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Vykke
08-25-2005, 23:55
I know this is kind of an unusual first post for a member; usually I'm content to just lurk and listen to the informed discussions that go on around here, but this looked like so much fun I decided I had to try it! The character you'll be playing is Michael VII of Byzantium. IRL, his rule was a disaster, but just maybe you can change that.

This is an interactive history thread in the vein of Kraxis' "Antiochus' Dilemma." If you aren't familiar with how those work, then here's the lowdown: it's basically going to be me making up a situation and presenting you with choices, and then anyone who posts in the thread (fast!) can decide what choice is made. I'm going to try to keep this pretty historical, but I'm going to have to make up some stuff too. So don't be too surprised if I interpret a character's personality differently from the way someone else did, or if I end up just making up some battlefield geography. A disclaimer: Since it's impossible to test what would have been the right choice in a historical context, basically the "right" choice will be whichever one I feel would have been best. So it's going to be somewhat subjective; there's no help for it.

There's going to be a few differences from the way Kraxis ran his thread:

1) The first three to reply get a say in the choice taken. A tie is settled in favor of the first poster. Effectively, this means that the first poster gets the decision, but the two people who post after him can override him if they both agree on a different choice.

2) I'll probably be posting a bit less frequently than Kraxis (especially on weekends, when I probably won't post at all). Sorry in advance, it's just how my schedule works.

3) Because of the nature of the character you'll be playing, the choices could well end up focusing more on politics and administration than military strategy. Naturally, though, you can choose to take the field yourself and dive into the military sphere if you wish.

4) Because the character starts the thread as co-emperor with his brother and his mother (the Empress Regent), you do not necessarily have absolute control over your realm. They may well make decisions you don't like, and you'll have to live with it, unless you obtain sole sovereignty through your choices.

All right, let's go!

*********************************

You are Michael VII Ducas, Emperor of Rome, or at least what's left of the Roman Empire in this year of 1067. Your father, Constantine X, passed away only weeks ago from illness, leaving his empire to you (his eldest son), and Constantine the Younger (his third and youngest son). His middle son, Andronicus Ducas, does not wear the purple because he failed to pass a political test set before him by his father. You passed it easily. Constantine the Younger did not have to take the test as he was born after your father was given the throne by Isaac I Comnenus. Your father put great value in your mother's wisdom and left the empire in her care as regent until such a time as the two emperors were ready to govern. Although you are in your majority, you have so far not been particularly concerned with the notion of sharing power with your mother, whom you respect. Constantine is still quite young and has been even less politically active than you.

Still, with your father's death it seems appropriate to begin to take part in the management of your empire. You find, however, that you have been out of the loop for a long time; reliable information on the tidings at the fronteir is not easy to come by and your mother seems loathe to tell you everything. Rumor has it, however, that the Turks have been increasing the frequency of their raids into Roman territory, and that the general sent to hold them at bay, Nicephorous Botaniates, has met with little success so far. In addition, talk around the court has it that while your father's efforts to reform the nation's compicated legal system were moderately effective, he neglected financial matters and the Imperial coffers are nearly empty.

Your most trusted advisors and childhood mentors are the orator and philosopher-historian Michael Psellus and your uncle, John Ducas, given the honorific "Caesar" by your father. Both are well-learned and your uncle is a military man as well. Although he holds no formal rank at the present, he has been taking care of equipping and training the military since your father's reign. Naturally, your mother also served as a mentor of sorts and she is considered to have a good eye for economic affairs.

When you express to them your desire to begin taking the responsibilites of an Emperor, your mother asks that the first tast you take as Emperor will be to help her set the nation's taxes in order. "Sad world that it is, we need money to accomplish anything. You've already shown yourself to be a natural financier. Working together, surely we can bring the Imperium back the tax money it needs to restore its greatness." The Caeser makes a similar argument. "Money is our most pressing issue. We need better arms for our troops. You should help your mother, but instead of just filling our treasury, see if you can give any funds you free up to our equippers. I'll handle it from there."

After they depart, Psellus gives a different idea. "While the Imperial finances are important, your majesty, your mother should be able to adequately handle that problem herself. And as much as we both love her, if you want to begin to rule, you would do better to distance yourself from her a bit more. The court will respect you more if they see you act independently. I suggest you go and socialize with the senators, the Patriarch, and perhaps the eunuchs. You are only the second emperor of your line and your family is not yet firmly entrenched on the throne. They will respect your intellect if you let them get to know you, and that will go far toward ensuring the stability of the Empire."

As is your custom, you retire to consider before making a decision. While you are thinking, you are surprised by a message from your brother-in-law Adrian Comnenus. He says that his older brother Manuel, a renowned general, has said that he would be pleased for you to grace him and his men with your presence at some of their training exercises. He says that the men, commoners that they are, believe that your father neglected them and the military in general, and it would do wonders for their morale if you showed them your personal attention.

Your options:

1) Help your mother with the finances. If you manage to improve your income, you'll set aside the excess for now. You'll surely find plenty of uses for it once you're more firmly aware of what's going on. And there's no telling what emergencies might arise.

2) Help your mother with the finances, but immediately divert any new revenue to John Ducas' ledgers, which he'll use to upgrade the men's equipment. This isn't something that can wait any longer than necessary.

3) Woo the court. You need these people on your side, and maybe you'll find out a bit about potential rivals, too.

4) Accept Manuel's invitation. Maybe if you start immersing yourself in military culture it'll start making sense to you. And the morale boost would be helpful.

Strike For The South
08-26-2005, 00:29
I think 4

VAE VICTUS
08-26-2005, 01:36
4. War Is About Finances.

AntiochusIII
08-26-2005, 06:18
Hard choices. Indecisive as I am, this is even harder than normal.

Let's look at the four choices:

1. Though finance is certainly of prime importance in this age (the Seljuks are coming...) the mother seems untrustworthy in her act. After all, looking at the legendary Byzantine tradition of dynastic disputes and court corruption, it would be wise to distance yourself from your mother. Though common sense dictates that trust in your family is the key; the Byzantine history disproves that, very often. If you follow this course, she may as well consider you just a puppet. An expendable puppet, that is.

Not this one.

2. While it is wise to establish a strong military for future campaigns, putting money into John Ducas' hands like this is sealing your own fate. He would likely rebel as he is also a legitimate member of the Imperial family, and seems to have the military in his pocket; otherwise, if you pay him like this, he will CERTAINLY have the military in his pocket now.

A disastrous choice.

3. To woo the court is the perfect Byzantine tradition, again. The pros are that you would've learned much about the political situation, gain potential allies, and discover potential foes. However, this act would clearly alienate yourself from your mother; as she won't tolerate such political moves and immediately sees you as an enemy, something that you cannot afford, for now. Also, looking at history, this Byzantine tradition brings the empire nowhere. Leave the court intrigues for now; you need a capital to broker a deal; a capital like an army of men with swords to back your word, that is. ~;)

Not very wise.

4. While it would be quite risky that the renowned general Manuel could betray you, he might as well be a better ally than the entire court of Constantinople combined. The Roman empire was held up by its military, while succumbed to court intrigues and petty betrayals; you would be wise to establish support of the military. Roman history confirms that no one holds more power than an emperor with the army that backs him. The familiarity of the Byzantine military culture and the men who will soon fight for you is of immense value for future wars; future of the empire. Besides, it is unlikely that your mother would consider this action as an offense since it is only natural that an emperor would be the man to gather support of the army. She is a woman, and she knows it is unlikely that a woman in history (omit Jeanne d'Arc) could control the respect of the army like a man. Your value for her would increase as much as your threat that she should tolerate an increase in your power. She may think of you as a potential strong ally this way.

