View Full Version : How much do pictures like this effect you?
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41230000/jpg/_41230037_children_203getty.jpg
I was looking at an article about Post Traumatic Stress on the BBC and this was one of the byline pictures. It is a scene of two kids immediately after their parents had been shot by soldiers.
What does this do to you?
Thanks for the poll SC
Ser Clegane
08-15-2005, 12:51
Poll added (I took the liberty to also include a "GAH!" option ~:) )
To be honest it does have a little bit of an impact and does make me think a bit.
Productivity
08-15-2005, 12:58
Voted has no particular effect, although it's not hugely an accurate description.
My feelings are this one has no particular effect, because I have seen others just as bad. That does not mean I don't care, I do, and if I could change it I would, but my efforts are focused on other things equally as horrific.
Sort of I wish I could solve all the worlds ills, but I can't, so I'll just concentrate on one of them.
Al Khalifah
08-15-2005, 13:04
I would already have opinions regarding such an issue. I don't need photographs, deliberately doctored to create an emotive response in order for me to feel one way or the other about what they represent. It's just the typical sensationalist media try to milk a tear or two in order to sell a few more papers or get a slightly higher rating.
Also - all in the name of science - can you say whether you have kids. My theory being that people with kids (or possibly younger syblings) themselves will feel more than those without.
Sjakihata
08-15-2005, 13:21
I have no kids (im 20) and my younger brother is 16.
While I agree that pictures like these, are probably shot in order to promote a cause (be it better selling papers, or others) they are still valid, and present a situation. If I disregard that the media is trying to tingle with me emotions etc, I still get moved by such a photo.
edit; I voted the last option (not the gah)
Louis VI the Fat
08-15-2005, 13:44
I find that picture very disturbing.
It almost brings tears to my eyes.
No kids.
TonkaToys
08-15-2005, 13:49
I find that picture very disturbing.
It almost brings tears to my eyes.
No kids.
That pretty much sums up what I am feeling now; voted Has an impact - find quite upsetting thinking about those kids.
I've noticed that I am much more liable to be upset by things like this, and for example stories about the emergency services and what they did in the recent London bombings, since my son was born.
I need a hug... ~:grouphug:
Productivity
08-15-2005, 13:56
No kids - it's still outrageous though, it's just I get outraged about other things equally as deserving - the world still sucks for most though.
"Has no particular effect. Just another photo."
I see photos like that all the time, after a while it does turn into just another photo, tragicly. ~:handball:
Adrian II
08-15-2005, 14:36
I have kids that age, so being touched in my case is a no-brainer. The pic makes me angry, not sad, but that is based uniquely on the by-line. If the by-line would state that the kids had just been rescued by the soldiers my reaction would be totally different. So much for the eloquence of pictures.
~:handball:
I have kids that age, so being touched in my case is a no-brainer. The pic makes me angry, not sad, but that is based uniquely on the by-line. If the by-line would state that the kids had just been rescued by the soldiers my reaction would be totally different. So much for the eloquence of pictures.
~:handball:
Have to somewhat agree with Adrian on this. (And I have Kids).
The by-line shows why the photo was taken.
THe photo makes me feel sorry for the children - but it doesn't tell me the reasons behind why the event happened - only the after effects of the event.
scooter_the_shooter
08-15-2005, 14:59
I am glad the soldiers are restraining them....there have been women and children with bombs strapped to them in iraq. As long as they are not actually hurting the people and just have them restrained I am ok with it.
They are not threatening her or the kid they dont have guns pointed at them...she is probably crying because they took the husband away?
bmolsson
08-15-2005, 15:03
The world sux... Not very surprising or upsetting. Just sad.....
bmolsson
08-15-2005, 15:05
they dont have guns pointed at them...
Maybe the guns are not loaded...... :balloon2:
Gawain of Orkeny
08-15-2005, 15:12
The phot effect but the byline does. It doesnt say why the or how the parents were shot however. Its not as bad as a pictire of say dea kids or say them actually looking at their dead parents, that would be upsetting. Nothing comes close to witnessing this in reality however. Its one of the reasons being a soldier is a shit job sometimes.
Al Khalifah
08-15-2005, 15:21
Its one of the reasons being a soldier is a shit job sometimes.
Pictures and descriptions like this never troubled me, but the ones that put a critical slant against soldiers who were only doing their job used to (and still do) make me sick. While on service once, The Guardian published a very critical and heart-string pulling article about British soldiers behavior near where we were stationed. Stuff like that really upsets soldiers. I think my mother's comment was "why don't the paper's just shoot the soldiers for them."
scooter_the_shooter
08-15-2005, 15:23
Maybe the guns are not loaded...... :balloon2:
I doubt they are going to do a raid with unloaded guns :help:
Gah. Since each photo is different, each photo affects me differently.
The world is a harsh place, hardest on the littlest.
ichi :bow:
t1master
08-15-2005, 16:21
gah!
i have a kid about the age of the kids in the photo. these photos and stories always spark the paternal/protector bit/instinct inside me, and get me upset. i guess it's cause it's really easy to imagine the crying or dying children in the photos/stories as being me own.
so it is a connection on a very human level, at least for me... children are children and don't get the reasons why. so images like these make me feel for them. funny how kids can transcend national/political boundries or ideologies.
