just doesn't exist. Most companies have a hard enough time getting out the company mission statement let alone living up to it.


1) Being "in-debt" is now a normal state of affairs for indivduals, businesses and whole countries.

Those with the ability to think more moves ahead in life like in chess will do better. Some debts (those that create more wealth) are a positive thing to have, just most people are more interested in buying toys.


2) People are distracted by "Sport", "Gossip" and other trivia, while Laws are being made and signed into lawbooks, without full public discussion as to implications. i.e. Kyoto, GATT, GATS, "Patriot Act"-inspired laws, etc.


I have resolved that even if these "theories" are true, there is not much we can really do about. Therefore we should only really care about our nearest and dearest and keep our head down.

So your solution is to head back into the herd. I would suggest buying investments in:


- See the moves to establish ID cards
- Finger-Printing of all Passengers
- I even saw someone selling barcode tattoos as a "fun" thing'

If you believe in the New World Order, you might as well own a piece of it. ~D

[Tribesman]

Only the banks get richer with all these paying interest.
thats business , kiwitt your country has (in the main) fared well , when it es turn bad ,do not rely on th banks ()unless you are buying up all the property that tey cannt hande . The banks rarely lose , but you can take dvantage of their writr-offs .

[Spetulhu]

1) Being "in-debt" is now a normal state of affairs for indivduals, businesses and whole countries.

- People are always wanting a bigger house, car or latest gadget and will go "in-debt" for it. Rather than saving up for it.


I don't know about your wages, but I pull in ~25,000 € before taxes. Saving up for an apartment wasn't really an option if I wanted to buy before I'm 50.

The government deserves a few good kicks in the groin for this anyway. They've done nothing to keep people away from the south of the country. On the contrary, the govt wants everything centralized to the capital and surroundings. So every day there's hopefuls moving south looking for work and needing a place to live. The only way I could buy an apartment at a reasonable price is to move 500 km away from my home town! Capitalism coupled with stupid government sucks! :furious3:

[Samurai Waki]

I have a secret that every man must know, if you plan on being rich you must never be in debt

This means buying only what you can afford it hard cash, never take bank loans or anything. Within 10-15 years (if you can manage it) and you handle your money well you can be a quite wealthy person. This is what my dad did to get rich and it still holds true today in the US, I remember when I was a little kid we lived in a 2 bedroom apartment and had 1 car a 1971 Buick Saber. He saved up enough money that he bought real estate or undeveloped land really cheap, and predicted that the market would go up drastically in the upcoming years, he invested 200,000 USD in Undeveloped Property, when I turned about 7 years old his property value went from 200,000 to 1.1 million USD, he then reinvested it into undeveloped property elsewhere, and when that property went drastically up he sold it again, eventually doing this process over and over again and he is now worth somewhere in the range of 80 million USD.

[PanzerJaeger]

Real estate investment is the way to go. The only problem is you have to have a chunk of money to start with..

[Productivity]

I have a secret that every man must know, if you plan on being rich you must never be in debt

That's simply not true. It's to never be in the debt, unless the debt has a positive net present value. Simply stating that debt is to be avoided at all costs is stupid, and all it will do is retard growth.

@PJ - That's not true either. The real estate market is just as variable as any other market. You will never have a "perfect" market, market forces will see to that.

[bmolsson]

You will never be rich if you don't borrow money. Business and lending is all about risks. You take a higher risk, you get a higher return.
You should never borrow to consumption, since it doesn't give any return. Investments on the other hand do give a return. When you buy a house, you do so to lower your cost at retirement, you accumulate wealth that you can live off in the future. If you buy a car to get to work, then you have made a investment. If you buy a new super-duper digital TV set on credit, then you not only waste the money for the purchase, you will spend a lot of time with no revenue in front of it.......

Real estate business is mostly about speculation. Actually, you can do a lot without any money, but you can lose huge money if you are not careful. Last weekend in Sweden, the market values plummeted due to a stupid speech from the prime minister, which raised the interest rates. Anyone with high lending would take a real beating on that one.......