Though not a perfect choice, is the most sensible one.

I vote 4, just like the people before me.

P.S. Welcome to the .org ~:wave: Did you have fun lurking? ~D

Vykke
08-26-2005, 20:15
Thanks for the sticky!

Sure did! Lurking is undervalued. ;)

*************************

Although playing soldier sounds like the least interesting of the paths suggested to you, sometimes it's best to throw oneself headlong at his failings, and thus overcome them. Your teachers and mother are clearly surprised at your choice, though John Ducas, at least, seems to find it a happy surprise. "A good decision, your majesty. Developing some popularity with the rank and file could do wonders to help their spirit."

The next day finds you at the barracks, overlooking a number of men carrying sharp objects who are undergoing some simple drills. You are met by Manuel and Adrian, who is more of a courtier than a general, though he comes from a military family and seems to be quite comfortable dealing with soldiers and speaking of military matters. Manuel is a charming fellow who thanks you for your attendance and graciously offers to have them perform any drill you request of them. You, naturally, have no idea what would be appropriate, and with equal grace put the decision back in his hands.

The men seem honored by your presence, and let out a hearty cheer. They cheer more when you shock your hosts by offering to take part in one of their physical conditioning drills. It proves to be a vigorous workout, and it isn't long before you begin to have trouble keeping up with the men. Luckily, Adrian rescues you by inventing a pressing issue of state for you to attend to, before you drop out of the exercise and embarass yourself.

You visit the barracks regularly over the course of the season, occasionally taking part in the simpler exercises. One man, a veteran named Eusebios, is assigned to serve as your page whenever you dress in military gear to participate. After dealing with him a number of times, you ask him: "What generals have you been assigned to, Eusobios, and what did you think of them? I'm merely curious," you add when he hesitates. "I promise you, you make speak freely. Your words will reach my ears alone."

"Well, your majesty," he says, unhappy to be on the spotlight but obliged to answer his lord's question, "I've served under several of your many generals. Right now, it's Manuel, as you know. They say he has a gifted mind for strategy. His men like him, sire, myself included. He has served the Empire for years, and I believe him loyal to his family and country."

"Very good. Anyone else?"

"I've also served under Crispinus the Frank," he says, referring to a general who is currently stationed in Bari, the Empire's last stronghold in Italy. "I had the pleasure to meet him personally several times, as well as see him in battle. His prowess in battle is awesome. As a leader and tactician, I believe him capable. As a man, he is honorable but mercurial, quick to take offense and quick to forgive. I've served under Romanus Diogenes as well, when he drove back the Pechenegs for your father. He, too, is a brave man, and aggressive on the battlefield. I must tell you that his temper and arrogance are not admirable, but, if I may say so, our precious Empire has few other generals willing to move headlong into the teeth of the enemy."

You recieved word just yesterday evening that Diogenes had been arrested on charges of consipiracy against the Empress Regent. You decline to mention this to your servitor, however, preferring that he continue to speak. "Have you served under anyone else?"

"That is all, my lord. I can tell you nothing of Nicephorus Bryennius, and of Nicephorus Botaniates all I can tell you is what every soldier knows: he is a most experienced general and some say he is the best to serve our Empire in our time. Of course, I like to think that Manuel bears that honor," he says. He hesitates again, and after some more encouragement, tells you, "Rumor has it that there is a rivalry between Botaniates and Comnenus, but one never knows the truth behind the barracks grapevine," he adds, not wishing to be accused of spreading gossip.

On the domestic scene, your mother has, like she expected, found a number of tax evaders among the upper classes and inefficiencies in the tax collection system. Still, correcting these problems produces only a modest increase in revenue. She has set aside these extra denarii for use another day.

Later, the Caesar calls a meeting of military minds in order to settle matters of recruiting. You ask to attend, as do all three of the generals currently residing in Constantinople. While any army should contain a reasonable balance of troops, it might be wise to emphasize the recruitment of certain troop types. Talk around the table hovers a bit on the adversaries your army will be facing; most agree that the Turks will be the greatest threat, though it's noted that previous victories over the Uze and Pechenegs were far from total, and that the Normans under Robert Guiscard have already taken part of Sicily and, though there is peace at the moment, may well decide to take the rest someday.

John Ducas says his piece first. "I think barbarian mercenaries are our best bet. The Pechenegs have fought well for us in the past, and we have a few in our army already. They are excellent horsemen and mounted archers, and eager to serve for Roman coin."

Manuel disagrees. "I believe we should draw from our own pool of strength, your majesty. I know of several units of foot archers that distinguished themselves in service of the Bulgarian theme during the wars with the Pechenegs and Uze. If you request their transfer to Imperial command, they could prove useful."

Your uncle provides a second opinion. "If you'd rather use our own troops, I'd prefer we recruit Macedonian spearmen. They're good, Romanized people and should be quite loyal."

Bryennius has another plan. "There are a number of Armenian refugees who fled after the conquest of their homeland by the Turks during your father's reign and are now living in Phrygia. If you recruit them and equip them as light infantry, they will fight hard to win back their homeland in the event of war with the Sultan, and may make valuable scouts in conflicts in the East, as well."

You, however, think back to what Eusebios said about Crispinus' uncanny military prowess. The Franks are well-known for their skill and fighting spirit. The Empire already employs a few Western knights-errant (Crispinus being such a one); perhaps establishing a larger force of them would lend the cavalry strength needed to turn the tide of battle.

As presiding Emperor, it is your decision to make. You may choose up to two troop types to focus recruitment on.

discovery1
08-26-2005, 21:51
I suggest that you hire the Bulgarian archers. They are already in the service of the empire, so their loyalty is certain. And they will keep Turkish horse archers at bay.

Vykke
08-26-2005, 21:51
I should probably let you know what sorts of troops are already under the Imperial banner. Currently, your army is composed to a large degree of mercenaries: Russian, Georgian, and Frankish spearmen total about 20,000, plus about 10,000 light infantry, mostly Crimean Goths and Bulgars. For native troops, you have about 8,000 each of skutatoi (pikemen with archers mixed into the formation) and menavlatoi (lightly armored men with heavy javelins). The Varangian Guard number roughly 3,000. In the cavalry sphere, you have about 5,000 Pecheneg horse archers, 8,000 light and medium lancers (mainly Khazars and Alans) and 4,000 Imperial Tagmata heavy cavalry with bow and spear, plus a few hundred Norman and French knights.

This doesn't count the troops raised under the theme system (sort of like a Byzantine feudal system, with local leaders contributing troops to the Emperor's command in an emergency). In a pinch, you'll be able to draw on some of them as well, but you don't have much control over who they recruit or how they train them. Most will be of low quality.

King Henry V
08-26-2005, 22:11
I think that it would be best to hire the Macedonian spearmen and the Armenian light infantry. The former would be most useful against the Normans and the latter against the Turk, the two greatest threats to the Empire.

SwordsMaster
08-26-2005, 22:20
Pechenegs and Bulgarians. You need light cavalry against the turks and archers to protect your cities.... The others are fine, but you can always train peasants to serve as spearmen....

