Infants on no fly list

[Goofball]

This one is for the "unless you are a terrorist, you have nothing to fear from the new laws" crowd. Tell that to parents who miss their flights because the authorities can't figure out that maybe their 11-month old isn't the mastermind behind 9/11 after all. Now Canada is going to start using no-fly lists as well. I just hope we don't make such a balls-up of it, though I'm sure we will. We have just as many idiots doing government work here (proportionately) as the U.S. does...

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1124101426234&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968705899037&t=TS_Home

[Tribesman]

It seems to require logging in to the site Goof (the link) .
I can guess what it says though , more mindless beurocacy gone mad for no purpose .
I mean seriously , if you are a known terrorist then why would you travel using your own name ? if you are an unknown terrorist then what use is a list of known terrorists .

[Dâriûsh]

I think the list also includes their known aliases. That might explain the many Anglo-Saxon and Slavic names.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Goof, are you reffering to Paul Martin or Jack Layton? (Stephen is smart, but can put you to sleep with a sentence)

[Goofball]

It seems to require logging in to the site Goof (the link) .
I can guess what it says though , more mindless beurocacy gone mad for no purpose .
I mean seriously , if you are a known terrorist then why would you travel using your own name ? if you are an unknown terrorist then what use is a list of known terrorists .

Oops. Here you go:


Infants showing up on U.S. `no-fly' list



ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON — Infants have been stopped from boarding planes at airports throughout the United States because their names are the same as, or similar to, those of possible terrorists on the government's "no-fly list."


It sounds like a joke, but it's not funny to parents who miss flights while scrambling to have babies' passports and other documents faxed.


Ingrid Sanden's one-year-old daughter was stopped in Phoenix before boarding a flight home to Washington at Thanksgiving.


"I completely understand the war on terrorism, and I completely understand people wanting to be safe when they fly," Sanden said. ``But focusing the target a little bit is probably a better use of resources."


The government's lists of people who are either barred from flying or require extra scrutiny before being allowed to board airplanes grew markedly since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.


Critics including the American Civil Liberties Union say the government doesn't provide enough information about the people on the lists, so innocent passengers can be caught up in the security sweep if they happen to have the same name as someone on the lists.


That can happen even if the person happens to be an infant like Sanden's daughter. (Children under two don't need tickets but Sanden purchased one for her daughter to ensure she had a seat.)


"It was bizarre," Sanden said. "I was hugely pregnant, and I was like, `We look really threatening'."


Sarah Zapolsky and her husband had a similar experience last month while departing from Dulles International Airport outside Washington. An airline ticket agent told them their 11-month-old son was on the government list.


They were able to board their flight after ticket agents took a half-hour to fax her son's passport and fill out paperwork.


"I understand that security is important," Zapolsky said. "But if they're just guessing, and we have to give up our passport to prove that our 11-month-old is not a terrorist, it's a waste of their time."


Well-known people like Senator Edward Kennedy, Democratic Representative John Lewis of Georgia, and David Nelson, who starred in the sitcom The Adventures of Ozzie and Harriet, have also been stopped at airports because their names match those on the lists.


The government has sought to improve its process for checking passengers since the Sept. 11 attacks. The first attempt was scuttled because of fears the government would have access to too much personal information. A new version, called Secure Flight, is being crafted.


But for now, airlines still have the duty to check passengers' names against those supplied by the government.


That job has become more difficult — since the 2001 attacks the lists have swollen from a dozen or so names to more than 100,000, according to people in the aviation industry who are familiar with the issue. They asked not to be identified by name because the exact number is restricted information.

[scooter_the_shooter]

This is ridiculous....I thought it was kind of funny at first but when I thought about it some more I realized I would not be laughing if it happened to me :dizzy2:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

"I went to canada once I didnt like it. I got my head stuck in a fence at niagra falls. "

- ceasar010


You're lucky. I almost went over that fence.

[Mongoose]

Yeah, that's pretty crazy.

