The Racism Discussion thread

[The Stranger]

i dont know if this is smart but let's try. cuz this issue brought alot of threads off topic, here you can stay on. but i dont know if it will work. now we only need people to come up with a statement. ~;)

[TheSilverKnight]

Why is racism so profound in the Southern USA as it has been for centuries?
There's a statement for you.
Why is there a KKK and why isn't the government doing anything about it?

[drone]

Why is racism so profound in the Southern USA as it has been for centuries?
There's a statement for you.
Why is there a KKK and why isn't the government doing anything about it?
The KKK is not isolated to the southern states. We have various neo-nazi and white supremacist groups in just about all 50 states. Some racists apparently don't like the heat. ~;)

And please, if this is going to be a serious discussion, let's not confine this to the US. There are plenty of racists in Europe as well, at least amongst the football fan(atic)s and the various nationalistic parties.

[Al Khalifah]

The KKK is not isolated to the southern states. We have various neo-nazi and white supremacist groups in just about all 50 states. Some racists apparently don't like the heat.

And please, if this is going to be a serious discussion, let's not confine this to the US. There are plenty of racists in Europe as well, at least amongst the football fan(atic)s and the various nationalistic parties.
Only white people are racists and racism only exists in the Western world...?

[drone]

Only white people are racists and racism only exists in the Western world...?I was going to put in something along the lines of "Racism is not isolated to any one country or race", which is sadly the case. Instead, I got a little irked about TheSilverKnight's post, in a "let he who is without sin..." kind of way. :bow:

[PanzerJaeger]

Racism is more prevelent in the northern US and even some places in the West than in the South. Perceptions dont equal reality.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Why is racism so profound in the Southern USA as it has been for centuries?

Its not so profound as most europeans would seem to believe nor has it been the same for centuries noer is it anywhere near as bad as in the Middle East or most of europe for that matter.


Why is there a KKK and why isn't the government doing anything about it?

THe KKK is basicly a memory here and this illustrates what I was saying about europeans. Listening to you guys you would think their still marching around in white sheets burning crosses on peoples lawns and stringing up black people.Their not , not only because the government has done a great deal about it but so have the american people.

[Pindar]

Racism is a flawed position because race as a category is problematic.

[Steppe Merc]

What I don't understand is why the hell everyone sees racism as black versus white. There is no such thing as counter racism, or whatever it's called.
Racism was a problem from the beggining of recorded history, and yet, people seem to only look at white versus black, especially in America.


Racism is a flawed position because race as a category is problematic.
I agree wholeheartedly. What is a race? Is it based off of language, or culture, or just looks? Is it based off of geographical location, or what?
It is especially muddy in places that were conquered over and over again by different peoples, and the people merged over time, such as Central Asia, Russia, the Balkans, etc.

[TheSilverKnight]

I was going to put in something along the lines of "Racism is not isolated to any one country or race", which is sadly the case. Instead, I got a little irked about TheSilverKnight's post, in a "let he who is without sin..." kind of way. :bow:

I'm sorry if I've offended you, it's just most I hear about racism is concentrated to the American South with whites against blacks. I'm sorry again if I've offended you, but that was a serious two questions there. :bow:

[Samurai Waki]

The US like most European related countries has had it's nasty issues with racism, Neo-Nazis and white supremacist Cult Movements are about as prevalent in the US as it is in the UK. There are always dissenters.

In the Middle East Racism is quite prevalent, being a non-Arab/Non Islamic in many places could get you killed easily.

China currently has a problem with racist tendencies, and this isn't new news by any means, and isn't limited to black, whites, middle easterners, etc. but is similar in many ways to Nazi Germany as quasi racist/Nationalistic. Meaning many Chinese view themselves as being the superiors to everyone including other Asians, like Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Thai, etc. Most Cultural hubs hide this opinion, but it is rather prevalent, and has a bone of contention in Chinese Government that they resort to adopting out Chinese Children to Westerners.

[Red Harvest]

Its not so profound as most europeans would seem to believe nor has it been the same for centuries noer is it anywhere near as bad as in the Middle East or most of europe for that matter.

