Moving some of Africa's megafauna to the U.S.

[Pindar]

Here is a link: Africa (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050818/sc_afp/eastafricausscience_050818172543)

What are the collective opinions on this? Is U.S. hubris tantamount to theft? Is this a viable way to save species under threat? Does opposition boil down to preserving tourism monies irrespective of declining populations?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Is this a viable way to save species under threat?

Are we going to import Pygmies and Head Hunters also and let them have land to roam free on? ~D

[Proletariat]

As much as I'd like to see elephants and lions and (hopefully if this works out) tigers roaming our countryside, isn't there terrible precedent for this sort of species continent transfer?

The arguments against from your link are kind of inane, imo.


"Africa has well-established animal conservation parks and besides, America does not understand how to conserve some of these animals like the ones they are suggesting.

Yeah, African scientist are doing a bang-up job. The Americans are just cattle observing buffoons, I s'pose.


"If they want to preserve these animals, they should help Africa set up animal conservation sanctuaries in Africa itself, not America."

Erm, we'll be spending the cash, so how about we get to have it here.

A good argument would be that we already have enough animals that are endangered in our own continent to worry about the African ones, but oh well.

Just my 2p on a topic I don't know much about.

[Samurai Waki]

I agree with keeping the conservation of Africa's megafauna in Africa. However, I don't think it is theft. And perhaps slowly building up a sanctuary in the US, as well as the ones in Africa would probably be Tanzania's interest. By Theft, I think they mean it might hamper their tourism business.

[Steppe Merc]

How can you relocate large amounts of animals in foriegn land? That is just wrong, I think. I mean, small areas are good, but I don't really buy it. How about protecting the ones in their natrual habitat, not changing it!

But I agree with Prole in that they choose the wrong arguments.

[Quietus]

Removing animals from the wild is tantamount to extinction. Animals need to be able to hunt and gather by themselves. Noone's going to imprint them at all to hunt in a zoo-like environment.

[Hurin_Rules]

Well, America's already got lots of ultra-conservatives, why shouldn't it have the rest of the dinosaurs? ~:)

[Strike For The South]

Theres got to be something bettter these guys can do with there time like cure cancer or find ou whats inside a twinkee

[Don Corleone]

I started out as a pre-med biology student. Based on what I understand of how evolution works, this is a terrible, horrible mistake. If man had caused the meta-fauna's demise, then maybe, maybe man has a role bringing them back in. But that's not how it happened. This is trying to veto mother nature and from what I understand, is a terrible idea. Think Kudzu or Japanese beetles. Removing a species from a place it naturally developed & thrived means all sorts of things:

-Don't have natural predators
-Dont' have natural prey
-New parasites, bacteria, viruses
-No concept of how the local flora will coexist
-How will the meta-fauna of North America co-exist?
-Can the African meta-fauna survive the climate differences. I'm not just talking temperature here... wind, rain, sunlight/cloudiness... all these things influence a species ability to survive and to thrive.

If anything, we should be looking for ways to reverse the affects of our own impact on the native North American biospheres, not radically alter them so we can look out our back window and talk about how cool it is that we saw a lion bring down a water buffalo in our backyard. (And do you really want your kids to witness that?)

[Red Harvest]

I can't see how this is workable. If you thought there were complaints about wolves and bison, imagine the complaining when a herd of elephants knocks down your barn or house? And lions...incredible animals...I still remember how our cattle reacted to the sound of mountain lions passing through when I was a teen. (Scared the whizz out of me too when I was out trying to settle the cattle at night.)

It's a bad idea introducing another large non-native species like this. Last I saw, elephants were not endangered, except in specific regions. The ones that might be eligible as a surival measure would be specific forest elephants (there are at least two types known now.)

[Steppe Merc]

And I think that African Elephants would be messed to say the least by relocation. I think they have certaint paths and water holes that they go to year after year, and the idea of taking them from the wild to make some idoitic zoo that will surely fail is insane.

[Don Corleone]

Good point Steppe, and what's more, it's cruel. It's been shown that family bonds between lions, hippos & elephants are actually stronger than they are among humans (which is saying a lot).

What's more, you can't move the part of an ecosystem you want. You have to take the whole kit&kaboodle. This is a disaster waiting to happen. I was surprised to hear NPR endorsing it (well, giving it airtime).

[Samurai Waki]

A similar thing happened in my home state. First the relocated a predator that had been extinct in the region, they thought that the wolves would just sit in one little sanctuary for all of existance, but no... they escaped, and are now breeding like wild fire, so much so, that farmers are allowed to shoot them if they find them are their property, and are even considering setting up permits to kill them... Earlier on they tried reintroducing some kind of mountain sheep from Colorado, about a year into the program a massive virus swept through and killed about 2/3rds of the population, and then winter set in, and killed about another 1/3 of the remaing Mountain Sheep. a Few still exist, but the population dwindles every year, between predators, and mother nature they will die out once again from the region in an estimated 10 years. AND I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT NORTH AMERICAN NATIVE SPECIES!