The Blind King of Bohemia
08-15-2005, 16:33
No image has ever effected me except when reading Alaster cooks book on America showing an image of a 1930's lynch mob hanging a young black lad. It is a haunting image which stayed in my mine for years.
The image above doesn't really effect me. I feel for the boy but thats about it.
Steppe Merc
08-15-2005, 16:38
It has an impact, but it doesn't make me real mad, if only because I've seen many other similar things. To think of my little brothers orphaned like that...
And isn't that woman dying? Aren't those red spots bullet holes?
scooter_the_shooter
08-15-2005, 16:42
LOL steppe Our soldiers use a 223(or a 5.56 they are the same ting) with a full metal jacket.....that is not going to leave holes near that big...those are part of the dress ~D
She is probably crying because the soldiers to daddy the insurgent away :embarassed: I dont feel sorry at all.
scooter_the_shooter
08-15-2005, 16:45
Steppe do you really think our soldiers would shoot a civilian that many times? there may have been a few war crimes but our soldiers are not monsters.
Not taken away caesar, shot. There is a difference.
Stefan the Berserker
08-15-2005, 16:48
Pictures like these wake up my native "Defender Spirit" an make me angry.
There is no way around at least a small emotion, exept you are dead or ill. It is a matter of simple Psychology.
Divinus Arma
08-15-2005, 16:52
Sad but that is the way it goes. The war is just and these sensationalist pictures are not going to change my mind. Where's all the pictures of dead nazi's children? Same thing as insurgent's children.
Just because the insurgents have children isn't going to stop me from smokin 'em. They should be happy we didn't bomb the whole house like we did in the old days. But that is what we get for avoiding civilian casualties. The middle finger and old F*U*.
scooter_the_shooter
08-15-2005, 16:53
How do you know they shot him....you need to see a documentary called gunner palace....a reporter follows the soldiers in on 3 raids(in baghdad) They usually do this (its all real it is not no movie)
bust in
the women/children cry
some times they find some rpgs and ak47s
they take the man in for questioning
If he is innocent they let him go
If not then they keep him.
Very rarely are any shots fired.
Steppe Merc
08-15-2005, 16:54
Oh. Ok, so that's part of the dress.
But the whole point is that they shot him, not that they took him.
scooter_the_shooter
08-15-2005, 16:56
He is an INSURGENT......do you get upset when you hear about dead nazis.
Steppe Merc
08-15-2005, 17:00
How the hell do you know he's an insergent? Besides, not all of the insurgents are the evil nutty kind. Many are remanants from the Republican Guard, who while aren't any angels are different from the radical Muslims that are in Iraq.
scooter_the_shooter
08-15-2005, 17:03
If they shot him he had to be resisting or grabbing for a gun/knife etc. I dont feel sorry at all.
Steppe Merc
08-15-2005, 17:05
So according to you, no soldier ever killed an innocent, unarmed civilian? The soldier is always right?
And even if he was armed, his kids now have no parent. That sucks, to say the least.
scooter_the_shooter
08-15-2005, 17:12
It is a war there will be accidents and a few crimes....there is no way to change that.....MAYBE INSTEAD OF CARING ABOUT THE INSURGENT you should care about the american children who were turned into orphans because of that insurgent you seem to like so much.
Louis VI the Fat
08-15-2005, 18:14
It is a scene of two kids immediately after their parents had been shot by soldiers.
What does this do to you?
They should be happy we didn't bomb the whole house like we did in the old days. But that is what we get for avoiding civilian casualties. The middle finger and old F*U*.I find this a bit insensitive of you. Assuming that the byline is correct these kids saw their parents being been shot before their very eyes. They will now grow up as orphans in a war-torn country (i.e. they're pretty much scr@w@d).
I wouldn't care if these are Adolf Hitler's children themselves. They're innocent children whose life is ruined. That's a tragedy. Not a reason for tough macho talk. :embarassed:
scooter_the_shooter
08-15-2005, 18:16
Blame the father he was an insurgent....maybe he should have thought about those children before he went to go play rebel.
Sjakihata
08-15-2005, 18:28
Insurgent... A man fighting for his freedom and his country. But unfortunately, the USA is the enemy, so he is insurgent. And if he is in fact an insurgent, does that render his cause invalid? Hell no, can you remember a very young country, fighting against a superior power - where the battles have been glorified? I bet you can
*hint* the "Revolution
Blame the father he was an insurgent....maybe he should have thought about those children before he went to go play rebel.
The problem ceasar010 is that the caption on the picture as described by Idaho does not provide the details of the reason why behind the event that the picture is showing.
Was the man an insurgent - that would be an assumption that one can come to based upon previous accounts.
Was the man an innocent civilian shot accidently by the soldiers - another assumption that can come from other previous accounts.
Was it an innoncent civilian shot on purpose - highly doubtful.
The point of the picture is to get the reader or in this case the viewer of the picture to have an emotional reaction concerning the kids. What would be interesting is if Idaho linked or posted the story that went along with the photo. But that is not what he was after - he wanted to see how people reacted to the photo itself primarily based upon a simple statement of why the photo was taken.
In that aspect - I had a strong reaction because of the children involved.
Mongoose
08-15-2005, 18:30
Louis IV the Fat
What do you suggest that the soldiers should have done?