It was quite severe until about 40 years ago. The Civil Rights Movement of that time used Federal powers and legislation to make open racism gradually less tolerable/possible in the South at the state and local levels. Blacks finally were able to vote in reasonable numbers as a result. But make no mistake, there is still quiet racism present here, moreso than any other part of the country I have lived in or visited. Of course, I could say the same about sexism in the South too. I didn't see it much farther North, but once I moved here I was amazed at how sexist some of the managers were. They weren't trying to be, they were just clueless. I still remember a VP telling a prostitute joke to start off a technical conference...and it was being put on *video.* ~:eek:

To give another example: my wife was on a federal jury for a discrimination suit on the grounds of wrongful termination. She and the rest of the jurors could clearly see blatant open racial discrimination from the testimony of many sources (including the Defense), but had to find against the claimant, because the termination itself was justified (there was an accident.) The jurors were actually upset that they had to let the company off the hook.

Another example of the quiet racism was a coworker who had stopped eating in the cafeteria since it had been desegregated. He never set foot in there again. I've heard him make a few statements that were very racist (and not in jest), but he was always quite careful not to do anything in an actual official work mode. That's fair enough for me, but he wasn't the sort of person I would put in a supervisory role either. Plus we had some trouble with one Supervisor who had some palpable racial issues. Ironically, he was eventually busted back down a level for a valid sexual harrassment claim.



THe KKK is basicly a memory here and this illustrates what I was saying about europeans. Listening to you guys you would think their still marching around in white sheets burning crosses on peoples lawns and stringing up black people.Their not , not only because the government has done a great deal about it but so have the american people.

They are still alive as my experience has shown, although much less visible. They can no longer do much publicly, whereas they could at one time (and count on supporters.) They have been chased underground as a hate group and they don't have much bite at the moment. What has gotten them is the ability of their more recent victims to sue the organizations successfully. Their funding was attacked and they were bankrupted. That has forced them to change their mode of operation. There is definitely less tolerance for them as well, I don't want to downplay that aspect at all--but the funding offensive was a very heavy blow.

The Klan has petered out several times over the years, only to rise again. Let's hope this previous time will go down as the final chapter.

[Red Harvest]

First question: Racism is profound in the south because that was where Slavery was concentrated in the US.

Second: The KKK is an organization started by disgruntled southerners, and the government has done ALOT about it.

True on both counts. ~:cheers:

[Strike For The South]

Racism isn't as prevalent as it was 40 or hell 20 years ago but its still here an example last fall during football season smithson valley (nearly all white) and Judson (nearly all black) were playing and a 10 yr old sv kid was beat up by some kids from judson reasons unknown. So this kids older brother gets his friends goes to the judson buses writes all sorts of dumb stuff like Ni**er go back or a burned and went into the bus took his hunting knife tore out all the cushion in the seating and left a noose in the middle of the bus.Its getting much better but there are still strong feelings on both sides


This was an isolated idiotic incdent and everyone was angry so it is getting better

[Roark]

Perceptions dont equal reality.

:laugh4:

Except yours, right PJ?

[Papewaio]

Prejudice exists in all societies.

Most people react differently to people who are different.

Be they a different sex, sexuality, skin tone, eye colour, height, weight, speech pattern, accent, education, political outlook etc.

The irony is that most people appreciate differences most of the time if there is positive role models and access to people who are different.

After all most people find the opposite sex interesting not disgusting.

----

A simplistic model for prejudice is:

Unknown creates discomfort to the point of fear.
Fear then creates anger.
Anger boils over to the point someone acts on it.

With exposure to more and more differences most people figure out that different people are interesting. Most people find that they like to eat at an international food court and have a mix of food. Most guys perve on the babe thread and admire the girls of all nations and the girls who are a mix of many nations to.

----

One way to combat prejudice:

Library launches 'borrow a person' (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16290045-13762,00.html)

[IliaDN]

Here is my question: are muslim terrorists - racists, or not?
IMO USA is not on the worst position, concerning this problem, if compared with easterners.

[Papewaio]

Terrorists tend to be monoculturalists so in general I would say they are racists.

[Soulforged]

Racism is a flawed position because race as a category is problematic.

