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View Full Version : Countdown to Open Beta - Pahlava



khelvan
08-21-2005, 03:05
Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans!


We’re back again, and those of you who have been keeping track know that we are almost out of factions too! But we’ve got a good one for you today.

The EB team is proud to present:


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We are nomads, yet not for long.

We live below the Amu-Darya River and around the grasslands of the Karakum, yet not for long.

Our neighbours are few, but not to be trusted. To the north and west, the Sauromatae wander, kin to the Skythians. Their eyes are turned to their south and west, but they might find lands to conquer in the east too. Many times have we contested with them for grazing rights and they have not forgotten our sending them flying back across the Amu-Darya. To the south and east, the Seleukid Empire stretches along our border. Our young warriors have made many forays into the lands of the southerners, returning with much loot.Even out brothers, the Dahae wait for us to show weakness, ever ready to pounce. We will lead them to victory, but trust them? Never!

If you are to take on the Seleukid Empire, and one day you will have to, you must attack when the time is right. If the Seleukids have no enemies, except you, they will send their great phalanx- armies to our lands.
If they are at war on multiple fronts however, they might not have enough soldiers to spare, so we can grab more land from them. And the Seleukid Empire is wide and the eyes of its rulers can only see so far. Their subjects do not hold fast to their vows of loyalty and this will be our chance. Revolts will flare up in its distant satrapies, some which conveniently lie near us and could be exploited to our advantage.
And rumours from the East have reached our ears, that might benefit us. The Greek satrap of Baktria lusts for a kingship of his own. And he has soldiers enough to break away from Seleukeia. Should these two ‘Successors’ fight each other we can profit. Their armies will be depleted and some of their provinces will have fewer defenders.

As a leader of the Pahlav, you will command different troops. The clans provide skilled mounted archers, and infantry levy, while the nobility among our people will provide you with heavily armoured cataphracts, trained to charge the enemy knee-to-knee. In battle, your horse archers will pepper the enemy with arrows, probing for any weak spots in their battle line for your cataphracts to charge through.

Our future is to the south, in the rich lands of Persia. Decades ago Iskander came from the west, defeating the massed host of Persia in two big battles and putting an end to the once mighty Persian Empire. The people to the south, might not look at us with favourable eyes, indeed their former kings called us Dahae, or robbers, but we share more with them, than the Greeks do. If the Seleukid Empire collapses, they might be 'persuaded' to accept a Pahlavan king who brings order, and restores the temples of their fathers, and brings honour to the teachings of the good prophet Zarathustra. Indeed, worship of Ahura-Mazda might benefit a Pahlav King, or perhaps...a Pahlav Shahanshah? Without armies, the Persians won't object.

Maybe you can be a new Kurush, a ‘Pahlavan’ Iskander. Follow in the footsteps of the conquerors. The lands to the south and east are there for the taking, you just have to know when and where to strike, if you wish to keep any spoils of war.


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In 247 BC, Aršak, or Arsaces as he was later known, leader of the Parni, a branch of the Dahae Scyths, was crowned king. This name may very well be his clan title rather than his given name. As we see in later Parthian times, the tradition of having a “family” or tribal name was quite common among the Parthian nobles. Families of Suren, Karen, Espahbad, Naudar, and other Parthian noble families all carried their personal names as well as the above family names. Additionally, the tradition of having a regal name was also common from the Achaemenid times, as almost all Achaemenid emperors after Darius II seem to have chosen a dynastic name upon their accession.

It was he who led his people south and overthrew the Seleukid governor of Parthia in 238 BC, this same governor, who was himself in revolt against his overlords. He would establish a kingdom that would last for almost 500 years. At the height of their power, the Parthians were second only to Rome and were the only civilized nation able to stand up to her.

Parthia's beginnings were not easy. Arsaces I, initially controlled little more than Parthia, and neighbouring Hyrcania and they faced vigorous Seleukid attempts to recapture those lost dominions. In 226 BCE and again in 210 BCE, the Seleukids invaded in force. The Parthians retreated before them, only to return seizing yet more land when Seleukid attention fatally drifted towards the Hellenic western part of their empire. By the mid century things had changed. After a long war, the Parthian king Mithradates I had conquered Media and invaded Mesopotamia. This time, the Seleukid counterattack was fought and totally defeated. The Seleukid king Demetrios II, was captured and held prisoner, and upon his death Mithradates I ruled over Parthia, Hyrcania, Media, Babylonia, Assyria, Elymais and Persis. Parthia was now to be a world power.

When the Parthian kingdom was founded in the mid 3rd century BC, it was made up of a small Scythian tribe, the Parni, and it’s army was relatively small consisting chiefly of horse archers and the better armoured tribal chieftains. These skilled riders were served as part of the tribal host only in times of war. When the war was over, these warriors returned home with their loot to their everyday lives. As a result, their concepts of war was confined to raids and counter raids. Through out this period the Parthians remained a semi- nomadic people who made their living from horse and cattle breeding. However, contact with Persian style of warfare and the changing needs of a society no longer based on a nomadic lifestyle brought new concepts of warfare. This settled existence not only eroded their steppe culture but probably caused a rapid erosion of their horse and archery skills as well.

Theoretically the Parthian king could call upon all those within the realm to serve in his armies. The Arascid king's major stumbling block was his own Azad nobles. The royal council was comprised the representatives of the Parthian clans, towns and vassal states. The only obligation some of these vassal states had to the Arascid dynasty was supplying troops for military service. However this council was effectively controlled by the lords of the Seven Great Clans. As a result the kings relied heavily on their own hereditary lands for the core of their armies. This was supplemented by Sakae nomadic mercenaries and those Nobles of the realm with a vested interest of advancing their fortunes by such service.

Parthian armies had to operate in all types of terrain and climates from the hot flatlands of Aryavarta which would later be called India, the arid central plateau of Iran, the cold northern steppes and the high mountains of Armenia and Gandhara. Their enemies varied from slow-moving pikemen of the Hellenic armies to their nimble and swift kin from the eastern steppe. Parthian military thinking was therefore based on the ideas of mobility, adaptability and self-sufficiency, it could be no other way. The plan of any battle was the Cataphract charge, a massed attack knee-to-knee by heavy cavalry, the light horse archers supported this by probing for weak points to be exploited with concentrated archery. The archers did terrible damage to massed troops and this would force the enemy to disperse. If they did so, they left themselves exposed to the charge of the heavy Cataphracts. With the light and heavy cavalry deployed, the Pahlavan cavalry was able to bring down of one form of attack, or the other as the situation dictated. It was this tactic that shattered the Roman legions at the battle of Carrhae.

The tribal host formed the bulk of the Parthian army and would have provided the bulk of the Hamspah or levies, mounted archers and the infantry levy. Each clan Family mustered under their Wuzurgan grandees and the lesser Azadan leaders, bringing with them retainers from their lands and these would fight together in the same units. They used probably the best weapon for the horseman, which was the composite horse bow. This was similar to the simple bow but used multiple types of wood, horn and sinew to produce a stronger bow with a greater draw weight, the force built up in the string that will propel the arrow forward to its target.

The wars between the Greeks and the Persians and final Alexandrian conquest showed the Pahlava that lightly armed infantry could not stop heavy, well-trained, infantry of the type employed by the Greeks and later Romans. They themselves had a healthy contempt for such light infantry in their many raids of more civilized lands. These heavy infantry could only be countered with heavily armed cataphracts and tough veteran horse archers able to cause disorder in the massed ranks and then attacking vulnerable points with archery and lance. This was a lesson they learned well and would prove on the field of battle. The Romans and Greeks came to respect the Parthian in a way they never respected the Persian.

The Parthian Kingdom was smaller than that of the Achaemenid Persians, and closer in many ways to later european feudal states. There was for example no standing army, just as in feudal europe. There were of course the garrisons of the Hellenic Polis and vital forts were garrisoned. The armed retinues of the Wuzurgan grandees, the Azadan minor nobility, Zandbed and Dehbed tribal chiefs, along with the local kings, Šahrdaran, and princes of royal blood, the Waspuhragan.

The Great King as Sar-Xwaday, Overlord, appealed to his subordinate kings, the Šahrdaran, the Azad nobles, garrison commanders, and most importantly the tribal lords to muster what they could and bring them to an appointed place at a given time. The assembled host would be placed under the command of a Spahbed or general, trusted by the Great King. The core of the army, or Spad was the feudal or tribal nobility. Accustomed to hard riding from an early age and skilled in archery and skirmishing, the Pahlavan cavalry would come to be known as something to fear. Their name echoes in eternity as the term Pahlavan, means Hero in Persian.

The Pahlavan nation was ever under threat, and they never suffered for a lack of enemies. The North Iranian nomads, the Dahae, Sakae, and Sauromatae constantly threatened the eastern borders while in the west first the Seleukids and then the Romans were ever ready for full scale war. Few nations have ever faced such a combination of enemies and finding an army that would both was no easy matter. Rapid mobility was essential for no slow moving army could possibly match the light cavalry of the nomads to the north. Infantry were not very useful in such a situation and not worth what Romans or Greeks paid for them. The answer was the Asabaran, pronounced Asavaran in Parthian. The Parthians did have foot soldiers and when large numbers of Greeks or Romans were captured they had no hesitation in putting them to use. They could however never be more than a small part of the Parthian army. They could not afford to maintain a massive army of heavy infantry to counter the nomadic cavalry, nor could the Romans, who when faced with this same situation, took to the same solution.

The mainstay of the infantry were foot archers. These foot archers almost certainly represented the poorer elements of the various infantry levies of Parthia. The tradition of mounted archery in Parthia and the northern steppe peoples makes it almost inevitable that a massed levy would produce significant numbers of foot archers as well.