Gawain of Orkeny
08-15-2005, 18:39
This is so silly. Wehn there is a fire fight you try to kill the enemy. You cant wonder if he has a wife or children. Its very disturbing later on however when you take the personal effects off a dead enemy and realise he had a wife and kids just like you and in reality is another human being. These pictures are disturbing to soldiers. You do your duty and then face the consequences. Being a soldier once more is a dirty job but someone has to do it. There will always be such children as long as war and violence exist.
Kagemusha
08-15-2005, 18:45
My answer.I dont like it.I dont like to look at suffering children,it doesnt matter where are they from.
scooter_the_shooter
08-15-2005, 18:55
Louis IV the Fat
What do you suggest that the soldiers should have done?
Exactly what they did.
Goofball
08-15-2005, 18:56
Voted "Has an impact - find quite upsetting thinking about those kids."
Ever since my son was born, I find I have very little emotional resistance to any photos/stories/whatever having to do with children experiencing trauma of any kind. No matter what, my mind always juxtaposes images of my own child in the same situation, inspiring within me a nasty combination of rage, fury, and sadness beyond anything that the "pre-fatherhood" me was ever able to imagine.
Goofball
08-15-2005, 19:07
Blame the father he was an insurgent....maybe he should have thought about those children before he went to go play rebel.
Hmmm. You said something before that relates to that statement, let me see, where was it? Oh yes:
MAYBE INSTEAD OF CARING ABOUT THE INSURGENT you should care about the american children who were turned into orphans because of that insurgent you seem to like so much.
So, are we not to feel sorry for the American orphan because maybe his dad should have "thought about his children before he decided to go play U.S. Marine?"
Gimme a break. Whether the parents made good decisions or bad, children who have lost their parents are deserving of all the empathy and care we can extend to them.
Paul Peru
08-15-2005, 19:08
I get very sad for the kids.
I always do... (bleeding heart type)
I have no child of my own as yet. (until January)
In this case I also get mad at the :furious3: so-and-sos who start a bloody bloody war for no good reason.
Paul Peru
08-15-2005, 19:10
It is a war there will be accidents and a few crimes....there is no way to change that.....MAYBE INSTEAD OF CARING ABOUT THE INSURGENT you should care about the american children who were turned into orphans because of that insurgent you seem to like so much.
~:confused: That's incredible!
I think I'll start another poll or something about the value of human life...
Louis VI the Fat
08-15-2005, 19:21
What do you suggest that the soldiers should have done?I suggest they do what they should've done in their situation. ~;)
What I deplore is the tragedy that befell two innocent children. This is not what a small child should have to endure. :embarassed:
It doesn't even matter if their parents are the world's most dangerous terrorists or just 'abdullah average and his wife' peacefully minding their own bussiness.
I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry for children crying in fear in the burning ruins of Dresden. I feel sorry for children in Ohio, their mother in tears telling them their father will not return from Iraq.
That is the true face of war. A human tragedy.
Some things are worth fighting for, going to war for. I'm not a tree-huggin' hippie. But I know that human suffering is never a cause for macho chest-beating.
Edit: Gah! I should've waited with my reply a few minutes and copied the quote below. Goofball in more concise words says what I wanted to say:
Gimme a break. Whether the parents made good decisions or bad, children who have lost their parents are deserving of all the empathy and care we can extend to them.
PanzerJaeger
08-15-2005, 20:14
No effect at all. Im not that easily played.
Nice picture Idaho. Nothing subliminal about that one. ~;)
UglyandHasty
08-15-2005, 20:34
LINK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4124558.stm) to where the pic was taken....
Goofball
08-15-2005, 20:46
No effect at all. Im not that easily played.
Nice picture Idaho. Nothing subliminal about that one. ~;)
What if it had been a picture of two American kids in Utah crying while their mother held a letter she had just received that began "The Department of Defence regrets to inform you that..."?
Would that have been enough to "play" you?
LINK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4124558.stm) to where the pic was taken....
Thanks for the link - that places the context of the picture to something I can understand.
However even in the article - the author is using the picture for emotional appeal concerning the subject matter - a very effective use of a picture in my opinion.
It strikes to the point about the after effects of combat stress and the actions that soldiers must take on the battlefield -especially in the chaos of urban warfare which is probably one of the most stressful of all combat operations.
scooter_the_shooter
08-15-2005, 20:54
Yes it would because I care about americans.
Americans take a pledge of allegiance to the United states...not the world :bow:
After americans I care about our allies after that I don't mind as much(I still care but not near as much)
Think of it this way
You care about your family(america) then your friends(allies) then strangers (every one else)
That picture makes me angry. What chances in life do those poor children have now?
scooter_the_shooter
08-15-2005, 21:16
It is not the soldiers fault it's a war....people will always die in wars.
Voted "Has an impact - find quite upsetting thinking about those kids."
Ever since my son was born, I find I have very little emotional resistance to any photos/stories/whatever having to do with children experiencing trauma of any kind. No matter what, my mind always juxtaposes images of my own child in the same situation, inspiring within me a nasty combination of rage, fury, and sadness beyond anything that the "pre-fatherhood" me was ever able to imagine.
Yeah that is very much the same for me. I have found fatherhood has made these kinds of images to have an almost physical impact. Like a blow.
I wonder if this is why aggressive solutions are often the preserve of young childless men. Combine that with an organisation, ideology or dogma that justifies or directs - it is little wonder that we have such an acceptance of violence.
Panzer - are you young and childless?