King Henry V
08-26-2005, 22:27
Foot archers and light infantry are the most effective counter against HA. They can just shoot better.

edyzmedieval
08-26-2005, 22:34
You need to hire Pecheneg mercenaries, as they are effective horse archers. Cuman light cavalry, as light cavalry, with a devastating charge.

Armenians are a good addition, but they can dezert fast because they don't love the Greeks(Manzikert is the best example).

AntiochusIII
08-26-2005, 23:23
Bulgarians are most needed for sure. They can counter Turkish horse archers with their own rain of arrows and are useful in any other battles otherwise. They are also more loyal than most, being veterans of the Empire. A worthy choice.

Recruit these archers.

While having horse archers is always useful, I don't really see their uses for now. These men, equals to the future enemies Turkish horsemen as they may be, are not going to be very loyal (except to your money) and your treasury isn't very deep just yet to ensure their loyalty throughout. You already have some of them, too. Besides, possible war in Italy makes them less useful, since horse archers don't do well in the mountains of Greece and the hills of Italy and Sicily, as Attila's campaign into Italy itself shows.

We don't need the Pechenegs.

Frankish knights, powerful heavy cavalry as they were, are proven to be of disadvantage against lighter cavalrymen in open space - in Anatolia. Crusades, anyone? Also, remember the Fourth Crusade; the Franks are not to be trusted, especially if any of us harbors any future ambitions for Italy. Also, the Franks would probably side with the Normans in case of a conflict.

Not necessarily the best choice.

However, now comes two quite equally useful choices: the Macedonian spearmen or the lighter Armenians.

Macedonian Spearmen:
pros - loyal, tough, and are useful counters of the Norman heavy cavalry.
cons - practically useless against the Turks. But may be they'll serve as good garrison.

Armenian Light Infantry:
pros - scouting capability, flexible, useful against the Turkish horde
cons - disloyal, for sure, and are useless against the Normans.

I'd choose, with risk, the Macedonians. The Bulgarians can counter the Turkish horde (and you already have some other units, as well) and we need some loyal "core" of the army that will not break in tight spot, especially against the Norman knights, while the Themes in Anatolia may provide some of the light infantry needed in case of the Eastern conflicts.

Let the descendants of the legendary Alexandrian phalangites return to the battlefield once more. :) Recruit the Macedonians.

Hence my choices: Bulgarian archers (I love the MTW brigands ~D ) and Macedonian spearmen.

edyzmedieval
08-26-2005, 23:42
The Macedonians only against the Normans.
Against the Turks they are useless.

If you don't have Pechenegs, how are you gonna kill the HA?!
Archers are not enough. Parthian cavalry. (see: Parthian shot)

The Armenians are not loyal to the Byzantines. They desert fast.

Franks. Why do you need franks?! Don't you have the famous Byzantine cavalry, composed of Klibanophoroi?!

AntiochusIII
08-27-2005, 00:03
But our treasury (okay, Byzantine treasury ;p) are still not strong according to the description and these Pechenegs are mercenaries; you need gold to ensure their loyalty to the end. (We also got some of them already, 4000 and also 8000 "steppe cavalry" in MTW terms) The HA's in reality are also useless in mountainous Greece and hilly Italy. The Macs can do wonders against the Norman knights (think of them as less heavy predecessors of the Swiss) and they serve as a loyal and tough garrison in to hold key locations in Anatolia. The description Vykke gave us about Byzantine military shows no tough core infantry save for 3000 Varangians. The HA can't really fight an archery duel against the Bulgarian archers, and they can't charge them down if we have Macs guarding them. Then the cavalry can go on mopping up. Also, we can at least rely on the Themes in Anatolia to give us some light infantry/cavalry for more maneuverability.

Edit: Also historically (as at Manzikert) the Pechenegs and the Franks are untrustworthy and the former betrayed Byzantium for their Turkish cousins while the latter did not participate in the battle and just fled the war.

Marshal Murat
08-27-2005, 03:42
Also historically, against the Turks, the Byzantines would draw their troops up, and have their archers with LONGER bows, engage in an archery duel with HA. If the HA attack, then ride in with light cavalry and kill them all!!!
(Look up Roman tactics on Google)

Vykke
08-27-2005, 08:22
Manuel's suggestion sounds very appealing, especially considering that you know these are already quality troops who've seen battle before. You decide to focus as much as possible on building that strong archer contingent that will turn the tide of battle in your favor. The general smiles and makes arrangements to personally present to you the new archer units as soon as possible. Unfortunately, it turns out that the bowmen Manuel had heard of are only 5,000 strong all together. At your urging, Manuel and the Caesar do some more recruiting among the Bulgarian population in order to fill them out to a potent 10,000 while allowing an even mixture of veteran and green soldiers in each unit. The Caesar also manages to scrape up the funds to hire an additional 2,000 skutatoi, bringing your total to 10,000.

Training of the new soldiers begins immediately, and you drop in now and then to supervise, but you begin to feel a need to enjoy yourself with some of your old pursuits, to immerse yourself in literature at the palace library or indulge yourself in engaging conversations with the clever philosophers and inventors of your people. After all, from where does wisdom come? Not from the sword, but from the pen. That thought strikes you as remarkably poetic, and you have sat down to compose a suitable iambic when your mother enters your room suddenly. She is remarkably agitated, but you can't tell what emotions are clamoring in her heart - there seem to be several. Old Psellus follows her in, his face ashen.

She sits down on your bed, where you were resting in happy contemplation a moment before, and when she speaks it is in a very formal tone. "My Emperor, best of my sons. Rise up, and meet your step-father." You stare at her in disbelief as she continues. "I have chosen Romanus Diogenes to be my husband. Although he takes the place of your father, he will be a subject, not a ruler. I, your mother, have bound him in writing to observe this arrangement. And with his able help we will again elevate our great Empire into one that will inspire wonder in all her neighbors!"

"He waits downstais, before the palace doors," she tells you after allowing a moment for the announcement to sink in. "We have secured the Patriarch's approval; the marriage will take place immediately. Come, my Emperor, and greet your step-father with open arms."

Psellus says nothing at all but looks at you imploringly, probably hoping you will talk her out of this. In your confusion, several possibilities come to mind:

1) Go along with it. It sounds like her mind's made up, so there's no sense in arguing with her. You remember thinking that the evidence of his treason did seem less than convincing, and who knows, she might succeed in turning an enemy into a powerful ally.

2) You are not foreign to the skills of debate, and your mother has always seemed so intelligent. Surely she won't marry a man who plotted her death! You must convince her to see reason!

3) Seek out your uncle and ask him to help you stop this fiasco. You know he dislikes Diogenes, and with his backing and your status as Constantine's heir, you should be able to avert this with law or force, whatever is necessary.

4) Seek out Manuel. You've built up some good will with him, and your mother and "stepfather" are threatening your rightful inheritance! Such a situation calls for drastic action, even if it means bringing an army to the palace gates.

AntiochusIII
08-27-2005, 09:05
Gosh. This is harsh! ~D

Very well, she's going down one way or the other. Disregard 1 and 2; she's certainly plotting against you.

As the first chapter provides you with the support of the army, the woman is looking to the traitorous-but-skilled general as an alternative to your support and a balance to your newfound power. She has to go; otherwise you'll go; or the civil war will ruin your chances in foreign conflicts.