[PanzerJaeger]

@PJ - That's not true either. The real estate market is just as variable as any other market. You will never have a "perfect" market, market forces will see to that.

In my experience real estate almost never loses value, unless theres a catastrophic variable that the buyer doesnt know about- such as it having a chemical dump on it or something.

Sure some property will grow greatly in value, and some will only slightly grow, but it almost never goes down in value.

My father has been very successful buying and developing land. Hes told me that even if it turns out the land isnt worth developing on, if you hold it for a little while, you'll make money on it.

[Samurai Waki]

PJ is correct. It is estimated in about 5 years that land value is going to take a major dive, including the rest of the US and world Economy. So my dad is only doing small time business. However, as you mentioned being in debt isn't totally bad, being 2k-20k in debt (as most college students will be around that margin or greater) is still manageable, but debt can indefinantly retard a business ventures growth. Debt is not a good thing whatever you may tell yourself. However, keeping your money in the hands of banks IS a good idea, the interest of your money being impounded in the bank can triple your funds quite quickly, the more money you have in a bank the more interest it gains. of course once you think you have enough it's always a good idea to take whatever Interest you gain and store it in a Suisse Bank Account or one that stands almost absolutely no chance of going bust. Real Estate investment is a good market to get in if you have a keen sense for growth, I however, lack that scent for the most part. My Future endeavors will not be situated around the business world as I find it EXTREMELY boring.

[AntiochusIII]

However, one must take into account between the bank's interest rates and inflation. Though the number may increase through interest, the actual value may, in fact, decrease. Nonetheless, banks are still the best places to put your money in for whatever purpose.

Debt is necessary for someone without a starting capital to...well...start off a business in a regular manner. And most businesses don't wait around saving money to expand, they rather take into account opportunities, the company balance, the economy, etc, and invest/expand their businesses as when things would be profitable and they use the money from the bank to do so.

Real estate, in my opinion, is a long-term one and is safer (as businesses could be) than most other markets out there. Lots of people get rich by it.

[Productivity]

I'm not trying to kid myself - debt can be an awful thing to have if you let it get out of control. However, it is sometimes extremely useful, even necessary. If it adds value and you understand the risks/returns involved, then go for it. But debt for personal consumption is definately not worth it.

Real estate isn't the miracle market you are making it out to be. Market forces will stop that ever happening - if it was so easy to make money out of real estate, do you seriously think everyone wouldn't be trying it? Infact this reguarly happens - housing is in a boom at the moment yes, but it will come down. We have hit the stage where people are investing in real estate not because of the money it will earn, but simply to be in real estate, in a similar way to what happened to .com stocks, where people were investing in assets that were expected to appreciate, not by virtue of any cash flows, but just because they were .com stocks. This sort of growth will allways come down.

If you want a real life example, I'll give you one from my city. In the early 90s, there was an apartment boom. People started getting onto it, buying land to put apartments on, building apartments etc. ~10 years later that investment is worth 1/10 of it's original value.

True, in the long run you'll allways make a return on real estate. But that's true for just about every market that exists. It's hardly unique, in that sense. True, there are individual investments that will yield a good return, but that's the same for any market as well.

[Samurai Waki]

