View Full Version : Holy Crap an Ally actually helped me.
Emerald Wolf
08-17-2005, 06:08
Here's the deal. I'm playing as the Italians and decide I need to build up a little colony along the Baltic. Being that I'm all about the trade, I figure I'll go and bribe my way into possesion of Lithuania, and Sweden and just take over Livonia, Prussia and Norway when I need some more trade goods. You know... invest in my nation's future. Anyway 1109 I take control of Lithuania. 1110 Pesants go apeshit and I run like a little bitch for the castle. Figure at the very least I can hold out for a couple of years and bribe myself into command of on of the FOUR stacks of rebels and maybe fight my way out. Haven't got a line of ship's yet but working on it, so no reinforcement possibilty.
Well just so happens that I am allied with the Byzantines who are in control of Kiev. They decide to come in with a whole stack and help me lay waste to whole bunches of peons. Then they just go home... don't try invading me after or nothing. Like the AI was actually doing ...what... an ally... should. Weird, huh?
Emerald Wolf
08-17-2005, 06:10
by the by, this is before I could bribe control of anything. I had a total of 135 of my own troops.
EatYerGreens
08-17-2005, 06:48
That's interesting. Not to say encouraging.
Just for clarification, I realise the AI factions only move after you've made your moves, so did you actually order a sally-out-from-castle type attack and the Byz just happened to join in or did you leave them sat in the castle and the Byz moved in of their own accord? If the latter, I'd be interested to know what the pre-battle screen said, as well as how you were allowed to participate in the battle when you hadn't actually ordered a sally-forth.
Technically, with you retreated to the castle, the province was owned by the rebels on that turn. This is the only way the Byz were able to strike without turning your alliance into a war against them.
EatYerGreens
08-17-2005, 07:16
Just for the record, my last experience of allied action was a bit half-and-half. That's to say it was difficult to tell if they were trying to help (not as if I needed it) or had some kind of ulterior motive.
Me as Byz, in Early and only a few turns into the game, so I make a grab for Serbia, which only has 100 Spears and 100 pez in it. The Italians are allied to me and, co-incidence or not, launch their own attack, using their ship link to bypass the Hungarians in Croatia. I don't get a chance to see what's in their army but the strength bar barely registered and could have been just one or two units.
I get to the battlefield, look around but no sign of the Italians, so I get stuck in. I march down a slope and use my Slav Warriors' speed to chase after the pez hiding in the trees which are up the slope on the other side of the gully. Meanwhile a messy meleé against their spears starts, with a house ruining the shape of my formations but progressing in my favour. I get my view close to the action, so I fail to see the Italian UMs until they're seconds away from charging full-tilt into the rear of one of my two units. ~:eek:
Possibly mistaking this for a back-stabbing attack on my men, instead of helping them out and fearful of the effects of a charge into the rear of my unit, I click on my merc mounted crossbows to highlight them and click on the Italian unit, to fire on them (knowing full well that this might place us at war).
At that split second of targeting, the PC rebooted itself (possibly an overheating problem, since some battles were okay up to the point where very intense action kicks off and then foom!) and, following a restart and reload, I repeated the End Year. The Italians pulled the same trick but this time they kept their distance, did not engage the rebels, I had no cause to fire at them and I won the province by having more men when it was over. Their force presumably 'evaporated' with no path of retreat. The alliance was maintained, which is just as well as they have been my main destination for trade, ever since.
That thing of who has the most numbers, following a joint conquest would imply that the Byz ought to have had rights to that province but maybe there's a special rule whereby you held it first and a siege-lift operation does not magically confer ownership on the ally, so they are obliged to withdraw after the victory and hand it back to you, thus avoiding a state of war.
Well thought out, CA.
That thing of who has the most numbers, following a joint conquest would imply that the Byz ought to have had rights to that province but maybe there's a special rule whereby you held it first and a siege-lift operation does not magically confer ownership on the ally, so they are obliged to withdraw after the victory and hand it back to you, thus avoiding a state of war.
Well thought out, CA.
I believe that to be the case, although it's been a while since an ally has "helped" me, so I can't remember for sure anymore. I know for certain that that's how it works for me when *I* help out a besieged ally. Granted, the AI in MTW isn't always constrained by the same parameters as the player-controlled faction, but in this case I'm pretty sure the rule applies to all parties, human *and* AI.
The key is that you have to have some kind of castle built in that province in order to retain control of it after your ally has lifted the siege. Otherwise if there's no castle, your friends get the territory instead of you.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
08-17-2005, 16:09
I remember when the Danes and me invaded Saxony at the same time in an old campaign. I managed to shoot their King in the back without declaring war. ~D
The evil maniac strikes again! :evilgrin: .