Think of it this way
You care about your family(america) then your friends(allies) then strangers (every one else)
That is exactly the rationale that the US forces have always used. And would explain why they are so poor at peacekeeping and in civil war situations.
Steppe Merc
08-15-2005, 21:38
Damn it, I'm too mad right now, I'll respond to this after a bit of cooling off.
Damn it, I'm too mad right now, I'll respond to this after a bit of cooling off.
That's the reason I am so obnoxious on the boards - I prefer to externalise my irritation at some of the ignorance rather than have to deal with it.
Tribesman
08-15-2005, 22:12
If they shot him he had to be resisting or grabbing for a gun/knife etc. I dont feel sorry at all.
A big herd of bullocks Ceasar :dizzy2:
Care to take a look at some of the courts martial that have occured ?
The thing that disturbs me from that photo is not the little girls face after the death of her parents (if the photo and caption is true) , it is the little boys face , can't you just see that little face blowing something up or flying into a skyscraper in a few years time :embarassed:
Little acorns eh ? plant the seed and watch it grow , oh and something about a cold dish :help:
Gawain of Orkeny
08-15-2005, 22:19
That is exactly the rationale that the US forces have always used. And would explain why they are so poor at peacekeeping and in civil war situations.
No that is what every rational person does . You take care of you and your first. You cant help anyone if your dead.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
08-15-2005, 22:23
The world isn't fair. I learned that a long time ago, and it prevents me getting too worked up about the picture. Besides, in my beliefs, if the parents where good people, they have nothing to fear, as they're probably in Heaven.
Divinus Arma
08-16-2005, 01:59
Hey. You asked me what these pictures make me think and what they do to me.
Here is what I see:
Soldier. Kids Crying. Caption reads: Parents just killed by Soldiers.
Here is what I think in response:
Soldiers killed insurgents. Kids do not understand who their parents are. Good job Soldiers. Keep it up.
As for the kids, what can we do? Nothing. Except make the country stable for their future and ours.
Yay, Soldiers! Kill the enemy without discrimination. Kill them all.
Sheet of glass, baby. Sheet of glass.
PanzerJaeger
08-16-2005, 02:14
What if it had been a picture of two American kids in Utah crying while their mother held a letter she had just received that began "The Department of Defence regrets to inform you that..."?
Would that have been enough to "play" you?
No, I dont let emotions get in the way of logic. Personal tradgedy is just that - personal. It has no effect on what I think about the greater context in which it occured.
Only the weak are affected by such visuals. If a person did not know the tradgedy of war before they saw the picture, he is simply too sheltered and shouldnt even be allowed to hold an opinion on war, as he knows so little about it.
But if you'd like a canned response, here you go.
This is horrible. I feel so bad. America is a horrible country.
Steppe Merc
08-16-2005, 02:16
Idaho, I deffinetly see what you mean.
Yes it would because I care about americans.
Americans take a pledge of allegiance to the United states...not the world :bow:
After americans I care about our allies after that I don't mind as much(I still care but not near as much)
Think of it this way
You care about your family(america) then your friends(allies) then strangers (every one else)
There is nothing about Americans that make us special. We live in a certaint part of the world. Wahoo. I know a whole bunch of people that are idiots (and Americans). Nothing special about them, except that they live in America.
It is not the soldiers fault it's a war....people will always die in wars.
Fine. In that case, you should be getting angry at George Bush and his all those damn lying politicians that got us into this, because it's their fault. And when soldiers kill people, it is their responsibility. Perhaps it was the right thing to do. But it is still them that pulled the trigger, and the blame is on their shoulders as well.
It is a war there will be accidents and a few crimes....there is no way to change that.....MAYBE INSTEAD OF CARING ABOUT THE INSURGENT you should care about the american children who were turned into orphans because of that insurgent you seem to like so much.
A. There is no proof that he is an insurgent.
B. Perhaps he felt he was protecting those little kids by fighting Americans. Would you be all happy if France invaded to over throw George Bush and liberate us?
C. American kid, Iraqi kid, they are all innocent kids whose life is really screwed up because of the morons who cause wars.
D. Someone being a soldier does not make them special in my eyes. They are no better or worse than a normal person, because they are normal people.
E. If the man killed was a terrorist (different from an insurgent, mind), then he was an evil bastard. And if on the extremely unlikely chance that some soldier killed him for no reason, than that soldier is a bastard (it is unlikely, but certaintly possible, as Red pointed out). If he was trying to kill the soldier, than that is justified.
F. But in the end, regardless of whether the fathers were bastards, the children really are, and that is a sad thing, no matter what.
Red and Gawain, thanks for your views. I don't agree with you always, or often, but its nice (well, sort of, if you know what I mean...) to know that people who have seen combat are still affected by things like this. :bow:
Samurai Waki
08-16-2005, 02:48
War sucks. Deal with it. Accidents happen, and an incident like that where I shot an innocent and left his children abandoned would haunt me for the rest of my life.
The picture itself doesn't necessarily bring about any emotions though.
Divinus Arma
08-16-2005, 03:07
By the way, I thought I would ask:
How do pictures like this make you feel?
https://img305.imageshack.us/img305/7926/people1g19rk.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1656/falling212ix.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3541/people1k14tb.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8765/people1z19fx.th.jpg (https://img29.imageshack.us/my.php?image=people1z19fx.jpg)
https://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9136/personfalling114rg.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
scooter_the_shooter
08-16-2005, 03:19
The one of the guy jumping out of the building effected me the most..... I heard people did that on 911.... but never saw a clear picture of it.