Well obviously one without a keen sense for business isn't going to prosper very well like myself. When it comes to money I'm rather dull and unimaginative, good at accounting, but thats about it, I was not born with a Silver Spoon in my mouth like my dad was. He's bought out and has seen more competitors drown in the same market. Real Estate is NOT a sound business venture, I know that, like any other consumer product it is based on supply and demand, if you have the foresight to see an area quickly boom (like in most Rocky Mountain States) he bought a bunch of land really cheap, watched it grow, and now is watching it fall drastically. He had the good sense to detect it where I wouldn't have. The Apartment boom also follows along the same line, in my hometown there was a lot of apartments built, too many in fact, at first they were charging around 1000 USD per month for rent on a 2 bedroom apartment, now because there is so many and not enough people interested the price has more than halved in some places.
As far as banks go I did have a short conversation over MSN with my dad about it, and the way he explained to me is that sometimes "debt" can be good, it helps propel the economy and keeps banks stable. The Inflation and deflation factor is something that most young entrepeneurs have to worry about because inflation makes the value of the dollor less and deflation makes it worth more (like you didn't already know that), however, debt isn't something a million dollar corporation wants at all, if you have millions of dollars in investments and have debt, it generally means you are losing more than you are making. The Common Consumer (i.e. ones who do not have businesses) almost always have debt, generally to banks, who in turn take the debt and put a share of the interest into the saving accounts of people with large amounts of money stored in that bank, so the whole idea of capitalism via banks means while the poor get poorer, the rich get richer. I should have mentioned that my dad no longer runs his business and is in fact retired, he lives off the interest compounded in his bank accounts accumulating something like 2.1 million per year, while my older brother runs his business in proper. And my Older Brother is a much better businessman than I could ever hope to be. (Hence I am going to college to study Social Anthropology)

[Productivity]

Most of that's ok, but I think you are still getting hung up a little over debt.


debt isn't something a million dollar corporation wants at all, if you have millions of dollars in investments and have debt, it generally means you are losing more than you are making.

Plenty of large companies have debts. Have a look through their balance sheets, you won't find one without some form of liability (although most will be short term, accounts payables etc.), and further to that, most will have some form of long term liability.

[Al Khalifah]

Only the banks get richer with all these paying interest.
This is why the high ranking members of the so-called New World Order are believed to be financial leaders in banking. Look at groups commonly associated with these conspiracies:
The Knights Templar were the first international bankers.
Jews were the only group in Europe permitted to lend money in the Middle Ages.
The Swiss and their neutrality in recent times, has caused them to become a great banking nation.

The banks are powerful because having someone in your debt puts them in your control. Also, if you are lending people money and then getting it back with interest, you are essentially making money for nothing.

[Productivity]

Ah no, you aren't making money for nothing.

At it's most abstract, you are letting someone else have more consumption now, in return for them lettign you have more consumption later.

Arbitrage however is making money for nothing.

[Al Khalifah]

Arbitrage however is making money for nothing.
Ah the merchants, another group commonly associated with conspiracy.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Just an interesting question - supposing any secret society would be large enough to take over the world and had plans for it, and did it. What would they do with the world? I've always been wondering that.

Anyway, back on topic: many bad things go on in the world, and it's likely some parts of it come from secret organizations - we know of the Cosa Nostra and other mafia organizations etc. It's unlikely the Cosa Norsta are the only ones. Whether or not a huge world-wide conspiracy of any kind exists, is pretty unclear. Not likely, but not impossible either. That in itself doesn't matter, really. What matters is that mass-media is by their choices of news, and ways of presenting them are giving a false view of reality and are promoting their own ideals. The many connections between mass-media and politics are dangerous. Now it doesn't matter whether it's a world-wide conspiracy or several different groups with different interests are fueling this development and other dangerous developments like the globalization and centralizing of all power to one unit, as well as the states and individuals always being indepted to corporations. What matters is that those things happen, and if such things, that makes it easier for anyone with the ambitions to take control over the world or parts of it, happen, it opens the path for any type of international dictatorship. Whether those that create it will be the ones to benefit from it, or if others will claim that power position that this opens up, is impossible to know.

The easiest way to find out whether any conspiracy exists, that is large enough to succeed, and that is constantly trying to do stuff of these kinds, is to start leading opposition against these bad ideologies (regardless of who is responsible for them), and see who protests against requirements for basic human rights and security against dictatorship in the systems.

