Israeli evacuations from the Gaza Strip [Archive]

Steppe Merc

08-17-2005, 03:01

I don't know any articale about this that I can find on the internet, but I've been reading about it in the newspapers.
Basically, Isrealis are being forcibly evacuated from lands by the Isreali government to appease the Palestinians (I think...). Many are resiting, or refusing to believe that it will really happen (or did happen, the articales were a few days old).

I'm not sure how to feel about this. I have a lot of problems with the Isreali government. But is it fair to the common people to be evacuated from their homes for peace? Isn't it sort of the same thing that the Isrealis did to the Palestinians in the first place? I don't know. Peace is obviously a very good goal, but will it help? And is forcible relocation justified?

Oh, and a side question. Is Isreal a theoracracy? I think that almost all Isrealis are Jewish. But the leaders obviously aren't Orthodox Jews... Are there any none Jewish Isrealis? Just something that I've never been able to find out...

And any real articales would be helpful in making sense of my ramblings. :bow:

Papewaio

08-17-2005, 03:12

It is a democracy.

There are a minority of Arab Israelis.

The land that the (mostly ultra right wing Jews) are being removed from are contested land. It is a complex issue, but it boils down to an attempt at peaceful resolution which the monoculture supporters on both sides are trying to derail.

Proletariat

08-17-2005, 03:17

In order to get some peace and quiet over there one day, somebody's gonna get kicked out of somewhere they live.

Aren't the settlers all getting tons of cash (which is basically from the US) in order to move? I'm usually on the Israeli's side on this stuff, but they can just shut up about this, imho.

sharrukin

08-17-2005, 05:30

The arabs are not willing to live with a Jewish minority in their midst while the Isreali's are.

PanzerJaeger

08-17-2005, 05:44

bmolsson

08-17-2005, 07:12

I don't think that Israel is getting smaller.

My view on this is simple. If you are going to have settlers, don't use jewish fundamentalists. My take on the whole problem is that Israel should annex all the occupied areas, integrate the palestinians and grant them Israeli citizenship. Terrorist should be arrested and prosecuted as any domestic criminal. If a period of special status is required, fine, but it's better to get it over with. A independent Palestine is to late to solve the problems.

Divinus Arma

08-17-2005, 07:28

I'm for an independant Palestine. I think the whole world is just sick of the the conflict already.

Conflicts are like throwing rocks in the water. The problme with Israel is that it is like throwing a boulder in the water all the time. Enough already. The ripples and splash affeect everyone. Like a fat guy.

yyyaargh

Tribesman

08-17-2005, 07:37

Aren't the settlers all getting tons of cash (which is basically from the US) in order to move?
Yes , and in many cases they got tons of cash to move into the illegal settlements in the first place .

Lazul

08-17-2005, 09:26

how about the rest of the world cut those two countrys of from the rest of the world untill there is peace.
Im so bloody sick of their medieval mentality and racist thinking. (Both sides)
Isolate the area and cut of their borders so they, they dont deserve better.

Al Khalifah

08-17-2005, 09:40

Another victory for the Jew hating arabs.

Every year Israel grows smaller and smaller in an attempt to appease the arabs.. and it never does.
Another injustice against the Jewish people.

Look at what is going on in plain terms: Jewish people are being evicted from their homes and being told they have to live in the Jewish region of the country in order to create living space for another people - the argument being that the Jews shouldn't be there in the first place.
What does this remind you of....

The whole exercise is futile anyway, since Hamas has said it will not end its campaign of terror until Israel is destroyed and the PLA has even stated that it will not be satisfied until Jerusalem has also been returned, which is something that the Israelis will not do. So this minority of people have been abused to appease a pointless whim of the uninformed majority. The Israeli government has been forced by international pressure to sell out its own people in order to appease the terrorists.

Templar Knight

08-17-2005, 12:49

Did you see the guy who was going to throw his baby out the window because he didn't want to leave 'the promised land'? :dizzy2:

Adrian II

08-17-2005, 13:02

I don't know any articale about this that I can find on the internet, but I've been reading about it in the newspapers.The Web is awash with articles, blogs and reports about the matter. I can't be bothered with 'your site is biased' games so I'll just give you a piece of my mind, knowing that you, Steppe Merc, will make up your own mind anyway.

I have always been of the opinion that those settlers should get the hell out of there, no matter what Tel Aviv, the U.S. or the Palestinian side have to say on the matter. They are just one more sore on the face of the Middle East. A good deal of them are Americans anyway, some don' t even speak Hebrew, others are kids who 'settle' at the expense of Daddy's credit card. I saw some images of their deportation on the news yesterday that merely confirmed what I knew and believed all along; mostly young hotheads and halfbrains shouting 'Gestapo!' and crying for their Mommies and Daddies when they were carried off by soldiers. Get a life, guys, preferably elsewhere than in Israel.

Idaho

08-17-2005, 13:27

Another victory for the Jew hating arabs.

Every year Israel grows smaller and smaller in an attempt to appease the arabs.. and it never does.

The arab terrorists have been telling their people they are going to kick out the Jews, and now they have a victory. :no:

What unmittigated tosh from start to finish. Your willful ignorance on this matter is beneath contempt.

How is Israel getting smaller? Gaza isn't even in Israel. Unless of course you subscribe to the concept of Greater Israel.

Let's look at the facts.

Gaza - 2 million Palestinians, 4,000 militant settlers. Settlers given free access to roads, freedom of movement, protection from the army. Given land which Palestinians were forciably cleared off. Israeli army shuts down main road through Gaza at will frequently. Palestinians subject to checkpoints (also routinely closed).

Compensation for Palestinians cleared off land - $0
Compensation for Israelis cleared off Palestinians land $140,000 a pop (plus more)

Grey_Fox

08-17-2005, 13:36

Yes , and in many cases they got tons of cash to move into the illegal settlements in the first place .

How was the Israeli occupation and colonisation of the Gaza strip illegal when the area was conquered in the Six-Day War. One must remember that Israel initiated hostilities because it's 'peaceful' neighbours were about to invade.

The methods the Israeli's used once there are not exactly benevolent, but the occupation is not illegal, else you could claim that the United States has been illegally occupied and should be returned to the native tribes that lived there (as well as any other conquest).

Proletariat

08-17-2005, 14:19

Can anyone say if this is actually garnering any goodwill from the Palestinians?

I can't tell from listening to the BBC interviews on the subject this morning, and if this is only appeasing the UN, it's pretty useless.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-17-2005, 14:24

Ronin

08-17-2005, 14:27

Gawain of Orkeny

08-17-2005, 14:31

there is a diference between living on a territory and imposing military checkpoints and other controls on the population of said territory....even if i don´t think the war mongers on the palestinian side will put the point so lightly.

The land was turned over to the Palestinians was is not? They could remove the checkpoints. The point is that Jews are not allowed to live in Palestine checkpoints or not. In fact they were going to and still might bulldoze these whole settlements as the Palestinans dont even want things built by Jews on their land. IT should be up to the settlers whether they want to move or not.

Idaho

08-17-2005, 14:40

Hamas claims victory. They say it cost 1000 Israeli lives in the latest Indifatah to take back Gazza and it may take another 100000 to take back all of Israel. This is an example of Palestinian bigotry. Once more how is that over a million arabs can live in Israel but no Jews may live in Palestine?

Who cares who claims victory? What does it matter? Just get on with the business of justice and peace.

If I help an old lady across the road and Al Qaida declare it a victory for the noble jihad - then that doesn't mean I shouldn't have helped the old lady. Such thinking is regressive and is the kind of zero sum nonsense that typifies the ME problem.

And as for the million arabs living in Israel - there are frequent political moves to have them deported and they are second class citizens in Israel - with poorer schools, poorer areas, etc.

Proletariat

08-17-2005, 14:44

If I help an old lady across the road and Al Qaida declare it a victory for the noble jihad - then that doesn't mean I shouldn't have helped the old lady. Such thinking is regressive and is the kind of zero sum nonsense that typifies the ME problem.

You know that isn't analgous, Idaho.

What is the point of making a concession for the aim of peace if your opponent is claiming it's their own terrorist actions that brought it about? Doesn't it seem like it's just encouraging more terrorism?

I'm all for the settlers moving out if it's actually going to make progress. If it's just encouraging the Palestinian 'only the Intifadah gets results' mentality, then what will this solve?

It seems the only people who are appreciating this move by the Israelis are the Western governments involved in the process.

Al Khalifah

08-17-2005, 14:55

A good deal of them are Americans anyway, some don' t even speak Hebrew, others are kids who 'settle' at the expense of Daddy's credit card.
So we must dislike them because they are rich? Is it morally acceptable to turf someone out of their home just because they or their parents are rich?

This is a completely token jesture that appeases no one. The Israeli street is unhappy because their country has lost land. The settlers are unhappy because they have lost their homes. Hamas are unhappy because they have sworn not to rest until the nation of Israel is no more. The PLA is unhappy because they still want a return to pre-Six Day war borders. The only people really happy about this are the U.N, because it makes them feel that they have done their little bit towards ensuring peace in the Middle East.

Hamas will now smell victory may be at hand. They will keep comitting attrocities and performing acts of violence while they think they will be rewarded for their disobedience. What happens when they demand something that cannot be given? Whatever happened to no negotiations with the terrorists?

In fact they were going to and still might bulldoze these whole settlements as the Palestinans dont even want things built by Jews on their land.
They have demanded that the homes be demolished, but that the greenhouses remain.

Kommodus

08-17-2005, 15:31

Without getting into the debate about whether forcing the Isreali citizens out of the Gaza Strip was a good idea or not, I will say this: those being evacuated should accept it peacefully, find a new place to live, and get on with their lives. I've seen that many of them are fighting tooth-and-nail to stay, and I simply don't see a point to it. Yes, their lives are being disrupted, but many other people in the world suffer far greater disruptions and still find ways to thrive without bitterness.

For that matter, I've never fully understood why the Palestinians living in refugee camps never managed to do this. Consider: the Middle East is a large area, and the vast majority of it is Arab-dominated. Why haven't most of the Palestinians gone to Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or one of the many other surrounding Arab nations to start new lives? Why continue to live in refugee camps, waiting for decades to return to a land that most will probably never be able to return to? Why not accept that what's done is done, and cannot be easily undone? (Once again, I will not get into the debate over whether Isreal's actions post-1948 were just or not.)

Could the answer possibly be that they will not even consider letting go of the idea of their "rightful homeland", and hold on to their bitterness as long as the land is under Isreal's control? If this is so, it seems to be causing a great deal of self-inflicted suffering. It's the result of being completely fixated on one particular idea of "the way things should be", when in fact there are many acceptable possibilities.

The conclusion I have been coming to lately is this: all land-ownership claims that are based on history are invalid. No one - neither the Isrealis, nor the Palestinians, nor the Native Americans, nor the Northern Irish, nor anyone else - can claim that any piece of land anywhere should be theirs, simply because their people occupied it in the past. The Isrealis can't claim that Jerusalem is theirs because they owned it in Biblical times, and the Palestinians can't claim that it's theirs because they lived there before WWII. No matter who you are, your people was not the first to occupy the land in which you now live, and will probably not be the last. Chances are your people's ancestors conquered the land in some ancient brutal conquest, displacing those living there at the time, who had also come to occupy it through an earlier, equally brutal conquest.

And I have only this to say about it: get over it. The injustices of the past will never be completely rectified while this world lasts. They don't have to be. What is required, then? I think that one of my favorite older bands, DC Talk, said it well in their song Colored People:

Ignorance has wronged some races
And vengeance is the Lord's
If we aspire to share this space
Repentance is the cure

And there it is. Repentence, forgiveness, reconcilliation - a willingness to put the past behind, to not demand recompence for past wrongs, and to change one's own ways for the good of others. Each of us must give up some of our own "rights" for the sake of peace and justice.

Back to the point: many Isrealis lost their homes in centuries of persecution all over the world. Many Palestinians have lost their homes in the continuing conflict with Isreal. Now some Isrealis are losing their homes as well. Many more people on both sides will lose their homes before all this is over. All should recognize their place in the great tragedy we call "human history" and should make the best of it. Flexibility and adaptability will go a long way towards easing the pain, while bitterness and stubborness will only make it worse.

Idaho

08-17-2005, 15:33

You know that isn't analgous, Idaho.

What is the point of making a concession for the aim of peace if your opponent is claiming it's their own terrorist actions that brought it about? Doesn't it seem like it's just encouraging more terrorism?

I'm all for the settlers moving out if it's actually going to make progress. If it's just encouraging the Palestinian 'only the Intifadah gets results' mentality, then what will this solve?

It seems the only people who are appreciating this move by the Israelis are the Western governments involved in the process.

Nonsensical and childish.

The Palestinians are more than Hamas. Of course any bit of progress the militants are going to claim as their own - so what? That is the ultimate dog in the manger. Don't change because someone we don't like may have wanted us to change.

Simple justice and peace demands that Israel abandon it's settlements and help construct a viable Palestinian state.

Idaho

08-17-2005, 15:38

For that matter, I've never fully understood why the Palestinians living in refugee camps never managed to do this. Consider: the Middle East is a large area, and the vast majority of it is Arab-dominated. Why haven't most of the Palestinians gone to Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or one of the many other surrounding Arab nations to start new lives? Why continue to live in refugee camps, waiting for decades to return to a land that most will probably never be able to return to? Why not accept that what's done is done, and cannot be easily undone? (Once again, I will not get into the debate over whether Isreal's actions post-1948 were just or not.)

Because the majority of them don't hold passports, are stateless without full citizenship rights? That the few who do escape are those with enough money to get citizenship or train to get decent jobs.

You have a woefully inadequte appreciation of what it means in this world to be a refugee. It aint Kansas mate - they can't just hitch a ride to the next state and do a few double shifts washing dishes to pay for their own college.

drone

08-17-2005, 15:44

My understanding was that all settlements in Gaza and the West Bank were illegal under international law. Those territories could be occupied to prevent militarization, but the land could not be settled by Israeli citizens, and the territories could not be annexed. So these people are only being asked to cease an illegal activity. Sharon had a big hand in creating the settlements, now he is ending them.

The manpower and risk to protect these settlements has exceeded the political desire to keep them. Sharon is just being realistic here. But I don't expect him to back down on any claims on current Israeli borders. Just as I don't expect the Palestinians to stop trying...

UglyandHasty

08-17-2005, 15:45

If the Israelis think they'll find peace by abandoning Gaza, i think they are sourly mistaking. The Palestinians radicals will see this move as a sign of weakness and will double their effort to blow more Israelis.

Redleg

08-17-2005, 15:50

Before jumping to conclusions what is going to happen - I will give it a month and then look at the actions of the Palenstine Authority.

Israel has made the first step in attempting to bring a peaceful solution to the problem - it is now the Palenstine people's turn.

Kagemusha

08-17-2005, 16:22

I agree with Redleg on this one.Lets see how it turns out.

Adrian II

08-17-2005, 16:24

Nonsensical and childish.On the contrary, I think it is rather sensible of Proletariat to demand measures that produce results, not mere gestures or postures. And this withdrawal is an encouraging move by Tel Aviv, whatever second or third thoughts and 'hidden' intentions Sharon may harbour.

The Palestinians have a problem of a different nature. That problem is the very real possibility that the Israeli withdrawal may be the sign for an overt conflict or even a civil war between Fatah and Hamas and their various affiliates and branches, starting in Gaza and spreading to the West Bank.

Al Khalifah

08-17-2005, 16:52

This is my great worry for a Palestinian state, Adrian. No one is really in control and the intentions of the different powerful groups are not in sync. There has already been extensive violence between the Palestinian security forces and Hamas, even with the common 'enemy' of Israel still in place.

If Palestine were made a state and Hamas comitted a major terrorist attack against Israel, Israel would demand retribution, but the Authority cannot control Hamas. What then?

Kagemusha

08-17-2005, 17:00

I think if Palestinian government wants that the rest of the world starts taking them seriously.They have to go after Hamas.And that means civil war.

drone

08-17-2005, 17:22

I've always wondered what affect Palestinian statehood would have politically. As it stands now, there is no real leadership, and thus no real responsibility. Given an actual government, they would be pressured heavily by the international community and Israel to crack down on Hamas and the like. But they would also gain political protection against Israeli attacks and assassinations, since Israel would need to encroach on their sovereignty to do these acts. Terror bombing would either be viewed as acts of war, or failure by the Palestine government to control it's population. They would have to crack down, or face a declaration of war from Israel.

Proletariat

08-17-2005, 17:52

Nonsensical and childish.

Oh.

Simple justice and peace demands that Israel abandon it's settlements and help construct a viable Palestinian state.

Translation: Just shut up Israelis, the sooner you get on with it there'll be peace.

So that's the brillantly nuanced insight you bring to the table?

The Israelis are doing their part, for the moment, and there's no good evidence that it's actually being noticed by the ones it's aimed at reconciling with.

There's alot of Jews that think this is a good idea, and the Jews who are fighting it tooth and nail are being kicked out by the Jewish government. Yet the only thing I've heard from the Palestinian camp is 'Sweet! Now let's keep it up and we'll get it all back!' and not much 'Well, at least it's a start.'

So back to post #15:

Can anyone say if this is actually garnering any goodwill from the Palestinians?

I'd really like to know.

Adrian II

08-17-2005, 18:03

If Palestine were made a state and Hamas committed a major terrorist attack against Israel, Israel would demand retribution, but the Authority cannot control Hamas. What then?The Authority needs outside help to bring its house in order, that much is obvious. Money, weapons, but also new corruption checks and political balances, a well-established free press and so many other things... dammit.

Idaho

08-17-2005, 18:04

Israel needs to do all the running on this one. They need to withdraw from the West Bank and give back Palestinian land stolen by settlers and the security wall. THey need to give back Palestinian water supplies. They need to stop running a brutal apartheid state.

Idaho

08-17-2005, 18:07

The Authority needs outside help to bring its house in order, that much is obvious. Money, weapons, but also new corruption checks and political balances, a well-established free press and so many other things... dammit.

Such things are the products of mature political societies. Palestine is a fragmented, empoverished, destroyed country - if that... You can't grow roses in rubble. You need to build the infrastructure and economy to get the political system to mature. Expecting it to happen the other way round is crazy.

Proletariat

08-17-2005, 18:08

They need to stop running a brutal apartheid state.

From the guy who earlier leveled this at another poster...

Such thinking is regressive and is the kind of zero sum nonsense that typifies the ME problem.

Proletariat

08-17-2005, 18:13

You can't grow roses in rubble. You need to build the infrastructure and economy to get the political system to mature. Expecting it to happen the other way round is crazy.

I guess the Israeli democracy must've developed in Miracle Gro Potting Soil.

You know who could build the infrastructure and economy, Idaho?

How about the Iranians or Saudis who are all filthy rich and claim that their Arabic brothers are being screwed by the Jews, yet don't seem to be doing much to get their so-called brothers out of refugee camps and into homes?

Adrian II

08-17-2005, 18:15

You need to build the infrastructure and economy to get the political system to mature.The fact of the matter is that all these elements are needed at the same time -- and the time is now -- in order for any kind of roadmap to make sense. You can not develop a mature Palestinian state in vitro and then hold it up to the Israelis and say 'Look, we did it!' The real issue is that Israel will have to contribute to the growth and stability of that state as much as the Palestinians themselves and various outside forces that are willing to help. And prior to all of that, of course, you need trust between the two governments and the two wider political elites. Trust grows through cooperation and mutually beneficial ventures. These are hard to find.

I have no solution.

Adrian II

08-17-2005, 18:20

How about the Iranians or Saudis who are all filthy rich and claim that their Arabic brothers are being screwed by the Jews, yet don't seem to be doing much to get their so-called brothers out of refugee camps and into homes?They have a vested interest in a continued conflict between Israel and Palestinians. Keeping them out is going to cost money, but letting them in on this issue any further than they are right now will be even costlier in the long run.

They would be part of the final equation, though -- a regional security arrangement supported by all the Security Council heavy-weights. That road is long, seemingly interminable, and the map for it hasn't even been drawn yet.

Goofball

08-17-2005, 19:01

Well, anybody who has been around this forum for a while knows that I am a staunch Israel supporter. And in this case I believe the Israelis are doing exactly the right thing. Only by taking unilateral action with no promise or guarantee of reciprocation will either side be able to get the peace process back on track. And since the Arabs clearly will not be the ones to take such unilateral action, it falls to Israel to do it.

Kudos to the Israeli leadership on this one.

I was watching BBC World last night and they were interviewing the Arab League (or whatever its called) Ambassador to the UN. He had no words of approval for the move, and only stated a number of times in a number of different ways that the Israelis need to do more. The interviewer asked him at least five times (in one way or another) if he didn't think that maybe it was time for the Palestinians to try making even the smallest of gestures toward a lasting peace, and he dodged the question every time, instead repeating the all too familiar refrain that the Israelis needed to do more and implying that he did not trust the motivation behind the pullout.

Hopefully, this is not the attitude of all Arabs.

Goofball

08-17-2005, 19:05

PanzerJaeger

08-17-2005, 20:34

What unmittigated tosh from start to finish. Your willful ignorance on this matter is beneath contempt.

Tosh huh! Thats cute, where are you from? ~D

How is Israel getting smaller? Gaza isn't even in Israel. Unless of course you subscribe to the concept of Greater Israel.

Your ignorance of the 6 day war is "beneath contempt".

Let's look at the facts.

Now thats "tosh"! :laugh4:

Gaza - 2 million Palestinians, 4,000 militant settlers. Settlers given free access to roads, freedom of movement, protection from the army. Given land which Palestinians were forciably cleared off. Israeli army shuts down main road through Gaza at will frequently. Palestinians subject to checkpoints (also routinely closed).

How many arabs live in Israel? Possibly if the palestinians acted in a mature and civilized manner, as the israeli arabs do, they wont be treated like children.

Compensation for Palestinians cleared off land - $0
Compensation for Israelis cleared off Palestinians land $140,000 a pop (plus more)

Thats the cost of war.

Steppe Merc

08-17-2005, 21:29

How about the Iranians or Saudis who are all filthy rich and claim that their Arabic brothers are being screwed by the Jews, yet don't seem to be doing much to get their so-called brothers out of refugee camps and into homes?
Iranians are Arabic? Some are, but I think there is still a good amount of Iranian blood in there.

Before jumping to conclusions what is going to happen - I will give it a month and then look at the actions of the Palenstine Authority.

Israel has made the first step in attempting to bring a peaceful solution to the problem - it is now the Palenstine people's turn.
These are probably my feelings as well.

Tribesman

08-17-2005, 21:31

How was the Israeli occupation and colonisation of the Gaza strip illegal
Grey fox ; military occupation is not procluded , transfering your civilian population into occupied land definately is . Israel is signataory to the documents that prohibit it . So the settlements are unquestionably illegal .

Proletariat

08-17-2005, 21:34

Look at who's celebrating (http://freund.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/08/look_whos_celeb.html)

Husar

08-17-2005, 21:59

I guess the Israeli democracy must've developed in Miracle Gro Potting Soil.

You know who could build the infrastructure and economy, Idaho?

How about the Iranians or Saudis who are all filthy rich and claim that their Arabic brothers are being screwed by the Jews, yet don't seem to be doing much to get their so-called brothers out of refugee camps and into homes?I agree.

Look at who's celebratingI really wonder what the Israelis will do if their steps towards peace will result in even more terrorism? Maybe they get a really good excuse this way to kill a whole lot of terrorists, though I wouldn´t see that as much of a loss...

Ser Clegane

08-17-2005, 22:12

Look at who's celebrating (http://freund.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/08/look_whos_celeb.html)

You can tell a lot about a political or historical event by looking at who’s celebrating it – and in this case it should be obvious that anything which gives Hamas encouragement is most assuredly a dangerous and foolhardy mistake.

IMO it is a bit narrow-minded of the author to believe that anything that is celebrated by terrorists is by default a mistake.

Any action should be judged by its own and not by the way another group judges it.

Beirut

08-17-2005, 22:39

Possibly if the palestinians acted in a mature and civilized manner, as the israeli arabs do, they wont be treated like children.

Who are the Israelis to judge the Palestinians?

Are you implying that the Israelis, who routinely flout international law, do not subscribe to nuclear weapons treaties, who use collective punishment, who pose as allied nationals while committing murder, who have kept an entire people imprisoned for decades, who steal land and water and resources for themselves and deny all these things to the people who live on the land, who use torture and arbitrary arrest and detention, who have had at least two Prime Ministers who were former terrorists, who conspired with apartheid South Africa in illegal weapons dealings, are so much more....

Are these the people you say should stand in judgement over the Palestinians?

Indeed.

Al Khalifah

08-17-2005, 22:50

They have a vested interest in a continued conflict between Israel and Palestinians. Keeping them out is going to cost money, but letting them in on this issue any further than they are right now will be even costlier in the long run.
The status quo of the other Arab nations are probably completely happy for Palestine to remain in its current state. As soon as Palestine becomes a state, it can declare war and be declared war upon. These leaders do not want a war with Israel, yet if Israel and Palestine went to war (likely), the street would force them to their brothers' aid.

Careful Beiruit, America does lots of those things to.

Goofball

08-17-2005, 22:54

Who are the Israelis to judge the Palestinians?

Are you implying that the Israelis, who routinely flout international law, do not subscribe to nuclear weapons treaties, who use collective punishment, who pose as allied nationals while committing murder, who have kept an entire people imprisoned for decades, who steal land and water and resources for themselves and deny all these things to the people who live on the land, who use torture and arbitrary arrest and detention, who have had at least two Prime Ministers who were former terrorists, who conspired with apartheid South Africa in illegal weapons dealings, are so much more....

Are these the people you say should stand in judgement over the Palestinians?

The short answer?

Yes.

At any rate, I find it telling that your only contribution to this thread, the topic of which is an unprecedented, unilateral act on the part of the Israelis aimed at beginning a lasting peace, has been to step in and level a broadside at the evil, murdering Israelis.

What have your pet Palestinians done lately (or even ever) to try to solve this problem? Other than, of course, killing Jews, which I guess would be their ideal solution in the end...

drone

08-17-2005, 23:20

The status quo of the other Arab nations are probably completely happy for Palestine to remain in its current state. As soon as Palestine becomes a state, it can declare war and be declared war upon. These leaders do not want a war with Israel, yet if Israel and Palestine went to war (likely), the street would force them to their brothers' aid.Not only that, but the conflict as it stands serves as a nice diversion for their populace from their own internal problems.

Idaho

08-17-2005, 23:34

So where are the stories on the news about crazed religious terrorists gunning down innocent people? Seems as if it was the other side all the usual suspects on this forum would be ramming the story down our throats and telling us it 'typified muslims/arabs/darkies'.

3 Killed by Gaza Settler (http://www.channel4.com/news/content/news-storypage.jsp?id=1379730)

Gawain of Orkeny

08-17-2005, 23:35

Such things are the products of mature political societies. Palestine is a fragmented, empoverished, destroyed country - if that... You can't grow roses in rubble. You need to build the infrastructure and economy to get the political system to mature. Expecting it to happen the other way round is crazy.

And of course this is entirely the fault of the Israelis.

Israel needs to do all the running on this one. They need to withdraw from the West Bank and give back Palestinian land stolen by settlers and the security wall. THey need to give back Palestinian water supplies. They need to stop running a brutal apartheid state.

Same tripe again. Hell even I dont lay all the blame at the feet of the Palerstinians And you wonder why you get poked ~;) Of course the noble Palestinians are totally peace loving and have brought none of this upon themselves.

Idaho

08-17-2005, 23:38

What have your pet Palestinians done lately (or even ever) to try to solve this problem? Other than, of course, killing Jews, which I guess would be their ideal solution in the end...

What? What?

What have those occupied, bombed, shot at, imprisoned, had their schools demolished, businesses closed, economy ruined, any vestige of government blown to pieces, etc.

You comment beggars belief quite frankly. I don't think you really have a clue what is going on over there.

Beirut

08-17-2005, 23:41

The short answer?

Yes.

At any rate, I find it telling that your only contribution to this thread, the topic of which is an unprecedented, unilateral act on the part of the Israelis aimed at beginning a lasting peace, has been to step in and level a broadside at the evil, murdering Israelis.

What have your pet Palestinians done lately (or even ever) to try to solve this problem? Other than, of course, killing Jews, which I guess would be their ideal solution in the end...

You may find it as telling as you wish. Actually, I have not been vocal on these issues of late since keeping the Frontroom civil has taken up all my forum time.

Also, I admit to being saturated with news of the poor suffering settlers on TV, radio and in the paper. For weeks it has been front page news, 99% of it focussed on the plight of the oppressed settlers being forced to take hundreds of thousands of dollars to move out of illegal settlements where they took the best land, most of the water, and lorded over the vast majority like the dark days of South Africa.

So precious little has been written about the true suffering of the Palestinian people caused by these settlers and I find it... telling, that all the attention is focussed on those who took so much, kept it all, and then got paid to leave it behind after being careful to scorch as much Earth as possible before departing.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-17-2005, 23:41

What have those occupied, bombed, shot at, imprisoned, had their schools demolished, businesses closed, economy ruined, any vestige of government blown to pieces, etc.

Again why has this happened. Is it your postition that Jews just hate Palestinians ? Didnt the samething happen to Germany and Japan in ww2? Are we then to blame for the misery of the German and Japanese people at that time or is the blame to be put where it belongs . Upon their leaders and in fact they themselves for following these leaders?

Gawain of Orkeny

08-17-2005, 23:49

Heres a little breaking news on whats happening there.

Israeli Shoots Randomly Into West Bank Palestinians; 3 Killed

Israels reply

Earlier, an Israeli settler allegedly killed three Palestinian workers in the West Bank. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said the settler committed "Jewish terror."
The shooter reportedly was a man who drove Palestinian workers to an industrial site each day. Media reports said he stopped at a security checkpoint and took a guard's gun at knifepoint before opening fire.

The gunman was arrested.

Palestinian reply

A Hamas spokesman said the killings won't "pass without tough punishment," but the Palestinian militant group also said it doesn't want to hinder the Israeli withdrawal.

LINK (http://www.wesh.com/news/4862381/detail.html)

How nice of them.

Gaza Protester Sets Herself On Fire

A woman protesting the Gaza pullout is said to be in serious condition after setting herself on fire at a roadblock in southern Israel.

Hospital officials said she was burned over 70 percent of her body. She had been carrying a sign protesting the Gaza action.

Goofball

08-17-2005, 23:50

Also, I admit to being saturated with news of the poor suffering settlers on TV, radio and in the paper. For weeks it has been front page news, 99% of it focussed on the plight of the oppressed settlers being forced to take hundreds of thousands of dollars to move out of illegal settlements where they took the best land, most of the water, and lorded over the vast majority like the dark days of South Africa.

In this we are at least in partial agreement. I do not sympathize with the settlers who are actively resisting the evacuation, but my lack of sympathy stems from different reasons. The way I see it, the Israeli gov't is trying to take steps that will hopefully lead to an improvement in the lives of all Israelis and Palestinians over the long term. The settlers who are resisting are no different from any other special interest group who don't give a shite about what's good for everybody else, as long as they get their way.

Goofball

08-18-2005, 00:05

What? What?

What have those occupied, bombed, shot at, imprisoned, had their schools demolished, businesses closed, economy ruined, any vestige of government blown to pieces, etc.

You comment beggars belief quite frankly. I don't think you really have a clue what is going on over there.

You're right, I have no clue what's going on over there. Nor, apparently, does anybody who supports Israel.

~:rolleyes:

Give your head a shake. My opinion is simply different from yours.

This is not a matter of who has committed more atrocities against whom. If we want to get into that, you and I could trade links all day, trying to one-up each other:

Idaho: "I'll open with one Israeli tank round fired into a crowd of innocent Palestinians."

Goofball: "I'll see your tank round and raise you one Palestinian suicide bomber blowing up a busload of Israeli schoolchildren."

But where does that get us?

We can argue all day about "who started it," but the reality exists that the situation exists as it does, and it desperately needs fixing no matter who cast the first stone.

As I said before, it's very telling (I know how much you like that word, Beirut) that the Israelis are the ones who actually seem to be trying to do something about opening up the doors to peace, and all anybody does is criticize them even more for it.

Good attitude.

Steppe Merc

08-18-2005, 00:08

Careful Beiruit, America does lots of those things to.
Which I'm sure he is aware of. Besides, he's Canadian.

Proletariat

08-18-2005, 01:36

Seems as if it was the other side all the usual suspects on this forum would be ramming the story down our throats and telling us it 'typified muslims/arabs/darkies'.

Am I a usual suspect? Since you commented that my earlier post was non-sensical and childish, where I was asking if this move had simply garnered any Palestinian goodwill, you haven't responded once.

Nice red herring, though.

Papewaio

08-18-2005, 02:07

The short answer?

Yes.

At any rate, I find it telling that your only contribution to this thread, the topic of which is an unprecedented, unilateral act on the part of the Israelis aimed at beginning a lasting peace, has been to step in and level a broadside at the evil, murdering Israelis.

What have your pet Palestinians done lately (or even ever) to try to solve this problem? Other than, of course, killing Jews, which I guess would be their ideal solution in the end...

You are blaming the victim for fighting back.

By your thinking the Polish Jews who fought back in the Ghettos where in error.

The error of the Palestinians has been to attack civilians...terrorism.

The error of the Israelis has been to attack civilians... collateral damage.

When occupying a land you have an obligation to treat the occupied humanely. The failure to do so and the resulting backlash is the primarily the fault of the occupier, however the acts of terrorism I will always lay back at the people who did it.

Get the ultra-right settlers out of the occupied territories. Tighten up the Israeli borders. The resources used to defend the 8000 in the occupied zone will be much better used to defend the rest of Israel on their borders.

If Palestine then decides to mount an invasion against Israel proper, then Israel should get the full support of the west. To the point that Israel should then become the greater Israel with the caveat that all in its borders become citizens with access to all the basics needed to live and learn.

Leet Eriksson

08-18-2005, 02:24

Arab media is all over it:

Sharon: Champion of all Arabs (temporarily)

Settlers: naughty kids

Palestinians: Freedom at last!

American Media (i watch primarily CNN):

Settlers: Heroes

Sharon: Bad

Palestinians: ditto.

On another note i support the isrealis wrecking the settlers homes, first their homes are compact not fit for palestinan Ashayer families (1 Asheera consists of all relatives and friends of relatives and relatives of relatives... well you get the picture) and secondly the settlers themselves have already stripped their homes bare, so there is not much in there to make it a viable living place, i mean even water sinks and toilets got removed, might as well take the building apart stone by stone and take it with you, third if the buildings are demolished any reasonings by the settlers to return will be eroded.

Everything seems well for now, but i hear rumors settlers will be relocated to the west bank, if thats true, thats creating a whole load of trouble by itself.

Beirut

08-18-2005, 02:57

On another note i support the isrealis wrecking the settlers homes, first their homes are compact not fit for palestinan Ashayer families (1 Asheera consists of all relatives and friends of relatives and relatives of relatives... well you get the picture) and secondly the settlers themselves have already stripped their homes bare, so there is not much in there to make it a viable living place, i mean even water sinks and toilets got removed, might as well take the building apart stone by stone and take it with you, third if the buildings are demolished any reasonings by the settlers to return will be eroded.

It's nothing but a policy scorched earth. It's despicable, selfish, petty, and imparts the notion that they are removing their goods so that criminals will not profit from them after they leave. In fact it was the settlers who were the criminals and the Palestinians the victims of their crimes.

It wouldn't surprise me a nickel's worth if wells were destroyed and half-grown crops bulldozed.

Petty, petty, petty. Take the $350,000 payoff, bulldoze the house, plow over the crops, tear out the flowers, cement the well, and tell everyone what a bunch of bastards the Palestinians are who will be living on the scorched earth pile of dirt where a perfectly good house was that was torn down for no other reason than pride and spite.

sharrukin

08-18-2005, 04:45

Idaho

08-18-2005, 10:57

Heres a little breaking news on whats happening there.

Israels reply (Sharon quoted)

Palestinian reply (Hamas quoted)

How nice of them.

Rather disingenious really. Why quote an institutional source for the first and a radical one for the second? Why not get a quote from Sharon and compare it with Abbas? Then why not compare Hamas' quote with one from one of the ultra nationalist groups?

This is typical of the kinds of reporting we are subjected to daily.

Perhaps we should commission a survey that asks Israelis if they 'understand why the settler shot 3 Palestinians'. When 35% say yes we can have big headlines "35% of Isrealis symptathise with Jewish terror".

Husar

08-18-2005, 14:07

Some of you just can´t stop hating one side, can you?
If I understand that correctly, Israel was to be destroyed many years ago, but they won and occupied some land, terror began. Now both sides didn´t go one step back for years, showing weakness is deadly I guess. Finally Israel wants to give some of the land back to the Palestinians, their first step towards peace.
Now we have innocent Palestinians who just want to live in peace and don´t support terrorism, I think it´s good for them and they deserve some good land to live on.
Then there are Hamas and other terrorists, who should shut up and stop but will most definitely go on with their attacks in order to destroy Israel. I hope their support will stop, making them unable to go on.
On the other side there is the Israeli government that made a good step, whatever the reason was.
Then there are the israeli soldiers who have a hard job throwing settlers out who act like nice families and innocent poor people making female soldiers cry, I wish them strength to throw them out anyway. ~D
And finally we got the settlers who don´t want to go(I think there are some who are gone already, I´m fine with them), they should just stop crying in my oppinion and be thrown out. I always wondered how one can feel comfortable by demanding soldiers to secure them on occupied land and to demand a state to make their living in a war zone as comfortable as possible. That´s just stupid, they can´t even claim any "connection to their homeland" because it isn´t their homeland, and btw what is a homeland that is routinely hit by mortar-shells? :dizzy2:

Just my oppinion, there are people to blame for so many things on both sides, but if we(and they) are not able to forgive and work on a solution, there will be no solution. You can´t have peace if you can´t forgive your enemies. ~:handball:

Al Khalifah

08-18-2005, 14:44

Idaho

08-18-2005, 15:29

Yeah but the point is that the present for Palestinians is sh*t and for Isrealis is far better.

Where would you rather live:
a:http://wvl.indymedia.org/uploads/2004/03/hebron.jpgalri1f.jpg
or
b:http://www.col.fr/judeotheque/images/tel-aviv.jpg

If you really can't decide between the two - these minor factors might just swing it:

In a you can't go out at night because of a military curfew. In a you have no direct access to ports or airports. In fact you might not even have a passport. B is sadly lacking in tanks and checkpoints. B also lacks a's honest, rough and ready approach to healthcare and schooling. A is a bit duff for work - as even if you get a job you might not be able to turn up reliably if the military shut down the roads (frequently). However A is excellent if you are bothered by relatives dropping by - as the chances are they will be in different towns - or even different countries with little chance of ever being allowed to visit.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-18-2005, 16:17

Again the Palestians made their bed now they have to sleep in it. I have no sympathy for such a nation of terrorists. Yes I know their not all terrorists but they certainly dont do much to stop it. This goes for most of the middle east. I believe most love this and celebrate everytime a Jew is killed. I dont think most of them want to live in peace unless its one in which Israel no longer exists. They oppose this terror about as much as southeners oppossed slavery. They wouldnt be living is this squalor if they behaved like civilized human beings.

Idaho

08-18-2005, 16:27

Well at last Gawain has pinned his colours to the mast. One small minded bigot served up with fries - come and collect your order.

sharrukin

08-18-2005, 16:35

Well at last Gawain has pinned his colours to the mast. One small minded bigot served up with fries - come and collect your order.

Make that two small minded bigots and could I have some gravy with the fries?

The Palestinians are largely the architects of their own misfortune! And what about those poor Al Qaeda folks having to live in fear, running for their lives? They have to live like hunted animals! Shouldn't we feel sorry for them as well?

When the majority of Palestinians get a clue and finally figure out that killing Jews isn't helping THEM, then they might get some of my sympathy. The dancing in the streets when somebody gets murdered however suggests they have a ways to go.

Goofball

08-18-2005, 16:44

Well at last Gawain has pinned his colours to the mast. One small minded bigot served up with fries - come and collect your order.

Wow. You need to step things down a notch there Tex. The disco's open all night, no need to make an ass of yourself in the first five minutes. You have been the one putting on the best demonstration of small-mindedness with your incessant "Israelis are all evil/Palestinians are all innocent victims" chant.

You like pictures pictures, eh?

How about this one:

http://www.jta.org/storage/articleimages/13868.jpg

or this one:

http://www.bized.ac.uk/images/suicide_bomb.jpg

or this one:

http://www.geocities.com/neomi59/098.jpg

Hope you enjoyed viewing the handy-work of your Palestinian "victims."

Idaho

08-18-2005, 16:53

Wow. You need to step things down a notch there Tex. The disco's open all night, no need to make an ass of yourself in the first five minutes. You have been the one putting on the best demonstration of small-mindedness with your incessant "Israelis are all evil/Palestinians are all innocent victims" chant.

Well the disco may have only just started - but you certainly seemed to have smoked your full stash of crack already.

When did I say Israelis are evil? When? In fact quite the opposite all I have stated is that the Palestinians are not evil but thoroughly shafted by all those around them. That obviously cuts against the grain of the endless pro-Israeli propaganda you swallow daily and hence you get your knickers in a twist.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-18-2005, 16:58

When did I say Israelis are evil? When?

I suppose you never gave that impression.

In fact quite the opposite all I have stated is that the Palestinians are not evil but thoroughly shafted by all those around them.

We all agree on that . When are the Palestinains going to realise it and stop blaming the Jews?

That obviously cuts against the grain of the endless pro-Palestinian propaganda you swallow daily and hence you get your knickers in a twist.

Goofball

08-18-2005, 17:07

When did I say Israelis are evil? When?

Hmmm.

They need to withdraw from the West Bank and give back Palestinian land stolen by settlers and the security wall. THey need to give back Palestinian water supplies. They need to stop running a brutal apartheid state.

My mistake, I guess. I just assumed that when you accuse people of stealing water and land and of running a brutal apartheid state, that the implication is that you believe them to be evil.

Mea culpa.

Steppe Merc

08-18-2005, 17:10

Gawain and Goof, I agree that the Palestinians need to stop the terrorists in their midsts, as well as trying to stop just blaiming Isreal. But couldn't it also be said that the Isreali people should stop allowing their government to comment highly illegal and imoral actions against the Palestinians?

Gawain of Orkeny

08-18-2005, 17:26

But couldn't it also be said that the Isreali people should stop allowing their government to comment highly illegal and imoral actions against the Palestinians?

Excuse me but what is the name of this thread again? Last I checked Israel was a democracy. ~;)

Steppe Merc

08-18-2005, 17:35

Idaho

08-18-2005, 17:57

Excuse me but what is the name of this thread again? Last I checked Israel was a democracy. ~;)

Really? I don't recall anyone in Greater Israel being granted a vote in the elections. That's either an admission that Greater Israel isn't actually Israel but occupied land or that Israel isn't a democracy.

Idaho

08-18-2005, 18:00

Hmmm.
My mistake, I guess. I just assumed that when you accuse people of stealing water and land and of running a brutal apartheid state, that the implication is that you believe them to be evil.

Mea culpa.

None of those are accusations. They are all facts. Which one isn't true?

I didn't specifically accuse people, I addressed my points to the state of Israel - do keep up, it's tiresome to have to spell everything out twice.

Goofball

08-18-2005, 18:03

One thing I would like to see:

In the news coverage I have seen, the Israeli soldiers/police have for the most part been handling this with professionalism and courtesy. Even in situations where militant protestors have been right in their faces calling them Nazis, they have replied with a smile "It's very hot out today sir, please accept this bottle of water."

What I would love to see is for them use the same tactics in future confrontations with Palestinian protestors as well. It would go a long way towards easing tension.

Kaiser of Arabia

08-18-2005, 18:30

Gaza is Israeli land, why Israel is giving into the Terrorists in the Palestinian "government" is beyond me.

Steppe Merc

08-18-2005, 18:34

Why is it Isreali land?

King Henry V

08-18-2005, 18:37

I feel sorry for the soldiers. They are just doing their duty and having acid thrown in their faces is just cruel.

Idaho

08-18-2005, 19:30

Gaza is Israeli land, why Israel is giving into the Terrorists in the Palestinian "government" is beyond me.
There is so much that is beyond you Kaiser that there simply isn't hours in the day or space on the server mate.

Ser Clegane

08-18-2005, 19:35

Now, now - I think the topic of this thread gives ample opportunity to focus on the issues without having to resort to personal jabs.

Husar

08-18-2005, 19:40

Perhaps we should turf some Americans out of their homes so we can restore the land to its rightful owners? If we're having a bleeding hearts moment for some really really oppressed people... Or maybe we should try to live in the now rather than bringing up the past.

Here in Germany we throw people out of their houses just because there have been some trees thousands of years ago... ~D

Don Corleone

08-18-2005, 20:28

Certain people I highly respect have pointed out that I'm acting like a spoiled brat (in European parlance, a wanker), so my self-imposed exile is over. What better thread to pick to start posting again...

Personally, I think Sharon is doing the right thing, and I hope he will continue by pulling out of the West Bank (Jersualsem is NOT part of the West Bank, btw). I am curious however about a couple of things...

-If the Palestinian Authority is serious about disarming militants and putting an end to violence, why are they letting them march through the streets in the hundreds, brandishing weapons (courtesy of CNN).

-If Israel does withdraw, and the attacks continue, are you all going to go apeshit if the Israelis close their borders to Palestine? If so, is it your position that nations at war should always be forced to maintain an open border? If not, what makes this case different?

-This one is for serious debate... how long do people give Abbas? My guess is less than 18 months. Hamas, which despite Idaho's assertions, is no lunatic fringe group. They're actually one of the largest parties, if not the largest party.

-Finally, again, this one is for serious discussion: Beirut, Idaho and other Palestinian advocates.... once the pullout is complete, will you recognize Israel's right to exist within their 1948 boundaries?

By the way, Idaho, you might want to find some "Evil Jews" propaganda shots. Your photograph of how easy the Israelis have it shows a large & ornately decorated mosque, right in the foreground.

Steppe Merc

08-18-2005, 20:53

-Finally, again, this one is for serious discussion: Beirut, Idaho and other Palestinian advocates.... once the pullout is complete, will you recognize Israel's right to exist within their 1948 boundaries?
That would certaintly be fair, I think. It is insane to think that all Isrealis must leave the Middle East entirely.

Idaho

08-18-2005, 21:06

-Finally, again, this one is for serious discussion: Beirut, Idaho and other Palestinian advocates.... once the pullout is complete, will you recognize Israel's right to exist within their 1948 boundaries?

By the way, Idaho, you might want to find some "Evil Jews" propaganda shots. Your photograph of how easy the Israelis have it shows a large & ornately decorated mosque, right in the foreground.

On the first point - I really don't think my acknowledgement of Israeli sovereignty is going to be pivotal in the ME peace process ~D

As to what the blazes you are on about in the second point - yahweh only knows.

Don Corleone

08-18-2005, 21:08

Sorry, I misspoke. I should have said 'better photos of "Evil Jews". Were you not the one who posted photo a and photo b? The people in charge in photo b not only allow people different then them to live there, they have a mosque. The folks in photo a don't even allow Jews to live there.

And regardless of the affect it will have on the middle-east peace process, humor me Idaho. I feel you are far more influential than you give yourself credit for. Does Israel have the right to exist within 1948 boundaries?

Goofball

08-18-2005, 21:36

It's nothing but a policy scorched earth. It's despicable, selfish, petty, and imparts the notion that they are removing their goods so that criminals will not profit from them after they leave. In fact it was the settlers who were the criminals and the Palestinians the victims of their crimes.

It wouldn't surprise me a nickel's worth if wells were destroyed and half-grown crops bulldozed.

Petty, petty, petty. Take the $350,000 payoff, bulldoze the house, plow over the crops, tear out the flowers, cement the well, and tell everyone what a bunch of bastards the Palestinians are who will be living on the scorched earth pile of dirt where a perfectly good house was that was torn down for no other reason than pride and spite.

Petty, eh?

Let me ask you this:

Let's just suppose for a moment that the next time there is a Quebec sovereignty vote, the nasty, dirty, treasonous separatists (*spits*) win the 50% +1 vote that they need and declare Quebec a separate nation. Suppose even further, that our federal government gives in not only to their demand for independence, but also to their (hypothetical) demand that all filthy anglophones get the hell out of Quebec.

So, the Canadian government orders you to abandon your comfy little homestead in the woods, in order that it can be taken over by its "rightful" owners: the hungry-looking bunch of francophones who are hovering with eager anticipation around the end of your driveway.

Do you:

a) Send your wife and kids to the safety of Ontario, hang a sign on your front door that says "BRING IT ON, SEPERATIST PIGS!" then barricade yourself in your house with a years' supply of canned food, a gas mask, a few trusty rifles, and a buttload of ammunition;

b) Decide it's not worth dieing over, but make damned sure that no francophones will enjoy the fruits of your labor by tossing everything you possibly can into a cube van, then setting a few well-placed C-4 charges to destroy everything you couldn't take with you;

or

c) Say to yourself "Well, good manners dictate that I make the new owners of my property as comfortable as I can." With this in mind, you ensure all the bathrooms have fresh rolls of bum-wad, there are a couple of cases of Labatt 50 in the fridge, the cupboard is full of Jos Louis, and that you have changed the language setting on your PC to French. Then, after placing a sign on your door saying "Bienvenue, mes amis!" you put your car keys in the mailbox and set off on foot, satisfied that the new French owners will find your place to their liking.

Ronin

08-18-2005, 21:38

Does Israel have the right to exist within 1948 boundaries?

purelly on a matter of principle....i´d say that no...the state of israel has no right to exist for 2 reasons:

1st - i don´t think a shared religion is enough significant motive to define the existance of a country or society
2nd - the UN didn´t have the right to give these people that land.

*please wait before you start throwing the rocks*

having said that....

one cannot deny the fact that there are generations of people that were born in Israel and so have no other place to go...that is their home, so the state cannot be disbanded for that very simple reason.

So i´d say that the 1948 boundaries are an acceptable solution for the situation, the people that were born there have their rights to citinzenship protected and the impact of the country on the region is reduced.

p.s.-the 1948 lines can´t hold the current population?.....the people that moved there can get the **** out....they have no right to the land just because some old book says they do.

PanzerJaeger

08-18-2005, 21:43

When the majority of Palestinians get a clue and finally figure out that killing Jews isn't helping THEM, then they might get some of my sympathy. The dancing in the streets when somebody gets murdered however suggests they have a ways to go.

But killing Jews has helped them!

Killing those evil Jews has caused Israel to give back land it rightfully won after it was attacked.

Killing Jews has made them the pet cause of the arab world.

Killing Jews has garnered them enormous sympathy in Europe - who would have thought.. ~;)

Simply look at what they won today. Thats the direct result of their continued killing of Jews. Why in the world would you stop killing them if they continually cede land for a nonexistant peace?

We shouldnt see whats happened as anything but a palestinian victory. Im sure they smell the same blood I do.

Don Corleone

08-18-2005, 21:46

purelly on a matter of principle....i´d say that no...the state of israel has no right to exist for 2 reasons:

1st - i don´t think a shared religion is enough significant motive to define the existance of a country or society
2nd - the UN didn´t have the right to give these people that land.

*please wait before you start throwing the rocks*

having said that....

one cannot deny the fact that there are generations of people that were born in Israel and so have no other place to go...that is their home, so the state cannot be disbanded for that very simple reason.

So i´d say that the 1948 boundaries are an acceptable solution for the situation, the people that were born there have their rights to citinzenship protected and the impact of the country on the region is reduced.

p.s.-the 1948 lines can´t hold the current population?.....the people that moved there can get the **** out....they have no right to the land just because some old book says they do.

Ronin, interesting take, and no, no rocks. You do of course realize that it was the same authority, the UN, in 1948, that created Palestine as well? To be fair, were we to 'set things back to the way they were', that entire region (Syria, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon) would need to be returned to Turkey?

Aside from which, who said Israel was a nation because of a shared religion? 15% of Israelis are muslims and another 10% are Christians.

What I'm trying to highlight is if you don't at least pay lip service to 1948, we're delaying violence, not ending anything.

Goofball

08-18-2005, 21:49

Ronin, interesting take, and no, no rocks. You do of course realize that it was the same authority, the UN, in 1948, that created Palestine as well?

Not to mention Jordan. That was created at the same time as well. I guess they have no right to exists as a nation either since that division was also seemingly based on nothing more than common religion.

Ronin

08-18-2005, 22:08

Ronin, interesting take, and no, no rocks. You do of course realize that it was the same authority, the UN, in 1948, that created Palestine as well? To be fair, were we to 'set things back to the way they were', that entire region (Syria, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon) would need to be returned to Turkey?

Aside from which, who said Israel was a nation because of a shared religion? 15% of Israelis are muslims and another 10% are Christians.

What I'm trying to highlight is if you don't at least pay lip service to 1948, we're delaying violence, not ending anything.

a lot of bad decisions were taken around the same time considering territories in that region yes......i´m not entirely sure but i seem to remember the palestinians having some conection to the area(populations in the time prior to 1948) but it´s a little foggy so correct me if i´m wrong but it doesn´t seem as such an artificial solution as the israel one where the jewish population was simply "dumped" into that area purelly based on old testament "documentation" if one could call it that.

like i said you can´t 'set things back to the way they were', you have to take into consideration the rights of people that were born in those states, and those people have rights, so i´d say we´re stuck with the present countries in the area.

i´m aware that not 100% of the israely population is jewish, but the state was formed with the intent of being a home for the jewish population (a purelly religious decision in it´s foundation), the original idea was that, of course over the years imigration has changed the face of the country somewhat.

of course anyone can see(i think) that the situation as it is today can´t stand, expancionism in that area can´t be tolerated( i can´t really see how countries that here given their original territory on a silver platter think they have the right to try and take more from other) so a reversal to 1948 borders could at least help smooth the situation.

of course that the nutjubs in the extremist side of the palestinian side won´t be happy with just that (and the nutjobs on the israely side REALLY won´t be happy) but i think that the moderate majority can come to an agreement, and then the lunatics on both sides will be easier to deal with.

Don Corleone

08-18-2005, 22:21

Well, Ronin, surprise, surprise, I think we agree more than we disagree. But, I do want to bring up a couple of points:

1) The Jews didn't arrive in Israel part & parcel in 1948. They started settling there back in the late 1800's. Gawain would tell you nobody was there then (I find that a little hard to believe), but let's face it, there weren't 3 million people happily settled in, calling themselves Palestinians. What few people were there (remember, no infrastrucure) were subjects of the Ottoman sultan.

2) The Israelis didn't go out on a land-grab. They got invaded and took the Sinai, the Gaza strip, the West bank and the Golan heights as border zones to buffer their sovereign lands from further attacks. They gave back the Sinai in 1978, they're in the process of giving back Gaza and (hopefully) the West Bank. As Syria has frequently stationed large amounts of artillery in the Golan Heights and used it to shell cities within Israel, the odds of them surrendering that aren't quite as good (but that's a part of Syria, not Palestine).

But you're right. There's finge elements in Israel that won't be happy until Israel occupies the borders of the nation God promised Abraham, and there's a lot (more than just a fringe) Palestinians and others in the area that won't be happy as long as there's anyplace called Israel. The happy medium, as I see it, is 1948 borders. Certainly not a perfect solution, but better than most I've seen presented.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-18-2005, 23:30

Gawain would tell you nobody was there then (I find that a little hard to believe),

So do I. This wouldnt be an exaggeration would it? Please in the future dont put words in my mouth that I didnt say. Ive said and I maintai that it was sparcely popultated and run down and in decline like Palestine is today.

Really? I don't recall anyone in Greater Israel being granted a vote in the elections.

Really. I dont remember metioning 'Greater Israel'

That's either an admission that Greater Israel isn't actually Israel but occupied land or that Israel isn't a democracy.

Wouldnt Greater Israel Include Jordan? Or do you mean slightly greater Israel or are you using Israel as the name for all of Palestine as it used to be? You know damn well I was speaking of the legitimate elected government of Israel. You cant even acknoweldge them when they try to do something good. Your as bad as Hamas.

Steppe Merc

08-18-2005, 23:34

Well he doesn't kill people...

Gawain of Orkeny

08-18-2005, 23:37

Well he doesn't kill people...

Im talking of his attitude. Im certainly not calling him a terrorist.

Once mopre if the Palestinians didnt practice terror this would have ended long ago. In fact it never would have started. On what grounds coult the Israelis attack the Palestinaians on of not for that. This is the only reason people here in the US have little or no sympathy for them not that we think they are any less human than anyone else. In fact ive said over and over how bad I feel about how theve been used as pawns in a greater game. But when are they going to wake up? I fear Israel may rue the day they withdrew from Gaza but pray that Im wrong. Their actually giving them a port. Its like us giving AQ a port on the eastern seaboard.

Tribesman

08-18-2005, 23:37

Let me ask you this:
Let's just suppose for a moment that the next time there is a Quebec sovereignty vote, the nasty, dirty, treasonous separatists (*spits*) win the 50% +1 vote that they need and declare Quebec a separate nation. Suppose even further, that our federal government gives in not only to their demand for independence, but also to their (hypothetical) demand that all filthy anglophones get the hell out of Quebec.
Let me just ask you this Goof ..lets suppose that 99.9% of the voters who give the 50+1%don't even live in the land that you are talking about , and that the civilian population in the land that you are talking about are there illegally ~;)

Not to mention Jordan. That was created at the same time as well. I guess they have no right to exists as a nation either since that division was also seemingly based on nothing more than common religion.
Really? ~D ~D ~D ~D But that is another matter , would you like to start a new thread Goof ?

Edit , because i missed this little gem....
Please in the future dont put words in my mouth that I didnt say.
would you care to go back through some of the previous middle east topics Gawain , you have said it many times , and have repeated it many times even after it was clearly shown to be untrue .

sharrukin

08-18-2005, 23:38

Yeah, I know, I named the thread. ~;)
And yes, it is a step in the right direction, I think. And if the government continues to do the right thing, than that is good. And yes, the Isrealis gave, now it is time the Palestinians to act.
But the Isreali government still aren't the nicest people.

I can think of a few reasons for that!
http://www.geocities.com/neomi59/098.jpg

If that was my family I don't think exactly be the nicest guy either.

But killing Jews has helped them!

Killing those evil Jews has caused Israel to give back land it rightfully won after it was attacked.

Killing Jews has made them the pet cause of the arab world.

Killing Jews has garnered them enormous sympathy in Europe - who would have thought.. ~;)

Simply look at what they won today. Thats the direct result of their continued killing of Jews. Why in the world would you stop killing them if they continually cede land for a nonexistant peace?

We shouldnt see whats happened as anything but a palestinian victory. Im sure they smell the same blood I do.

Yeah, I know! "Peace in our time."
I wish I could say that you are wrong but this IS a victory for terrorism. I am not too thrilled with Bush supporting the 1949 armistice line, but he certainly isn't the worst of them.

It will not help the Palestinian people in the long run as even total victory and the destruction of Israel would still leave the Palestinians as dirt poor as they are now. Israel has no vast resources or oil, so it is the Israeli citizens who create wealth. With them gone the Palestinians will be no better off than they are now, and some will be much worse off.

This is not going to mean peace as the Palestinians don't want peace.

Papewaio

08-18-2005, 23:42

Any comments about the Israeli government naming Jewish Terrorists?

Idaho

08-18-2005, 23:49

This is not going to mean peace as the Palestinians don't want peace.

This is the endless refrain. And a justification for whatever the Israeli and American right want to do in the ME. It's nonsense - dangerous, murderous, carefully premeditated and constructed nonsense. Alongside such nonsense is the idea that the Palestinians aren't a people, that Palestine doesn't exist, that the country was empty. It's crafted propaganda. And even more bizzare as the accusations and claims are as appropriate to Israelis as to Palestinians.

Don - 1948 borders? I think if the Israelis offered that tomorrow, I'd advise the Palestinians to take it. As to whether that constitutes justice or whether it is a viable solution long term...

Tribesman

08-18-2005, 23:52

Any comments about the Israeli government naming Jewish Terrorists?
Any comments about the Settlers naming the Israeli government terrorists and Nazis ?

But no , seriously , it is new news , in the past few months the government has publicly named many Jewish individuals as terrorists , even 13 year old girls :book: Perhaps even the government has realised that ther are nutters on bothsides of the fence , but then again when the senoior government figures are recieving death threats and warnings that their family graves are going to be dug up and desecrated they do tend to take a bit of notice .

Proletariat

08-18-2005, 23:53

Don - 1948 borders? I think if the Israelis offered that tomorrow, I'd advise the Palestinians to take it. As to whether that constitutes justice or whether it is a viable solution long term...

So what's the viable long term solution?

When the Israeli's are singing 'Under The Sea (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B000001M3Z001006/0/104-4339944-1694348) ' along with a choir of fish and mermaids?

Gawain of Orkeny

08-18-2005, 23:57

This is the endless refrain.

It certainly is.

Hamas leader: Gaza withdrawal - ”beginning of the end for Israel”

Posted: 16-08-2005 , 10:49 GMT

The implementation of the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip marks “the beginning of the end for Israel,” said Hamas political bureau chief, Khaled Mashaal. Palestine-hamas-mashaal

Speaking to al-Hayat newspaper, Mashaal was quoted as saying on Tuesday that the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip as “the beginning of the end for the Zionist program in the region.”

The Hamas leader reiterated the movement’s commitment to the calm with Israel until the end of the current year, but added the “resistance is a strategic choice, because the withdrawal from Gaza is the first step in the way to complete liberation.”

The Damascus-based official stressed that “Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon wants the Gaza exit to be the first and last, and the payment for the continued control in the West Bank, settlement construction, wall construction, and the annulment of any possibility of establishing a Palestinian state within the framework of the Zionist project to end the Palestinian issue with the unlimited US support,” adding "We, however, see the withdrawal as first step for full liberation and achieving all of our legitimate rights. Today Gaza and tomorrow the West Bank and later every inch of the land."

He stressed that the withdrawal from Gaza is the "beginning of the end for the Zionist project in the region and an important and historic turning point in the Arab - Israeli conflict."

Again Hamas is probaby the strongest party among your peace loving Palestinians.

Can you believe the UN paid for these banners to be made to celebrate in Gazza?

'Gaza Today. The West Bank and Jerusalem Tomorrow' (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3129534,00.html)

Goofball

08-19-2005, 00:14

Let me ask you this:
Let's just suppose for a moment that the next time there is a Quebec sovereignty vote, the nasty, dirty, treasonous separatists (*spits*) win the 50% +1 vote that they need and declare Quebec a separate nation. Suppose even further, that our federal government gives in not only to their demand for independence, but also to their (hypothetical) demand that all filthy anglophones get the hell out of Quebec.
Let me just ask you this Goof ..lets suppose that 99.9% of the voters who give the 50+1%don't even live in the land that you are talking about , and that the civilian population in the land that you are talking about are there illegally ~;)

Don't try to change the question. The point of it was, what would you do if the government told you you had to leave your home, and that it your land was going to be given to people who are hostile to you. If you want to be dishonest with yourself and dodge the question, that's fine.

Not to mention Jordan. That was created at the same time as well. I guess they have no right to exists as a nation either since that division was also seemingly based on nothing more than common religion.Really? ~D ~D ~D ~D But that is another matter , would you like to start a new thread Goof ?

My mistake, Jordan became an independent nation in 1946, slightly before Israel. I should have remembered that, since Jordan had been notorious for sending the Arab Legion into Palestine to murder Jews from time to time.

Having said that, please don't misunderstand me. Although far from exemplary, Jordan's behaviour toward Israel has been far better than most of the other Arab states for the past twenty years or so.

Beirut

08-19-2005, 00:28

Don't try to change the question. The point of it was, what would you do if the government told you you had to leave your home, and that it your land was going to be given to people who are hostile to you.

Well, if that land was stolen from its rightful owners, brutally occupied contrary to all laws of nations and man, and my presence there was only good for me because it was at the painful expense of a great many others, (besides the fact that I'm being paid a few hundred grand to leave), I'd leave and shut up about it and stop whining like it was the Holocaust Pt.II and parading around wearing yellow stars and WWII concentration camp garb and crying to God to save me.

I mean, come on... The theatrics are embarrassing.

(On a positive note, did you see the birthday thread in the Frontroom? Did ya? Huh? Did ya? :balloon2: )

PanzerJaeger

08-19-2005, 00:30

Well, if that land was stolen from its rightful owners, brutally occupied contrary to all laws of nations and man, and my presence there was only good for me because it was at the painful expense of a great many others, (besides the fact that I'm being paid a few hundred grand to leave), I'd leave and shut up about it and stop whining like it was the Holocaust Pt.II and parading around wearing yellow stars and WWII concentration camp garb and crying to God to save me.

Didnt Canadians steal their land from the Indians in the same manner America did? If you look at things that way at least..

Gawain of Orkeny

08-19-2005, 00:33

Well, if that land was stolen from its rightful owners, brutally occupied contrary to all laws of nations and man, and my presence there was only good for me because it was at the painful expense of a great many others, (besides the fact that I'm being paid a few hundred grand to leave), I'd leave and shut up about it

Where did this happen? Or should I say where didnt this happen before? I see Panzer beat me to it. Then go back to France or where ever it is your ancestors are and give Canada back to the Indians because you guys stole that land andbrutally occupied it contrary to all laws of nations and man. Now shut up and leave ~;)

Goofball

08-19-2005, 00:33

Well, if that land was stolen from its rightful owners, brutally occupied contrary to all laws of nations and man, and my presence there was only good for me because it was at the painful expense of a great many others, (besides the fact that I'm being paid a few hundred grand to leave), I'd leave and shut up about it and stop whining like it was the Holocaust Pt.II and parading around wearing yellow stars and WWII concentration camp garb and crying to God to save me.

Really?

Then have fun packing your bags and moving back to Europe, because what you claim the Israelis did to the Arabs is exactly what we oh so pleasant and polite Canucks did to our aboriginal population.

At any rate, I knew you would dodge the question.

Tribesman

08-19-2005, 00:35

what dishonesty ? the majority of the settlers were paid to move onto land that was not their own , were heavily subsidised to stay on that land , and now it is becoming too expensive to maintain they are being paid to leave , when they will probably be paid again to move onto other land that is not theirs .

yeah sure I would be pissed at the government , but I would be equally pissed at myself for believing them in the first place . Though probably not as pissed as the people whose land it was anyway .

should have remembered that, since Jordan had been notorious for sending the Arab Legion into Palestine to murder Jews from time to time.
Would that be the British trained , British armed and British officered Legion , acting for the British government at a time when the British were fighting Jewish terrorists ?

Before you go any further about Jordan , try having a look at the recently released information about the deal between Jordan and the prospective Israeli government before partition went through . The Hashemites were ready to screw the proposed Palestinian State before the commissions had even finished work .

Proletariat

08-19-2005, 00:35

...if that land was stolen from its rightful owners...[/I]

'Rightful owners' is a silly way to look at this conflict from either side. Like Panzer pointed out, I'll buy you your plane ticket back to Europe whenever the Native Canadians decide to suicide bomb your countrymen.

Oh wait... The Native Canadians aren't doing that. They must be cowardly pacifists, unlike your Palestinian heroes.

:dizzy2:

Beirut

08-19-2005, 00:37

Panzer,

Yes we did.

tell me, can you imagine if we moved a few hundred of "us" onto a North American reserve and told them we're taking half the land and almost all the water just for a handful of people while a hundred times as many natives will then have to go without? Oh, and by the way, we're sealing your borders, cutting off all your trade and beggining a full military blockade and curfew.

Just imagine what would happen.

Proletariat

08-19-2005, 00:41

Just imagine what would happen.

Your ancestors did all that and much worse except not to a small reservation, but an entire continent. Go on, off you go.

Tribesman

08-19-2005, 00:42

Where did this happen? Or should I say where didnt this happen before?
But the difference is that because after WWII there were certain rules drawn up to ensure that such things didn't happen again , lots of countries signed up to those documents , Israel was one of those countries .

Gawain of Orkeny

08-19-2005, 00:44

But the difference is that because after WWII there were certain rules drawn up to ensure that such things didn't happen again , lots of countries signed up to those documents , Israel was one of those countries .

Again Israel didnt steal these lands but won them defending herself. Theres nothing that Israel signed denying her that right nor is there any such rule for any other nation.

Goofball

08-19-2005, 00:45

(On a positive note, did you see the birthday thread in the Frontroom? Did ya? Huh? Did ya? :balloon2: )

Just saw and replied to it. Thanks for the mention, old pal...

~:cheers:

Tribesman

08-19-2005, 00:50

Try again Gawain , you cannot transfer your civilian population to live on land that you have militarily occupied , it was a worldwide response to a little escapede known as creating "living room"

Gawain of Orkeny

08-19-2005, 00:53

Try again Gawain , you cannot transfer your civilian population to live on land land that you have militarily occupied

Oh so then the albinians have to get out of Kosovo? Please show me that law.

Steppe Merc

08-19-2005, 00:55

Your ancestors did all that and much worse except not to a small reservation, but an entire continent. Go on, off you go.
Did the Canadians do that too towards the Native Americans? I suppose they did, but I've never really heard of it...

Gawain of Orkeny

08-19-2005, 00:57

Did the Canadians do that too towards the Native Americans? I suppose they did, but I've never really heard of it...

They sure did. Do you think Canadians were that much different from Americans back then? Theres a few good movies Ive seen with the Mounties vs Indians . Fun stuff to watch.

Proletariat

08-19-2005, 01:03

They might've been calling themselves French or British at the time, but somebody had to conquer somebody in order to get the Blackfoot, Mohawks, Inuit, and so on out of the way.

Redleg

08-19-2005, 01:09

Does anyone wonder why the Israeli and Palenstine people can not get along?

Its no wonder to me at all - just look at the discussion here - both sides have committed terrible actions against the other side - and look how polarized we are here.

And most of us have never step foot in Israel or lived the lives of the Jewish people in Israel or the Palenstine people in Israel.

Good show folks - helps me understand why there will be no peace in Israel. Hell some of you are arguing about how it got started and are ignoring the news that the Israeli governmetn is at least trying something besides bulldozing Palenstine homes.

Yep idealog views get you wrapped around the axle of past wrongs - when you should want to focus on a brand new tomorrow.

Edit: don't worry tomorrow I will be back to my same old right wing conservative self.

Tribesman

08-19-2005, 01:17

Oh so then the albinians have to get out of Kosovo? What ???? "Albanians" have been the ethnic majority in Kosovo for centuries gawain , Lay off the drugs , they are screwing you mind up .
Perhaps you can ask your uncle about the Albanian invasion of Kosovo when he was stationed in the region (though you never did specify if he was "Epsom" or "Dorking"), where they helped the Yogoslavs crush the "Albanian" rising .

Gawain of Orkeny

08-19-2005, 01:18

Its no wonder to me at all - just look at the discussion here - both sides have committed terrible actions against the other side - and look how polarized we are here.

Were not as polarized as we seem. Few if any of us dont agree with your above statement. We just take different sides on who is more dispicable. ~;)

And most of us have never step foot in Israel or lived the lives of the Jewish people in Israel or the Palenstine people in Israel.

Yup. None of us have to worry about us or our families being blown up in public for the most part nor do we have to worry about some army coming rumaging through our neighborhoods. Take our feelings toward AQ and mulitply them times 100.

Good show folks - helps me understand why there will be no peace in Israel. Hell some of you are arguing about how it got started

I would say were debating it. ~D

and are ignoring the news that the Israeli governmetn is at least trying something besides bulldozing Palenstine homes.

Well Im innocent of that charge.

Yep idealog views get you wrapped around the axle of past wrongs - when you should want to focus on a brand new tomorrow.

From what Ive seen it seems this may well bad a bad future for Israel.

Steppe Merc

08-19-2005, 01:46

They might've been calling themselves French or British at the time, but somebody had to conquer somebody in order to get the Blackfoot, Mohawks, Inuit, and so on out of the way.
Well yes. However, they weren't put into reservations until later, no?

And Red, I agree, trying to look to the future is the best bet. That is why I posted this thread, because I think that it could possibley be a step in the right direction. And in the end, whether or not the Palestinians or the Isrealis are in the right, we can't expect either to just disapear. I just hope this turns out good, rather than bad.

PanzerJaeger

08-19-2005, 03:03

Try again Gawain , you cannot transfer your civilian population to live on land that you have militarily occupied , it was a worldwide response to a little escapede known as creating "living room"

If you are refering to World War 2, thats a terrible distortion of the truth. There was no worldwide response to "Living Space". It was a response to an aggressive Germany.

People have been colonizing land they conquered since the begining of history. Look at the British Empire.

Papewaio

08-19-2005, 03:15

If you are refering to World War 2, thats a terrible distortion of the truth. There was no worldwide response to "Living Space". It was a response to an aggressive Germany.

People have been colonizing land they conquered since the begining of history. Look at the British Empire.

There was a response to the living space. Also the way the British Empire took over land is totally different to how the Germans did.

Just look at how the majority of Commonwealth Nations still like Britain and plays its national sports.

Compare this with the ill feelings of the countries that were occupied by Germany.

The results are different because the methods were different.

Don Corleone

08-19-2005, 03:15

So do I. This wouldnt be an exaggeration would it? Please in the future dont put words in my mouth that I didnt say. Ive said and I maintai that it was sparcely popultated and run down and in decline like Palestine is today.

Sorry mate, wasn't trying to stir a pot. I honestly got your views wrong. I stand corrected.

Don - 1948 borders? I think if the Israelis offered that tomorrow, I'd advise the Palestinians to take it. As to whether that constitutes justice or whether it is a viable solution long term...
Still can't bring yourself to say Jews have a right to exist, eh? Pity...

Beirut, Tribesman, many others...the only 'rightful owners' you speak of is Turkey. End of story. The land was taken from the Ottomans and to the Ottmans it must be returned, following your logic. Won't that be fun.

Look, Prol hit the nail on the head. The Jews are negotiating about where the Palestinians are going. The Palestinians are negotiaiting with Europe about how long they have to wait before they can drive them into the sea. That will never happen, because America at least believes Jews have a right to exist, and I know we would give every last Israeli a place to live here in the US. Hell, 1/3 of our country is desert, just waiting to be improved by some hard working folks. That's not the point.

I want Beirut & Idaho to answer, honestly for once, DOES ISRAEL HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST?

sharrukin

08-19-2005, 03:21

I want Beirut & Idaho to answer, honestly for once, DOES ISRAEL HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST?

Isn't their silence answer enough!

Beirut

08-19-2005, 03:23

DOES ISRAEL HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST?

Yes.

(And no need to yell, we can hear you.)

That being said, I also think the partition of Palestine was a huge mistake. I think the illegal occupation of the territories has been a disaster, and the brutality exercised upon generations of Palestinians by the Israelis no less a crime than the white subjugation of the blacks under the South African apartheid system.

But, Israel exists and there is no point in denying that existence. There is a point however is wishing that Israel's existence was less detrimental to the Palestinians

Beirut

08-19-2005, 03:25

Isn't their silence answer enough!

Indeed, the six minutes it took me to answer is obviously proof of my lack of humanity. :dizzy2:

Do you also study existentialism with a stopwatch?

Don Corleone

08-19-2005, 03:27

Yes.

(And no need to yell, we can hear you.)

That being said, I also think the partition of Palestine was a huge mistake. I think the illegal occupation of the territories has been a disaster, and the brutality exercised upon generations of Palestinians by the Israelis no less a crime than the white subjugation of the blacks under the South African apartheid system.

But, Israel exists and there is no point in denying that existence. There is a point however is wishing that Israel's existence was less detrimental to the Palestinians

I only yelled because Idaho ducked the question 3 times in a row and you never bothered to address it. And it wasn't Palestine that got partitioned, mon amis (trying to help you prepare for your new life in Quebuecois), it was the Levant. If you're going to redraw Israel, give it all back to Turkey and let them figure it out.

Beirut

08-19-2005, 03:35

I only yelled because Idaho ducked the question 3 times in a row and you never bothered to address it.

I adressed it within six minutes of your mentioning it. Your last post, #100, some thirty-four posts previous to you asking me the question in post #134, did not ask the question. When you did ask the question, I answered it. And I'm still in trouble.

Boy, this is a hard room.

Don Corleone

08-19-2005, 03:37

I apologize my friend. I'm not trying to give you guff. You have given me the answer I sought and I salute you for it.

By the way, how do you think the Palestinians will take answering to the Turkish authorities?

Papewaio

08-19-2005, 03:40

Still can't bring yourself to say Jews have a right to exist, eh? Pity...

So you are suggesting that Idaho-san doesn't think he has a right to exist?

Gawain of Orkeny

08-19-2005, 03:42

So you are suggesting that Idaho-san doesn't think he has a right to exist?

I think hes in the same boat as Ronin.

Don Corleone

08-19-2005, 03:43

I'm unaware of Idaho's makeup. Perhaps I should rephrase that to "Still can't bring yourself to say Jews have a right to exist in Israel, eh? Pity...."

Thank you for the correction Papewaio. :bow:

Proletariat

08-19-2005, 03:58

I have asked Idaho repeatedly, since he flamed me way back on page one, and he hasn't responded.

He even mentioned the 1948 borders would basically be advisable for the Palestinians to take... for now.

So what's next?

Under the sea
Under the sea
Darling it's better
Down where it's wetter
Take it from me
Up on the shore they work all day
Out in the sun they slave away
While we devotin'
Full time to floatin'
Under the sea

:fishbowl:

PanzerJaeger

08-19-2005, 04:09

There was a response to the living space. Also the way the British Empire took over land is totally different to how the Germans did.

Just look at how the majority of Commonwealth Nations still like Britain and plays its national sports.

Compare this with the ill feelings of the countries that were occupied by Germany.

The results are different because the methods were different.

There were no ill feelings by the countries occupied by britain? It was all just a lovely party? Maybe there would be if the subject populations were allowed to have feelings.

The Indians liked the british so much Ghandi begged them to stay, no? And the completely non related indians across a couple of ponds were simply killed if they resisted.

Commonwealth nations such as Canada and Australia like britain because they are run by, and lived in by, a majority of formerly british people! The original peoples were politely stripped of power and made an underclass, if not simply destroyed.

Of course Britain didnt do it like some, but they still continued the precedent of colonizing conquered territory.

Proletariat

08-19-2005, 04:13

Nevermind.

Steppe Merc

08-19-2005, 04:23

PJ, I think the point is was that the British were hardly on the scale of Germany when it came to conquering terrotories.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-19-2005, 04:24

PJ, I think the point is was that the British were hardly on the scale of Germany when it came to conquering terrotories.

You think not?

PanzerJaeger

08-19-2005, 04:24

PJ, I think the point is was that the British were hardly on the scale of Germany when it came to conquering terrotories.

When did I say it was? As usual, the point has been completely lost..

Steppe Merc

08-19-2005, 04:29

Gawain, I meant Nazi Germany, not Germany before that.
I know that the British were hardly any nice guys towards their conquered populaces. Some were used when convienent (Iroquois, other native peoples), but they were obviously second class citizens.

Gawain of Orkeny

08-19-2005, 04:30

You mean that the British didnt treat everyone like their brothers? I mean the British were their saviors and brought civilization to these backward nations. So what if they had to kill and oppress and basicly take advantage of them for a century or two? Their better off because of it.

Steppe Merc

08-19-2005, 04:34

Gawain, you are quite good at getting me confused. :bow:
I'm too tired to argue with you, so I'll just say you've won (whatever it is that was being fought over, I have no idea) and leave it at that. ~:grouphug:

Papewaio

08-19-2005, 05:13

There were no ill feelings by the countries occupied by britain? It was all just a lovely party? Maybe there would be if the subject populations were allowed to have feelings.

The Indians liked the british so much Ghandi begged them to stay, no? And the completely non related indians across a couple of ponds were simply killed if they resisted.

Commonwealth nations such as Canada and Australia like britain because they are run by, and lived in by, a majority of formerly british people! The original peoples were politely stripped of power and made an underclass, if not simply destroyed.

Of course Britain didnt do it like some, but they still continued the precedent of colonizing conquered territory.

Commonwealth Nations:
Antigua and Barbuda (1981)
Australia (19311)
Bahamas (1973)
Bangladesh (1972)
Barbados (1966)
Belize (1981)
Botswana (1966)
Brunei (1984)
Cameroon (1995)
Canada (1931)
Cyprus (1961)
Dominica (1978)
Fiji (19702)
The Gambia (1965)
Ghana (1957)
Grenada (1974)
Guyana (1966)
India (1947)
Jamaica (1962)
Kenya (1963)
Kiribati (1979)
Lesotho (1966)
Malawi (1964)
Malaysia (1957)
Maldives (1982)
Malta (1964)
Mauritius (1968)
Mozambique (1995)
Namibia (1990)
Nauru (2000)
New Zealand (19313)
Nigeria (19604)
Pakistan (19475)
Papua New Guinea (1975)
Saint Kitts and Nevis (1983)
Saint Lucia (1979)
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (1979)
Samoa (1970)
Seychelles (1976)
Sierra Leone (1961)
Singapore (1965)
Solomon Islands (1978)
South Africa (19316)
Sri Lanka (1948)
Swaziland (1968)
Tanzania (1961)
Tonga (1970)
Trinidad and Tobago (1962)
Tuvalu (1978)
Uganda (1962)
United Kingdom (1931)
Vanuatu (1980)
Zambia (1964)

Ironside

08-19-2005, 10:24

A late respond about the comment that Hamas will celebrate it as a victory. Well duh!!

What did you expect them to say? That having a indepent Gaza strip will probably damage thier main powerbase (they had strongest support in the Gaza strip), as the average people will be content with it and don't wanna lose thier freedom due to an intense terror-campaign against Israel. Hamas lives on the "struggle" with Israel and lack of infrastructure (as they appearently give welfare to gain popularity). Remove it, and they will loose power.
But I would recommend a very shut down border for a few years, as Hamas would like to provoke back the current situation.

BTW according to the logic used here, the best way to create a very strong federal USA and a NWO (New World Order) is to create a militant Libertarian movement that is even more against this NWO in the USA. I mean you cannot appease or reward terrorists can you? ~;)
Give them some militaristic tendencies (as in wanting a libertarian, but still militaristic state) and you will have to make people pacifists too. ~;)

And finally whatever if this ends up good or bad, this should atleast be seen as a attemt to move out of a deadlock that has benefitted neither on either side.

Idaho

08-19-2005, 10:52

I want Beirut & Idaho to answer, honestly for once, DOES ISRAEL HAVE A RIGHT TO EXIST?

Well I would have answered sooner - but I have to sleep at nights, and then get up and go to work ~D

Let me try and answer this, and Proletariat's question at the same time.

A better solution than division would be a single state of Israel/Palestine with all citizens having equal rights. Maybe we should have a law that says all houses in all streets must be Arab/Jew/Arab/Jew. Then maybe if we give them all a amnesia drug... er.. and while we are dreaming why not give them all a $1 million each! And a swimming pool... heated - for the winter months.

Israeli's are there, Israel is there. We just ahve to find a way to make it work. Can I answer does it have a right to exist? If I say yes I am effectively saying that the Israeli state as it is, gets my seal of approval. I think there are a few simple changes Israel can make to it's behaviour and constitution and then I will happily endorse it.

Israel has the right to exist once it starts acting decently to all and stops being a racist state. How's that?

Goofball

08-19-2005, 17:00

Israel has the right to exist once it starts acting decently to all and stops being a racist state. How's that?

Not very good. Israel is a racist state, eh?

Let's see what great embracers of diversity the Palestinians are:

We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem.

Wow, he managed to get both racism and hegemony all into one statement. Nice.

The Zionists, who excel at false propaganda and misleading media, have had phenomenal success in changing the facts. To do this, they relied on the rule of 'lie and lie until everyone believes you.' They have managed to present themselves to the world as the only victims of the Nazis, excelling at misleading until they turned the greatest of lies into historical truth. I do not mean that they have succeeded in misleading the West and making it believe in the false Holocaust, but that they succeeded in persuading the Western world of the need to market these lies. The West is convinced of this because its interests intersect with those of the Zionist enterprise.

Nothing like a good Holocaust denial. Always makes for good political leadership.

The following quote appeared in the official Palastinian Authority newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, and was delivered during a Friday sermon on Palestinian TV:

The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'

But you're right. The Israelis are the real racists over there...

~:rolleyes:

Steppe Merc

08-19-2005, 17:43

Talking rocks? That's just scary.

And I don't see the big deal whether or not Hamas is celebrating. It was a step in the right direction. Whether or not bad people celebrate an action doesn't matter, what the end result does. And that is still up in the air.

PanzerJaeger

08-19-2005, 20:32

Commonwealth Nations: bla bla bla

So you are saying all those places welcomed british takeover and enjoyed british occupation? There were no ill-feelings about being forced into the empire? I know for a fact that the natives in America killed and forced off their land by the british didnt particularly appreciate it. ~;)

Colovion

08-19-2005, 22:39

ethnicity makes people drunk with the idea of nationalism

drunk people do stupid things

as a race, humanity has been drunk for a hell of a long time

It won't be changing any time soon.

Beirut

08-19-2005, 22:57

But you're right. The Israelis are the real racists over there...

~:rolleyes:

There is an old story about a father saying to his son; "Show me your friends, and I will tell you what kind of person you are."

Israel was one of apartheid South Africa's very, very few friends. They had a very weapon's oriented friendship. Everything from battle rifles (the Israeli Galil and the South African R4 are the same rifles) up to nuclear weapons. That kind of friendship says things about the people involved.

Goofball

08-19-2005, 23:06

There is an old story about a father saying to his son; "Show me your friends, and I will tell you what kind of person you are."

Israel was one of apartheid South Africa's very, very few friends. They had a very weapon's oriented friendship. Everything from battle rifles (the Israeli Galil and the South African R4 are the same rifles) up to nuclear weapons. That kind of friendship says things about the people involved.

Here's an even better saying (it's not old, because I'm coining it right now):

A reading from the Book of Goofball:

Reader: "When a nation's state newspaper and television station broadcast messages telling their citizens to kill people of another race or religion with the aim of wiping that race/religion of the face of the Earth, then that nation is morally bankrupt."

Officiant: "The Word of the Lord."

Congregation: "Thanks be to Goofball."

Crazed Rabbit

08-19-2005, 23:08

The Ohio Teacher's Union was also one of the friends of South Africa, investing heavily in that country. Are they racist? No, they were just putting their money where they could get the best return. Likewise, Israel did not support racism, they were just looking for help in a world where Europe had been completly duped by soviet and arab propaganda.

"Show me your friends, and I will tell you what kind of person you are."

It's ironic a supporter of the Palestinians, where the PLO was created by the KGB, Arafat was instructed on how to decieve the west by KGB chiefs, and the Soviet Union, the truly evil empire, gave military support to the Arabs, tries to call Israel racist since they had dealings with a racist state. Heck, I doubt very much Israel and S.A. were friends, just 2 countries looking out for themselves.

As to this withdrawel; it won't stop the Palestinian terrorists. They will claim victory and this will only swell their ranks. Abbas does not want to stop the terror-he caves in all the time to the terrorists and tips them off when he can.

Crazed Rabbit

Papewaio

08-20-2005, 00:16

So you are saying all those places welcomed british takeover and enjoyed british occupation? There were no ill-feelings about being forced into the empire? I know for a fact that the natives in America killed and forced off their land by the british didnt particularly appreciate it. ~;)

No I am saying that after the British left they still want to be friends... unlike the way people felt about the German takeovers... can you understand the difference in attitude wells from a difference in the way the nations took over land?

PanzerJaeger

08-20-2005, 01:42

No I am saying that after the British left they still want to be friends... unlike the way people felt about the German takeovers... can you understand the difference in attitude wells from a difference in the way the nations took over land?

What does that have to do with the precident of colonizing conquered land - which was the original post? ~:confused:

And I wouldnt say there was much love for the English in many parts of the world after the way they treated their subject populations.

Mongoose

08-20-2005, 05:17

If Palestine does not want to have it's land stolen, they shouldn't start wars with nations that are stronger then them. IMO Israel should keep the land.

how ever, if this DOES result in peace, i will support it. If the ings continue, then i think it's time for Palestine to either take action against hamas or be destroyed by Israel.

Just my 2 cents... :help:

Papewaio

08-20-2005, 07:16

What does that have to do with the precident of colonizing conquered land - which was the original post? ~:confused:

And I wouldnt say there was much love for the English in many parts of the world after the way they treated their subject populations.

If you are refering to World War 2, thats a terrible distortion of the truth. There was no worldwide response to "Living Space". It was a response to an aggressive Germany.

People have been colonizing land they conquered since the begining of history. Look at the British Empire.

First you tried to state there was no worldwide response to Nazi aggression in the form of living space... WWII was about as stern a response as possible.

Second you tried to give moral equivalence to Nazi Germany's mass murder of civilian populations to that of the British colonisation. You keep saying that the people from British colonies hate the British, which I keep pointing out that many nations are quite friendly with Britain and have sent troops to fight with the British. The British SAS has members from throughout the Commonwealth, The Commonwealth games is still very popular.

Compare this with how the nations that where invaded by Nazi Germany feel about that occupation.

You are trying to compare vinegar with wine... same base ingredients, different outcome because of different handling.

Soulforged

08-20-2005, 07:26

King Henry V

08-20-2005, 12:05

What does that have to do with the precident of colonizing conquered land - which was the original post? ~:confused:

And I wouldnt say there was much love for the English in many parts of the world after the way they treated their subject populations.
Not much love for the English per se, but plenty of love for the railways, roads, laws, unity, government that they brought and left behind. As for the Red Indians who you mentioned before, it is true that they were killed and driven from their lands. But it is also true that the British signed a treaty with them halting all expansion past the Appalachian Mountains. This was one of the reasons why the Colonies rose up in rebellion: the Americans wanted to expand to the West.

Beirut

08-20-2005, 12:07

If Palestine does not want to have it's land stolen, they shouldn't start wars with nations that are stronger then them. IMO Israel should keep the land.

The Palestinian's land was stolen before there was any war. The UN carved up Palestine like a roast and gave half to the Zionists, who's leaders, by the way, made very clear statements prior to the partition that they had every intention of taking the rest of the country by force one they raised their own army.

This poppycock of the Zionists wanting to share and live in peace is aftermarket propaganda. They had every intention of armed conflict and conquest before Israel was even created.

Idaho

08-20-2005, 12:09

Not very good. Israel is a racist state, eh?

Let's see what great embracers of diversity the Palestinians are:

Wow, he managed to get both racism and hegemony all into one statement. Nice.

Nothing like a good Holocaust denial. Always makes for good political leadership.

The following quote appeared in the official Palastinian Authority newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, and was delivered during a Friday sermon on Palestinian TV:

But you're right. The Israelis are the real racists over there...

~:rolleyes:

Irrelevant misdirection. I criticise Israel so you go and dig up random quotes from the other side. How does that in any way answer for Israel's actions? I'd be interested to hear who published those quotes. I have a feeling that you probably got them all from the same website.

King Henry V

08-20-2005, 12:49

No it must be said that the Palestinian people are one of the most tolerant in the world. Only last January they overwhelmingly voted in the Gaza municipal elections fron that great bastion of peace and understanding, Hamas. 75 out of the 118 seats went to Hamas. Hamas' aim, according to the Council on Foreign Relations website " Hamas combines Palestinian nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism. Its founding charter commits the group to the destruction of Israel, the replacement of the PA with an Islamist state on the West Bank and Gaza, and to raise “the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.” Its leaders have called suicide attacks the “F-16” of the Palestinian people. Hamas believes “peace talks will do no good,” Rantisi said in April 2004. 'We do not believe we can live with the enemy.'" What kind and gentle people.

Soulforged

08-20-2005, 22:11

The Palestinian's land was stolen before there was any war. The UN carved up Palestine like a roast and gave half to the Zionists, who's leaders, by the way, made very clear statements prior to the partition that they had every intention of taking the rest of the country by force one they raised their own army.

This poppycock of the Zionists wanting to share and live in peace is aftermarket propaganda. They had every intention of armed conflict and conquest before Israel was even created.

Agree. Tough following the zionists, the state of Israel has always exited "in their hearts" because they were a nation spread up, so this will mean that the palestinians are the same case, and in some way they stolen the land to an ideal Israeli state ( :dizzy2: ). This is what happens when you play with your friends defying reality. Now the authorities that achieved the state with the help of certain "friends", are making the people pay for their actions. The Jews should have stayed in their places around the world...

Goofball

08-22-2005, 16:29

Irrelevant misdirection.

From the Idaho dictionary:

Irrelevant misdirection = Information that does not fit with what Idaho wants to believe.

I criticise Israel so you go and dig up random quotes from the other side. How does that in any way answer for Israel's actions? I'd be interested to hear who published those quotes. I have a feeling that you probably got them all from the same website.

Just to humor you, IIRC the info I have posted came mostly from Wikipedia. I'm sorry if you think they are biased. But I don't know how bias can possibly come into play with direct quotes.

At any rate, since you don't seem to have made the connection, here is why the info I posted was relevant:

Both you and Beirut are more than happy to skewer the Israelis, calling them a racist state, and accusing them of wanting to take over the entire area by force of arms (ironic, that, since they are currently giving up territory), but both of you seem to ignore the following facts:

The stated goal of Hamas, which is the most popular political party among Palestinians (and not just the extremists, Hamas is popular with the mainstream, as is evident from the last elections) is the complete destruction of the state of Israel.

Secondly, as I may have mentioned already ~;) , the main newspaper and television station of the "legitimate" Palestinian Authority issues edicts calling on Muslims to murder Jews and eradicate them.

Yet both you and Beirut are insistant that the Palestinians want nothing more than a peaceful place to live and that the Israelis are the bad guys.

Talk about blind.