Those pictures make me glad that afghanistan was attacked.
Divinus Arma
08-16-2005, 03:39
its nice (well, sort of, if you know what I mean...) to know that people who have seen combat are still affected by things like this. :bow:
And what about me? I've seen plenty of death. Had a Marine die right in front of me after his drunk buddy smashed in his guts via vehicle (his blood pumping in and out during CPR like a jelly donut). Also held an innocent girl's warm-blooded fresh corpse in my arms while her best friend screamed in the background and her other best friend sat behind her with no forehead (just blood pouring into her eyes). Or how about all the amputees I've seen in Afghanistan? Or wait, what about being shot at and driving through minefields and ambush points?
None of that qualifies me to speak on the horrors of violence?
Steppe Merc, I know you are a relatively open guy with left-leanings, but it is not the left who feels the pain. They "imagine" the pain. And there is no comparison, I assure you.
I've prayed. I've cared.
And it is not that I am dead or cold to human suffering. Instead I am realistic about it. And I understand that a million dead terrorists are not worth a single dead American. It is our true, heartfelt idealism and desire for peace that seperates the West from the prehistoric mindset of these thugs.
We want peace. But we are willing to kill in order to obtain a just and lasting peace.
Divinus Arma
08-16-2005, 03:42
The one of the guy jumping out of the building effected me the most..... I heard people did that on 911.... but never saw a clear picture of it.
Those pictures make me glad that afghanistan was attacked.
I imagine that his family would recognize him. Wouldn't you?
I don't need to wonder how his wife and parents felt.
Instead I ACT so that my fellow countrymen will never feel what his wife felt when she saw this picture for the first time.
bmolsson
08-16-2005, 03:56
I think that we in this thread actually caught the "violence spiral". Revenge after revenge. Stereotyping of enemy. Everyone is guilty and everyone is innocent. The hard part will be to mend the relationship between the enemies. I think that the first step to reconicilation and peace is to forgive and to feel for ALL victims in a conflict. Something most people on both sides in this thread seems to be inable to do..... Sad really......
Strike For The South
08-16-2005, 04:01
I do feel sorry for the kids they did nothing but tragides like this happen on both sides ie Sep 11 there is no sense trying to figure out whose right or who is wrong (unless the soldier shot him in cold blood then he should be tried but Im willing to give him the benift of the doubt)because both parties made a snap desicion at the time War is hell and there is no getting around
Divinus Arma
08-16-2005, 04:06
I think that we in this thread actually caught the "violence spiral". Revenge after revenge. Stereotyping of enemy. Everyone is guilty and everyone is innocent. The hard part will be to mend the relationship between the enemies. I think that the first step to reconicilation and peace is to forgive and to feel for ALL victims in a conflict. Something most people on both sides in this thread seems to be inable to do..... Sad really......
A non-partisan comment. ~:cheers:
But I stand by my former statements.
Yeah I'm pissed when I see that, I don't blame the soldiers, war is hell and things go wrong. Maybe a new guy panicked, maybe the guy reached for something that looked like a gun, maybe it actually was a gun. It just makes me pissed at leaders who start wars, or make wars neccesary. Bush, Saddam, Rumsfeld, Reagan, Clinton, The Ayahtola, The Shah, the CIA, Carter. Because they're screwing around in power, because of them we have to fight wars, and people die and children are left with nothing. Makes one angry at them all.
Adrian II
08-16-2005, 06:24
She is probably crying because the soldiers to daddy the insurgent away :embarassed: I dont feel sorry at all.Our troops can never be wrong so we are never sorry, huh? That is fascism, ceasar.
sharrukin
08-16-2005, 06:49
Yeah I'm pissed when I see that, I don't blame the soldiers, war is hell and things go wrong. Maybe a new guy panicked, maybe the guy reached for something that looked like a gun, maybe it actually was a gun. It just makes me pissed at leaders who start wars, or make wars neccesary. Bush, Saddam, Rumsfeld, Reagan, Clinton, The Ayahtola, The Shah, the CIA, Carter. Because they're screwing around in power, because of them we have to fight wars, and people die and children are left with nothing. Makes one angry at them all.
The first war I was involved in was in grade three, at age 9. The snowplows had made a rather large hill of snow and the high school kids decided the younger kids couldn't play on it. There were about twenty of them, 14 to 16 years old. About a hundred kids from the little school got together and swarmed them. We took the hill!
War is an aspect of what we are, and IMO it evades the truth about human nature to blame it on our leaders. The anti-war slogan “What if they threw a war and nobody came?” Well, it has a germ of truth to it. Somebody always comes. War is not something brought about by the evil designs of a 'Dr Evil'. War is something that men do, and have been doing at least since recorded history began. This should tell us something about ourselves.
Our leaders? Well they lead, and we follow.
Ironside
08-16-2005, 07:29
The first war I was involved in was in grade three, at age 9. The snowplows had made a rather large hill of snow and the high school kids decided the younger kids couldn't play on it. There were about twenty of them, 14 to 16 years old. About a hundred kids from the little school got together and swarmed them. We took the hill!
What would happen if someone was really wounded or died in your "war"? Would the other side cheer?
Papewaio
08-16-2005, 07:36
Sexy (and violent) images hurt your eyesight (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1201167,curpg-1.cms)
Most of the images were landscape or architectural scenes, but the psychologists included a few emotionally charged images, portraying violent or sexually provocative scenes.