Agreed. And that's exactly the problem, ignorance. As any idea it's expressed with a porpose, having tremendous effect on reality, this one. I think that many times races surged to be an expiatory of the rest of society, and that's all. Anyway dening that are differences beetween our people, fisical specially, is a lie, what everybody must understand that as humans we are all the same. For that i think that racism is only bad when it has effects on reality, making a separation (even joking about reciprocal defects) is not bad stereotyping isn't bad (just ignorant) while it don't turns in hostile thoughts.
I believe that racism on the Middle East comes from the interpretetion on religion. Some groups believe (as every religion is based on blind believes) and someothers not. The problem is that in Afganistan this is coming to unbearable proportions because the state is saying what the people can do or not do concerning even religion, and many people are mainteined in ignorance by this, i think that hostile thoughts against anything unknown or banned by this oppresive state, eventually apears.
Anyway i would like to say that racism is not an isolated event, happens in all the world. To me is a natural psicologycal thing that rises from ignorance when in any given place there's any type of propaganda on that favor, and nationalism, i personally don't like nationalism.

[bmolsson]

Racism is a flawed position because race as a category is problematic.

I would have to disagree. There is nothing strange with race at all. There are several different races around and human as a spieces can easily be divided in to races.
The problem is when race is used for discrimination or favorisation.

I can't see anything wrong with calling a black man black or a white man white. I can't see any reason why anyone should be ashame or extra proud over his color and demand special treatment.

I am personally against ALL form of discrimination. If it is because of race, sexual orientation or even nationality, it makes me upset. But I am also a realist and believe it's just silly to talk about "African-Americans" or similar expressions. Somebody born in US is an American regardless color. Quite simple actually.

Furthermore, racism in US is not larger or more serious than anywhere else in the world. It is just that it gets a lot more media attention and since US call it self the pioneer on freedom and equality, we expect more from US.
In Asia, racism is even more ugly, for example in Indonesia, EVERYONE knows who is from where and for example Javanese have a much higher standing than most other ethnic groups or races. (There are not so many races in Indonesia so it's a little bit more complicated).
For me as a white guy here, I have to live with being called "bule" (meaning white face) and sometimes get to pay "pajak kulit" (meaning skin tax) for being that, I still survive, but sure I would prefer to be treated as an equal at all times.

So bottom line, I am white and I am not doing any big fuzz over it. :bow:

[Papewaio]

So you don't like the extra attention from the girls for being white?

[bmolsson]

So you don't like the extra attention from the girls for being white?

That is not why I get the extra attention. It's a Amex Gold and the Rolex that gives that extra attention...... ~;)

[Papewaio]

I found that just being white in Indonesia the girls assume that you are richer then others.

[bmolsson]

I found that just being white in Indonesia the girls assume that you are richer then others.

Only in the red light districts...... ~D

[Papewaio]

No, everywhere.

[bmolsson]

No, everywhere.


So you have been in the red light district !!! ~:eek: :help: ~;)

[Papewaio]

No need. As just sitting in Hard Rock Cafe or Planet Hollywood I had women approaching me... it was a huge ego trip. But my response was that I was not single and hence not available...

[bmolsson]

No need. As just sitting in Hard Rock Cafe or Planet Hollywood I had women approaching me... it was a huge ego trip. But my response was that I was not single and hence not available...

Well, the places you are mentioning are known for "casual" relationships..... ~:cheers:

[Papewaio]

Well I was there for pizza and beer before heading off to the jungle.

Same thing happened in the department stores, at the airport, at breakfast, and at the minesites... mind you I also got chatted up by a guy in Sumatra which was the first and last time a guy has ever tried that... it ain't because of my looks... it was purely a perception that as a white guy I must be relatively well off.

[Al Khalifah]

Possibly one of the most racist countries in the world that seems to be escaping all accusation here as usual is India. Try getting a job as a non-Indian in India - and I mean a proper job, not some GAP year let's build a church type escapade.

[The Stranger]

What I don't understand is why the hell everyone sees racism as black versus white. There is no such thing as counter racism, or whatever it's called.
Racism was a problem from the beggining of recorded history, and yet, people seem to only look at white versus black, especially in America.