When Persia was conquered by Alexander the Great, Alexander originally attempt to bring a fusion of Persian and Greek culture. However this attempt at a fusion was to collapse upon his death, and lead to the alienation of the Persian elite and the rejection of Greek culture by the Persians. In Persia kingship and religion were tied together in a way that the Greeks poorly understood. The world had been created by Ahura Mazda and it was he who ordained the monarch. There were those who responded to the appeal of Hellenism but as elsewhere it was associated with a secular spirit repulsive to most near eastern peoples. However, it is also true that Alexander destroyed Zoroastrian sanctuaries, persecuted priests and destroyed religious writings. In doing so the 'accursed Alexander' created an army of priests who saw Hellenism as the enemies. In addition to their religious duties, these priests served as judges, tax collectors and scribes. They were in a unique position to do harm to the Greek cause in Iran.

Traditional Zoroastrianism was revived slowly under the Parthian, or Arsacid, dynasty, which ruled from about 250 bc to ad 224. By the time of the Sassanid dynasty, from ad 224 to 651, Zoroastrianism had become the popular religion among most groups in Iran and Central Asia and was practiced from the Middle East to the western border of China.

Their empire began to decline in the 2nd century AD, as Parthia was chronically weakened by internal struggle, and the rebellion of Ardashir of Persis in 220 AD sounded its death knell. Such bloody conflicts were not uncommon within the ruling Arsacid family and the loyalty of the great noble lords was often dubious. The last Parthian king, Artabanos IV, was killed in the battle of Hormuzdagan in 224 AD and Ardashir was crowned as the first Sassanid king. The first acts of the Sassanid dynasty was the systematic destruction of everything Parthian and under the hammer and fire of Sassanid fury went the records of what had once been a proud nation.


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-Unit Descriptions-


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Dehbed Asavara

The Dehbeds are noble armoured cavalry, using the Kontos in a two-handed grip and able to charge home if needed. They rely on the composite horse bow kept in a Gorytos on the left side to weaken their enemy before closing for melee. They can afford a better class of equipment than typical horse archers, including a scale corselet split at the sides that hangs to the rider’s waist when he is in the saddle. They also carry lances, and are not afraid to close in for melee if the opportunity presents itself, but are sensible enough not to hurl themselves into the fray against unbroken infantry. The Dehbeds are much cheaper to raise and maintain than Cataphracts or Asavaran and form the majority of shock cavalry. The Dehbed cavalry is a very flexible force, being extremely mobile and able both to provide concentrated archery or when required to charge, fully able to drive home an attack.

Historically, the Dehbeds were the lesser nobility and village chieftains not yet having risen to their more prominent role under the Sassanids, men who led their Bandaka retainers to war. These units of the lesser aristocracy were composed of men of well above average station. The Dehbeds were members of the Azad nobility of Parthia. Descendents of the lords of smaller clans and the chieftains of tribal times, they formed the warbands of the great feudal lords (azad). They were a class of noble warriors, their vassalage to the Parthian King expressed in their duty and their privilege of serving in the feudal cavalry. They would evolve into the Dihqans of Sassanid times.


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Mada Asabara

These cavalry are raised from the old Persian estates not seized by the Macedonian invaders. They are equipped with a cavalry spear and the single bladed Tabar axe with a vicious back-spike, well capable of penetrating heavy armour. The spear could be couched as a lance, but is more usually used overarm as a thrusting weapon. The shield used by these horsemen is the crescent-shaped Scythian Taka shield. They ride Median horses, noted for their size and strength. Although not particularly tall, about 14 or 15 hands, they have large heads and strong necks with most being chestnuts, browns or blacks. All in all, they constitute a useful, reliable medium cavalry best used for flank or rear attacks.

Historically, these noble cavalrymen were descended from the Huvaka, Kinsmen cavalry who had faced Alexander the Great during late imperial times and had served the Achaemenid kingdom of Persia. The Parthians came to Persia as invaders, but invaders of Iranian blood and language. Sharing a common culture and a common enemy, the Parthians quickly made common cause with the old Persian nobility, taking hold of an advantage that the Seleukids, intent on Hellenizing Iran, never could. The Parthians now had an additional source of cavalry, those from the old Achaemenid imperial core regions of Persis and Media.

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Mada Nizak Asabara

The ancient homeland of the Medes gives rise to these light cavalrymen whose first weapon of choice is the javelin. These horsemen are skilled at skirmishing and are also adept at closing in for the kill against disordered enemies. Mounted on a swift horse, armed with nothing but a small crescent-shaped 'Taka' shield, short spear, and a handful of javelins these swift moving horsemen can be deadly.

Historically, the Iranian people of the Mada, Medes to the Greeks, inhabited this rich land, a high mountainous plateau and once the centre of a powerful empire. Older than Parthia, older than the Achaemenid Empire, Media has always held centre place in any of the great kingdoms of the Iranian lands. The rich pastures of Media and Persis were not conductive to the free ranging lifestyle of the nomad. These light horsemen from settled populations took the place of nomadic light cavalry.


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Thanvare Payahdag

These foot archers almost certainly represented the poorer elements of the various infantry levies of Parthia. These men are skirmishers only and not inclined to close with enemy troops. The station usually assigned to these Parthian bowmen is behind the first line of spearmen and forward of them in skirmishing lines. These troops can be vital to any army, harassing and confusing enemy troops as they advanced, and shielding the flanks of the battle line from light cavalry and other enemy skirmishing units.

Historically, the Achaemenid Persian army relied heavily on its archers as the mainstay of their infantry. In a similar vein, the Parthians enlist these same archers for their own use. Parthian infantry were mostly archers and skirmishers, intended to screen the cavalry while it deployed for battle. The tradition of mounted archery in Parthia and the northern steppe peoples makes it almost inevitable that a massed levy would produce significant numbers of foot archers as well.

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Eransahr Nizagan

The Eransahr Nizagan are recruited from the eastern reaches of the Parthian domain as well as the more settled regions of Persis and Media. Armed with an 8' spear and a composite short bow, these infantry are well suited to facing nomadic enemies. They can either engage in archery duels and expect to win or fight as close order troops which nomadic cavalry is often reluctant to engage. They are versatile and can be dangerous if used properly. They are however no match for Graeco-Roman armoured infantry and against such enemies they should rely on archery to inflict harm on their foes. They can hold the line against weaker infantry and cavalry but they cannot be relied upon to put up an extended fight if the situation is not in their favour. Individually, they are skilled but not outstanding warriors, but their versatility ensures that they will be useful to any commander.

The vast Iranian plateau gave rise to a form of, dual-armed infantry rarely seen in the west. However, such troops combining spear and bow were very common in the Iranian world, forming the backbone of the tribal infantry and a major part of the Parthian infantry levy. They could also fight for Hellenistic overlords, such as those in Bactria, after the Macedonian conquest of the Achaemenid Empire.

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Zradha Pahlavans

This heavy Cataphract cavalry provides the hammer which forces infantry to stand their formations, providing the horse archers with the perfect target. If the enemy should break ranks the shock tactics employed by the Parthians on their armoured mounts were lightning quick and brutally efficient. These are the men that in Parthian armies were expected to deliver the crushing blow that brought victory. The arms they wield are the lance for shock action and the heavy mace to bludgeon armoured opponents. They are superbly equipped with a helm and attached scale aventail. A corselet of iron scale armour would protect the torso and laminated (banded) arm guards would emerge from the shoulder, completely encasing the arms down to the wrist. Thigh guards and leg defences of banded armour would be attached to quilted cuisses secured to the belt with leather thongs.

Historically, a Cataphract charge was generally less impetuous than the charges of the feudal knights of Western Europe, but very effective due to the discipline and the concentrated mass of troops deployed. Any army consistently faced with the light horse tactics used by the steppe peoples tended to adopt a very cautious approach to battle.Zradha Pahlavans means armoured heroes, and the cataphracts were at Carrhae and in every Parthian army recorded.

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Azad Asavaran

The Asavaran are the elite cavalry of the Azad nobility. On the battlefield Asavaran nobles are often used to break through an enemy line after it has been weakened by archery, carrying all before them in a disciplined, dangerous charge. They are equipped as armoured lancers wearing heavy bronze scale corselets, and trained from birth to charge with lances in a tight knee-to-knee formation. Laminated vambraces would protect their arms and legs, a flexible armour of overlapping leather or bronze bands They do not bother with shields as both hands are needed to manipulate the two handed Kontos lance and the straight Iranian longsword. These Parthian nobles are superb horsemen, who can put most infantry units to flight. Mounted on the strong Nisean breed of horse these heavy cavalrymen, while not the equal of the Cataphracts, cannot be ignored.

Historically, the Asavaran used tactics of speed and manoeuvrability, especially in the charge which was carried out at a full gallop in tight formations. They wore cloaks that could also be used for concealment, as they were at least less conspicuous than the armour underneath and fit in well with the brightly outfitted horse archers. They had large flat golden collars around their necks, marking them as Parthian nobles. The leather bridles and harness trappings would be red or light brown colour and the bit of iron or bronze. Large saddle cloths were brightly coloured red or crimson, heavily embroidered with geometric designs or animal motifs.

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Nizag Gund

These poorly trained, levy infantry are supplied by the great nobles (azads) from their estates in the more settled regions of the Persian Empire. They are armed with an infantry spear and brown, leather-covered, wicker shield, a smaller version of the old spara (gerron) of imperial days, and a short sword or axe. Their primary order of battle would consist of spearmen fighting in ordered ranks. Groups of spearmen such as these are trained to form rows across and files deep and to march in step. Grouping together bolsters morale and the shield wall helps to neutralize arrows. However, the oft-repeated myth of 'roped or chained' Persian troops is an invention of literature. The Arabic term 'silsilah' is very likely a poetic device meant to imply soldiers organized into close order units. The same term is used to refer to both Sassanid Persian and Byzantine cavalry, neither of which could have conceivably been physically tied together in groups!

Historically, the Parthian Nobility displayed the same distrust of armed peasantry as many other feudal elites, The Nizag Gund were as close as they came to putting that uncomfortable idea into practice, but these foot troops were generally drawn from the poorer classes of Parthian society and were often badly equipped and barely trained. When the indifferent quality of these troops was added to the pace of Parthian warfare, it meant that the Nizag Gund would rarely be committed to heavy action. Their duties would generally include garrison and baggage guard, but they could also form a spear wall in pitched battles.