The closer these emotionally charged images occurred prior to the target image, the more frequently people failed to spot the target image, the researchers found.
Gawain of Orkeny
08-16-2005, 17:17
What would happen if someone was really wounded or died in your "war"? Would the other side cheer?
In war you cheer because your alive and the enemy is dead. The rush of adrenalin and as they say the thrill of battle take over. Again when the fightings done and you go see what actually happened and that realpeople are dead there is no joy. In fact many are haunted by this for the rest of their lives. Again give our soldiers their due. Their not heartless inhumane killing machines. Not even Div ~;) Its they I feel sorry for.
Goofball
08-16-2005, 17:49
Only the weak are affected by such visuals. If a person did not know the tradgedy of war before they saw the picture, he is simply too sheltered and shouldnt even be allowed to hold an opinion on war, as he knows so little about it.
I beg to differ. Having been to war and seen firsthand its tragedy, I can assure you that I am not affected by that picture simply because I am too sheltered or ignorant to "even be allowed to hold an opinion on war." Nor am I only affected by it because I am weak, as you postulated.
Allow me to affer an alternative postulate: only the borderline sociopathic have absolutely no emotional response to a picture of children crying because their parents have just been shot to death.
Gawain of Orkeny
08-16-2005, 17:57
Then you also know Goof that few are affectted more negativly than the soldiers who had to shoot their father and witness the children crying.
Adrian II
08-16-2005, 18:05
Only the weak are affected by such visuals. If a person did not know the tradgedy of war before they saw the picture, he is simply too sheltered and shouldnt even be allowed to hold an opinion on war, as he knows so little about it.You sound as someone who has never even been to a war zone, let alone fought in it.
KafirChobee
08-16-2005, 18:07
In war you cheer because your alive and the enemy is dead. The rush of adrenalin and as they say the thrill of battle take over. Again when the fightings done and you go see what actually happened and that realpeople are dead there is no joy. In fact many are haunted by this for the rest of their lives. Again give our soldiers their due. Their not heartless inhumane killing machines. Not even Div ~;) Its they I feel sorry for.
Know what, Gawain? You are absolutely right.
However, in this instance it may have been the adrenalin that got the father shot. It is impossible for a soldier to determine in a split second whether something or someone presents a clear and present danger - his training takes over and he always sides on the one of caution (shoot first, ask questions later).
The original example posted simply asked if it had an effect on us. It did for me, I feel empathy for the children. But, not given the entire story of what occured (and the why and wherefore of it) leaves me more curious about it, than disturbed that the husband was purportedly shot. This photo is not worth a 1,000 words, but a 100 questions.
The diversity of opinions concerning it, and that someone felt it necessary to include pictures of 9/11 to stress his point about how seeing an image can force recall issues - demonstrates the absoluteness of somes position concerning the deaths of the innocent. The people that scare me most are those that proclaim they feel nothing when they see such images of Iraqi civilians being shot. Mores the pity for them to assume that our soldiers are always right and anyone that gets in their way wrong.
Right now, turning in your neighbor, or someone you dislike (whether they are or have done anything against the "peace" in Iraq) is a game. Our military is smart enough to do a cursory investigation into allegations before storming the homes of Iraqis'. But, the thing is when a people live in fear and armed men come in and tell them to hide this or that - or else, what choice do they have? Go to the Americans, and assure the deaths of their families by the thugs living clandestintly? We can't prejudge, and yet our troops are put in a position to do so on A daily basis. It is their job, and it will be their nightmares when they are wrong - for some .... even when they are right.
:balloon2:
Kagemusha
08-16-2005, 18:10
I tought this threads question was:How much do pictures like this effect you?To look at he picture and then tell how do you feel.Now it has turned into who do you feel sorry more Children of Iraqi rebels or US soldiers. :dizzy2:
It is their job, and it will be their nightmares when they are wrong - for some .... even when they are right.
:balloon2:
How true is everything you just wrote - especially the last part. Killing another human being in wartime - even from the distance that I was involved with - leaves you with memories that are sometimes very hard to face.
Then there are the memories of policing the battlefield.
Sometimes war is necessary - and Yes I still believe the war in Iraq was necessary - but one should be very careful on not having any empthay toward the innocent victims of war - and sometimes even your enemy. Because to lose your empthay toward them - means you are losing your humanity.
Goofball
08-16-2005, 18:14
Then you also know Goof that few are affectted more negativly than the soldiers who had to shoot their father and witness the children crying.
Agreed. I would bet that those soldiers, whether they acted completely within the rules of war or not when (if they actually did) shoot the parents, have just bought themselves about ten or fifteen years on the couch because of seeing the effects of their actions on the children.
sharrukin
08-16-2005, 18:29
What would happen if someone was really wounded or died in your "war"? Would the other side cheer?
Probably! At least at first they would. Small kids aren't made of sugar and spice, and everything nice.
We are fascinated by war. This forum is dedicated to Rome: Total War, Medieval: Total War, Shogun: Total War, etc. Did our leaders force us to come here!
I am not saying war is a good thing, but it is a human thing. Our leaders are not to blame. We are!
Steppe Merc
08-16-2005, 20:09
War probably is a human thing. But would the people still do it without anyone at all to follow into war? Some, certaintly, but as many?