So it's 3 and 4, but I know nothing of the mentality of your two supporters. Will Manuel comes to support you with his forces if he heard the situation and how you pledge your case to Caesar, or will Caesar supports you if you rally Manuel and practically besiege the palace? Both people's loyalty are, from what I see, strong. So it's quite hard to judge their actions though you can count on both ways to gain at least one supporter.

I'd go for three, however. Drastic actions may take place in the next chapter if diplomacy and influence fails. Let's hope Manuel will be wise enough to join you.

The fourth action may alienate your mentor and uncle and the court. It's not very wise to risk civil war in such dangerous times. The third will at least garner his support and probably useful advice. In fact, after you meet with John Ducas "Caesar" you may even go on rallying the troops now that he's assured that you recognize him first. This is actually the way I see as the best.

I choose choice 3, but would change if other people shows the mistake in my judgement in time. :)

I know this mother is really going to be a problem, but I can't believe it's this fast. lol, it caught our young emperor off-guard. ~:cool:

King Henry V
08-27-2005, 11:43
1. Is a very risky strategy, if not downright foolish. Mothers have not really had a reputation for love in the Byzantine court and she could easily plot Michael's downfall at court.
2. Is likely to be uselesss. Nothing will probably come of it, however it could be a good primary plan. If it fails you can always use force.
4. Seems too blunt. Remember, subtlety is everything at court.
I would go with number three. Your uncle seems a wise man who could be able to divert the situation.

Kraxis
08-27-2005, 16:09
You are yourself a courtier, so you should draw on that strength. Go with #3.

Marshal Murat
08-27-2005, 22:56
3 would be a good option.
It would secure your position in the throne with your Uncles consent, as you are a lesser of two evils.

edyzmedieval
08-27-2005, 23:08
3 is the best.

There's no point in convincing your mother, and your uncle's help is very good. Psellos is a very wise and clever man, and also Diogenes.

4 would be too drastic, and the army may revolt against you!!!!

Vykke
08-29-2005, 09:20
You storm out of the room without a word, leaving your mother and Psellus to wonder whether you're going to meet your intended stepfather or not. You find your uncle in his quarters and quickly explain the situation to him. He'd apparently picked up a couple of court rumors about plans for "something big," but for all intents and purposes, he was as in the dark as you. Although he, too, seems upset at your mother's plans, he hesitates. "Your majesty, are you sure you want to stop this wedding? I believe we can, but not without tearing our family asunder."

Your reply: "Regardless of my mother's intentions, an error in judgement can be just as damning as a failing of loyalty. You know Romanus Diogenes. He is not the right man to save the Empire. Such arrogance can only bring foolishness, treason, and the ire of God."

John Ducas nods slowly. "You are right, your majesty. Come to the Great Hall. We won't bow to the likes of him."

As you move, he tells you that you should enter and declare yourself to be in full majority and prepared to govern without assistance, invoking the will of your father. Your mother will then be legally required to abdicate her position as Empress Regent. You can then forbid the wedding from taking place. Meanwhile, John will rally some nearby guards and bring them into the Great Hall where he will then declare his support for you. Hopefully this will be enough to get your mother and the rest of the court to capitulate.

You arrive in the Hall to find it already almost filled with courtiers, family members, civil servants, and ambassadors from nations across the known world. Romanus Diogenes stands near the the center of the gathering with the Patriarch of Constantinople. The good Patriarch, a man appointed by your father, seems not quite able to hide a sour expression on his face, leading you to wonder how your mother garnered his support. Your mother also stands nearby, apparently less interested in wedding tradition than in seeing you and your brothers greet Diogenes. You wait a minute to make sure the Caesar has enough time to get ready, then clear your throat to get everyone's attention.

"I, Michael VII, am now of a fit age to take on the responsibilites of governing the Empire. I thank you for your assistance and service, mother, but they will no longer be needed. By the authority of my father, Constantine X, I am, from now on, Emperor of Rome."

There is utter silence among all those that hear you. Those farther away continue talking for a few moments more, then gradually fall silent as they realize that something is happening. You're well aware that your legal position isn't quite as firm as John implied, because your father never left any stipulations in the will about who would decide when the regent would give up her position. He'd assumed his wife and children would remain on good terms after his death as they had in life. The look of hurt on her face is painful, but you tell yourself that you can't betray someone who has already done the same to you.

"You are not the Emperor, Michael." Diogenes looks ready to cook an ox with his eyes. "The Empress' will is law! You speak out of turn."

"You stand convicted of conspiracy and treason," you reply, "and you accuse ME of speaking out of turn? You should be rotting in your cell."

At this point, the silence ends with a number of people speaking at once. A philosopher-statesman (whose name is John Scylitzes, you recall) steps up and begins trying to mediate, calling for a peaceful resolution. A number of other people start asking each other questions. The ambassador from Kiev attempts to get everyone else to be quiet and only adds to the din. And a man rushes up to Diogenes' side. You have a good head for names, and you recall that this man's is Chatatoures, and that he's a friend of Diogenes.

You are beginning to get nervous when John Ducas' voice bellows across the hall. "Hail, Michael Ducas, Emperor of Rome!" A score of bearded men in heavy scale armor stand behind him as he drops to one knee before you.

This does a good job of resurrecting the silence that the Kievan sought so hard, but it's quickly broken again by your brother, Andronicus. "Hail, Michael Ducas!"

The Caesar's two sons cry "Hail!" as well, quickly followed by Psellus and Adrian Comnenus. Soon most of the rest of the court follows their example. Diogenes and Chatatoures stand stony-faced in front of your mother, who looks on the verge of tears. Diogenes, for one, looks on the verge of drawing his sword, and you uncomfortably realize that if he could reach you he could cut you down easily, but John Scylitzes is still between you and the usurper doesn't seem willing to destroy any remaining claim to moral superiority by cutting down the diplomat. Instead he turns to the Patriarch. "Father, tell us who is in the right! Who shall be emperor!" The priest remains silent, however. Your co-emperor, Constantine the Younger, sits in silence as well.

The Varangians close in on Diogenes and Chatatoures, finally pushing Scylitzes out of the way, and form a semicircle around them. Chatatoures seems to argue with Diogenes for a few moments, then calls to you in an Armenian accent, "You have won, your majesty. We have no choice but to submit to your authority. But I beg that you do not judge my good friend too harshly, as he sought only the hope that was offered to him, as would any man who languished in prison. Your mother, too, sought to deal you no harm."

It seems you face your first choice as ruler of Byzantium. You must decide the fates of your mother, Diogenes, and, it seems, his friend as well.

Your two mentors come to your side. "Your father avoided capital punishment whenever possible, your majesty, and you would be wise to follow in his footsteps," advises Psellus. "I suggest imprisoning Diogenes in reasonable conditions and allowing your mother to continue to live in the palace with you, albeit in a less prominent fashion, of course. She meant well, but was overcome by foolishness. Also, showing mercy will convince the court that you are not a power-hungry tyrant. As for the Armenian, his only crime was loyalty to his friend. If you won't let him go, then the worst you should do is banish him."

Your uncle takes a more firm stance. "I, too, think execution is a poor choice, but there are other ways to eliminate an enemy, and more certain than imprisonment. Have Diogenes blinded, and his companion as well. Then they will no longer be a threat. As for my step-sister, I don't know what her intentions were, but I'm afraid that keeping her at your side now would be too much risk. Have her take a nun's vows, and she will live in peace without posing you trouble."