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Pahlava Shivatir

These cavalrymen are recruited from the clan warriors of Parthia, and originally come from the steppes of Central Asia. Although they now live in Iran, they still learn to ride as soon as they can walk like their ancestors. They are expert archers and expert horsemen, being able to shoot a bow accurately from horseback, and they are the masters of the ‘Parthian shot’, being able to shoot backwards at full gallop. They are best used at weakening enemy formations so that the heavy cavalry can finish them off. Almost impossible to destroy and unwilling to come to grips with well ordered infantry these horsemen use marauder tactics to bring down their enemies. Dense formations of infantry are their favoured target.

Historically, horse archers formed the backbone of all Parthian armies. Led by the Dehbed minor nobility into battle, these Bandaka (bondsmen or retainers) rely on missile fire as their primary asset. They used probably the best weapon for the light horseman, which was the composite horse bow. It was similar to the simple self bow but used multiple layers of wood, horn and sinew to produce a stronger bow with a greater draw weight—the force built up in the string that will propel the arrow forward to its target— for a small size.


And many more who would find their way into the employ of the Pahlavan kings.

Daha Tazig
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Saka Aspam
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Daha Asabara
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Harauvatish Asabara
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MITHRA

The history of Mithras stretches back 4000 years and was once a rival to the faith of the Christians. Christianity had one great advantage, it preached the forgiveness of sinners. And it was a great sinner himself, Emperor Constantine that decreed that Christianity was to be the state religion for Rome. The rest is history.

In Persia itself Mithra was the protector God of the Iranian nomads and held a major place of honour until the dualistic reforms of Zarathustra. Ahura-Mazda, god of the skies, and Ahriman, or Angra Mainyu, god of darkness formed the two halves of this dualism. The reforms of the prophet Zarathustra left Mithras with the role of 'Judger of Souls', God of Truth, and the Lord of Heavenly Light. His role was to conduct the souls of the Ashavan, the good and righteous to paradise. As a protector god he shielded the followers of Asha, truth and punishes the followers of the lie. In this connection he is associated with warriors and was adopted by the Romans as Sol Invictus, a god of soldiers, he was to the Persians however mostly a god of contracts. Indeed his very name is the Avestan word for pact, contract, or covenant. The handshake arose out of the beliefs of those who worshipped him as a token of friendship and a gesture to show that they were unarmed. This same handshake found its way west with the Roman soldiers who worshipped Mithras and soon spread throughout the Mediterranean and Europe.

Mithras became the divine representative of Ahura-Mazda on earth, and was directed by Ahura-Mazda to protect the righteous from the demonic forces of Angra Mainyu. His followers promoted an ethic of brotherhood in order to unify the forces of good to fight evil wherever it might be found. He carries a spear of pure silver, wears a golden cuirass, and is armed with golden shafted arrows, and his mace is the symbol of his unrelenting war against evil.

Mithras was born of Anahita, an immaculate virgin mother worshipped throughout the Iranian lands. As a fertility goddess Anahita was said to have conceived the Saviour from the seed of Zarathustra preserved in the waters of Lake Hamun in the Persian province of Sistan. Mithras remained celibate throughout his life, and valued self-control, renunciation and resistance to sensuality among his worshippers. The Persian crown, from which all present day crowns are derived, was designed to represent the golden sun-disc sacred to Mithras.

There were seven degrees of initiation representing the seven celestial bodies.

The Raven was the first, the symbol of death, the Roman corax under Mercury. In ancient Persia it was a custom to expose dead bodies on the Dakhmas, or Towers of Silence to be eaten by ravens and vultures. These vulture towers follow an ancient practice of the Magi and to this day remain a part of Parsis life in parts of India and Pakistan. Angra Mainyu, the god of darkness by his free will chose to do evil and in this way allowed death to enter the world. The earth as part of Ahura-Mazda is seen as good and to bury the dead who are the work of Angra Mainyu in the good earth would be a defilement. The initiate would be baptized and be reborn into the spiritual path of Mithras.

The Mithrakana was the prime festival of Mithra, and celebrated on the autumn equinox. Only the legitimate rulers of the Iranians were privileged to possess the Kavaya Hvarenah, or Divine Glory of Mithra, which would abandon a king if he strayed from the path of righteousness. It was for this reason that many of the Hellenic rulers were never seen as true rulers of the Iranian people.

Remains of Mithraic temples can be found throughout the Roman Empire, from Palestine across north of Africa, and across central Europe to northern England. The largest of these Mithtraeum's was built in western Persia at Kangavar, dedicated to 'Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras'. Other Mithraic temples were built in Northern and in Central Iran the temple of Khorheh lies in ruins near present-day Mahallat. Mithraic mausoleums and shrines have been found at Nisa, Dura Europos and Hatra as well.

ANAHITA

Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras

Ardvi Sura Anahita the guardian of the Zaothra, undefiled waters, and is the source of all waters upon the earth. She was seen by the Iranians as clean, untainted, innocent, and pure. She was the Golden Mother of Mithras, the Warrior Maiden, and as guardian of the waters, she was the goddess of plants, fertility, and green things. She was the guardian protectress, the gentle goddess she is associated with rivers and all flowing things, from whence comes all fertility.

As the Warrior Maiden and protectress, soldiers would pray to her for mercy and courage before battle. She is sometimes depicted as driving a chariot drawn by four white horses, representing Wind, Rain, Clouds, and Hail, and the Barsom, or sacred bundle of twigs, and white heifers are offered in her honour as guardian of pure waters. As the Golden Mother, Anahita is portrayed as a virgin, young and beautiful, wearing a golden kerchief, gold-sandals, gold earrings, and a jeweled diadem, and wrapped in a golden embroidered cloak adorned with thirty otter skins. The dove and the peacock were sacred to her.

Anahita, was widely worshiped in Achaemenid Persia and many cities held shrines, statues, and temples of her. Her faith spread, and Anahita was also widely worshiped in various parts of Armenia, Asia Minor and the West. The temple of Anahita at Ecbatana was a sprawling palace, according to classic historians, built of cedar or cypress covered by plates of silver and gold. Every tile of the floors was made of silver, and the whole building was apparently faced with bricks of silver and gold.

VERETHRAGNA

The Persian god of victory and the personification of aggressive triumph.

Verethragna bears the ‘divine glory’ of Ahura Mazda and it is beneath his wings and the solar disc of Mithra that the shâhân shâh, 'king of kings', would find shelter. Thus did Verethragna come, bearing the Kavaya Hvarenah, "divine Glory", the divine light of Ahura Mazda that would light the way for the ancient kings of Iran. Without it they were lesser in the eyes of their people. To the Parthians this was Xwarrah, "Royal Glory" for they too held Verethragna in great honour and saw him as giving the Divine Sanction of Kingship. He is the warrior with a golden blade.

The falcon is associated with the fortune of the king and is known as the bird of the warrior Verethragna. This Royal Falcon bore the crown, or Diadem to all Iranian kings, becoming the bestower of fortune. Verethragna was the slayer of the terrible dragon Verethra. His name, Verethragna, literally means 'defeater of the enemy'. The raven too, a symbol of death, was sacred to Verethragna, as it was to Mithra.

He is the God of Atash Verethragna, the most sacred of all fires. It is a combination of all the lesser fires. In modern Persian this is the Behram fire.

These fires as described in the Avesta are Adar Shaidan, Adar Khoreh, Adar Mino Karko, Adar Farnbag, Adar Farah, Adar Gushpasp, Adar Khorda, Adar Burzen Meher, Atash Dara, Atash Berezo-Savangh, Atash Vohu Fryana, Atash Urvazishta, Atash Vazishta, Atash Spenishta, Atash Nairoghanga, and the king’s personal fire of worship, Atash Verethragna. It is to Verethragna that the greatest fire temples are dedicated.

AHURA MAZDA

Ahura-Mazda is the Wise Lord. The place of Ahura-Mazda is that of supreme god of all goodness, whereas the god Ahriman is the ultimate embodiment of evil. Ahura Mazda created the universe and maintains the cosmic order of truth (asha) and light against the forces of darkness and deception (the LIE)led by Ahriman (Angra Mainyu). He has chosen good and in so doing has achieved completeness and immortality; a state of radiant happiness (Ushta) through illumination and enlightenment. Ahura Mazda is opposed to all evil and suffering.

The origin of evil is traced in Zoroaster's system to an exercise of free will at the beginning of creation, when the twin sons of Ahura Mazda entered into an eternal rivalry. One, Spenta Mainyu (Bounteous Spirit), chose good, thus acquiring the attributes of truth, justice, and life. The other, Angra Mainyu (Destructive Spirit), chose evil and its attendant forces of destruction, injustice, and death. The world is thus divided between the dominion of the good and that of evil. To the Iranian the lie is the same as evil, and truth is the same as good. Man is ultimately responsible for his own fate. Ahura Mazda is not Omniscient because although He is aware of all that is happening, he does not know all that shall be. He has given man free will and this means he cannot know what man will choose. It is for mans own conscience and Mithra to judge. Our choices are truly our own, and the only thing that God has determined is the final judgement.

Ahura Mazda is surrounded by six beings which the Avesta calls amesha spentas, "beneficent immortals." These are Spenta Mainyu (Holy Spirit), of Asha Vahishta (Justice, Truth), of Vohu Manah (Righteous Thinking), Khshathra Vairya (Desirable Dominion), Haurvatat (Wholeness), and Ameretat (Immortality), and Spenta Armaiti, (Devotion).