And about the effects on the soldiers, I have been reading some pretty disturbing articales about the effects of war lately. I've always wondered why people farther back (I know WW1 and 2 had Post Tramatic Stress victims), but why not say the Medieval knights or Parthian cataphracts? Were they just used to it, since most saw far more warfare than any modern soldier, or was it never recongnized? Or both? And what about the less trained fighters who weren't raised from birth to be warriors? Or was it because back then, warfare wasn't nearly as horrid? Or was it, just different?
I hate when I start thinking about weird things like this.
Tribesman
08-17-2005, 01:14
This has actually turned into quite an interesting(and honest from sevaral posters) thread . :bow:
Papewaio
08-17-2005, 02:43
The world isn't fair. I learned that a long time ago, and it prevents me getting too worked up about the picture. Besides, in my beliefs, if the parents where good people, they have nothing to fear, as they're probably in Heaven.
The world is not fair, it is our job to make it more so. To say that something is not fair and that is ok is to be part of the problem not the solution. Nor does it matter if they go to Heaven, we are talking about the here and now.
Saying this I look to trends in things getting better, not absolute standards.
sharrukin
08-17-2005, 02:55
War probably is a human thing. But would the people still do it without anyone at all to follow into war? Some, certaintly, but as many?
If they didn't have someone to follow they would find someone! Pacifists don't get elected. Let me ask you this. Could Adolf Hitler have become the leader of any nation but Germany? Leaders have an effect but the conditions have to exist for them to take advantage of it.
And about the effects on the soldiers, I have been reading some pretty disturbing articales about the effects of war lately. I've always wondered why people farther back (I know WW1 and 2 had Post Tramatic Stress victims), but why not say the Medieval knights or Parthian cataphracts? Were they just used to it, since most saw far more warfare than any modern soldier, or was it never recongnized? Or both? And what about the less trained fighters who weren't raised from birth to be warriors? Or was it because back then, warfare wasn't nearly as horrid? Or was it, just different?
I hate when I start thinking about weird things like this.
Thats a good question!
I think war was worse in some ways in ancient times. Imagine 50 guys with axes, machetes, and bats going at each other. It would have been pretty gruesome IMO.
AFAIK, the first descriptions of the syndrome come from the Napoleonic Wars. This may be because the age of total war and mass conscription placed a large number of people who are not 'Warriors' in the line of battle. Previously the armies would have largely been made up of a smaller percentage of the general population. The culture and the glorification of war was also much more ponounced in earlier civilizations and this may have helped.
War is natural, of course. We have a natural disposition towards violence, why? We're animals, early in our history you fought or you died, but now the world has changed and peace is possible, should we not strive for it? Besides without leaders to fan the flames would there be as much war? Remember it was Hitler's drive that took Germany to war, the people were willing and capable but with a diffrent leader that willingness would have been directed elsewhere. Without the strong man Ghengis the Mongol horde would not have had the power or will to sweep across the world, the same goes for Alexander. If there had been no Napoleon there would have been no le Grande Armee, and so on.
PanzerJaeger
08-17-2005, 05:58
I beg to differ. Having been to war and seen firsthand its tragedy, I can assure you that I am not affected by that picture simply because I am too sheltered or ignorant to "even be allowed to hold an opinion on war." Nor am I only affected by it because I am weak, as you postulated.
Which war did you fight in Goof?
Ironside
08-17-2005, 08:12
Probably! At least at first they would. Small kids aren't made of sugar and spice, and everything nice.
You see one fundamental difference here right? As Gawain pointed out,
In war you cheer because your alive and the enemy is dead. The rush of adrenalin and as they say the thrill of battle take over. Again when the fightings done and you go see what actually happened and that realpeople are dead there is no joy.
but your "war" isn't about survival. By own experience things die out when someone gets hurt while in a real war it continues, because it has to. Fascination of violence does exist, but the concept of war in much more advanced than that.
It's not the reptilian parts of the brain that makes war, but the more advanced parts. It can easily be seen at the battlefield were the actual fighting is basic instinct of survival, but the "suecides" and things of extreme heroic/idiotic charactar is breaking the most fundamental principle. Suvival (well unless it was to save your kids).
The spontanic ceasefires that occured during the winter 1914 were French and German soldiers were celebrating christmas together, is also something interesting when it comes to war and the look on it.
And about the picture, only looking on it makes little difference. But when actually thinking about it makes me sad, but as I prefer not to feel it I shield myself from it. It's not close to me, and I prefere that it isn't, because the worlds sorrow is too much for me.
How true is everything you just wrote - especially the last part. Killing another human being in wartime - even from the distance that I was involved with - leaves you with memories that are sometimes very hard to face.
Then there are the memories of policing the battlefield.
Sometimes war is necessary - and Yes I still believe the war in Iraq was necessary - but one should be very careful on not having any empthay toward the innocent victims of war - and sometimes even your enemy. Because to lose your empthay toward them - means you are losing your humanity.
Excellent post.
From the research we have looked at before on these boards it does seem that normal human behaviour in war is to scare the opponents. The kind of deep training needed to make soldiers kill efficiently seems to have long term pyschological effects.
More Falklands war veterans have committed suicide since than died in the conflict itself.
Doubtless Panzer would, from behind his keyboard, call them weak.
Gawain of Orkeny
08-17-2005, 14:27
but your "war" isn't about survival
Every soldiers individual war is about survival and little else. Were talking reality here.