I agree wholeheartedly. What is a race? Is it based off of language, or culture, or just looks? Is it based off of geographical location, or what?
It is especially muddy in places that were conquered over and over again by different peoples, and the people merged over time, such as Central Asia, Russia, the Balkans, etc.

yeah i wonder about that too. i once said that racism is still a big issue, the best answer i got was no it isnt, we got a black counceler.

most racists hate everyone that isnt like them or that never could be like them (on the outside)
that includes (for most neo-nazi's) muslims, blacks, gothics, indians, jews, etc
for muslim racists, particular everyone that isnt muslim and especially jews
etc etc.

and i think that the "group" that has been hurt by racism the most are the JEWS and not blacks muslims or anyone else.

[The Stranger]

I found that just being white in Indonesia the girls assume that you are richer then others.

believe me that is not only for being white and not only in indonesia i went to Guinee (not near australia but beneath senegal) they tried to rip you off becuase you looked western, they made a mistake cuz my mom is just like m.
it's not really the same but i think that if you would go there the girls would do the same thing.

[Bartix]

There are several different races around and human as a spieces can easily be divided in to races.
??? ~:confused: ???
I never hear any serious scientist claim such for many many years.
What races? How divide? :balloon2:

Here is anti-racist smiley: ~:grouphug:

[drone]

I'm sorry if I've offended you, it's just most I hear about racism is concentrated to the American South with whites against blacks. I'm sorry again if I've offended you, but that was a serious two questions there. :bow:
I wouldn't say I was offended, I was just trying to point out that the US South does not hold a monopoly on ignorant rascists. ~:) The South still has plenty of rascists, but it's a lot more subtle than it was. Overt acts are rare. I would say the most visible racial flashpoints now are in the big cities like Los Angelos and New York.

Groups like the KKK have been weakened by the most powerful attack possible here in the US, the civil lawsuit. Rascist groups have been bankrupted by lawsuits seeking damages for acts perpetrated by members. Without the money, the organization folds. The rascists still exist, but it's harder to recruit, sucker in a new generation, and get the message out. I hate lawyers (does that make me rascist? ~D ), but this is an example of the legal system working for good.

[TheSilverKnight]

I wouldn't say I was offended, I was just trying to point out that the US South does not hold a monopoly on ignorant rascists. ~:) The South still has plenty of rascists, but it's a lot more subtle than it was. Overt acts are rare. I would say the most visible racial flashpoints now are in the big cities like Los Angelos and New York.

Groups like the KKK have been weakened by the most powerful attack possible here in the US, the civil lawsuit. Rascist groups have been bankrupted by lawsuits seeking damages for acts perpetrated by members. Without the money, the organization folds. The rascists still exist, but it's harder to recruit, sucker in a new generation, and get the message out. I hate lawyers (does that make me rascist? ~D ), but this is an example of the legal system working for good.

Thanks for enlightening me over this situation ~:)
and btw, if you hate lawyers, you're not a racist ~D I don't think anyone properly loves lawyers ~;)

[Steppe Merc]

I would have to disagree. There is nothing strange with race at all. There are several different races around and human as a spieces can easily be divided in to races.
The problem is when race is used for discrimination or favorisation.

I can't see anything wrong with calling a black man black or a white man white. I can't see any reason why anyone should be ashame or extra proud over his color and demand special treatment.
But what about say a place like Iran (sorry, I know a pretty good amount of ancient Iranian history, so I'm trying to work with what I know). I mean there were the Iranian speakers such as the Persians and Sakae and Parthians. They were "white" (varrying degrees of darkness, from blonde to dark haired). After that, first Huns then Turkic and and other non Iranian nomads began to encroach into Iran. Then the Arabs invaded, and evauntaully took over. So what is a current Iranian? Other than a genetic test, how do you know what race he is just by looking at him? Is he "white"? Or an Arab?
Is an ancient Iranian nomad "European", even though he lived in Central Asia? Many were probably quite pale, some mummified Scythians looked like Nords.

And what about the many blacks in America who have white blood in them, due to the large amount of children that slave owners had with slaves? If the mother is black and the father is white, what is the kid? Is he black?