The world of his followers (the ashavan) come closer to Ahura Mazda through fire which is the physical perception of Ahura Mazda. A Zoroastrian achieves spiritual completeness through free will and his own choices. Choosing to do good, and to avoid doing wrong, this is the path to salvation. It is his duty to fight evil through good thoughts, good words and good deeds.


https://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9421/dividerparthia18yq.gif
In another special glimpse of some of the new things we have in store for you, the Pahlava have certain goals they will try to obtain in the course of the game, one of the chief of which is the imperative to retake the lands the invading Yonaw had seized from their ancestors. If you accomplish this, there will, of course, be great rewards:
https://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7716/shahanshahevent4yo.th.jpg (https://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shahanshahevent4yo.jpg)

And we have a couple of buildings that were very important to the Pahlava to show you in this preview:
http://img175.exs.cx/img175/538/pasargadaiscreen13jq.th.jpg (http://img175.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img175&image=pasargadaiscreen13jq.jpg)
http://img10.exs.cx/img10/8296/parsascreen12kd.th.jpg (http://img10.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img10&image=parsascreen12kd.jpg)

https://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9421/dividerparthia18yq.gif

Plus, the campaign map with factions released so far:
https://img323.imageshack.us/img323/1969/mapfactionsreleasedsofar0rb.th.jpg (https://img323.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mapfactionsreleasedsofar0rb.jpg)


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And of course, a little bonus for the horse lover in you:
https://img49.imageshack.us/img49/3986/logoparthia1small9ul.jpg


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We hope you’ve enjoyed this week’s update!

Please note that unless stated otherwise, ALL pictures shown in our previews are of works in progress. We continue to improve on all parts of EB, and we will continue to do so long after our initial release.

Since some areas where these news items are posted cannot handle wide images, we appreciate your restraint from quoting full-size images.

As always, if you have questions or comments, the best place to post them is here, where the EB team is most active:

Europa Barbarorum ORG forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70)

Europa Barbarorum TWC forum (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31)

We give special thanks to Imageshack (http://www.imageshack.us) that provides us with a simple, foolproof, and free way to show you all these pictures each week.


Have a great day!


Sincerely,

The Europa Barbarorum team.

Han
08-21-2005, 03:40
that was mad fast! O.O

kayapó
08-21-2005, 03:48
Yes!

So, I see you're now going to stick to this one preview a day schedule.

Very nice...

Congrats ~:cheers:

I loved the archers ~D


kayapó

ps. Why are the "Azad Asavaran" holding their kontos over the shoulders?

ps2. Are you guy going to include the translation of the units names in their description? That would be a nice "teaching" touch. :book: Also including the right way to say each name would be nice (specially for those germanic names). ~;)

ps3. Does anyone else want to play this faction first? My favorite so far.

Reverend Joe
08-21-2005, 04:01
~:eek: God damn, Khelvan- did you get any sleep last week? Two previews in three days is pretty impressive.

Anyway, the preview looks great, as always. I just have a quick question to whomever has been keeping track of all the material here: what factions are left? I was just trying to remember if Armenia was going to be in, or if it was replaced.

BobTheTerrible
08-21-2005, 04:08
Excellent preview, as always.

Just one question- would any fans be willing to band together and make a simple mod for EB (after it's released of course) that roughly translates unit names etc into English, for those of us chaps not fluent in ancient Parthian (Pahlavan?) or indeed, any ancient faction ingame? Call me a simple minded freak, but I'd rather mouseover a unit to recruit and see Noble Archers rather than *warning: Over-dramatation ahead, used for humorous purposes only* Alflahivetha Obsoctomonix Dectrathapaos. It's just so much simpler when deciding what unit to recruit or finding out what exactly the unit would be good for in the battlefields. I know you can mostly tell by looks, but when you can just see Levy Infantry and Trained Milita (bad examples) rather than squinting at Arheflegia Dentramentoi and Frenheimhad Trachtemectia... well it's easier on the mind. Hehe.

Note: Tha above was not intended to flame EB at all.

Mr Jones
08-21-2005, 04:10
well done. i hav run out of things to say for y'all work. fantastic.

EDIT:by the way khelvan, wat is the deal with your sig? occultus? wat is this? i hav never heard of anything along these lines for EB. i am assuming it is a feature of EB, or a faction or watever.

khelvan
08-21-2005, 04:23
ps. Why are the "Azad Asavaran" holding their kontos over the shoulders?That is one of the idle animations we made for the xyston.


by the way khelvan, wat is the deal with your sig? occultus? wat is this?It's a secret.

*giggle*

Southern Hunter
08-21-2005, 04:51
Very nice. The range of cavalry and other troops available make it look jolly interesting.

Hunter

shifty157
08-21-2005, 05:04
Very nice. Although it seems as if you have several different kinds of horse archers. Maybe im missing something because i dont know their stats but that seems a bit redundant to me.

Awesome preview though. Very informative.

khelvan
08-21-2005, 05:10
Very nice. Although it seems as if you have several different kinds of horse archers. Maybe im missing something because i dont know their stats but that seems a bit redundant to me.Yeah, I know. It kinda sucks. I mean it's like having to create several types of foot spear units for those pesky Greeks, or infantry sword units for those silly Celts. ~;)

Eaglefirst
08-21-2005, 05:24
Well you did it... I can read the other previews and oooh and ahhh but once I saw those Horse Archers and Cataphratcs... I cried in the fetal position in a corner for 4 hours thinking of having to wait to use them... The thought of waiting it's so painf... I think I'm going to cry again... :sick: Good Job :beam:

King of Atlantis
08-21-2005, 05:31
WOW, great preview!

GMT
08-21-2005, 05:41
:jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:

Awesome preview! Can"t wait to use these Cataphracts! :charge: :charge:

Dux Corvanus
08-21-2005, 10:06
Yeah, I know. It kinda sucks. I mean it's like having to create several types of foot spear units for those pesky Greeks, or infantry sword units for those silly Celts. ~;)

Yeah, why would the US want the Rangers if they have the Marines yet, and all carry M16 guns? ~D

Kääpäkorven Konsuli
08-21-2005, 10:09
You didn't remove pyjamas!
~;)

jerby
08-21-2005, 11:04
thank goodness there're still some pyjamas!
awesome previeuw. units, triumphs, buildings, and Regional units. great!

btw, how did you solve the fact parthians became liberate 20 years after vanilla's start?
alliance with seleucids? move starting date?

Moros
08-21-2005, 11:45
this is just awesome!
amazing...
wondefull...
...,....
words can't say enough.

Now finish the beta!!! :whip: ~;)

Geoffrey S
08-21-2005, 12:12
Very nice (again). For variety's sake, can't you guys just do a preview that sucks? Just once?

It's a secret.
A real secret, or just the word itself?

jerby
08-21-2005, 12:23
Very nice (again). For variety's sake, can't you guys just do a preview that sucks? Just once?

trust me..Rome will suck ~;) i already saw 5 units :charge: from Prometheus his mon in "the forge" looks good, but the surprise is gone ~:eek:

khelvan
08-21-2005, 13:25
Very nice (again). For variety's sake, can't you guys just do a preview that sucks? Just once?No.


A real secret, or just the word itself?Yes.

Chester
08-21-2005, 15:08
Persians, Sarmatians etc.. are a bunch of ninnies with their horse archer based army. I'll take raw infantry (romans, barbs) any day of the week!

Didn't the Parthians use chariots? Or was that the Pontus empire?

jerby
08-21-2005, 15:18
pontic i thought..

Steppe Merc
08-21-2005, 16:08
Very nice. Although it seems as if you have several different kinds of horse archers. Maybe im missing something because i dont know their stats but that seems a bit redundant to me.

Awesome preview though. Very informative.
Not at all. Many Iranian people were horse archers. And some used spears as secondary weapons (Dahae), others swords or axes I believe. Some were richer, thus could afford (slightly) better armor.
In addition, one of the bow armed units you see (Dehbed Asavara), is more or less a cataphract, who has a kontus.


btw, how did you solve the fact parthians became liberate 20 years after vanilla's start?
alliance with seleucids? move starting date?
They start out as the nomadic Parni who did not yet live in the Parthian province.


Persians, Sarmatians etc.. are a bunch of ninnies with their horse archer based army. I'll take raw infantry (romans, barbs) any day of the week!
Hah! Don't make me laugh. Infantry wouldn't get a chance to even wound any proper army before they are dead.


Didn't the Parthians use chariots? Or was that the Pontus empire?
No chariots.


You didn't remove pyjamas!
~;)
Well, that was really how some people dressed. But it was never purple or torquoise.


ps3. Does anyone else want to play this faction first? My favorite so far.
I do! ~;)

wolftrapper78
08-21-2005, 16:09
Great preview!

I was wondering if the Pahlava will have the same culture as the cities of Seleucid controlled persia. I thought it was very unrealistic to capture persian cities that were completely Hellenized. But then how will the Seleucids be able to hold their empire together with it being so vast and still have the culture penalty?

caesar44
08-21-2005, 16:31
Looking good as usual .
Loved the idea of not deleting the Parthians and presents them as they "were" before .
About the "Pahlava" , Phahlawi is the name of the last persian-Iranian dynasty , so what is the origin of the name ?

tsyed
08-21-2005, 16:31
This is the best faction preview yet! Those horse archers and cataphracts look very nice, and their art looks completely redone too.

BTW, what's the difference between the Zradha and the Azad cataphracts? Is one more 'elite', or are they just different units?

Steppe Merc
08-21-2005, 16:50
Caesar, I believe it means Champion. It is the what the Parthians called themselves.


I was wondering if the Pahlava will have the same culture as the cities of Seleucid controlled persia. I thought it was very unrealistic to capture persian cities that were completely Hellenized. But then how will the Seleucids be able to hold their empire together with it being so vast and still have the culture penalty?
Well, they are not the same culture as the Hellenics. However, Parthia did adopt a good deal of Hellenic culture, and many Greeks were far more comfortable with them than the Persians were of their fellow Iranians.


BTW, what's the difference between the Zradha and the Azad cataphracts? Is one more 'elite', or are they just different units?
There were many variations of the cataphract type. Each noble provided their own equipment, which pretty much meant that no two cataphracts were the same. However, as we can't do that, we have multiple types of cataphracts. The Azad I believe are the second highest cataphract. They would be more expensive and be of better quality of the Zradha.

tsyed
08-21-2005, 17:08
Pahalwan mean champion or wrestler in modern Urdu (and I would guess Persian too).