Goofball
08-17-2005, 17:28
I beg to differ. Having been to war and seen firsthand its tragedy, I can assure you that I am not affected by that picture simply because I am too sheltered or ignorant to "even be allowed to hold an opinion on war." Nor am I only affected by it because I am weak, as you postulated.Which war did you fight in Goof?
A very important distinction: I said that I had "been to war," not that I had fought in one. I was a member of UNPROFOR in the former Yugoslavia in 1992. The above distinction is very important. You see (as is almost always the case with UN Peacekeeping missions), the people we were supposed to be "policing" were allowed to kill us, but we weren't allowed to kill them. Quite frustrating, actually.
PanzerJaeger
08-17-2005, 20:01
A very important distinction: I said that I had "been to war," not that I had fought in one. I was a member of UNPROFOR in the former Yugoslavia in 1992. The above distinction is very important. You see (as is almost always the case with UN Peacekeeping missions), the people we were supposed to be "policing" were allowed to kill us, but we weren't allowed to kill them. Quite frustrating, actually.
Ahh a very confusing and dangerous situation, from what Ive seen.
Well Ive never been close to a war so I bow to your experience and apologize for implying you were weak. :embarassed:
Ironside
08-17-2005, 21:10
Every soldiers individual war is about survival and little else. Were talking reality here.
His "war" at the schoolyard????
The first war I was involved in was in grade three, at age 9. The snowplows had made a rather large hill of snow and the high school kids decided the younger kids couldn't play on it. There were about twenty of them, 14 to 16 years old. About a hundred kids from the little school got together and swarmed them. We took the hill!
You call this a real war?
Why do you think I put the "" there?
But yes in an actual war during the current situation is the invidual's war about survival. In the past have war been about pride and honour for some induviduals though.
sharrukin
08-17-2005, 22:00
His "war" at the schoolyard????
You call this a real war?
Nobody is calling it a real war!
That was never the point!
Ahh a very confusing and dangerous situation, from what Ive seen.
Well Ive never been close to a war so I bow to your experience and apologize for implying you were weak. :embarassed:
Yeah but you are all big macho talk about them.
Goofball
08-17-2005, 23:42
Ahh a very confusing and dangerous situation, from what Ive seen.
Well Ive never been close to a war so I bow to your experience and apologize for implying you were weak. :embarassed:
Thanks PJ.
bmolsson
08-18-2005, 02:59
Well Ive never been close to a war so I bow to your experience and apologize for implying you were weak. :embarassed:
But you have played Total War on hard haven't you ?? ~D
Ironside
08-18-2005, 07:42
Nobody is calling it a real war!
That was never the point!
What was the point then? Proof that war is natural?
bmolsson
08-18-2005, 08:09
What was the point then?
He took a hill when he was 9 and he want us all to know that ?? ~;)
Don Corleone
08-18-2005, 20:36
Sure, it's upsetting. I'm sure that the Vikings had children who cried when their parents die. Does that make the English defenders in NorthUmbria bastards for killing them? What about those poor German kids who were deprived of their parents in the Luftwaffe that your RAF shot down?
Yes, those pictures upset me. But so do these...
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/tharris00/zarmina1.jpg The poor Taliban that those evil Americans uprooted.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/tharris00/TVScreenCNNBreakingNews.jpg America getting what it deserves.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/tharris00/MFAJ0a100.jpg The Palestinians, and the fruits of their 'noble struggle'.
Don Corleone
08-18-2005, 21:04
Oh, and here's one from Iraq that we're not supposed to talk about.... careful, this will probably offend those of you with pre-conceived notions about America's role in Iraq....
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/tharris00/34994692.jpg
You are right Don! I've had the veil lifted from my eyes. All those A-rabs are just evil violent scum waiting for the ray of hope that is the US to come and cuddle their children.
Perhaps if I had never seen a photo before - or lived in a cave all my life - I might find your photo montage more impactful.
Don Corleone
08-18-2005, 21:20
You are right Don! I've had the veil lifted from my eyes. All those A-rabs are just evil violent scum waiting for the ray of hope that is the US to come and cuddle their children.
Perhaps if I had never seen a photo before - or lived in a cave all my life - I might find your photo montage more impactful.
I'm sorry Idaho. I didn't realize using inflammatory photographs that represent isolated events, not the larger truth, was your exclusive domain. Sorry to have stepped on your toes. :bow:
PanzerJaeger
08-18-2005, 21:54
^Check and mate! ~D
I'm sorry Idaho. I didn't realize using inflammatory photographs that represent isolated events, not the larger truth, was your exclusive domain. Sorry to have stepped on your toes. :bow:
Well that's where you fundamentally misunderstand the point of the thread unlike most people.
sharrukin
08-18-2005, 23:47
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
Nobody is calling it a real war!
That was never the point!
What was the point then? Proof that war is natural?
No, actually it was a cry for help! I am suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) because of a snowball fight, or....yeah, maybe that WAS the point! [the preceding sentence was "sarcasm"] Aggression is natural, even in children, and war is an organized form of that.
Ironside
08-19-2005, 08:23
No, actually it was a cry for help! I am suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) because of a snowball fight, or....yeah, maybe that WAS the point! [the preceding sentence was "sarcasm"] Aggression is natural, even in children, and war is an organized form of that.
Good, then I already mentioned my view on the issue.
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