Hah, whenever my "allies" choose to help me out its by sending a massive force of peasants and spearmen to help me whenever I invade a province. This force then sits back and lets me do all the work, then gets the province because they are bigger! Tossers. Whoever gets the province should be based on who got the most kills, then it would be like a race to see who can trash the enemy first instead of seeing who can get away with the least action
Geezer57
08-17-2005, 18:09
Here's the deal. I'm playing as the Italians and decide I need to build up a little colony along the Baltic. Being that I'm all about the trade, I figure I'll go and bribe my way into possesion of Lithuania, and Sweden and just take over Livonia, Prussia and Norway when I need some more trade goods. You know... invest in my nation's future. Anyway 1109 I take control of Lithuania. 1110 Pesants go apeshit and I run like a little bitch for the castle. Figure at the very least I can hold out for a couple of years and bribe myself into command of on of the FOUR stacks of rebels and maybe fight my way out. Haven't got a line of ship's yet but working on it, so no reinforcement possibilty.
Well just so happens that I am allied with the Byzantines who are in control of Kiev. They decide to come in with a whole stack and help me lay waste to whole bunches of peons. Then they just go home... don't try invading me after or nothing. Like the AI was actually doing ...what... an ally... should. Weird, huh?
OK, you took the province (which made it yours), had a peasant rebellion the following year, and retreated to the stronghold. Players (both human and AI) can opt to relieve the siege of an ally by sending in an army. In this case (unlike when allies attack together a 3rd-party province), the army numbers make no difference, the faction in the stronghold keeps possesion should the allies win the battle.
If you choose to do this type of siege relief, make sure you can afford it. Should there not be a line of communications from the siege province back to your empire's borders (line of ships with port at both ends, adjacent province, etc.) when the battle ends, you'll end up having to ransom your own troops back from your ally.
This can be a good thing sometimes - for example, you're role-playing a "Good Guy" empire, only attacking those that attack you, and trying to keep small factions alive against big bully neighbors. If you relieve a small ally's siege by seaborn army, and move your ships out of the adjacent sea regions before ending the year, you'll end up ransoming your troops to get them back - which gives your ally's treasury a big boost! If you can afford it, send lots of high-quality soldiers - that'll raise the donation to the maximum.
In the co-invasion scenario (when allies attack together a 3rd-party faction), keep in mind that (post VI) the larger army at the end of the battle takes possesion of the province. If your ally sends in lots of junk, then let them do most of the fighting (and dying!) until the time is right for your purposes. There have been times when my ally didn't seem willing to attack, so I used skirmishers to draw out the enemy in my ally's direction, forcing them into an engagement. Then I set all my missle troops to plinking at the enemy's front ranks, so that my ally would suffer the maximum "friendly fire" - which helped the army numbers, right? Just don't directly target an allied unit - that can lead to a state of war, which is bad for trade.
Allies always "help" :inquisitive: you invade other provinces, but only if you do the fighting and they bring 20 units of peasants along so they can claim the province as there's was the largest army.
This one time, the French tried this 3 times and each time I increased the size of the attacking army and the French counterred by bulking up their army with more peasants forcing me to retreat because I knew the battle was pointless :furious3:, which in turn forced the French to retreat as they knew they couldn't win. In my final and succesful attempt to conquer the province, I "cancelled" :evil: the alliance.
I dunno about all of you but I NEVER ENGAGE when an ally joins me in battle.
They always engage the enemy and I mop up the routers. Thats how it works. If it was a human ally, I would help out but because CPUs will stab you in the back, I choose not to help.
I will even go as far as when an enemy and rebels hold the province, I will bait one to attack the other before I will engage them in combat.
Emerald Wolf
08-17-2005, 21:28
Further proof that the ghost in the shell is an asshole.
And i never ordered a sally at all. I just sat there and they came running to the rescue.
My point is is that I never thought that alliances meant dick.
Dutch_guy
08-17-2005, 21:31
My point is is that I never thought that alliances meant dick.
yeah I thought exactly the same - since I started playnig MTW after RTW ( where Alliances mean nothing....
So I was surprised to see one of my homelands that was taken and under siege by rebels , beiing relieved by my HRE allies ~:)
:balloon2:
yeah I thought exactly the same - since I started playnig MTW after RTW ( where Alliances mean nothing....
So I was surprised to see one of my homelands that was taken and under siege by rebels , beiing relieved by my HRE allies ~:)
:balloon2:
Which faction were you? Just curious.
For anyone who's interested in the mathematics of Influence, you do NOT get any for lifting an ally's sieged province. I tested this three bloody times last night, at great cost to the Turkish War Widows Association...
For anyone who's interested in the mathematics of Influence, you do NOT get any for lifting an ally's sieged province. I tested this three bloody times last night, at great cost to the Turkish War Widows Association...