Divinus Arma
08-21-2005, 17:55
:cheers:

sharrukin
08-21-2005, 18:12
Great preview!

I was wondering if the Pahlava will have the same culture as the cities of Seleucid controlled persia. I thought it was very unrealistic to capture persian cities that were completely Hellenized. But then how will the Seleucids be able to hold their empire together with it being so vast and still have the culture penalty?

They will have a difficult time of it, which is what in fact happened historically.


Looking good as usual .
Loved the idea of not deleting the Parthians and presents them as they "were" before .
About the "Pahlava" , Phahlawi is the name of the last persian-Iranian dynasty , so what is the origin of the name ?

*phlw'nyg or Pahlawanig (Pahlavanig) means Parthian in Middle Persian. The name through association with the Parthians came to mean hero, warrior, champion, and variants of this. For example Pahlawan means "hero" in Kurdish which is related to Median and Parthian as part of the Northwestern branch of West Iranian. Persian itself is of the Southwestern branch of West Iranian.

jerby
08-21-2005, 19:25
so what is this Iranian longsword? bronze? iron? screenie?

sharrukin
08-21-2005, 19:50
so what is this Iranian longsword? bronze? iron? screenie?

It would be of iron, similar in many ways to the Scytho-Sarmatian longsword.

Little Legioner
08-21-2005, 20:02
You guys proud of all TW community! :bow:

Parthians were Rohan Kingdom of ancient times! Excellent reflection of true characteristics.

and you Khelvan go and get some sleep. We need you alive mate ~:cheers:

Spendios
08-21-2005, 20:20
Fantastic preview with an extroardinary variety of horse archers and as always very interesting informations about Parthian culture and religion, can't wait to play with them !

Birka Viking
08-21-2005, 20:27
Wow great preview EB... ~:cheers:

GoreBag
08-21-2005, 20:59
Wow, I wasn't expecting another preview. Things are getting pretty close to release, I'm sure.

Copperhaired Berserker!
08-21-2005, 21:19
oh dear, I'm gonna do a story for EB, you know, like Maltz's story, except for EB. Man, it will be hard to choose what faction to start with. Or maybe, I could do all factions in one story! Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssss! What a idea!

vizigothe
08-21-2005, 21:35
sleep is overrated

good preview, wasnt expectign this when i logged in today

O_Stratigos
08-22-2005, 03:32
Nice preview, ought to keep all horse lovers out there very happy!!
A question; one of the HA units its shown holding the bow across indicating that it's used the "normal" way, arrow on the left side. IIRC Parthians were using a "thumb ring", placing the arrow on the right side of the bow, is this correct or is it because it’s still WIP?

O_Stratigos :bow:

Turin
08-22-2005, 19:52
Um... did anyone else notice that the first cavalry unit in the list had BLONDE beards? Who are they? Galatians? LOL JK, simple mistake, I'm sure they'll fix it.

Anyways, the thing that made me crazy in the good way was the two handed lance animation. I assume this breathrough will be applied to all those Successor cavalries as well right? I mean, something this amazing cannot be left unused!

Oh well, even if the animation is not implemented, I'll still be able to put it on myself.

Steppe Merc
08-22-2005, 19:53
Um, Iranians were often blonde. They were "white", and though many were brown or black haired, blondes were certainlty more common in some tribes than other colorings.

Zero1
08-22-2005, 23:12
Werent the Indo-Iranians a Germanic subgroup?, or am I mistaken?

Because I remember hearing something to that effect somewhere

sharrukin
08-23-2005, 01:48
Werent the Indo-Iranians a Germanic subgroup?, or am I mistaken?

Because I remember hearing something to that effect somewhere

In older texts they are sometimes referred to as Indo-Germanic while in modern usage we use Indo-European.

Many of the North Iranian groups had lighter hair.

RandyKapp
08-23-2005, 05:22
Very pretty, even if i hate mounted archers with a burning passion of burneyness.

Steppe Merc
08-23-2005, 17:35
Why don't you like horse archers?

jerby
08-23-2005, 18:05
Why don't you like horse archers?
when i started rtw. no historical knowledge whatsoever. start seleucids as second campaign. and get a 10-stack-levy pikemen army Olibterated by HA's running along the red lines...
horribly boring, horribly humiliating...
i ,personally, dont use them that much as well. but they pose an interesting threat.

Steppe Merc
08-23-2005, 19:54
To fight horse archers, you need to fight as their enemies truly did. You need enough of your own cavalry to chase them off as well as skirmishers. You can't expect to defeat horse archers with infantry, it won't happen, just as it didn't happen in real life.

Urnamma
08-24-2005, 01:17
You can also use long ranged artillery, like ballistae. It can chase them off. Alexander used it to good effect against the Sakae.

GoreBag
08-24-2005, 08:11
You'd think foot archers would do just fine.

Angadil
08-24-2005, 09:22
They do, generally. However, the example Urnamma mentioned was a bit special, as it involved a river crossing. The ballistae forced the Sakae away from the opposite bank and the Makedonians could cross without being harassed. That whole battle, btw, is a very good example of how a horse archer army could be beaten historically. Most of that will work in EB too.

jerby
08-24-2005, 17:55
yeah...i read about that a bit..
the cav was in Wedge formation, the first party got hit (bad) but mamanged to cirle around a section of sakae's, and another party sandwiched them..but it was a textual source and thus hard to interprate.Plus, it was Valerio Massimmo, and thus not the most acurate one..

Angadil
08-24-2005, 22:52
Interested in that episode? (IIRC, it's been claimed to be the first recorded use of field artillery) There's a valuable analysis of Arrian's account (the main source for it) in this webpage (http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/Arrian4-4-6-7.html). You should definitely end up with a reasonably clear idea of, at the very least, the competing theories about what actually happened.

Turin
08-25-2005, 05:11
Humm... excuse the latent anthropologist in me... but...

Does this mean that the Sarmatians and Scythians too were light haired? How different were they from their brethern in the German forests?

sharrukin
08-25-2005, 05:20
Humm... excuse the latent anthropologist in me... but...

Does this mean that the Sarmatians and Scythians too were light haired? How different were they from their brethern in the German forests?

Actually the Germans were not as light haired as we are accustomed to imagine, and light hair tends to increase in northern Germany, Poland and some parts of Russia. So the Cimmerians, Scythians, and Sarmatians were probably (guesswork) blonder than the present day Germans, just as the poles are. We do not actually know exactly how many were blonde but a considerable portion were.

Zero1
08-25-2005, 09:00
Sooooo, what your saying is that lighter hair is in fact more of a Slavic/Indo-Iranian trait then a Germanic one?

Forgive my question-asking but I am legitamitely curious

Chester
08-25-2005, 09:04
The steppe HA's could fire up to 10 arrows per minute whilst moving. I'm not sure what the rate is in RTW, but that is insane!

I saw some video about a russian man who's devoted a large part of his life to perfecting the HA combat style by which the hun's used.

This guy is amazing. He emulates the huns perfectly. He keeps all the arrows clinched in the same fist that holds the bow. He simply fires the arrow and as his hand reaches back for the string, he's already got another arrow waiting there. He shuffles them into position with the hand that holds the arrows and bow. It fired much like an archaic automatic gun. He did this while moving at a good speed on the horse, hitting the target with high accuracy.

Now that I think about it, he rarely used his reigns, he could steer the horse by shifting his arms in the air quickly and using his hips.

Spongly
08-25-2005, 11:29
Actually the Germans were not as light haired as we are accustomed to imagine, and light hair tends to increase in northern Germany, Poland and some parts of Russia. So the Cimmerians, Scythians, and Sarmatians were probably (guesswork) blonder than the present day Germans, just as the poles are. We do not actually know exactly how many were blonde but a considerable portion were.

Tacitus indeed says that the Germans are known for their red hair, rather than blonde, which the Romans considered more a feature of the Celts and various other people.

Steppe Merc
08-25-2005, 16:47
Sooooo, what your saying is that lighter hair is in fact more of a Slavic/Indo-Iranian trait then a Germanic one?

Forgive my question-asking but I am legitamitely curious
I don't think Slavic, but I'm not sure. But it would explain my Mom's Polish and blonde, and why all of my brothers are half Polish, and quite blonde...
But there were many Iranian peoples. Some Scythian mummified royals looked like they would have fit right in in Sweden. Some Iranian peoples were darker than others (Persians), but there were a good amount of blondes.
Actually, you know the whole Aryan race crap that Hitler invented? Aryan is (possibely) what the Iranians called Iran, and (possibely) themselves. There is more proof than just Hitler's "proof", but I think it's incunclusive.

Chester
08-25-2005, 17:44
Question- Are huns and sarmatians white or asian?

Moros
08-25-2005, 18:03
sarmatians are white I believe, huns are asian, right?

Marinakis
08-25-2005, 18:04
Question- Are huns and sarmatians white or asian?
the huns come from north of china, they are decendents of the mongols, i think.

Moros
08-25-2005, 18:06
they come from north of china, they are decendents of the mongols, i think.
mongols came after the huns ~D, about 900 years later!

Marinakis
08-25-2005, 18:09
mongols came after the huns ~D, about 900 years later!
well i hear that the great wall of china was built partly to keep both the huns and mongols out of china, so they atleast lived near eachother

GoreBag
08-25-2005, 18:45
Actually, you know the whole Aryan race crap that Hitler invented? Aryan is (possibely) what the Iranians called Iran, and (possibely) themselves. There is more proof than just Hitler's "proof", but I think it's incunclusive.

He didn't make it up, he just got it wrong. Germans aren't Aryans.

The comparison between Persians and other Iranians reminds me of comparing one Celtic tribe to another. The Cymru were darker in complexion and hair than the Goidils, for example.

Turin
08-25-2005, 18:59
Okay so let me get this straight.

In 280 or so BC, the Northern Iranians and the Sarmatian tribes west of the Urals were "white" in the sense that they looked somewhat like the modern Swede, or what not.