You may decide on the fate of each person seperately. These are the options that seem to be worth considering (you can't bring yourself to have your mother blinded):

A - Diogenes:
1) Exile
2) Imprisonment
3) Blinding

B - Your mother:
1) Let her stay at the palace
2) Send her to a convent
3) Exile
4) Imprisonment

C - Chatatoures:
1) Let him go
2) Exile
3) Imprisonment
4) Blinding

SwordsMaster
08-29-2005, 09:34
Diogenes: exile
Keeping him in prison would only increase his possibilities of conspiring against you in the shadow, while at the same time keeping him close to your mother which at this point is not a wise choice....
Your mother: Let her stay. You have to make the point that Diogenes was the enemy, and not her.
Chatatoures: let him go. As said, he had nothing to do with anything....

edyzmedieval
08-29-2005, 09:39
A3

B2

C3

Diogenes has to be eliminated. The Empress to a Monastery, and the other one, to the prison.

Kraxis
08-29-2005, 12:13
Well... It is a hard choice given the two who have already answered.

I would prefer imprisonment, but that would end up having him exiled (rule of the first answer), and I most certainly don't want that. If he is exiled he might get a lot of foregin backing, especially amongthe latins. A scary thought of 1204 comes to mind...
So for him it is my mind better with option 3, though I don't like it at all. A3

The mother...
Well, she is your mother, she has been married, she has done her job. No need to punish her outright. But we don't know what she might do now, out of spite or out of foolish action. Send her to the convent.
B2

The Armenian.
He is a minor noble, he is not strong enough to gather support alone. But if you let him stay with Diogenes he could be his hands and eyes. Exile, perhaps he can go home? C2

King Henry V
08-29-2005, 18:18
Diogenes should be blinded. He will no longer be a threat if you do so. Exile the Armenian. Your mother, after the sad passing of her husband, will devote the rest of her life to God and her Salvation.

AntiochusIII
08-30-2005, 02:19
Any mercy for Diogenes on your part is folly; blind him. I support choice 3. He challenged you openly - others may try in the future if they think they may get away with it with possibilities for future attempt.

Send the empress to the Convent - effective and reasonable. She shall be removed from the political field, but you won't bring the ire of God (in the eyes of the people ~;) ) by mistreating your own mother. Choice 2.

As for the Armenian, you need to show that you're not a tyrant to the court; and he is powerless on his own. Banish him, to show that law and order still works in the empire, but that you are merciful in judgement. To let him get away with that freely defies legal justice, and therefore your own Imperial authority, even if it is an honourable choice. Choice 2: Exile.

Geoffrey S
08-30-2005, 15:52
Basically what everyone else said. Blind Diogenes, send the mother to a convent, and the Armenian should be exiled; whatever happens Diogenes should not be exiled, as he is certainly capable of seeking foreign backing for his claims to the throne. In this way Diogenes is punished and sets an example for others, the mother can't be used by political enemies any longer, and the Armenian's freedom shows the emperor's mercy and as he's a minor noble doesn't offend the Armenians like a harsher punishment might.

SwordsMaster
08-30-2005, 19:55
But he doesnt actually have any claims to the throne whatsoever. Specially now that the court have officially recognized you as the new emperor. Besides, you know that right now he doesnt have the support of your court. If you blind him, he might get that support (he suffered for his ideas, etc...)

Similarly for the Armenian. You want to reward loyalty, not punish it with exile...

As for your mother, it doesnt make much difference if you lock her up in a convent or not. I just thought that it would be a nice move to show that Diogenes was the enemy, and not her, and that her decision to marry him was just a momentary weakness...

Vykke
08-30-2005, 20:18
Just as an FYI (because there seems to be a little bit of confusion), Diogenes did not actually marry your mother, she didn't want to start the wedding until you showed up, and when you did you stopped the ceremony from happening. My fault, I should have made that more clear.

********

Your uncle is right - imprisonment will not suffice for a man as ambitious as Diogenes. At your command, the Varnagians seize the usurper and hoist him before you. "The words of your friend are well-spoken, but you did more than seek reprieve from your sentence. You seduced my mother and plotted to overturn the Empire itself. You have now proven yourself a traitor twice over, and deserve no reprieve. However, I shall take only your eyes, and not your life." You turn to a captain of the Varangians who arrived only seconds ago. "You will take this man to the dungeons. If he has any family in the city, allow them to be the last thing he gazes upon in this world. Carry out the sentence at sundown."

After the captain leaves with Diogenes in tow, you turn to his friend. "You have violated no law, Chatatoures, and are therefore free to go. I suggest, however, that you do not cross me in the future." Chatatoures bows stiffly, watching Diogenes go. Once his friend is out of sight, he turns and walks from the hall without a backward glance.

Finally, only your mother is standing before you. However, the days events weigh on you, and suddenly you find that passing judgement on her now, after all that has happened, is just too much. You can't find the words. Instead you send her to her quarters. After a few hours pass, you write an order that commands her to pack up her things and vacate the Imperial suite that she shared with her father: you will now be residing there, and she will retire to a nunnery on the island of Patmos where she may find peace and communion with God.

Days go by, and as you pick up the reins of government, you begin to realize just how much work your mother did in managing the Empire. The responsibilities of rule now rest squarely on your shoulders; you'll just have to get used to them. Formal letters congratulating you on your ascension begin to arrive as you grow accustomed to all of the little day-to-day decisions.

You are told that Romanus Diogenes has sickened from his wounds, and is expected to die within a week.

However, you have more pressing concerns. Now that you are the one everyone reports to, you realize why your mother had been willing to take desperate measures: Turcomen have begun crossing the border into Cappadocia in huge numbers, both warriors and civilians, and are driving your citizens from their homes. Botaniates is helpless to stop them all with the forces under his command. Whether or not this is being supported by the Seljuk Sultan is unknown - he has notoriously poor control over those nomads. Your mother probably believed that she needed a military man in charge who was willing to act boldly. Obviously, this does not present a flattering opinion of your martial prowess.

Regardless, a military solution seems to be in order. You seek counsel, and get four opinions.

John Ducas urges patience. "We need more time to prepare," he says. "Our army's eqipment is old and needs replacement, and the new recruits need more time to hone their skills. We have a bit of money in the treasury; if we start using it to equip our regulars we will have new equipment for most of our regulars and we will have finished training the recruits in a month or two. In the meantime, we can send some of our mercenary divisions east to help Botaniates."

Manuel also gives his advice, as is becoming customary. "I, too, think we should wait and train, but instead of rearming our troops, we should hire more mercenaries, preferably cavalry. In this instance, we will need to cover a lot of territory in order to protect our citizens, so sheer numbers are critical, and mercenaries are the only way to increase our numbers rapidly enough to suit our needs."

Psellus disagrees with the notion that we must react with overwhelming military force. Instead, he gives a relatively novel solution. "We can incorporate the Turcomen into our Empire, as we have done with many other people since Antiquity. Once pacified, they will offer valuable skills that we could draw upon. To do this, we should temporarily grant money to the themes that are under attack to help them build up sufficient strength to stop the violence. They will be better able to act at a local level than an Imperial army, and that's what is needed. Of course, we will need to send priests to convert them and educate them in our ways. If we cannot stop the violence, we can turn to the army later."