[The Stranger]

i think you must not see sumone as muslim white or black but more as a human. i try to do that (i admit its hard and i cant always do it) i'm trying not to be prejudiced and sofar i did that. i'm not saying cant use the terms anymore but when your using it you must know for yourself that they are human first muslim second or human first christian second. alot of people already think that way, and then you have that tiny extreme group about wich we all talk. though the group is small the problems they cause can vary from small to huge.

[yesdachi]

I think being racist is bad but being predijust is ok. ~:)

[Red Harvest]

Pulled this from a CNN article today about Trent Lott's new book. It says alot about the quiet racism in the South, and the continued denial.


A native of Mississippi, Lott recalled feeling "anger in my heart over the way the federal government had invaded Ole Miss to accomplish something that could have been handled peacefully and administratively," a reference to the admission of the University of Mississippi's first black student in 1962.
After nearly 100 years of emancipation, the South still "didn't get it." For both slavery and civil rights, there is still an effort to blame the North/Federal government as having not given them enough time to deal with it on their own. It's like blaming the doctor for ordering you to quit smoking after you develop lung cancer. "I was gonna quit...really...sometime before I died anyway."

[Gawain of Orkeny]

After nearly 100 years of emancipation, the South still "didn't get it." For both slavery and civil rights, there is still an effort to blame the North/Federal government as having not given them enough time to deal with it on their own.

Hes saying he felt that way in 62 not now. Its also true that if the civil war were fought over slavery than it was a real waste of hunmanity as the slaves would have been set free anyway and much of this bad feelings bettween us wouldnt have occured.

[bmolsson]

But what about say a place like Iran (sorry, I know a pretty good amount of ancient Iranian history, so I'm trying to work with what I know). I mean there were the Iranian speakers such as the Persians and Sakae and Parthians. They were "white" (varrying degrees of darkness, from blonde to dark haired). After that, first Huns then Turkic and and other non Iranian nomads began to encroach into Iran. Then the Arabs invaded, and evauntaully took over. So what is a current Iranian? Other than a genetic test, how do you know what race he is just by looking at him? Is he "white"? Or an Arab?
Is an ancient Iranian nomad "European", even though he lived in Central Asia? Many were probably quite pale, some mummified Scythians looked like Nords.

And what about the many blacks in America who have white blood in them, due to the large amount of children that slave owners had with slaves? If the mother is black and the father is white, what is the kid? Is he black?

That would mean that these persons are of mixed race. Not fullblood so to say. It doesn't really matter in daily lives since there should be no difference between races. On a race angel, there are a few races which have different features, like color, size etc.
Today it's not PC to talk about races, but for, as long as there are no discrimination, I can't see any problems talking about it.

[Red Harvest]

Hes saying he felt that way in 62 not now.

That is not clear and based on Lott's past it is doubtful, but without reading the relevant section of the book I can't know the context. CNN Article about Lott's Book (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/18/lott.book.ap/index.html)

The paragraphs following it are:


Later, as a law student at the same school, he remembered the visiting professors from Yale University, brought in to teach constitutional law.

"Instead of making us more liberal, they helped create a generation of thoughtful, issue-oriented conservatives who grew up to run Mississippi politics," he wrote.

And look at what a great job they've done...Mississippi still ranks last or near last in most measures. This implies that he was not that repentant about his former segregationist views, and that he had *not* renounced them altogether.

In this article
History News Network Discussion of Lott's Early Politics (http://hnn.us/comments/5838.html)

The article contains some interesting insights into his segregationist character in there. It would be interesting to hear him explain in the book when his "conversion" occurred and why. He wouldn't comment on this earlier when his statements had him in hot water and cost him his position. Rather than his views changing, it appears that he was astute enough to adapt outward appearance, but not necessarily his beliefs. This is the quiet (or polite?) racism that is more prevalent in the South now.


Gawain:
Its also true that if the civil war were fought over slavery than it was a real waste of hunmanity as the slaves would have been set free anyway and much of this bad feelings bettween us wouldnt have occured.
While this is widely used as an excuse for secession, it is too convenient and not particularly feasible when you try to work through it.