We know these things have to be fixed:
1. politics connected to mass-media (Berlusconi is a know example, and other mass-media also seldom give a neutral view)
2. the spreading of fear everywhere. Huge groups of people commit suicide because of the unrealistic requirements from jobs, education and the opposite sex, and of those who don't commit suicide, many get problems both with psycologoical and physical health.
3. the debt of nations and individuals to corporations.
4. the increased use of surveillance of individuals and groups.
5. the increased rights of police, military and government to capture and punish people without going through an official court where the accused is tried.
6. the many wars
7. starvation
8. it's nearly impossible to start a new political party. If you manage to do the formal paperwork required, you also need money to register the party name and stuff like that, and if you have that, you'll fail because mass-media won't show one trace of you, so nobody will know you exist. In order to make the necessary propaganda, you need billions of dollars, and if you, against all expectation, get hold of that much money, you'll still fail because nobody dares to vote for you - they're not sure you'll get more than 50% of the votes and therefore are afraid their vote is thrown away - it feels better to vote for the leading left/right party in order to avoid getting right/left politics, whichever you dislike most. Therefore, it's nearly impossible to start a new political party, giving too much power to the existing ones, and enabling them to become corrupt without losing power. Unfortunately, they can continue to grow in corruption like that until extremistic populists arrive, and by having a system where 99 percent of the ideology is non-corrupt and 1 percent involves mass-murder etc., they can get to power. This system, that makes it too hard to introduce a new political party, is therefore the best way of making the nazis incident repeat itself again.
9. environmental problems - these have now grown to a level where, provided that population is constant, we can't give the entire population their basic needs (like food and shelter) without systematically for the future destroy the possibilities of feeding in the future in a way so that the amount of people the world can feed systematically decreases. This means - either condoms and Chinese style children limitations today, or mass-death in one hundred years.
10. bad history education in schools. Very few people can draw parallells to history. For example, many people think conspiracies and attempts to take over the world are usually very successful. That's because they only read about the roman empire and Genghis khan. The vast majority of conquerors have prepared for the destruction of their own country half a century after their conquests, something that wouldn't have happened if they hadn't conquered innocent competitors. This, and many other things, gives people a false view of history, and makes it impossible for them to react early on no. 1 to no. 9. The truth is that all conspiracies or conquest attempts end with defeat, but always not until after they've caused extreme damage in killed humans and so on. Only if the stupidity in the systems is fixed early, can this damage be avoided. However, not enough people react on these problems until they've grown so large, and the power of the oppressors have grown so large, that it's impossible to quickly dispose of the unworthy, dishonorable leaders, until after a very long time of secret conspiring and several rebellions.

Regarding conspiracies, it's unlikely that most of these things above no.1 to no.9 are caused by any same secret society or anything like that. Many of those developments in the short term benefit individuals and groups of professions, which means normal individuals are probably by open actions responsible for these developments. However, the tragical thing is that every time this happens, it only leads to the people seeking benefits being defeated, often getting their sons and daughters killed, but not until after killing loads of others. The problem as I see it, is that people have forgotten their natural instinct to help their children survive, because only by that instinct do people realize that it doesn't benefit them to do bad stuff in order to in the short term find personal gain. And that's the foundation of the systematic destruction of humanity, that is going on and has been going on for centuries. The problem is, that they've made society so complex that they can't see the perspective of history, and people - individuals rather than secret conspiracies - keep destroying earth even more just because they don't understand that they're hurting themselves, and their followers. This effect is even more problematic when earth population is so huge that offspring must be limited. Who will care about future generations if they don't have children themselves? Another problem is that the instincts to preserve the offspring don't come strongly in effect until you're old enough to have gotten your first offspring, and considering that society is built in a way that makes it nearly impossible to have children before 40 years of age, this mean a great deal of the voting and ruling don't care a shit about children.