You do, I got my Aragonese leader up to influence 10 by about 1100 by helping lift a French seige on the English every turn
Well, something's not right...
Is it a points-based thing, like EYG is describing in the Spy thread, or is it 1 for 1?
For anyone who's interested in the mathematics of Influence, you do NOT get any for lifting an ally's sieged province. I tested this three bloody times last night, at great cost to the Turkish War Widows Association...
:laugh4: . Give us some details :book: .
Dutch_guy
08-18-2005, 11:11
Which faction were you? Just curious.
I was playing as the Italians.
:balloon2:
For anyone who's interested in the mathematics of Influence, you do NOT get any for lifting an ally's sieged province. I tested this three bloody times last night, at great cost to the Turkish War Widows Association...
I have gained influence by lifting a seige (as Byz helping France-vs-English). It may have to do with your empire size, amount of influence, or some other mitigating factor.
The most fun I have had with allies was a battle between the Orthodox Allies and the Germano-Turk Allies. The Byz invaded Lithuania, seiged the rebels in the tower and got hit by rebels, and were helped by Novgorod, but invaded by Turkey and Germany all at the same time. 5 armies, 3 sides, a total mess (my computer was stuttering so bad I couldn't give orders)
"The ghost in the shell is an asshole."
~:confused:
Marquis de Said
08-18-2005, 22:16
OK, you took the province (which made it yours), had a peasant rebellion the following year, and retreated to the stronghold. Players (both human and AI) can opt to relieve the siege of an ally by sending in an army. In this case (unlike when allies attack together a 3rd-party province), the army numbers make no difference, the faction in the stronghold keeps possesion should the allies win the battle.
If you choose to do this type of siege relief, make sure you can afford it. Should there not be a line of communications from the siege province back to your empire's borders (line of ships with port at both ends, adjacent province, etc.) when the battle ends, you'll end up having to ransom your own troops back from your ally.
This can be a good thing sometimes - for example, you're role-playing a "Good Guy" empire, only attacking those that attack you, and trying to keep small factions alive against big bully neighbors. If you relieve a small ally's siege by seaborn army, and move your ships out of the adjacent sea regions before ending the year, you'll end up ransoming your troops to get them back - which gives your ally's treasury a big boost! If you can afford it, send lots of high-quality soldiers - that'll raise the donation to the maximum.
In the co-invasion scenario (when allies attack together a 3rd-party faction), keep in mind that (post VI) the larger army at the end of the battle takes possesion of the province. If your ally sends in lots of junk, then let them do most of the fighting (and dying!) until the time is right for your purposes. There have been times when my ally didn't seem willing to attack, so I used skirmishers to draw out the enemy in my ally's direction, forcing them into an engagement. Then I set all my missle troops to plinking at the enemy's front ranks, so that my ally would suffer the maximum "friendly fire" - which helped the army numbers, right? Just don't directly target an allied unit - that can lead to a state of war, which is bad for trade.
Excellent post, Geezer 57. You have my strategies down to a T.
ToranagaSama
08-18-2005, 23:35
OK, you took the province (which made it yours), had a peasant rebellion the following year, and retreated to the stronghold. Players (both human and AI) can opt to relieve the siege of an ally by sending in an army. In this case (unlike when allies attack together a 3rd-party province), the army numbers make no difference, the faction in the stronghold keeps possesion should the allies win the battle.
Good info. Where'd you get that? I don't think this was ever documented, e.g, in the manual.
Hah, whenever my "allies" choose to help me out its by sending a massive force of peasants and spearmen to help me whenever I invade a province. This force then sits back and lets me do all the work, then gets the province because they are bigger! Tossers. Whoever gets the province should be based on who got the most kills, then it would be like a race to see who can trash the enemy first instead of seeing who can get away with the least action
Anybody in the mood for cheese....
You do realize that you can do the same thing, in *most* occaisons. The Ally AI will most often *advice* and/or the Enemy AI will advice. You could chose to just hang back; or, pull back; or move your army behind the Ally. Whatever suits your fancy.
Then sit back and watch the two AIs go at it, then swoop down and clean up. BING! you win, your province.
Gouda anyone?
EatYerGreens
08-19-2005, 03:28
Anybody in the mood for cheese....
Mmmm....wedge formation...Mmmm [/Homer Simpson]
You do realize that you can do the same thing, in *most* occaisons.
Errr, nope. Player always makes his moves on the strategic map first. How are you supposed to predict where the AI is going to be attacking and have your junk-force in the right place?
Or are we talking about notification from your own spies about precisely when/where an attack is going to happen?
The Ally AI will most often *advice* and/or the Enemy AI will advice.
Advice? Did you mean advance? (Aren't spelling checkers a complete nuisance?)
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