You've begun speaking with John Scylitzes since he came to your attention at the wedding, and found that he sometimes offers fresh insight different from that of your traditional circle of advisors. After you tell him about the situation, he does so again. "Do not hesitate, your majesty. I think your mother believed we should act immediately - why else marry our most aggressive general? - and I believe she was right. The longer we wait, the more invaders will cross our border, and the more wealth they will take from our people." If you go with this option, it might be wise to reserve that money sitting in the treasury for logistical support.

SwordsMaster
08-30-2005, 20:30
3. Psellus' advice. If you can't win them, make them join you. You can always gather an army of mercs to crush them if needs be.... And you would be weakening the Sultan at the same time.

Vykke
08-30-2005, 20:31
Oh, in case you're wondering, it's now late March, 1068.

edyzmedieval
08-30-2005, 20:43
We are nearing Manzikert.

We need to attack fast. But for now, we have to wait. Constructing forts along the main keys in Cappadocia is very important. The best horses, especially to equip Kataphraktoi and Klibanophoroi, are bred in Cappadocia. Cappadocia must be defended at all cost, but for now, wait.

King Henry V
08-30-2005, 20:55
Do not hesitate. Attack immediately. Do not allow these nomads to settle or gain any hold. They are the enemy within. Follow Scylitzes advice.

Kraxis
08-30-2005, 22:21
#3
The Turks are in search of somewhere to call home, let's give them that. They also look for a way to live, let's give them that as well.
Lastly, it is wellknown that there is a lot of disagreement in the ranks of the Turks. It doesn't seem all that unlikely that these Turks will resent some of the other tribes for past actions.

AntiochusIII
08-30-2005, 23:55
Isn't it too risky to let the Turks immigrate the lands in huge numbers, just like the Visigoths of old Rome? I feel that we shouldn't make the mistake Rome made long ago, as some of your subordinates (the themes of Anatolia) may not be able (or unwilling) to give the Turks a "home sweet home" they seek. Your local indigenous population would lose their loyalty to you and the Turks won't be loyal to you either. They'll probably rebel as enemies from within, a destructive situation. Manzikert is coming. [Diogenes, historically, was the one to fight and John Ducas (I think...) betrayed him there - Michael Ducas (you) would rule later and ineffectually saw Asia Minor taken away by floods of Turkish horde-immigrants] This would ruin you. I strongly suggest other choices.

However, the remaining choices are very hard to pick.

John Ducas' - retraining and rearming available forces
pros - stronger units in the pitched battle
cons - loss of speed/initiative, no extra manpower

Manuel's - gathering huge mercenary forces
pros - increased manpower, if cavalry, greatly increased mobility and flexibility
cons - emptied treasury, loss of initiative, possible betrayal by mercenaries at the height of the conflict

John Scylitzes' - attack immediately
pros - the initiative
cons - no extra manpower, not as strong units as the first choice

John Ducas' choice isn't worth it. The stronger units will do well in the pitched battle, true, but the situation will get worse quickly. Manuel's choice, though normally useful, is too dangerous; the Pechenegs historically betrayed Byzantine forces at Manzikert for the Turks - if this happens again we will be doomed in the field. So I choose the last choice: 4. Though I fear the campaign may be hard to conduct (especially NOT to get bogged down) the Imperial show of force is necessary to put a halt to the Turkish progress. Why, then, would your mother betray you for Diogenes had she not see the dangers of the situation? I doubt Ducas would betray you in the field like he did against Diogenes historically (did I confuse him with someone else?) and the Turks had not made that far in Cappadocia that you would be bogged down in your campaign. Defeat them early before they scatter far enough, and invade in much enough numbers to be too hard to crush.

Vykke
08-31-2005, 18:48
The more you think about it, the more you like Psellus' idea. The surest way to win a war is to turn your enemy's strength into your own. After discussing the particulars with the orator some more, he agrees to depart for the eastern provinces and direct the program himself. There he will meet up with Botaniates, who will help him deal with the martial side of the matter. You will miss Psellus' wise and steady presence, but you'll surely need a trustworthy supervisor on the scene, and no other appropriate candidate comes to mind. You watch him go with a heavy heart, as without your mother or Psellus your inner circle has begun to look discouragingly small.

You soon recieve word from the court doctor that Diogenes has died of infection, as was expected. The next evening, Andronicus requests permission to enter your suite. "Brother, I know you have been busy of late," he says after some small talk, "but because you have been distracted by affairs of state, there are a few small things I thought might be best brought to your attention." After being motioned to continue, he goes on: "There are whispers among the servants that you intended the death of Diogenes. There are probably those who believe them. In addition, I have heard that the aristocrat Theodatus Arianites gave a speech to the senate that painted your rise to power as being won by trickery at the expense of your mother."

"That is unfortunate," you note. "What was their reaction?"

"Bear in mind that I wasn't there, but I'm told that their applause was more than courtesy required."

You go to sleep that night worried about what your brother told you, but matters of international diplomacy have been catching your attention lately.

The last of the letters arrive from foreign leaders, offering greetings or blessings. A polite one arrives from Alp Arslan of the Seljuk Empire, wishing you pleasant days. You did not recieve such a letter from the Pope, but that's not surprising: the two churches excommunicated one another in a feud between the Pope and the Patricarch of Constantinople fifteen years ago, and though a new person now occupies each position, hard feelings linger. You also did not recieve a letter from Robert Guiscard the Norman.

Some of the couriers come bearing more than letters, however: a few carry minor gifts, and three have brought offers of true value: princesses. It appears that since becoming senior Emperor in Constantinople, you have become a very eligible bachelor. The ambassadors present their ladies with aplomb, each dressed in her nation's traditional garb but decked out with a few Greek touches so they don't seem too alien.

From the Holy Roman Empire comes a light-haired woman named Helena of Swabia, sent by her mother, the dowager Empress Agnes, who, not unlike your own mother once did, sits as regent until her son comes of age. As for Helena herself, it is difficult to tell much about her personality from what little you have seen of her, but you've noticed that she is willing to smile at almost anyone, be they servants, guards, or even your co-Emperor, Constantine.

The Khan of the Cumans sends Issedo, a young girl who generally keeps her eyes downcast politely, but you think she has a habit of studying people out of the corners of her eyes.

The King of the Alans sends Maria, who also seems very demure, but you get the impression that this is not so much from cultural norms and courtesy, but rather the result of genuine shyness.

On the other hand, thinking back to what Andronicus told you, one of the leading senators, Celcus Iagaris, has an eligible daughter who has begun attracting serious suitors. You've spoken with her a couple of times in passing, and she seems intelligent enough.

Facing such a highly personal decision, you decide not to seek advice, but do some investigation yourself to discover the best choice. You may:

1) Marry Helena of Swabia. While the Holy Roman Empire and Byzantium have many reasons to feud - both claim to be the successors of Rome, and both have historically laid claim to southern Italy - there is also a good reason to cooperate with the Germans, because you are both enemies of the Normans of Sicily. Also, marrying her would make you brother-in-law not only of the king of Germany, but of Solomon I of Hungary as well, who is married to Helena's sister. She is Catholic.

2) Marry Issedo. The Cumans have been both helpful allies and dangerous enemies of Constantinople in the past. Marrying their princess should go a long way toward ensuring a benevolent relationship, and they could make critical allies against Hungary or the Pechenegs. She is a pagan, which gives you pause, but you get the impression of intelligence from her. Maybe she'll be willing to convert.