I'll say this to all who do bad stuff as individuals or as conspiracies or open lobbying groups: life is about making your DNA molecule structure keep replicating itself and surviving. A tiny, little invisible set of chemical elements, they all look the same to a human eye even if you use a microscope! Exactly your DNA molecule will never exist again, because it's mixed with that of whichever partner you choose. Therefore, you'll get nearly an as good result if your brother, cousin or any other relative gets an offspring, as if you had gotten one. In fact, humanity will keep changing so much, that over the years, it will barely be recognizable whether one of your heritage, or any other individual that is a homo sapiens, got an offspring. In the end, you are victorious as long as homo sapiens keep existing, but when homo sapiens cease to exist, you have lost. All your instincts have been created just for this one reason. Only your reasoning thinking is fooling you, if you think otherwise. Over time, humanity will change, because environment changes. Only the best adapted will survive. Those who aren't adapted can only continue to live by pressuring themselves to do things that require a struggle involving violence, conspiring and intrigue in order to get an offspring and to get power, which they can only hold by exactly violence and intrigue. Those who aren't adapted can only continue to live by pressuring and hurting their friends, requiring them to do work for them, and by doing unethical things. They will live in pain, because the world around them will torture them. Their children will live in even greater pain. By following instincts, those individuals can die of old age and then dissappear, unite with the Brahma, with good consciene - they will have contributed to the survival of their species. Those who struggle for power and things nature doesn't want them to have - and only their own feelings can tell them whether or not they'll be given them by nature - will only cause damage by their short-term egoistical thoughts, but support it if they pursue a long-term egoistic strategy. The species is merely a mirror of it's nature. Reasoning thinking easily realizes what having power means, it gives you more choice of partners etc. But it takes instincts, tested by nature over millenia, weighing in thousands and millions of factors, to realize that every struggle for unjust power will lead to conflict, and an eventual fall, after causing extreme destruction everywhere, which in the long term makes it unbenefitial.

The problem is that society now is so far from the nature humans lived in before civilisation, that almost everyone feels pain. In this society, where evilness can sometimes gain individuals, cruelty and psycopathy benefits. If we do not change this society, we'll kill the human species once and for all. The human beings will be a mirror of this cruel society, will be a mirror of the wars it has gone through during the centuries. That is defeat, that is pain for everyone. Unforuntately, the human species has changed society so much that civilisation has gotten own life, it's hiding this truth from humanity, hiding the truths about civilisation going to kill the human species, and replace it with a cruel machine that doesn't hesitate to destroy it's mother, the earth, from which it recieves its life. Humanity has created a civilisation, that has been developed like humanity has been developed: by evolution, only the strongest, those who are hardest for humans to get rid of and protest against, have survived. Only those where the leaders are driven to defending the civilisation, and all unnatural things it means, without scruples, have survived wars and rebellions. We are replacing humanity by a system, which can only exist as long as humanity exists. Don't you see this? Can't you see that all actions you commit that seems to strengthen yourself (in the short term), only strengthens the civilisation, while it weakens you? No conspiracy is needed for all this to happen, civilisation in itself is the conspiracy. How wrong isn't our view of civilisation? We use the word civilised in the meaning "not cruel, not violent", when civilisation has been the root of violence which isn't less than a million times worse than any violence existing in nature. We fear our instincts, because only a civilisation have been able to survive history which can make us fear, and despise, nature, and seeing the truth about civilisation which would lead us to abolish it. Haven't all bad things in history evolved from themselves, from the foundations of the civilisation? Where were conspiracies, when we invented coins and money, only to next moment see the development of poverty, starvation, prostitution and economical wars - how many haven't died because of gold, such a useless substance that is too soft to be made into any useful tools, and that shines so strong that it gives you a headache if ever you'd work with it? Where were the conspiracies, when farmers needed the lowland at the same time the cattle drivers needed it, and they therefore started the first wars in history? Where were conspiracies, when that lead to a mutual fear, which lead people to attack just because they feared the others feared them and would maybe attack? Where were conspiracies when that lead people to fight wars for strategical positions, that would be useful to hold in case of a war of the above mentioned types?