No... now that I think of it, I believe these animals from Africa would probably suffer an even more miserable fate.

[Red Harvest]

I was surprised to hear NPR endorsing it (well, giving it airtime).

I saw it on CNN with an AP attribution. Was NPR the source of the report? Welcome back, your deprogramming is coming along ~;) ...nice catch on airtime vs. endorsement. I guess I've never felt NPR was endorsing things by presenting things I disagreed with. I might want to strangle the *individual* behind the report or the person being quoted, but that's a seperate matter. ~D

While we're on the topic of whacky wide ranging ecological ideas: Do you remember the one about 8 or 10 years ago about seeding iron into iron-deficient regions of the ocean (Indian ocean primarily IIRC?) The idea was to cause a mushrooming of plankton growth in the areas and thereby absorb CO2. It was scarey to me primarily because we are just starting to understand how the ocean circulation works and how it effects global weather, not to mention interactions with other marine life. The idea of experimenting to understand things better is one thing, but trying to enact global policy to control CO2 that way...it's too out of the box for me. It seems more like letting a 5 year old drive a pickup truck on the freeway.

[Azi Tohak]

I can see it now: We breed them by the millions, and set up the entire Great Plains region as an elite mega big game hunting zone.

Count me in!

:rifle:

Hey! Wait a minute! I live in the middle of the Great Plains! ~;)

But that would be cool... send Freshmen out to snipe-hunt, while they are really lion bait. Sweet.

Steppe has a good point. But also the weather too. I don't think the Serenghetti plains have the huge temp change that I've got here in Kansas, despite the similarities in the terrain (insert 'flat as a pancake joke here: ________). I think we are too far north, and therefore have bigger temp changes than where much of the megafauna lives.

Azi

[Strike For The South]

Snipe hunting classic ~:cheers:

[Red Harvest]

You know...the polar ice is receeding rapidly. Perhaps we'll get some polar bears too.

"Honey, you'll never believe what I just saw riding the ski lift!"

I've always wanted a pet anteater to deal with the fireants. Not only would food be free, but I figured I could rent him out as a profit center.

I can see it now, 75 cattle, and one anteater...

[PanzerJaeger]

If the Africans cant do it - and lets face it, they cant hardly do anything right over there - and weve got the money and land set up, why not? The article implied that they arent doing well in africa, so lets buy some and bring them over here and give it a shot.

Really though, i just want Cube's big game park to become a reality. That would just be beyond awesome! :rifle:

[Sjakihata]

before it was slaves, now it is elephants, will they never learn?

[Ja'chyra]

I think there needs to be a whole lot of thought beofre this could be attempted, those species might have died out for a reason other then man.


Quote:
"Africa has well-established animal conservation parks and besides, America does not understand how to conserve some of these animals like the ones they are suggesting.



Yeah, African scientist are doing a bang-up job. The Americans are just cattle observing buffoons, I s'pose.

I'm pretty sure that African, or whatever nationality, conservation workers will have more idea how to work with the animals they are responsible for than anyone else, after all they are the ones with the experiance. And they're not doing too bad a job, but if the had the proper resources they could do better.

[Idaho]

A brief glance at humanity's track record on species relocation should have this idea swiftly filed under B-I-N.

[Strike For The South]

A prelude? (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/18/tiger.attack.ap/index.html)

[Proletariat]

A statement from the office said Hilderbrand was at the Lost Creek Animal Sanctuary posing for photos with the 7-year-old tiger, which was being restrained by its handler, when the animal turned and attacked her.

This type of death never fails to draw absolutely zero sympathy from me. 17 or not, what an idiot.

[Azi Tohak]

before it was slaves, now it is elephants, will they never learn?

Are you from PETA by chance?

And about the tiger killing someone... what did you expect a tiger to do? The only 'safe' large mammals are dogs, thanks to thousands of years of domestication. But even some of them are bad apples. Tigers are beautiful... but you're a damned fool if you just think it is a big kitty.

Azi

[yesdachi]

Interesting article. There a few things that comes to mind when I read it.

1. Out of sight out of mind. I’m willing to bet that lots of the funding for the sanctuaries in Africa, are sponsored by Americans (and rock stars). If there were an extension of one of the sanctuaries in the US more people would see the animals and be more encouraged to give to the cause.

2. Most of the animals mentioned are already in the US in zoos and do well here. They are more adaptable than many think.