3) Marry Maria. Though the Alans are not as strong as they once were, in recent years they have been on the rise again. They have long been on good terms with the Empire and practice good, Orthodox Christianity. Their location north of the Cacausus puts them in a position to be potential allies against the Turks if conflict breaks out in Armenia.

4) Propose to Epiphania, the daughter of Celcus Iagaris. It seems unlikely that her father would reject an offer from an Emperor, and this could win you a powerful ally among the upper class.

5) Marry no one yet. Alliances are a two-way street, and the Empire does not have the resources available at the moment to help anyone else with their problems. Besides, you don't have time for a domestic life.

SwordsMaster
08-31-2005, 19:15
I reckon this is the toughest one so far.... In matters of women a man can't ever be wise enough.... ~D

Anyway, number 1 is definitely not a viable option, as the Germans are a potential enemy and the princess seems a bit..... of short-lasting convictions shall we say..... ~;) And besides, of all your concerns, Sicily is probably one of the least important ones. Its loss doesn't subtract significantly from the Empire, but Anatolia's loss does.

The pagan is also out of the question. Not only the Pope would not send you his blessing, but your own patriarch will be irated and will sell you to the Germans you just refused. Could get VERY nasty....

Maria or Epiphania?

I'd say Maria (3) as you will need to secure the turkish border ASAP to turn your efforts into re-assembling your military machine to suit pressing needs. And we are nearing Manzikert as said earlier so you will need allies on that side.

5. Seems like a viable option also and I'm willing to reconsider 3 to 5 if someone can think of a suitable objection to number 3.

number 4 could be a good option, but I don't think the Emperor of Byzantium should mix himself with his councelors. Keep the distances and advice your brother to marry her. That way, you still get a political ally, and your brother has proven himself trustworthy enough to be admitted into your inner circle.

AggonyDuck
08-31-2005, 20:35
I'll go with Epiphania, because I think it's rather important to have enough support at home. Wouldn't want people to conspire against you while you're busy on campaign or something like that. :bow:

King Henry V
08-31-2005, 21:22
I would go with Maria of the Alans. They would make good allies against the Turks and it seems dangerous to allow a courtier a foot in the door to the throneroom.

Geoffrey S
09-01-2005, 15:46
Maria sounds good; certainly a useful alliance if things start brewing in the eastern parts of the empire. Definitely not Epiphania, as obviously raising a noble above the rest won't help the somewhat strained relationship between Michael and the upper class. Issedo's tempting, but probably too bright and a potential risk later on.

Looking back on things, punishing Diogenes and Michael's mother was proably a bad idea. It strained relations with the senate, and the mother was excellent at administration. Vykke, is there any chance when the story is over you indicate what the best options were and potential results?

Vykke
09-01-2005, 17:16
I could probably go over a few of the more important choices.

Looks like you're gonna be chillin' with Maria. ~D SwordsMaster suggested in his response that you ask Andronicus to marry Epiphania instead. Let's have another vote to see if the rest of you think that's acceptable. SwordsMaster doesn't get another vote on it, I'm afraid.

(I might allow "suggestions" in posts like this to go to vote, if they're made in the first post and I don't think they're too unreasonable or out of Michael's character. No guarantees though. Arbitrary, aren't I? ~D )

Geoffrey S
09-01-2005, 17:21
Getting Andronicus to marry her is an excellent idea. At worst it may be seen as a snub to Epiphania's family, but not if Andronicus is publicly shown to be important when it comes to running the empire.

King Henry V
09-01-2005, 17:32
I think it could be dangerous to marry your brother to the daughter of a powrful courtier. Together they could plot your downfall.

DemonArchangel
09-01-2005, 20:00
The thing is, Michael's brother has already proven himself reliable, so he's not a threat. Bringing Epiphania's family onto the side of the Imperial Court by marrying Andronicus to her is an excellent idea, assuming that of course, Epiphania or her father doesn't plant any poisonous seeds in his mind. Of course, that risk is minor if Michael makes it clear that he is in charge.

Kraxis
09-01-2005, 22:26
Do not marry yourself, but let Andronicus marry the noblewoman.
It is a perfect tradeoff. Andronicus would feel more in on the stuff going on, and it would also be a great honour to the Iagaris famility to be married into the Imperial family. Especially since they haven't known of your personal aspirations in that department. A brother of the Emperor is a major step up compared to the other suitors.
And by not marrying yourself, you get a chance to get to know those with sincere intentions and of course the girls' personalities and backgrounds. As note this is a minefield and we need to step very carefully.

AntiochusIII
09-01-2005, 22:50
I agree with the others, Andronicus proves surprisingly reliable for a brother of the emperor (he declared loyalty to you against his/your mother and Diogenes, and warned you about situation in the senate rather than plotting with them against you quietly). And Epiphania's family would be pleased to join the Imperial family, anyway. The emperor's brother is second to the emperor himself in the Imperial family.

SwordsMaster
09-01-2005, 23:14
~D Ha! I should have inherited that byzantine throne with my cunning and my wisdom.... ~:cheers:

Vykke
09-01-2005, 23:48
It's a tough decision, but Maria looks like the best choice. These Catholics and pagans are too alien and you're not sure you can trust Germany or the Cumans, either. Maria, on the other hand, is Orthodox, and too timid to pose a threat. Also, the Alans were important allies before they were subjugated by the Khazars, and may become so again, especially with the potential for war in the east. You send Helena and Issedo away politely. Maria, for her part, seems to be overjoyed that she was picked, and takes up residence in one of your guest suites until the marriage can take place. Still, you wish you could take advantage of the opportunity Epiphania offers. After some consideration, you talk to Andronicus and explain to him your need to secure good relations with the upper class. He quickly agrees.

Andronicus proposes to Epiphania the next day. He told you later that she herself was a bit indecisive, but her father readily agreed to let his daughter marry him. He may not be an emperor like his brothers, but he's still a Ducas. He's not concerned about her hesitation, claiming that it's to be expected that she'd be a little taken aback by an offer from such an unexpected quarter. With the help of the eunuchs, you begin planning a dual wedding, suitable for an Emperor of Rome and the princess of Alania. Naturally, you begin spending more time with your chosen, and find her sweet-tempered and very quiet, using her words sparingly in private and almost never in public. Your youngest brother Constantine even puts in some appearances and helps now and then. He's become very reserved since the aborted wedding and seems to spend most of his time by himself these days. You worry about him, but you notice that Andronicus has taken an interest in cheering him up, so hopefully he'll pull out of it.

Of course, the demands of governing never cease. Another month goes by, with occasional reports from Psellus. Things are not going as well as he'd hoped. While he's suppressed the violence to a certain extent, there is still too much, and he's so far had little success in Christianizing the barbarians (though he didn't expect it to happen overnight). He says that the most pressing problem is that Turcomen continue to cross over from Seljuk territory, and they have nowhere to go but to drive Greeks off their land. He begs that you ask the Sultan to stop the emigration from his end, perhaps sweetening the deal with a gift. Once that happens, he believes, then the plundering will stop and there will be a good chance for peace. Then real pacification and conversion can begin for those who have already crossed over. After showing this letter to the Caesar, he agrees with the goal, but not with the method. "Bribing the Sultan will probably not work. Threaten with military force. Our army is large and with the threat of war over his shoulder, he would surely begin to rein in his nomads as he should have been doing all along."