Those conspiracies/mafia organizations that exist today are nothing compared to the biggest conspiracy there is - the shapeless civilisation, driven by nobody and everbody. Those who think they are driving a conspiracy, are merely victims of fear - they can't admit that their acts are caused by the outside, the situation that civilisation creates, and must call those acts their own, to not succumb to the fear that causes them. Those humans who want world domination for themselves, lose it eventually, lose it to the much stronger power, which humanity once set free. The roman empire is barely a single piece of brickwork in this gigantic history of struggles between civilisation, until this self-replicating system has evolved into something that can't be crushed, built on the fear of all humans, the fear which it itself creates, because only a civilisation which can create the fear it is built upon, have been able to survive the centuries of war. Of the roman empire, barely the parts of institutions that belong to civilisation survived - roman law, roman "justice", roman administration - but where are the people? Where is the roman culture, where are the roman parties?

In conclusion - why bother about conspiracies driven by small or large groups of humans, when there's a bigger problem? The power behind every conspiracy's will to conspire; the civilisation. The fighting between different conspiracies and individuals who dislike conspiracies, only in the end leads to the victory of civilisation, and the elimination of humanity. A civilized end to humanity... The destruction of environment without anybody noticing, until all are dead.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I have looked at various conspiracy sites, and they all say that there is some "huge" conspiracy behind the scenes, to create a so called "new world order".
[...]
Some key phrases from the "Protocols of Zion" I have read. There could some truth to these lines, if someone were to look at what is happening in the world and in the last few decades at least.Read this for a refute of the 'Protocols of Zion' (http://skepdic.com/protocols.html)

'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a forgery made in Russia for the Okhrana (secret police), which blames the Jews for the country's ills. It was first privately printed in 1897 and was made public in 1905. It is copied from a nineteenth century novel by Hermann Goedsche (Biarritz, 1868) and claims that a secret Jewish cabal is plotting to take over the world.'

[Rodion Romanovich]

Read this for a refute of the 'Protocols of Zion' (http://skepdic.com/protocols.html)

'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a forgery made in Russia for the Okhrana (secret police), which blames the Jews for the country's ills. It was first privately printed in 1897 and was made public in 1905. It is copied from a nineteenth century novel by Hermann Goedsche (Biarritz, 1868) and claims that a secret Jewish cabal is plotting to take over the world.'

Yeah, a document of that kind is quite easy to create and attribute to some author, who didn't write it. In fact, it's a method that have been used by many leaders over time. Stalin's USSR also used the method, gone even further - when they started the Finnish winter war, they killed around 10 Russian soldiers with artillery and blamed the Finnish of attacking them, as an excuse for going into Finland.

What is scary though, is that several novels about conspiracies and other terrible utopias have nearly come true - the wildest imagination of authors trying to create a artistic horror novel later ending up as the normal way a short time afterwards. George Orwell's books are good examples, with all the surveillance implemented today. This protocol, which is also an artistic creation, has also partly come true (but with individual interest organizations. and the previous state of all factors in society leading them to it, rather than a conspiracy being behind it). Like I explained above, most of these bad things that go on in society follow from the previous state of matters in a civilisation, and with a natural, normal struggle with natural instincts given such an environment, many terrible developments come naturally the way society looks today, which is the real problem.

Like I also said - whether conspiracies exist or not, and assuming they exist who controls them, matter little - the important thing is that the basic system is made in a way so that neither a secret conspiracy, nor an open lobbying organization, can get enough power to do something that can hurt humanity. The single act of creating a too strong single power position is always a bad thing, because the power position will always sooner or later end up in the hands of someone who'll misuse the power, something that might not be visible during a period when a nice guy is holding the position.

[kiwitt]

Read this for a refute of the 'Protocols of Zion' (http://skepdic.com/protocols.html)

That may be true. However, it should be noted that a lot of what was written in them have come true in some way or another. Who is to say the author who wrote it in a novel had not read it some where else. I have also read that the "Protocols" were involved in the "French Revolution", which occured before this novel was written. Also, Zionists are different from actual Jews as a whole. I suspect that they are fanatical sect of Jewish origin. While some later leaders have used them to justify actions against all Jews, this does not mean they are false.

If such "Protocols" or guiding principles were real, the current powers that be, will use all sorts of methods, including horrible actions by "dictators" to detract attention from what is actually written inside them to discredit them. I suggest people do read them, and look at world events and history to see what has happened and compare with the passages written.


