Armies In Castles (Campaign Issues)

[Zild]

I'm trying to get a bit of a discussion going on the subject of armies in castles - maybe I'll learn something from it? I'm talking campaign issues here, not battle issues.

To start us off, I've noticed that when an army in a castle is bribed, it revolts immediately. No warning. No one-turn wait. The province and castle change hands immediately.

This is a bit of a problem, no? Rather than lose my province to a bribing faction without the option of defending it, I keep all of my forces outside of the castles. But when you start training new units, they appear inside the castle - and given that everybody else is outside, their very small number make them much cheaper to bribe!

So are there any bonuses to keeping armies in fortifications? I've always suspected they were more expensive to bribe - is this true?

When a faction has an army inside a castle and one outside, does the province switch loyalty straight away, or does a fight ensue? Who counts as the attacker?

Feel free to add as many questions as you answer!

[Budwise]

To start us off, I've noticed that when an army in a castle is bribed, it revolts immediately. No warning. No one-turn wait. The province and castle change hands immediately.


Hold on, you actually get your armies to be bribe. To this day, only one army changed hands from my side to theirs.

What are you all doing differently to be getting all of these interesting games. My consist of -

Build up Province
Build up army
Attack

Rinse, Lather, and Repeat

I hope when I can play campaign mode, I will have an interesting game, thats why I will play the Turks on high period.

[yesdachi]

I have never had the AI bribe one of my armies. is this common?

When I bribe I often run into the “this guy wants more money” issue that always throws my attack plans off. :furious3:

I have never noticed a difference between in or out of the castle.

[mfberg]

Bribe them both the same turn or bribe the one outside the first turn and the one inside the second turn (I usually use three emmisaries on each). I haven't seen the cost of bribing change between inside and outside, the v&v's of the general commanding the stack seem to be the main thing affecting cost (besides units in the stack of course).

mfberg

[Zild]

Bribe them both the same turn or bribe the one outside the first turn and the one inside the second turn (I usually use three emmisaries on each).

I usually do the same...

I've had the occasional army bribed in Early as the English (the campaign I play longest and most often). In my current VI (2.1) Mercians game, the Scots have bribed two armies of mine over the course of about three turns - I think certain factions are more likely to act in such ways, and the Scots might also have an abundance of wealth right now, I guess...

[Patron]

"Build up Province
Build up army
Attack

Rinse, Lather, and Repeat

I hope when I can play campaign mode, I will have an interesting game, thats why I will play the Turks on high period."

You have to throw yourseld into endless wars and on expert mode until you come across barriers and have to find over ways of negotiating around them. I'm always finding myself thinking how useful 10 spies would be and 50 bishops to convert my newly conquerred lands.

[EatYerGreens]

The rebels in my current Byz game got quite advanced, building keeps and all manner of buildings. Some hefty looking Viking units in Sweden, not to mention a readybuilt port, tradepost and shipbuilder (!!) were very tempting for a Byz emperor whose VG's hail from that part of the world.

However, all the rebel territories did a pretty good job of spliting their stacks between inside/outside the castles.

I did ask a question, in some other thread, on how to go about bribing in this situation which didn't get a reply but the above seems to have answered that - multiple emissaries. Not sure why 3 per stack is supposed to help. Is each being offered different prices? Rejecting the first offer doesn't interfere with the follow-ups?

My other question is about the value-for-money (VFM) factor. A whole other debate, perhaps? (I don't want to side-track this thread too much).

The cost of these bribes is usually upwards of 2 grand, even for some very basic unit types, like a few hundred spears and UM. I'm thinking it would be cheaper to build a two-stack army of my own and just take the province conventionally.

I can certainly see the value of bribing in provinces which are out of reach of me by both land and sea and I know Sweden's economic prospects well enough to realise it will pay for itself in relatively few years. On the other hand, lack of a sea link to my Emperor means I also know it's going to be rebellious for quite some time.

[tigger_on_vrb]

If theres stacks both inside and outside the castle its just too easy to bribe the one in the castle - the ones outside then have to siege it or you can then also invade the province conventionally and wont have to siege the castle yourself.
It makes the game too easy and I stopped bribing stacks inside castles completely.

[Zild]

It's not so much about bribing, as being bribed - protecting against it.

@EYG: If you're bribing multiple stacks and need to get the timing right, then it's best to use multiple emissaries for each stack. That way, if the first is rejected, the second will attempt to bribe at the increased amount. If he is also rejected, a third can try at a further-increased amount.