Then comes the migrations westward of Asiatic peoples from east of the Urals, culminating in the arrival of the Huns in the Western Roman Empire. So in the end the whitish peoples of Eastern Europe and the Caucauses were replaced or intermarried into Asiatic peoples with darker hair and complexions?

Moros
08-25-2005, 19:10
Okay so let me get this straight.

In 280 or so BC, the Northern Iranians and the Sarmatian tribes west of the Urals were "white" in the sense that they looked somewhat like the modern Swede, or what not.

well I think with whot they mean is more like the avarage European.

SpawnOfEbil
08-25-2005, 20:07
Countdown to Open Beta - Pahlava

I don't want this pahlava! ~D

*pun on pahlava, in case you missed it*

EDIT: They look very very nice. Should definately be an improvement over Vanilla, with more flexible infantry battalions (EI are, for want of a better word, crap).

Ranika
08-25-2005, 20:12
He didn't make it up, he just got it wrong. Germans aren't Aryans.

The comparison between Persians and other Iranians reminds me of comparing one Celtic tribe to another. The Cymru were darker in complexion and hair than the Goidils, for example.

Good qoute, but I think a bit poor wording; Cymru weren't a tribe, they were a subculture (as were Goidils). However, they did have different genetic roots that gave cause that Goidils were generally fair-skinned and fairer-haired (brown hair and red hair {even before the vikings, there are graves of red-haired Goidils, likely descended from Belgae, who had red hair sometimes}, compared to the more common black hair of Cambrians and later Cymrians, though Goidils had black hair too sometimes; however, this is speaking in general).

Of Aryans, Hitler's assertations were just wrong, as NeonGod said; the Aryan race exists, but they aren't 'Germans'; his definition of Aryans would have lent itself more to Gauls (and southern 'Gallic' Britons, Tylisians and Galatians that stemmed from them) than it would Germanic tribes.

GoreBag
08-25-2005, 20:18
I would dispute the use of the term of 'subculture' in this case, but I digress.

Steppe Merc
08-25-2005, 21:31
sarmatians are white I believe, huns are asian, right?
Well it's a bit difficult, since there were "white" Iranians living in Asia to just say "white" or "asian". But we are not entirely sure what the Huns are. Probably related to the Turks more so than the Iranians. So they were possibly more Asiatic. It is difficult to say, however, since the Romans discriptions really helpful, and I don't think too many burials have been found (unlike say the Iranians and the Turks).


Okay so let me get this straight.

In 280 or so BC, the Northern Iranians and the Sarmatian tribes west of the Urals were "white" in the sense that they looked somewhat like the modern Swede, or what not.

Then comes the migrations westward of Asiatic peoples from east of the Urals, culminating in the arrival of the Huns in the Western Roman Empire. So in the end the whitish peoples of Eastern Europe and the Caucauses were replaced or intermarried into Asiatic peoples with darker hair and complexions?
More or less. Only some Iranian peoples were blonde, some were darker. And then the Huns, Turks, Arabs, and finally Mongols came, and interbred with the Iranians. Some remained pretty independant, like the Alans after the Huns fell. But as a whole other peoples assimilated them (nomadic peoples tended to just join up with a stronger tribe), yeah.
And before the migrations, the Iranians weren't mixed with Asiatic peoples.


He didn't make it up, he just got it wrong. Germans aren't Aryans.

The comparison between Persians and other Iranians reminds me of comparing one Celtic tribe to another. The Cymru were darker in complexion and hair than the Goidils, for example.
Thanks Neon God and Ranika for clearing up the Aryan issue, I wasn't entirelly sure about the whole thing.

Chester
08-25-2005, 22:08
So modern day Iranians are decendents from white boys mixed with arabs? I'm I getting this right? They are very light in skin color. My proffesor looks like an italian or even a jew, but he's Iranian.

I really appreciate the knowledge people here pass around. This is by far one of the best forums, for games, that I've attended.

Steppe Merc
08-25-2005, 22:12
I'm not sure about current day Iranian. But I think the Arabs had difficulty in conquering many regions, so in Iran itself there are probably a good amount of people with more Iranian blood than not, which explains you're proffesor's complexion.

Big_John
08-25-2005, 22:25
didn't turkic peoples overrun that area after the arabs? maybe they didn't really populate it though..

Moros
08-25-2005, 22:30
didn't turkic peoples overrun that area after the arabs? maybe they didn't really populate it though..
I don't know about that but a turc ran over my cousin once ~;)

Angadil
08-25-2005, 22:42
If you are speaking of peoples like the Seljuks, etc.. That would be a sort of second (or even third or fourth wave) turkic wave. They were already converted to Islam. Before them, there had been previous westwards movements of a diversity of pre-Islamic turkic peoples that the Caliphate fought as it expanded towards Central Asia.

Steppe Merc
08-25-2005, 22:47
didn't turkic peoples overrun that area after the arabs? maybe they didn't really populate it though..
Well there was the Gok "Blue" Turks, that then divided into the Eastern and Western Turkish Khagans who were at war often with the Sassanians, and some probably mixed with Iranian peoples in that area. Then the Arab invasions happened, and the Turks broke up into a whole bunch of tribes. Many converted to Islam, though some resisted. In fact, Persians (Iranians), Turks and Arabs were the three main Islamic people. They all sort of helped form what Islam was about, militarily and culturally.

And I think that there is Turkish blood in many modern peoples, from Asia Minor to Asia and the Middle East. Again, I don't know much about the people in that area after the Middle Ages. ~;)
And a main part of that is that I'm not sure how much each nation makes up of ancient Iran, so I'm not sure which of today's nations that Turks invaded, etc.

edit: And Angadil's right, many spread out, and then came back in, though some stayed in the area I think.

TheTank
08-27-2005, 01:47
Great update EB,

Lots of units to watch + interesting information but i prefer the Sauromatae..


Spongly

Tacitus indeed says that the Germans are known for their red hair, rather than blonde, which the Romans considered more a feature of the Celts and various other people.

Some germanic tribes painted their hair red but where not naturarlly so.
Gauls and Britons (don't know about the Geals) often bleeched their hair with lime or some other substance maybe this is the reason that Romans imagined that gauls where all fairhaired...

Ranika,


Of Aryans, Hitler's assertations were just wrong, as NeonGod said; the Aryan race exists, but they aren't 'Germans'; his definition of Aryans would have lent itself more to Gauls (and southern 'Gallic' Britons, Tylisians and Galatians that stemmed from them) than it would Germanic tribes.

Please explain ranika,
Where the aryans a group of people that invaded India and Iran a very long time ago?!
I don't think about the Celts if I hear the word aryans...

Steppe Merc
08-27-2005, 02:14
Tank the Aryans themselves were Iranians (Scythians, Sakaes, Sarmatians, Persians, Parthians, etc.). It's two words for the same thing.
However, they probably had relatives amongst the Celtic people.

Zero1
08-27-2005, 17:10
I was under the impression that the Indo-Iranians were closer in relation to the Germanic peoples then the Celts, was I mistaken?

Aenlic
08-27-2005, 17:56
It depends upon which migration model is followed, and where and when one places the Urheimat for the Indo-European language.

If the Kurgan hypothesis is followed than the Urheimat is placed on the northern shore of the Black Sea with the Yamna culture. The Iranian and Indo-Aryan come from the Pontic steppes and the Yamna culture then the Adronovo culture and then circle around the north Caspian and back down and around to the south and west. This would make Indo-Aryan and Iranian more closely related to pre-proto-Germanic, since the pre-proto-Celtic peoples like the pre-Unetice culture had already moved farther west, splitting off west from the Yamna culture.

If the much earlier Neolithic revolution, or proto-Hittite, hypothesis is followed then the Urheimat is placed around Lake Urmia, and then spread north to form the Yamna and Maykop kurgan cultures and south, west and east to form proto-Hittite cultures. This allows for the possibility that the pre-proto-Celtic cultures came from a spread west and northwest, while the pre-proto-Germanic spread from the Yamna culture north and then west.

A third possibility is placing the Urheimat for Indo-European even earlier around shores of the pre-deluge Black Sea, particularly on the land that became the Sea of Azov. This would then start major expansion with the 5500 BCE deluge which created the current and much larger sea, spreading and splitting the culture west and northwest to form the pre-proto-Celtics, south and southeast to form the pre-proto-Hittites and Iranian/Indo-Aryan and north and northeast to form the kurgan cultures and the pre-proto-Germanic and later the pre-proto-Baltic.

And don't forget the Tarim mummies from the Tarim basin. Caucasoid mummies in the Xinjiang-Uyghur region from around 2000 BCE. They had fair, often red hair, had clothing which used techniques and wool similar to western European cultures and other things which make them non-Asian. They could possible be proto-Tocharian in origin, which would make them pre-proto-Iranian/Indo-Aryan; but their clothing suggests a more northern descent, more akin to pre-proto-Baltic-Slavic.

Ranika
08-27-2005, 20:02
Some germanic tribes painted their hair red but where not naturarlly so.
Gauls and Britons (don't know about the Geals) often bleeched their hair with lime or some other substance maybe this is the reason that Romans imagined that gauls where all fairhaired...


I'l just focus on this part, since the Celtic part about Aryans seems answered. This is a poor conception; they're Gaels, not Geals, for one (sorry, that's not my point, but I hate that misspelling). Only Cisalpine Gauls bleached their hair, and only southern Britons. Others didn't. Midland Britons had long dark hair, but they weren't called Celts (considering them Celts emerged in the late 1800s; before that, the iron age Britons were just called Britons, except the southerners, who were, and technically are still, considered Gauls/Gallic-Britons). Transalpine Gauls wore their hair long, and many many of them had blonde hair. This wasn't from bleaching at all; many continental Celts were blonde. For example, in Fayuum, Egypt (where many, many Galatian Celts settled as mercenaries for the Ptolemies), the people are still blonde haired, fair-skinned, and blue eyed. Other hair colors existed among Celts (obviously), but there were huge numbers of them with blonde hair and blue eyes; they would fit the description of 'Aryans' quite well, and they were very likely related to groups like the Skythians.