3. As long as an American sanctuary/reserve is not paid for by my tax dollars, who cares? Let whoever do whatever! The US is a “free country” if you want to build a farm and fill it with cows, pigs, elephants, zebra, lions, (pigmies, I think they are cute but they do bite so be careful) etc. go for it. Just don’t break any laws.

4. Africa is a mess. Financially, economically, socially, etc.

5. This is a sour one but do we really need any of those animals? Do we need to see a comeback of cheetah? Or elephants? Or whatever? They are nice to look at and I don’t like the idea of anything going extinct but should we help an unnecessary species grow. I hate spiders but we need them. Do we need cheetah? and do we need them in the US?

Well that’s my 2 florins.

[Red Harvest]

I'm finding some of the "Africans are idiots" comments with respect to conservation a bit tiresome. It's not "scientists" who preserve game, it is nations and people. A scientist won't get far in preserving game vs. professional hunters with guns, or a developer with a bulldozer, or a horde of new suburbanites wanting homes.

We hunted most large species to near extinction in the U.S. by the 1920's. Surviving animals were off in more remote areas. Remember the bison? Mountain lion's were wiped out in the state I grew up in by the 20's as were bears and wolves. These mountain lions and bears have been sporadically reappearing in small numbers and I was lucky enough to be along a natural corridor that would allow them to re-enter the state. Turkey and deer had been hunted down to small populations that took decades to recover, and have only fully recovered in the past 20 years.

So before you go ripping on the Africans, ask yourself this, where is our megafauna? Most of it is dead or extinct and has been so for a long time. Ditto for Europe where the larger species became extinct centuries ago.

[A.Saturnus]

It worked so well in Australia...

[Steppe Merc]

Yeah, with those damn giant toads? Or is that something else?


3. As long as an American sanctuary/reserve is not paid for by my tax dollars, who cares? Let whoever do whatever! The US is a “free country” if you want to build a farm and fill it with cows, pigs, elephants, zebra, lions, (pigmies, I think they are cute but they do bite so be careful) etc. go for it. Just don’t break any laws.
I care, because I care about other living animals.


2. Most of the animals mentioned are already in the US in zoos and do well here. They are more adaptable than many think.
Ok. Most weren't taken from the wild, and they are not trying to recreate their natraul environment in the zoo. Totally different.

And PJ and Cube, you disgust me...

[PanzerJaeger]

So before you go ripping on the Africans, ask yourself this, where is our megafauna? Most of it is dead or extinct and has been so for a long time. Ditto for Europe where the larger species became extinct centuries ago.

That might have been true 30 years ago, but today we are constantly taking species off the endangered species list, especially the big predators.

The only reason we have brought the bison back is because we dont want to. They arent as tasty and profitable as beef. There are thousands of bison herds around the country - ive hunted them, they arent near extinction - and if there was enough of a movement to bring them back, we could.

Americans are very good at conservation - when we want to be. Apparently the africans are not, or there wouldnt be a movement to take such a drastic step to save them.

[Redleg]

That might have been true 30 years ago, but today we are constantly taking species off the endangered species list, especially the big predators.

The only reason we have brought the bison back is because we dont want to. They arent as tasty and profitable as beef. There are thousands of bison herds around the country - ive hunted them, they arent near extinction - and if there was enough of a movement to bring them back, we could.

Americans are very good at conservation - when we want to be. Apparently the africans are not, or there wouldnt be a movement to take such a drastic step to save them.


Yes indeed the Bison are making a comeback - the Herd in Yellowstone has about overgrown their grazing at the Park. The Wolves were re-introduced into the ecosystem after being hunted out of the lower 48 by the ranchers and farmers to help keep the Herd at a certain level by using nature. However it seems that the now 200+ wolves of Yellowstone orginally came as a gift from Canada where they were used to hunting Elk. BTW once again we must thank Canada for allowing one of the best Predators of nature be re-introduced into the lower 48. (contray to Panzer the wolf comeback has nothing to do with American conservation since we hunted them out of existance in the lower 48.)

BTW the Park is concerned about both the Elk Herd and the Wolves because it seems the Elk have migrated and the wolves have been primarily hunting Elk. If the wolves move off of the reservation - they will be killed by the ranchers outside of the Park. And the wolves have not hunted the Bison herd like orginally planned.

The good news is that when I was in Yellowstone this summer I herd one of the wolf packs sounding like they were hunting the buffalo - and since I saw the herd disappear at the same time - it was not a hard assumption to make.
But like all assumptions I could be completely wrong with it.

[Azi Tohak]

Dang skippy its good! Tender and not nearly as much fat as cow. As far as I know, the only problem is actually growing bison. There is very little that will keep a bison in a pen. They go right through barbed wire... Too bad though, I would love to have some here.