Sure, it's starting to get wildly expensive, but that doesn't mean it's definitely a bad idea - sometimes, there may be no choice. In my case, I'm just lazy - I only like the small battles ;)

[EatYerGreens]

Thanks Zild, that seems to make sense.

I recall one attempt that I ended up aborting, due to the "he now asks for X amount" (more) and that's the end of that mission. With only one Em, that's also the end of that year and, sometimes, timing is everything.

I pulled off a successful bribe earlier but the circumstances were slightly unusual and it took two goes, mainly down to misunderstanding on my part.

1) They have a large 'outdoor' stack and a medium 'indoor' stack, in the castle (with ringwall, of which more later).
2) I set up a bribery mission on the large outdoor one.
3) On the same turn I launch an attack on the province, so I'm half hoping that the bribe is resolved before the battle and the resultant outnumbering makes it an instant retreat to castle type thing.
4) It isn't. The battle needs to be resolved first.
5) Battle setup screen. I realise I forgot to bring my spear units with me - whoops! I plough on regardless.
6) Fun battle but I'll spare the details for 'Pics & history..' thread.
7) Battle won, enemy remnants in the castle.
8) Return to Strat map, Bribery mission goes ahead. I expect the asking price is for the now wrecked units I've just sent packing, so I cancel it.
9) Next turn, siege is in progress, asking price still around 1500 for mostly armoured Slav Warriors and humdrum stuff but the amount of buildings, including swordsmith, port, trade post with two tradeables (Kiev, linking immediatedly to my trade network), farms+, not to mention the castle itself made it an absolute bargain, especially if I can avoid both assault losses and building damage.
10) Activate bribery mission. End Year
11) Siege attacker/defender losses are registered, seeing as I didn't order assault.
12) Bribery mission resolved last but I get a message that the price has been reduced. Obvius cause but I bet you don't see that one often. Someone at CA had their thinking cap on that day, though.
13) Bribe is accepted, territory taken, all buildings intact. Province income about 908 p.a. total, with 470-odd in trade.
14) The 0* general who was in charge of them has 'Good Runner' plus 'Weak Principles', -20% to bribe but lack of checking beforehand means I don't know if he has just acquired EZbribe as a result of my mission or if that's what made it so cheap to begin with. Good though, innit? :deal:

He's Steppe Cav with only 6 men, so he's getting disbanded straight away. I'd disband the lot of them and be content with the building costs saved only most of them went straight to 5-6 shields on the loyalty scale. Amazing what effects cash can have.

Re: Castle & Ringwall. My spies have only just come online, with nil stars. I tested the first of them on the siege-in-progress and he was given a probability of opening the castle gates of..... 0%. Zip, zilch, nada. ~D
I would have bribed anyway but this was the real clincher.

[Ulair]

It's not so much about bribing, as being bribed - protecting against it.

Don't let enemy emissaries live long enough to get near your low-loyalty stacks. Kill 'em at your border - or ideally someone else's border ~;) .

Cheers,
Ulair

[Zild]

Alas, not possible in the current circumstances - my major stacks are on my borders, and his borders have BFs - I think I'd rather let him buy my army than lose loads of assassins... and STILL have the emissary alive to bribe my armies :p

[EatYerGreens]

Assassin 'suckage' tends to happen when both attacker and target are in the same province when you order the attack.

Try this.

Emissary is in A (your province)
Assassin is in B (your province), next door.

Pick up assassin, drop him in Province A. Pick him up again and drop him on the Emissary. End Turn.

If the AI pulls off its cheaty attack-detection trick, you will at least have scared him off your turf for a year. Your assassin will be left behind in Province A and will attempt to cross the border in pursuit next year.
Pick him up and drop him again to cancel the mission, then move him back to Prov B.
Repeat as necessary. Sometimes you may succeed in getting the target.

If Province A is a port, then make assassin's Province B be one of your other ports but not next-door, as he will attempt the overland route, which I think plays a part in the escape cheat. This time, don't move him into A, just drop him on the Em from where he stands, in B. He will auto-move by the sea route.

More often than not, this time he'll kill the target because the AI somehow doesn't see it coming...

[Geezer57]

I recall one attempt that I ended up aborting, due to the "he now asks for X amount" (more) and that's the end of that mission. With only one Em, that's also the end of that year and, sometimes, timing is everything.
(STUFF DELETED)
A small factor of which to be aware: when your Emissary reports back that the bribe amount has increased, there's often an option to go ahead at the old (reduced) amount. If you choose this option, you run the risk of the AI General becoming offended, and executing your Emissary for soiling his honor. No self-respecting General should take a little bribe! ~:)