We need to focus on male muslims aged 17-40, not pregnant women and young children. :stwshame:

[Tribesman]

Cheers Goof , I can understand the Sanden one as it could be mistaken for Bin Laden , but Zapolsky ?????? ~D

[scooter_the_shooter]

You're lucky. I almost went over that fence.


lol ~D My head would not fit in that fence any more..... when it happened I was still in grade school.


It's the only thing I can remember from the trip

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I was on the other side of the fence, and my shirt caught on a spike. That close to falling down. ~:eek:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

This is what happens when you prevent profiling. If its a baby its pretty obvious its not a terrorist.

[kiwitt]

The Anti-Terror laws are sweeping and unjust.That is just one of the protocols I mentioned in another thread

" ... the best results in governing them are attained by violence and terrorisation"

[Xiahou]

This one is for the "unless you are a terrorist, you have nothing to fear from the new laws" crowd. What new laws? No fly lists aren't new to the PATRIOT ACT- they've been around for a long time.

But yes, people should be given at least a little more common sense leeway in this. However, if you leave it up to the discretion of a ticket agent, you're kind of asking for a screwup arent you?

[PanzerJaeger]

What new laws Goofy?

[bmolsson]

If its a baby its pretty obvious its not a terrorist.


How do you know that for sure ? It might be bad DNA or irresponsible parents ?? :book:

[KafirChobee]

The supposedly pregnant woman could have swallowed a bomb. The supposed baby could have been a miniuture spy, or Bin Laden in disguise, or an animated bomb. Thank God, for those whiz bang minimum wage airport security guards and ticket agents. Where would be without them? Boy, do I ever feel safer now.
~D

[Crazed Rabbit]

I recall that once a terrorist put a bomb in his girlfriend's luggage (w/o her knowledge).

Crazed Rabbit

[drone]

This is what happens when you prevent profiling. If its a baby its pretty obvious its not a terrorist.Ever been on a plane when a baby fills up it's diaper at 30,000 ft? That's a WMD right there! Ban all babies from flights! ~D

[BDC]

I love red tape! Wouldn't feel at home in an efficient culture.

[Adrian II]

I love red tape! Wouldn't feel at home in an efficient culture.Right. Last time I flew to the U.S. we had to fill in a form. The last question was: 'Are you entering the United States with criminal or terrorist intent?' On a wild guess, I would say everybody on that Air France flight answered 'No'. The lady next to me smiled and said: 'Do you think divorce qualifies as a crime over there?' Turned out to be a fun flight. Until we hit La Guardia and we were made to wait for three hours on the tarmac. Probably because De Villepin had just made another speech.
:balloon2:

[sharrukin]

I recall that once a terrorist put a bomb in his girlfriend's luggage (w/o her knowledge).

Crazed Rabbit

Checking luggage and carry on's is fine, but stopping toddlers seems a little pointless!

[Tribesman]

If its a baby its pretty obvious its not a terrorist.
Now forgive me if I might possibly by a big stretch of the imagination be making this rubbish up . But....how many times have you posted that picture of the little baby "Palestinian suicide bomber " Gawain ?

Edit to add "be"

[Goofball]

What new laws Goofy?

Sorry, didn't realize we were splitting hairs. You are right though; no fly lists are not laws, they are simply arbitrary lists that are compiled by bureaucrats that lever the public's fear of terrorism in order to give the government a free hand to persecute and harass people for their political views. To call them laws would be to dignify them with a hint of legality that they clearly do not possess. They are far more sinister than you realize.

Check it out:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/27/02/feature3.shtml

Two of my favorite parts:


Consider the experience of John Dear, a 43-year-old Jesuit priest, member of the Catholic peace group Pax Christi and former executive director of the Fellowship of Reconciliation, an interfaith global peace organization. “I fly just about every week,” Dear says. “Since 9/11, I’ve been taken aside at the boarding gate every single time and searched and questioned.”
He describes one particularly disturbing experience. “I got to the Southwest Airlines gate at the San Jose airport, on my way to Los Angeles, but as soon as the attendant saw my boarding pass, he shouted, “You can’t be here. You have to be searched!”