Azi

[Louis VI the Fat]

"If they want to preserve these animals, they should help Africa set up animal conservation sanctuaries in Africa itself, not America."Let's believe what everybody quoted in that article has to say.
i.e. the Africans want to keep the animals in Africa because they need to protect their tourism industry. And America does not understand how to conserve African game.
And that the only concern of the Americans is wildlife preservation.

Then the easy solution is to just buy a chunk of land in Africa the size of the entire Midwest.

They get to keep those tourist-magnet animals for themselves. Land and park ranger wages in Africa are much cheaper than in America, so the Americans can save more animals per buck.

:balloon2:

[Louis VI the Fat]

So before you go ripping on the Africans, ask yourself this, where is our megafauna? Most of it is dead or extinct and has been so for a long time. Ditto for Europe where the larger species became extinct centuries ago.American megafauna disappeared when the native Americans colonized the America's twelve thousand years ago.

Native Americans were definately not 'in balance with nature' as their present day image suggests.

Ditto for Europe again. Megafauna disapeared at the end of the last ice-age, when the continent was ready for major human colonization. Australian megafauna was wiped out 40.000 years ago by the ancestors of the aboriginals, not in the 18th/19th century. Same for New Zealand, 1500 years ago.
It was not the arrival of 'whites' or modern man that has caused most mass extinctions of megafauna. It was the arrival of man period.
Only Africa escaped this fate because it's megafauna got a few million years to adapt to man and evolve alongside us.

Clicky. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/programmes/tv/monsterswemet/)

[Samurai Waki]

Buffalo is a lot greasier than Beef. Having that said. they do taste quite a bit alike (buffalo are a bit more lean, and therefore a tad more gamier).

[Aenlic]

Nah, I think we should go ahead and play with the ecosystem some more.

Look at all of the brilliant examples.

There was the bright guy who decided to import every species of bird mentioned in Shakespeare to the United States. The European starlings, with no natural enemies except jet engines, are still a problem around airports and military bases today.

The gypsy moth was introduced into New England from France in 1869 by an entymologist who hoped to establish a new textile trade by interbreeding them with silk moths. They escaped, of course, and nearly defoliated New England.

There was the idea to raise rabbits in Australia.

There was the idea to introduce foxes to control the horrible result of the rabbits idea.

There was the idea to introduce bush-tailed opposum from Australia into New Zealand to establish a new fur trade.

There was the idea to import kudzu vine from Japan to shade mansions in the southern U.S. in the 1876. Ask a farmer in the south about that one.

There was South American water hyacinth transplanted to the U.S. for it's beauty.

And let's not forget the experiment to "africanize" the Brazilian honey bee.

How about the Nile perch introduced in 1962 into Lake Victoria to establish a fishing industry. It's estimated that over 300 species of indigenous fish in the lake are now extinct as a result, including the species most favored for flavor by the local fishermen.

There is the American cane toad, a poisonous species that no native species will eat, introduced into Queensland in the 1930's to protect cane fields. Extinctions of native species continue as the frog expands it's territory some 17 miles/year in all directions.

That's a short list of just a few of the intentional exotic species introductions. The unintenional list, which is much longer, includes such lovely species as the zebra mussel and Asian clam introduced from ships' ballast, the poisonous Indian Ocean/Pacific lionfish now being seen off the coast of North Carolina, and everyone's personal favorite in the U.S. southeast, the fire ant.

I say we do more with less understanding! It's the human way!

[Red Harvest]

That might have been true 30 years ago, but today we are constantly taking species off the endangered species list, especially the big predators.

The only reason we have brought the bison back is because we dont want to. They arent as tasty and profitable as beef. There are thousands of bison herds around the country - ive hunted them, they arent near extinction - and if there was enough of a movement to bring them back, we could.

Americans are very good at conservation - when we want to be. Apparently the africans are not, or there wouldnt be a movement to take such a drastic step to save them.

Only in your mind PJ. The Africans scoffed at the suggestion. It was proposed by Americans according to the article, so your whole basis is bass ackwards.

As it is, the big predators and such were driven out of their ranges here long ago. Your prejudiced sense of superiority doesn't fit too well with the way things have happened. Considering their relative poverty, African conservation efforts have been commendable. In our past when subsistence living and population density rose the species disappeared from all those ranges. That's one reason so many species differed from states in the 1920's as my grandparents attest--much of their meet came from subsistence hunting. Get some perspective.

That woodpecker that was rediscovered? The last time it had been spotted, governors of 4 different states tried to halt the Chicago Mill Co. from cutting off its habitat. The company response was, and I quote, "We are just money grubbers."