Of Germans with red hair, it's known from the examining of DNA evidence, that many early Germans did have red hair, it wasn't all dyes, though some tribes did dye their hair.

Of Gaels, Gaelic hair colors varied a bit widely because of the mixture of settlers (Galaecians from Iberia, Gauls, Belgae, various Britons) and the natives of the island. Red hair existed, but was made more prominent by vikings (though pre-viking red haired Gaels existed, mainly in the regions where Belgae had settled); fair brown hair seemed most common at the time, probably because all involved groups likely had this hair color to some extent, but also present was black and dark brown hair in the southwest, where Iberians had settled. However, almost all were very fair-skinned.

TheTank
08-27-2005, 20:19
Ranika,

they're Gaels, not Geals, for one (sorry, that's not my point, but I hate that misspelling)

My humble apologies for the error.
It was a typo.... ~D

Perplexed
08-27-2005, 21:19
the huns come from north of china, they are decendents of the mongols, i think.

I think the word "Hun" was just a general term for some of the tribes that came over into Europe and Iran around the 4th and 5th centuries AD. There were "White" Huns (Epthalites), who took over much of Iran, and there were "Black" Huns (Attila's lot), who were the Asiatic Mongoloid people that we generally associate with the word "Hun", and who came into Europe from the Eurasian steppe. Both the White and Black Huns were steppe nomads, but the White Huns were predominantly Indo-European and the Black Huns were Asiatic in appearance. Most historians believe that the Black Huns were the descendants of the Hsiung-nu (I think this is the right name, might be confusing it with some other tribe), who were an Asiatic steppe people living somewhere around Northern China at some time in the early years of that country. I'm not really sure of all this information, as It's been awhile since I've read anything about this particular era of history, but I think the details are mostly correct.

T.P.C.

Steppe Merc
08-27-2005, 22:40
The White Huns were recorded as being fairer than the Black Huns, but the colors have more to do with direction than the apearance of the Huns themselves, I believe.

And the Hsiung-Nu theory is far from proven, and many times seems like a stretch. However, many do believe it, and it hasn't been proven or disproven.

Mr Jones
08-28-2005, 11:38
from wat i hav heard white huns were termed "white" because of their facial features more than their complection. thats not to say that they didn't hav lighter skin than the black huns, but the most notable difference was the facial features, which resembled those of europeans. of course, i could be and probly am wrong.

the_handsome_viking
08-28-2005, 14:39
i especially like the two handed lance =)

i dont think they had that in the original version.

the_handsome_viking
08-28-2005, 15:26
Question- Are huns and sarmatians white or asian?

sarmatians were caucasoid. were they white? who knows, probably.

huns, no ones really sure about what they were, id say they were probably a mix of various racial stocks.

the_handsome_viking
08-28-2005, 16:01
So modern day Iranians are decendents from white boys mixed with arabs? I'm I getting this right? They are very light in skin color. My proffesor looks like an italian or even a jew, but he's Iranian.

I really appreciate the knowledge people here pass around. This is by far one of the best forums, for games, that I've attended.

its an interesting subject really.

arab isnt a race, its a culture and a language, you can have caucasian arabs, negroid arabs and racially mixed arabs , which would appear to be the case for most north african and middle eastern arabs today.

it wouldnt surprise me if youve met arabs that could look italian or like ashkenazi jews, ive met a lot of white arabs myself.

historically speaking arabs would look like this a lot.

http://games.rengeekcentral.com/prblms/F36V.html
http://games.rengeekcentral.com/prblms/F38R.html
http://games.rengeekcentral.com/prblms/F44R.html

and their decendants can be seen today in people like

http://www.syriantopmodels.com/html/models/women/details.php?level=1
http://www.syriantopmodels.com/html/models/women/details.php?level=3
http://www.syriantopmodels.com/html/models/women/details.php?level=8

i think its safe to say that a great deal of mixing has gone on.

http://history.missouristate.edu/jchuchiak/Crusades6.jpg

i hope you find this information helpful.

Keyser
08-28-2005, 23:07
its an interesting subject really.

arab isnt a race, its a culture and a language, you can have caucasian arabs, negroid arabs and racially mixed arabs , which would appear to be the case for most north african and middle eastern arabs today.

it wouldnt surprise me if youve met arabs that could look italian or like ashkenazi jews, ive met a lot of white arabs myself.


There was an original arabic ethnicity, people living in what is now Jordania, Saudi arabia and Yemen are known as "arab" since the highest antiquity, but you're true in saying that most modern arabs are arabs only by language and culture.

By the way this argument is valid for almost any nationality or ethnicity.

Roman of the fourth century weren't "roman" from a genetical point of view.

Turkish tribes weren't all ethnicaly turkish either (like the kirgiz) but as the turks came to be a dominant steppe people, many tribes adopted their languages (and culture, but in the steppe there was one big culture and many differant ethnical groups). Because of that (and of the customs to take women in other tribes) it's difficult to tell what the original turks looked like (although it can be assumed by various sources that they looked asiatic)

I've also read studies who explained that most of the celt of western europe were probably celts only by language and custom too.

It's interesting to try to know how people of ancient times looked like, but it's difficult to tell. By the way considering invaders usualy were dilluted in the original population (because they were far less in numbers) i think most people probably looked like modern people from the same area (with some documented exceptions). Steppe people because they weren't very numerous, weren't settled (and could leave an area en masse) and were probably very mixed are the most difficult to identify.


For example, in Fayuum, Egypt (where many, many Galatian Celts settled as mercenaries for the Ptolemies), the people are still blonde haired, fair-skinned, and blue eyed

Well that can be because of galatian who settled there, but are you sure ?
Did they settle in a number large enough to explain people still are born like that ?
Actually they can be anything else, macedonian and even greek could (can) be blonde haired and blue eyed (and they were settled in the fayum too), they can be circassian or descended from other slaves from the medieval/modern period or a mix of all (the most likely genetically speaking with blonde hairs and blue eyes being recessive genes).

I have seen a documentary on blonde and blue eyed people in central asia who lived in an isolated valley and thought they were the last of the greeks who were settled there by Alexander. It was possible, but the greeks weren't the only ethnic group with blonde hairs and blue eyes who had walked in central asia, far from it.

Edit

Colour in the steppe are meant for a direction, a cardinal point. I don't remember wich colour is for wich direction (there is white, black, blue and gold iirc) but i think that the colours in the name of the huns is meant to explain where they lived relatively to each other rather than some physical differences (who could have existed anyway).
And i think the huns were a turkish people.

Steppe Merc
08-28-2005, 23:14
Keyser, it's more likely they were Scythians or other Iranians if they were blonde and blue eyed.

You are correct, steppe people were very mixed, especially later. Only a very few Mongols were truly of the Mongol tribe. However in the time in question, almost all of the nomads were Iranians without any other sort of mixing. But even at this period, non Iranians start to migrate west.

jurchen fury
09-17-2005, 07:31
Well it's a bit difficult, since there were "white" Iranians living in Asia to just say "white" or "asian". But we are not entirely sure what the Huns are. Probably related to the Turks more so than the Iranians. So they were possibly more Asiatic. It is difficult to say, however, since the Romans discriptions really helpful, and I don't think too many burials have been found (unlike say the Iranians and the Turks).

I think the term "Mongoloid" fits more in here in anthropological terms. "Asian" is just an American convention used to refer to the peoples of East and Southeast Asia, which causes some confusion as "Asia" technically means the territory east of the Urals, so "Asians" would include peoples like the Iranic and Semitic peoples, who are, in racial anthropology, grouped under the same category as "whites", ie "Caucasoids". It must be remembered that the term "Asia" is Eurocentric in itself, meant to designate a supposedly exotic world different from the "enlightened" Christian West. In this case, the Huns in Europe, at least most of the ruling elite, were Mongoloid, judging from skulls unearthed from Hun tombs in Hungary, as Hildinger notes on p. 60 of his Warriors of the Steppe. He further adds on the previous page that the Huns seemed to be Turkic speakers. So the Hunnic ruling elite were, like the Xiongnu, Turkic peoples. Some of the ruling elite, however, were of mixed blood, ie part Caucasoid, judging from some of facial planes of the skulls. What is more important though was that the "Huns" were a political entity rather than an ethnicity since the only "true Huns" were the ruling elite, and by the time of Atilla or his immediate predecessors, the majority of the Hunnic armies were actually infantry, indicating that their ranks included a large number of Caucasoids, ie Goths, Pannonians, etc. And assuming the Hunnic ruling elite were descended from the remnants of the Northern Xiongnu that had been defeated by the Later Han general Dou Xian in 89 CE and migrated to the west, the Huns may have already included in their political entity in the early days a fairly large number of Iranians and other non-Mongoloid Central Asians, etc.

jurchen fury
09-17-2005, 07:38
And the Hsiung-Nu theory is far from proven, and many times seems like a stretch. However, many do believe it, and it hasn't been proven or disproven.

Judging from the skulls of Hun tombs in Hungary, it seems that the Huns were at least part Xiongnu, since the majority of the Xiongnu seemed to have been Mongoloid and, in antiquity, the Xiongnu empire represented the "Mongoloid" empire that extended the furthest west. So it is actually not such a "stretch".

jurchen fury
09-17-2005, 09:01
Well there was the Gok "Blue" Turks, that then divided into the Eastern and Western Turkish Khagans who were at war often with the Sassanians, and some probably mixed with Iranian peoples in that area. Then the Arab invasions happened, and the Turks broke up into a whole bunch of tribes.