“Everyone’s jaws dropped, and all the passengers backed away from me,” he recalls. The flight was delayed while Dear was taken aside and minutely searched, with more than 100 passengers looking on nervously.

and:


Barbara Olshansky, assistant legal director of the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) in New York, reports that she has been stopped and searched every time she has flown since 9/11. On three of those occasions, she was forced to pull down her pants in view of other travelers. One of those times, when she demanded to know why she was being singled out, the airline agent at the gate threatened to bar her from the plane if she raised a fuss and added brusquely, “The computer spit you out. I don’t know why, and I don’t have time to talk to you about it.”

[PanzerJaeger]

Yep, no fly lists have been around a long time.. whats the big deal. Those people were searched and allowed on the plane. This is life post 9/11, theyll have to deal with it.

[Tribesman]

This is life post 9/11, theyll have to deal with it.
Yes , it predates 9/11 and people have to deal with it .
I look forward to the day when you are taken away , strip searched , thrown in a cell without a phone call or access to a lawyer , while your parents are left waiting in the arrivals lounge without a clue where you have gone to .
Just because someone going by the pseudonym of PankerJuggler had written something questionable on a internet forum .
Deal with it .

[PanzerJaeger]

LoL.. scare tactics dont work on people with half a brain Tribesman. :laugh4:

[Papewaio]

This is the PC way of attacking terrorism.

[bmolsson]

LoL.. scare tactics dont work on people with half a brain Tribesman. :laugh4:

Really ?? ~;)

[bmolsson]

Couldn't they just xray all infants if they have problems with them ??

[Goofball]

LoL.. scare tactics dont work on people with half a brain Tribesman. :laugh4:

You're absolutely right. It requires a whole brain to realize the dangers of these "security" measures. It's the people with only half a brain that think they are the right thing to do.

~;)

(Sorry, PJ, but you can't serve me up a tater like that and expect me not to take it downtown...)

[PanzerJaeger]

Let me try and salvage the point. ~;)

You posted about no fly lists and the hassle they cause some unfortunate people who probably share similar names with terrorist types. You dont think the hassle is worth it, and I disagree. Tribesman jumps in trying to use extraordinary rendition as a scare tactic. The two should not be confused!

[Tribesman]

Panzer , what I wrote has absolutely nothing to do with extraordinary rendition . It is an everyday occurence
For example , a Scottish fellow at work has recently been detained 9 times in three countries on his travels , under anti-terror legislation .
His link to terrorism .......? He bought a van from a car dealership in Dundalk , the person who owns the car dealership is a supporter of the 32C.S.C.
Since the Scotsman has had a finacial dealing with someone who is linked to a group that is linked to a group that is linked to terrorism , he is now a terrorist suspect .

[English assassin]

Right. Last time I flew to the U.S. we had to fill in a form. The last question was: 'Are you entering the United States with criminal or terrorist intent?' On a wild guess, I would say everybody on that Air France flight answered 'No'

The question that asks whether you played a part in the Nazi genocide of the Jews is my favourite. Simon Weisental must be kicking himself for wasting all those years on undercover work when he should just have been mailshotting questionaires.

Anyway, as usual we have a disconnect in the argument. I don't think Goof or Tribesman or anyone else is saying they like terrorism. I think they are saying no fly lists have no chance whatsoever of stopping terrorism. This is because terrorists tend not to list "terrorism" under "occupation" in their passports (damn their fiendish cunning, eh). Therefore the lists are simply annoying normal people, and providing employment for spooks, and should be stopped.

Its a very simple argument, and, even better, can easily be disproved by the no-fly-fans. If you could just give us the name of a terrorist who has been arrested because he or she was pulled aside in an airport as a result of being on the no fly list, I will admit I am wrong.

More generally, and I do not say this casually, I would rather live in a country where people are ocassionally killed by terrorists, than one in which spooks can mess with any aspect of my life without me being told about it or being able to do the slightest thing about it. Whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death", right wing dudes?