Like I also said - whether conspiracies exist or not, and assuming they exist who controls them, matter little - the important thing is that the basic system is made in a way so that neither a secret conspiracy, nor an open lobbying organization, can get enough power to do something that can hurt humanity. The single act of creating a too strong single power position is always a bad thing, because the power position will always sooner or later end up in the hands of someone who'll misuse the power, something that might not be visible during a period when a nice guy is holding the position.

I agree.

While, as I said I don't believe that there a single "Cabal" of leaders, behind a conspiracy for world domination, in the terms of a single leader or leaders ruling the world upfront like dictators. Their purpose is to make governments, businesses and individuals, slaves to debt. And debt incurs interest payments, which in turn make the lenders rich, and the biggest lenders are bankers.

You could also read the history of the "Rothschilds" and see how the brothers setup in different countries and then lent money to both sides of the Napoleonic wars. Today, banks are lending money to the US for it's recent increase in "Military Spending".

There is a bank is Switzerland (I think in Basel) called the "Bank of International Settlements". I read that the Governor of the NZ Reserve Bank deposited $100 Million in to this bank. Some media questioned it, but the reporting stopped. I am sure a lot of other central banks deposited money into this bank.

As anyone knows "Money = Power". The ones that hold the money have the power. I have resolved to never incur debt again.

We even went so far that after we paid off the loan for the house, we removed the Bank from the "Certificate of Title". Effectively removing the "Mortgage" as well as paying back the loan.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I have also read that the "Protocols" were involved in the "French Revolution", which occured before this novel was written.Oh, I have read anti-semitic explanations for everything. Allways makes me feel like taking a shower to wash that filth off of me when I'm done. ~;)

[kiwitt]

Oh, I have read anti-semitic explanations for everything. Allways makes me feel like taking a shower to wash that filth off of me when I'm done. ~;)

Be aware that I am also not anti-semitic. I am also partially Jewish and my Grandfather was part Jew and forced into slave labor, however he did survive.

I am not defending the "Protocols" because I want to prove a whole "Jewish" conspiracy. Just like the recent terrorist action is not some grand "Muslim" plan. There are fanatics in any organisation and what Hitler and Stalin did to the Jews, is like what some "Right-Wingers" suggest we do to all Muslims today.

I believe these "Protocols" were written many years ago, by leaders of a fanatical wing of the "Jewish" faith. As I said just read them and make your own conclusion and don't dismiss them too lightly until you have.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Be aware that I am also not anti-semitic.Noted. ~:cheers:

[Goofball]

In my experience real estate almost never loses value, unless theres a catastrophic variable that the buyer doesnt know about- such as it having a chemical dump on it or something.

Then your experience doesn't go back to the 80's. I'll give you the short version:

skyrocketing interest rates = many people had to renew their previously 7% mortgage at 18% = payment (on, say a $200,000 mtg) goes from $1400/month to $3000/month = many people can't make payments = lots of bank foreclosures = huge glut of property hits market as banks try to offload = real estate prices drop sharply nationwide

[PanzerJaeger]

Then your experience doesn't go back to the 80's.

Overvaluation and devaluation occur regularly, but the price of the property still rises - its just a matter of how much it rises.

[bmolsson]

Overvaluation and devaluation occur regularly, but the price of the property still rises - its just a matter of how much it rises.

Long term, only prime locations beat the inflation..... ~;)

[PanzerJaeger]

No way, not in America. Even in the hardest hit places in the 80s, that land was still worth way more than it was 5 years before.

[Productivity]

but the price of the property still rises - its just a matter of how much it rises.

That is true for just about every market though. Look at most indices - they all tend to go up in the long run.

[PanzerJaeger]

No market I know of has as good of a risk-benefit ratio as real estate.

[bmolsson]

No market I know of has as good of a risk-benefit ratio as real estate.

Drugs ? ~;)

[AntiochusIII]

There are pklenty of unconventional risks in that field. ~:handball:They are mostly not economic though. ~:cool: