View Full Version : Terrorist 'Spiritual' Leader Gets Sentence Reduced
Papewaio
08-17-2005, 05:08
Bashir to get out of jail early (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16291102-2,00.html)
AN Indonesian court has cut a 30-month sentence handed to militant Muslim cleric Abu Bakar Bashir for his role in the Bali bombings by more than four months.
"He received a remission of four months and 15 days," said Dedi Sutardi, the head of Cipinang penitentiary.
He spoke at a press conference to announce remissions for 2000 prisoners to mark Indonesia's Independence Day today.
The sentence reduction, handed to well-behaved prisoners annually on Independence Day, is likely to anger Australia, which lost 88 citizens in the 2002 blasts and had already raised concerns about the potential sentence cut.
"Abu Bakar Bashir deserves a remission because he is behaving very well. All he does in prison is devote himself to religious service," Mr Sutardi said, adding that he expected Bashir to be free in April next year.
So death for drug smuggling and less then two years for consipiracy to kill over 200 people... :dizzy2:
Red Harvest
08-17-2005, 05:50
Bashir to get out of jail early (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16291102-2,00.html)
So death for drug smuggling and less then two years for consipiracy to kill over 200 people... :dizzy2:
I was in Singapore when the Bali bombing happened, 14 pages in the Straits times... Indonesia is one incredibly screwed up place. This b****** getting out of jail show's just how backwards they are as a nation.
Adrian II
08-17-2005, 06:37
So death for drug smuggling and less then two years for consipiracy to kill over 200 people... :dizzy2:I spoke to a radical young Dutch Muslim two years ago who had travelled to Indonesia in order to make 'contacts' and who had been arrested by the Indonesian police after they were warned by the Dutch authorities about his arrival. The guy told me he was treated like a prince and policemen and jail guards confessed to him that they secretly agreed with him and hoped that his kind of 'visitor' would be welcomed in the near future in Indonesia. A bad omen.
bmolsson
08-17-2005, 07:05
There where hundreds of drug convicts that received sentence reduction today (national day). Several of them foreigners. Regardless what you think about it, that is the law here. Good behavior gives you a reduction.
Also to note, even if I believe that Bashyir is one of the most evil persons alive, he was still convicted with much weaker evidence than for example the Corby girl. The law is the law and the international community need to cooperate better to get these guys. For example one key withness was not allowed in to court since he was in custody in another country. Indonesian law and law enforcement have it's flaws, but still we need to see things for what it is.......
Papewaio
08-17-2005, 07:33
... which is judges shaking hands with militia, and terrorists being taken out to starbucks by police chiefs... a very thin veneer of justice.
bmolsson
08-17-2005, 07:51
... which is judges shaking hands with militia, and terrorists being taken out to starbucks by police chiefs... a very thin veneer of justice.
This is not something exclusive for Indonesia. Idiots in uniform are evenly spread around the world....
Papewaio
08-17-2005, 07:56
This goes a bit beyond incompetence. This is agreement:
Bali bomber spotted having coffee in mall (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/02/1093939036484.html?oneclick=true)
Ali Imron, the so-called repentant bomber sentenced to life imprisonment for his part in the attacks which claimed more than 200 lives, was spotted having coffee at Starbucks with the director of Indonesian narcotics and drugs Brigadier-General Gorries Mere.
East Timor militia leader faces Indon court over abuses (http://www.etan.org/et2002b/june/23-30/27etmili.htm)
Guterres was deputy commander of the militia groups, set up by Jakarta ostensibly to maintain security in the province.
He was also the flamboyant chief of the Aitarak militia gang based in capital Dili who threatened four days before the vote that the town would be turned into a "sea of fire" if independence was declared.
With the overwhelming vote to secede, East Timor was ransacked by militia and more than 1,000 people were killed.
Prosecutors today claimed Guterres incited an attack on the home of independence leader Manuel Carrascalao, where 136 refugees were sheltering on April 17, 1999.
Carrascalao's adopted teenage son was among 12 who died in the attack.
must be killed," he was accused of telling his supporters in a scene at the governor's office that was widely televised, Yusuf said.
But absent from the charges was any reference to allegations by East Timorese human rights group Yayasan HAK that Guterres led an attack which resulted in a massacre in the town of Liquica in the same month.
Under the Dutch-based Indonesian legal system, Guterres, who is not in detention, was not required to enter a plea.
Afterwards, Guterres, wearing a scarf with Indonesia's national colours of red and white, approached the members of the bench, all of whom agreed to shake his hand.
bmolsson
08-17-2005, 11:26
This goes a bit beyond incompetence. This is agreement:
Bali bomber spotted having coffee in mall
He was a key withness against other bombers and a trust was built up. Surely this is bad taste, but this is something common in several western nations, where you do deals with criminals to get other criminals. By the way, the police chief that did this, got in to trouble over it so it didn't just pass.
East Timor militia leader faces Indon court over abuses
This is a tricky one. Crimes where committed in East Timor, which no longer is Indonesian territory, meaning Indonesian authorities no longer have jurisdiction there. Furthermore, all militias and rebels where granted some kind of amnesty, which would include this guy.
This guy is a small time gangster, that have got far to much media on his side in Indonesia.
You have to remember that the Fretilini guerilla was seen as a terrorist organisation and wasn't very nice to the civilians that didn't support them. Several of the guerilla members are today government officials in Timor Leste and are not being arrested or intimidated when entering Indonesia. It works two ways.
This has of course created a rather rough situation for anyone that wants to prosecute them.
Another small note. In Sweden we have 3 murderers participating as actors in a play. When the first play was given on a large Swedish theater, they run away robbed some banks and killed some cops. That even beat the cup of coffee above in my book......
Adrian II
08-17-2005, 12:50
This goes a bit beyond incompetence. This is agreement:
Bali bomber spotted having coffee in mall (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/02/1093939036484.html?oneclick=true)I believe you are jumping to conclusions here. Imron has been repentent from day one of his detention, he has apologised over and over to the victims of the bombing and promised to work with police as best he could. He was brought to Jakarta to assist Gorries' anti-terror police unit with their inquiries and that, apparently, is why Gorries took him outside for a cuppa. A change of scenery is know to help suspects or witnesses to recall events, names and places that would otherwise elude their memory. This looks like basic police work, my friend, and if there is any agreement between the two, it is probably about the need to prevent more bombings.
Red Harvest
08-17-2005, 16:35
Say what you want, but everything I've seen indicates the Indonesian military and police forces give tacit approval to the extremists. Indonesian efforts seem to be limited to doing the bare minimum to maintain order where they want it. They didn't want it in East Timor for example.
The Indonesian judicial system is a farce.
The Indonesian judicial system is a farce.
The same thing can be said about many countries judicial systems. If you got enough money for instance in the United States - you can get a non-conviction on a murder charge. And if you don't have enough money - you can get convicted of a murder charge even when you are innocent.
Be very careful of calling another country's system a farce when your nation has its own judicial problems.
Sjakihata
08-17-2005, 16:43
Every judical system is a farce.
Papewaio
08-18-2005, 02:52
Shakespeare hated farces...
Yeah, I prefer farragos or travesties.
It must be said that we get a very negatively-biased view of Indonesian justice through our sensationalist media, Master Pap.
They don't like to talk about the fact that the evidence against Bashir was weak, in legal terms anyway...
Papewaio
08-18-2005, 03:18
What that he ran a militant school that preached hatred of the West. That under Suharto he was not even allowed in Indonesia because of his preaching.
That the majority of the Bali bombers are students of his.
Shouldn't he have to have proved he did not inspire them to their acts?
bmolsson
08-18-2005, 03:21
Shouldn't he have to have proved he did not inspire them to their acts?
I don't think that any many should have to prove his innocense before he goes to jail. We have to prove him guilty. I am pretty sure that so is the case in Australia as well.......
Papewaio
08-18-2005, 03:27
I don't think that any many should have to prove his innocense before he goes to jail. We have to prove him guilty. I am pretty sure that so is the case in Australia as well.......
Yes in Australia you are innocent until proven guilty with sufficient evidence. You don't have the burden of proof to prove your innocence...
Also since he was found guilty his sentence was tiny and then it is being reduced again. In light of other sentences and trial procedures he is getting a slap on the hand sentence that looks more like a hi five then a sentence for conspiracy to commit terrorism.
The fact that Indonesia is reducing his sentence means that they do not consider conspiracy to murder anywhere near as bad as conspiracy to export drugs.
Their country, their rules. Just don't expect a lot of kudos for unjust sentencing.
What that he ran a militant school that preached hatred of the West. That under Suharto he was not even allowed in Indonesia because of his preaching.
That the majority of the Bali bombers are students of his.
Shouldn't he have to have proved he did not inspire them to their acts?
What we "know" and what can be effectively presented in court are not necessarily the same thing.
Papewaio
08-18-2005, 04:04
True, we are more like the Sgt in Hogan's Heroes then we would like to think...
Red Harvest
08-18-2005, 04:14
Personally, I think Western nations that have suffered attacks from these hatemongers should sanction hits on them. Try them in a military court in absentia unless they decide to submit themselves to prosecution in the West. If they are convicted by the military tribunal, set a hit squad on them. When the Indonesians protest, tell 'em to go pound sound...that's effectively what they are telling the West.
Personally, I think Western nations that have suffered attacks from these hatemongers should sanction hits on them. Try them in a military court in absentia unless they decide to submit themselves to prosecution in the West. If they are convicted by the military tribunal, set a hit squad on them. When the Indonesians protest, tell 'em to go pound sound...that's effectively what they are telling the West.
The United States by offical policy and Executive Order can not sanction or particpate in Political Assassinations. It is against the laws of the United States and for that matter - I am almost certain its against the laws of most western nations.
What a idiotic idea - its better to attempt regime changes thru invasions of other countries then to practice what is in essence a right wing death squad.
I hear jack boots in the background when I see people advocating ideas such as this.
if the United States learned anything in our particpation in Central and South America is that death squads does not win the heart and minds of the people who can change their countries.
Papewaio
08-18-2005, 06:35
Economic sanctions, official or vote with the tourist dollar is better then hit squads.
The problem with hit squads is many:
A) We don't have absolute knowledge. Thinking like that is what has created terrorism in the first place.
B) Someone could accidentaly or on purpose name a person as a terrorist... until the no fly lists are 100% accurate, I doubt anything that the governments do will be 100% accurate.
True, we are more like the Sgt in Hogan's Heroes then we would like to think...
Heh...
Spetulhu
08-18-2005, 07:46
The problem with hit squads is many:
A) We don't have absolute knowledge. Thinking like that is what has created terrorism in the first place.
B) Someone could accidentaly or on purpose name a person as a terrorist... until the no fly lists are 100% accurate, I doubt anything that the governments do will be 100% accurate.
Do you really think someone who advocates hit squads would care if the list of victims was 100% correct? The idea behind them is terror. Behave even worse than "the enemy" so people are afraid of helping them. It practically requires you to kill people on anonymous tip-offs and vague suspicion.
bmolsson
08-18-2005, 08:01
Yes in Australia you are innocent until proven guilty with sufficient evidence. You don't have the burden of proof to prove your innocence...
Also since he was found guilty his sentence was tiny and then it is being reduced again. In light of other sentences and trial procedures he is getting a slap on the hand sentence that looks more like a hi five then a sentence for conspiracy to commit terrorism.
The fact that Indonesia is reducing his sentence means that they do not consider conspiracy to murder anywhere near as bad as conspiracy to export drugs.
Their country, their rules. Just don't expect a lot of kudos for unjust sentencing.
I have seen the evidence in the case and he would NEVER been convicted in any western court, including Australia.
For example the evidence against the GAM leadership sent to the Swedish prosecutors was stronger than against Bashyir, and it was closed before even going to trial.
Papewaio
08-18-2005, 08:05
Do you really think someone who advocates hit squads would care if the list of victims was 100% correct? The idea behind them is terror. Behave even worse than "the enemy" so people are afraid of helping them. It practically requires you to kill people on anonymous tip-offs and vague suspicion.
Spetulhu-san aren't you just repeating what I said? :book: :bow:
bmolsson
08-18-2005, 08:09
Personally, I think Western nations that have suffered attacks from these hatemongers should sanction hits on them. Try them in a military court in absentia unless they decide to submit themselves to prosecution in the West. If they are convicted by the military tribunal, set a hit squad on them. When the Indonesians protest, tell 'em to go pound sound...that's effectively what they are telling the West.
In the case of Indonesia, it would be fairly easy to get Indonesia on it's knee's. It's a fragile democracy with huge macro problems.
When you got it on it's knee's, you would end up with 10-15 states, some Brunei's, some Bangladesh and some Taliban nations. The Taliban nations would keep west busy for a long while and any invasion would make a lot of mothers loosing their sons in jungles far, far away from home.
I would say that Indonesia is the best solution for west to keep one of the most populated areas in the world under control.
Indonesia want to be a part of the world community, they want to prosper, they do respect the west, but if you shit on them, you will have to exterminate them and there is a lot of them, not only in Indonesia..........
Spetulhu
08-18-2005, 09:53
Spetulhu-san aren't you just repeating what I said? :book: :bow:
Yes. And also pointing out that the guys recommending death squads don't care if all the victims deserve it. Sacrifices for the cause and all that. :bow:
Proletariat
08-20-2005, 18:09
What a frigging joke. Supposedly smuggling marajuana? 20 years. Inciting the death of 200 Westerners? Few years with good behavior.
Indonesia is a complete disgrace.
What a frigging joke. Supposedly smuggling marajuana? 20 years. Inciting the death of 200 Westerners? Few years with good behavior.
Indonesia is a complete disgrace.
I'll just direct you to Redleg's earlier post a little further up :bow:
bmolsson
08-21-2005, 04:21
What a frigging joke. Supposedly smuggling marajuana? 20 years. Inciting the death of 200 Westerners? Few years with good behavior.
Indonesia is a complete disgrace.
He is Indonesias Fred Phelps...... ~;)
Proletariat
08-21-2005, 04:27
...Yeah, they're the exact same.
Again, how many night clubs has Phelps inspired to be bombed? (Not that I'm sticking up for that retarded monkey of a human.)
bmolsson
08-21-2005, 04:31
...Yeah, they're the exact same.
Again, how many night clubs has Phelps inspired to be bombed? (Not that I'm sticking up for that retarded monkey of a human.)
Does it matter ? The fact remains that he wants me dead.....
Proletariat
08-21-2005, 04:36
Does it matter ? The fact remains that he wants me dead.....
Ask the families of anyone who was in that night club, and then quit being so sanctimonious. Half of Pakistan probably wants me dead since I don't wear a burqua, but that doesn't mean they've commited murder.
What is wrong with you?
bmolsson
08-21-2005, 04:52
Ask the families of anyone who was in that night club, and then quit being so sanctimonious.
I believe that the families of the night club would have the same opinion of Bashyir that the Swedish families that lost their loved ones to the tsunami Fred Phelps greets. I can't see why Swedish citizens are less worth that anyone else, can you ? ~:eek:
By the way, there was 6 Swedes killed in the Bali bomb, so I am sure that Fred Phelps is cheering that event as well. :furious3:
Half of Pakistan probably wants me dead since I don't wear a burqua, but that doesn't mean they've commited murder.
The people in Pakistan don't care if you wear a burqua or not, neither are they interested in having you killed for it. :book:
What is wrong with you?
I don't think I am the one that there is something wrong with here..... ~:grouphug:
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.