First, the South initiated the war because of slavery, true. (Which is ironic, since slavery in Southern States wasn't directly threatened at the time anyway.) The North didn't go to war to end slavery, it went to war to preserve the Union. Yes, the war was about slavery, but it wasn't instigated by the North. Many avowed Southerners had extended the racism inherent in slavery to conclude that it had made them superior to Northerners as well.

Second, it has never been adequately explained how the South was going to deal with the large slave population on its own, had it been allowed to go its own way. If anything, secession only exacerbated its inability to deal with the problem--it would lack the resources of the North in assisting a transition. Slaves were 40% of the Southern population then, and would have probably been an even higher percentage on whatever date it was that slavery ended. Phaseout ideas had been roundly rejected in the past (such as making slaves children born after X date free once they reached adulthood.) I have not studied emancipation elsewhere, but I can't recall any similar population of the time that was emancipated without a struggle or the loss of the former masters as the source of power. The South had very real reasons to fear what effect freed slaves would have politically and labor wise, and they were very concerned about slaves acheiving political majorities in areas. THIS is the reason for the postwar denial of constitutional rights by the Southern whites, fear (combined with generations of racism.) The result was a sort of Apartheid, and I can't find any compelling reason to believe the same would not have happened if the CSA had gone its own way without war.

Third, to make secession workable without sparking a war, it really did need to be done in such a way that security, waterway, fishing, trade/tariff, and future territorial expansion were resolved in a treaty before it became effective. Absent an agreement, the Union had just cause to fear for its security and future, with a divided neighbor, the South, who were likely to fracture again because of their own impractical States Rights. Even R.E. Lee agreed that it wasn't legal to simply secede. Without certain treaties, even had the South been allowed to go, war was quite likely within a decade.

Fourth, Southerners in slave holding regions indeed considered themselves different from their Northern brethren, while the North was divided into more cultures and regions and abolitionists were a minority. This is a clear indication of how slavery had contorted Southern culture--it was an economic dependency that had produced social dependency. Non-slave economic regions of the South were Unionist or neutral.

Finally, at least another 4 million slaves would have lived all or most of their lives in bondage before slavery would have fully ended, had the South been allowed to secede. As such even the horrendous cost of the war, ~625,000 killed, is perhaps not an overly severe price to pay, dear as it was.

[Azi Tohak]

Anybody else amazed this is still civil?

It is nice to know I'm not living in a vacuum thinking racism is not solely restricted to white males.

Does nationalism breed racism? It sounds really odd coming from an American I know (half German, half UK [yes, Brit, Scot, Welsh all mixed in]), but does thinking, for example, the USA (or Canada or France) is the greatest nation on earth, lead people to think of all others as inferior because of race? Or is there another term for that? I don't know how an American could think that being an American is superior to being any European country, because most all of us have more than one nation in our blood. We all look the same! I just don't know if that is 'racism' or has another term.

Azi

[The Stranger]

I think being racist is bad but being predijust is ok. ~:)

the lines between prejudiced and racistic is pretty thin and i think that many people cant be able to see the difference. prejudiced is oke as long you atleast give the other the chance to prove himself

[Al Khalifah]

I remember reading something saying that many of English are a distinctly different race to the Scots, Irish and Welsh. Does that mean you're a racist if you dislike the Scots ? Not saying I do or anything...

[The Stranger]

no but when you hate them you are a racist, cuz you hate every scot nomatter who and how they are. you wouldnt give them a chance to prove themselve and when you encounter one you really would like to harm them. then you are a racist.

[The Stranger]

oh and the reason you hate them is becuz they are scots not becuz they did something to you.

[Leet Eriksson]

In the Middle East Racism is quite prevalent, being a non-Arab/Non Islamic in many places could get you killed easily.

No, it could get you a job.

if there are people who still think the same as the quoted person, then you haven't visited the middle east yet.

[Geoffrey S]

And what about the many blacks in America who have white blood in them, due to the large amount of children that slave owners had with slaves? If the mother is black and the father is white, what is the kid? Is he black?
One could argue in similar cases that it's down to upbringing, not the way one looks. Sort of "black on the outside, white on the inside". Which rather backs up the idea that race isn't a good basis on which to judge people, simply because in many cases broad prejudices aren't relevant to particular people.

[The Stranger]

yeah, but racists dont care, they usually just want someone to bash.