No, the Eastern Kok Turuk (known in Chinese sources as the Eastern Tujue) Kaganate based in the Orkhon valley in Mongolia was conquered by the leading Tang generals Li Jing and Li Shiji during 629-630 CE and was part of the Tang empire for about 50 years. The 8th-century Turkic inscription on the Kocho-Tsaidam also mentions this, apart from the official dynastic histories of the Tang dynasty, the Jiu Tangshu and Xin Tangshu. However, by the end of 682 CE, the Eastern Tujue regained their independence under Kutlugh Kagan and the kaganate was reestablished. This kaganate lasted until one of the Tiele tribes, the Hui (known in later times as the Uygurs) overthrew the II Eastern Tujue kaganate and established their own Uygur kaganate in 744 CE. The Tiele tribes were also another Turkic people but they were not the same as the Tujue and so the Tujue didn't "broke up into a whole bunch of tribes". The Tiele existed before the Tujue and were known in earlier times as the Gaoche, and even earlier, as the Dingling. The majority of the Dingling/Gaoche/Tiele lived around the Lake Baikal area, but a few Tiele had, in earlier times, migrated west into middle Central Asia. There is a possibility that the Onogurs, one of the tribes of the Huns and who later became the Bulgars, may have been a Tiele tribe or at least included some Tiele tribesmen that came from the Tiele in middle Central Asia.

As for the Western Kok Turuks, their khaganate was conquered by the Tang general Su Dingfang in 657 CE when Shabuluo khagan was captured after losing a battle fought near the Issyk-Kol. At this time, the Tang empire extended as far west as the borders of eastern Iran and nominally, their territory stretched as far west as the Caspian Sea. However, the Western Tujue rebelled in 665 CE and regained their independence. By 671 CE, however, the Western Tujue Kaganate was overthrown and was replaced by an empire known as the Turgesh, with the Western Tujue kagan fleeing to Tang China. After losing a battle to the Eastern Tujue in 698 CE, the Turgesh became an Eastern Tujue vassal until 711 CE. In 717 CE, Sulu Kagan became the kagan of the Turgesh. Under his reign, the Turgesh checked the Umayyad Arab expansion in Central Asia and managed to temporarily gain some cities from the Umayyads. He was, however, defeated at Kharistan in 738 CE and returned back to his capital only to be assassinated that year by Bagá Tarkhan Kül Chor, and with that event, the Turgesh empire was engaged in civil war until they were destroyed by the Qarluq Turks in 766 CE.

In short, the Muslim Arab expansion into the Middle East and Central Asia had nothing to do with "the Turks broke up into a whole bunch of tribes". It must also be remembered that the Tujue were not the first Turkic people around; peoples such as the Xiongnu - who established a powerful empire during the 3rd-2nd centuries BC, the Dingling - who existed as early as the Xiongnu, and the Tashtyks - who descended from the peoples of the Minusinsk Basin in southern Siberia, all preceded the Tujue. If you want to know as much as you can about steppe peoples, you can't ignore the Chinese sources, since, for the most part, they give the most detail and info on the steppe peoples compared to most other primary sources of the periods. This may account for the confusion you had regarding the history of the Tujue/Kok Turuks.


Many converted to Islam, though some resisted. In fact, Persians (Iranians), Turks and Arabs were the three main Islamic people. They all sort of helped form what Islam was about, militarily and culturally.

That was much, much later in history. The Volga Bulgars were the first Turkic people to convert to Islam, which happened in 922 CE. The Oghuz, who were either the descendants of the Onogurs or the Tiele (the latter seems to be more likely), converted to Islam during the 10th-11th centuries when Seljuq Begh started the conversion process in the 10th century CE. The Seljuqs stem from the Oghuz. The Qara-Khanids, a state created by the remnants of the Uygurs that had fled from Mongolia to the Tarim Basin when the Uygur empire was overrun by the Kyrgyz in 840 CE, also converted to Islam during the 10th century CE, but the Islamization of the Uygurs continued until up to the 15th-16th centuries CE. Even today, many of the Turkic peoples that remained on the northeastern steppes and in Siberia aren't Muslim but still follow the native Altaic religious traditions and worship Tengri. The modern-day Mongols, who are the descendants of the amalgamation of the Turko-Mongol peoples that Chinggis Khan had united in Mongolia, are Buddhists.


And I think that there is Turkish blood in many modern peoples, from Asia Minor to Asia and the Middle East. Again, I don't know much about the people in that area after the Middle Ages. ~;)
And a main part of that is that I'm not sure how much each nation makes up of ancient Iran, so I'm not sure which of today's nations that Turks invaded, etc.

Modern-day Turkic peoples that look much like their ancestors, ie Mongoloid, include peoples such as the Tuvinians, Yakuts, Kyrgyz, Kazakhs, Yugurs (Sarigh Uygurs), Mongols (as in the Mongols who descended from amalgamated Turkic tribes such as the Kereyids) etc. Apparently, many of them still live on the steppe. Other Turkic peoples (especially sedentary peoples like the Uzbeks and the Tarim Uygurs) are mixed with the local populations, which includes the Uzbeks (who are mixed with Indo-Iranians), the Uygurs who live in the oasis city states of the Tarim (who are mixed with Tocharians or their descendants), and the Bashkors (who are mixed with Finno-Uralics, though some can appear quite Mongoloid while some can also appear quite Caucasoid), as well as the Turkmens (who are mixed with a bunch of local Caucasoid peoples, though their mix seems more obvious like the Bashkors) who are the descendants of the Turkomans of "medieval" times. The Turks of Turkey as well as the Tatars in European Russia and other modern-day Turkic peoples of the Near East and eastern Europe look the most Caucasoid out of all the modern-day Turkic peoples; they look almost no different from an average Westerner.

Steppe Merc
09-17-2005, 15:18
That was much, much later in history. The Volga Bulgars were the first Turkic people to convert to Islam, which happened in 922 CE. The Oghuz, who were either the descendants of the Onogurs or the Tiele (the latter seems to be more likely), converted to Islam during the 10th-11th centuries when Seljuq Begh started the conversion process in the 10th century CE. The Seljuqs stem from the Oghuz. The Qara-Khanids, a state created by the remnants of the Uygurs that had fled from Mongolia to the Tarim Basin when the Uygur empire was overrun by the Kyrgyz in 840 CE, also converted to Islam during the 10th century CE, but the Islamization of the Uygurs continued until up to the 15th-16th centuries CE. Even today, many of the Turkic peoples that remained on the northeastern steppes and in Siberia aren't Muslim but still follow the native Altaic religious traditions and worship Tengri. The modern-day Mongols, who are the descendants of the amalgamation of the Turko-Mongol peoples that Chinggis Khan had united in Mongolia, are Buddhists.
There were Turks who converted to Islam before 922. What of the ghulams, and the many other Turks the Abbasid Caliphate used in their wars?
And I know many Turks did not turn to Islam until much later. However, after the Arab invasions, the conversion of some began.

jurchen fury
09-18-2005, 01:27
There were Turks who converted to Islam before 922. What of the ghulams, and the many other Turks the Abbasid Caliphate used in their wars?

No, I'm talking about Turkic peoples as a whole, meaning their political entities, not individuals. If we're talking about individuals, I could argue that there were Iranians who converted to Islam before the Muslim Arab conquests, namely the Iranians who lived on the northern frontiers of Arabia, yet the fact remains that the majority of Iranians converted to Islam after the Muslim Arab conquests of most of the Middle East. The fact remains that the majority of Turkic peoples at this time were non-Muslim and still believed in the native Altaic religious traditions.

Non-Arab troops, who fought mainly as cavalry, only began to be dominant after Al Mamun's victory over his brother Amin in the Abbasid civil war of 811-813 CE. Iranians formed a major part of the Khurasanis and Turkic captives only formed a part of the Khurasanis. As for the ghulams, Nicolle clearly mentions on pp. 14-15 of his Armies of Islam 7th-11th Centuries that the Turkic ghulams employed during this time consisted largely of adult male warriors and sometimes even aristocratic leaders; they were different from the ghulams of later times, who were trained in the Muslim faith since childhood and freed as Muslim warriors. These ghulams only formed a small, but significant part of the Abbasid military forces.


And I know many Turks did not turn to Islam until much later. However, after the Arab invasions, the conversion of some began.

Again, I'm talking about the Turkic peoples as a whole, not single individuals. If we're talking about individuals, I could argue that some Iranians converted to Islam before the Muslim Arab conquests or that some Germanics converted to Christianity before the Roman empire adopted the Christian faith, but the fact remains that the majority of the mentioned peoples converted to the Muslim and Christian faiths much later in history. No Turkic political entity converted to Islam before 922 CE, and even after that time, the majority of the Turkic peoples weren't Muslim. Neither the Umayyads nor the Abbasids successfully invaded the eastern steppes occupied by Turkic peoples. We have seen, for example, that the Umayyads remained on the defensive in face of the Turgesh invasions under Sulu khagan. Besides, it's a bit oversimplistic to constantly apply the characteristics of one Turkic people to all "Turks", ie, for example, just because the Seljuqs and Ottomans were Muslim doesn't mean that "Turks are Muslim" simply because the Seljuqs and Ottomans don't represent all Turks nor are they the only "Turks" around.

Steppe Merc
09-18-2005, 18:15
Well, I may be wrong. I don't know as much about Turks as I would like to, I mainly know about Iranians, mainly through the research of this mod.
However, I assure you, I am far more intrested in the Turks that stayed on the steppe and did not convert than the Seljuqs and Ottomans. ~;)

Hecate
09-14-2010, 20:45
They will have a difficult time of it, which is what in fact happened historically.



*phlw'nyg or Pahlawanig (Pahlavanig) means Parthian in Middle Persian. The name through association with the Parthians came to mean hero, warrior, champion, and variants of this. For example Pahlawan means "hero" in Kurdish which is related to Median and Parthian as part of the Northwestern branch of West Iranian. Persian itself is of the Southwestern branch of West Iranian.

Finally this name makes sense. You should include this information in the game!

ziegenpeter
09-15-2010, 13:11
Oh dear lord(s)! I was about to wirte a post on how these units look an awful lot like EBI units, why already known factions are missing on the map and why this thread isnt in the EBII forum, but then I fortunatly checked the date of the initial post.
Man, necromancy is a wicked craft!

antisocialmunky
09-16-2010, 03:44
What even happened to khelvan?