Meanwhile, other disturbing reports have been coming in from Bulgaria. Banditry has been on the rise recently, with thugs collecting tolls from passersby and robbing tax collectors. One important tax shipment has gone missing completely. Even more worrying, Pecheneg raiders have begun slipping past the border-forts again and attacking villages. The Bulgarian theme, with many of its troops now serving in the Imperial army, has not been able to protect itself from this threat, though they've reported victory in a few minor skirmishes. Some accounts say that the highwaymen have been helping the Pechenegs by providing them hiding places after raids or when troops come by, while others say that groups of bandits have actually been seen protecting villages from attack. You speak to your available generals on the matter.

Manuel requests to be sent to deal with the problem himself. "I would like to take 3,000 each of our mercenary spearmen, light infantry, and those native Bulgarian archers, supported by 1,000 Khazar medium lancers. With this army, along with those serving the theme, I'll ferret out the bandits piecemeal. Once they've been eliminated, the Pechenegs won't have anywhere to hide and will be much easier to stop. I might find that tax shipment, too."

Bryennius would rather he was sent instead, with a more cavalry-heavy army. "Let me take 3,000 of the tagmata cavalry. With those men behind me, as well as a couple thousand each of Alan light cavalry, Bulgarian archers, and light infantry, and a handful of spearmen as backup, I'll have the maneuverability and strength to stop the Pechenegs as they come across the border. I'll let the thematic troops deal with the bandits."

John Ducas has a different suggestion. "Recall Crispinus the Frank from Bari. He's not doing anything there, and I'm told that smaller-scale tactics-heavy conflicts are what he does best - just the sort of fighting that will be taking place here. As for troops, let him take his kinsmen, the knights - he'd know how to use them best - and I recommend sending out a force mainly made up of Imperial regulars, with Alan light cavalry to back them up. We can let him decide the particulars when he gets here."

You face two decisions, one diplomatic and one strategic.

A - The Sultan:
1) Firmly request that he stop the Turcomen from migrating into Imperial territory, without including either a bribe or ultimatum. Your mother already asked him to and he didn't, but he might take a letter from you more seriously. It seems a bit unlikely to work, but you haven't got anything to lose.

2) Send a bribe. Gold can work wonders in the world of diplomacy. You'd have to really scrape the bottom of your treasury to come up with one of useful size, though. Plus, although you've never heard of Alp Arslan reneging on a deal, there's always the risk that he'll decide to pocket it and then do what he wants anyway.

3) Threaten to attack if he doesn't stop this nonsense. You're pretty sure his army is smaller than yours, so hopefully he'll comply. The risk, of course, is that he won't, forcing you to either back down or start very difficult and costly war.

B - The situation in Bulgaria:
1) Send Manuel. The forces he's requesting aren't critical, and you've come to value his military mind. Plus, he just might find those taxes. It sounds like his plan might take a while, though.

2) Send Bryennius. He wants to bring most of your best cavalry unit, but his plan promises a faster stop to the raiding. You don't know much about Bryennius yet either; this would be a good test of his mettle.

3) Send Crispinus. Ducas seems to think he'd do well, and if you follow your uncle's advice, he'd have a relatively tough and reliable army. You might prefer to keep those troops at home, though. You're not sure yet what strategy he'd take, but you can ask him to explain it before he leaves. You could always veto it.

4) Go yourself. This relatively small-scale campaign would be a good way to try your hand at military matters. You'll be choosing what forces to take yourself. NOTE: If you choose to go yourself, the wedding will have to be postponed until you get back.

Kraxis
09-02-2005, 00:24
ARGHHHH!!!! That Turkish situation is damn impossible.
I know that Alp Arslan was an honourable man, so perhaps the gift will make him reign in the tribes, but at the same time they were notoriously independant and they did end up killing him.

*Sigh*

A2 and B3
You need to be home to deal with the economy and the enentual results of the gift, be they good or bad. Meanwhile Crispinus will mak certain that the campaign in Bulgaria will be short. And Bari is hardly worth the effort at the moment.

DemonArchangel
09-02-2005, 01:03
Send Mr. Crispinus.

And for Arslan, maybe the situation could be solved instead by somehow getting one or more of the turkish nobles to attack Arslan, after all, they did value their independence.

Kraxis
09-02-2005, 01:18
But you don't want to make a choice? Yeah, I felt much like it too, it is simply a lottery there, and a bad one. Pick either plague, kolera or ebola.

Alexander the Pretty Good
09-02-2005, 03:16
A stinks. I don't like A.

A1 - you can't afford a bribe, and threat of violence will just make the Sultan less happy with you. With Psellus still working, maybe you can get lucky - if not, you still have that problem, but not the problem of an angry Sultan and angry Turcomen. Plus, a bribe might insult the Sultan. And the Sultan won't be so keen on attacking you if it means going through Turcomen territory if the Turcomen aren't so "controllable." I don't know. That's why A sucks.

B is easier to analyze, I think. I also think speed is necessary, to resolve the profit-damaging banditry and Pechenig incursions. You WILL lose money in the Turcoman strategy of asking nicely. So would a bribe. And I'm not convinced threats are good. So you need to stop losing money on two fronts. To do this, send Manuel. He will be more reliable than Bryennius, who also wants all your troops that you may need against the Turks. As a plus, those Bulgarian archers should be very effective in their homeland.

B1.

And there hasn't been too many easy choices, reading over this great thread. :book:

Vykke
09-02-2005, 03:31
Kraxis, if you hate the choices, you can suggest a new one under the rules I just established since you posted first. If it's something complicated (such as trying to turn the Turkish nobility against Alp Arslan, like DemonArchangel suggested) then it'd probably require several more choices of its own, to determine how you're going to attempt it. But you're not entirely hemmed in to the ones I gave you.

If it's just more information you want, then it's certainly reasonable to ask for more. I might or might not give it to you, but it's worth a shot. ;)

SwordsMaster
09-02-2005, 09:00
A1. No need for violence straight away.

B4. You´ll need some reputation as a commander to make your words and specially threats weight in the minds of others. I would suggest you take Crispinus with you though to have someone to back you up if you screw up.

Kraxis
09-02-2005, 13:07
In that case Vykke I propose a meeting with Arslan (and I can see the others are equally afraid of A), he is honourable and would likely meet you. Of course that will mean you can't go on campaign in Bulgaria.

King Henry V
09-02-2005, 15:29
A1 and B4
The marriage is not very urgent and it would be good if you got some military skill yourself and it would raise the soldiers' view of you. Going to war with the Turks when they are not in a weakened position could be very risky as was demonstrated with Myriokephalon about a century later.

Vykke
09-02-2005, 18:38
Okay, since A1 won, other than Kraxis' suggestion, we'll run it like any other choice, but you can choose between sending the letter and setting up a personal meeting with Arslan.

1) Send the letter asking him to stop. As said before, there's nothing to lose, and it doesn't remove you from the capital.

2) Try to set up a meeting with him. If it works, you'll be able to conduct more sophistocated diplomacy in person, and if you manage to make a favorable impression it might help relations with the Seljuks a lot. The downside is that if he agrees it would remove you from Constantinople for several weeks, and you might end up unable to reach a solution anyway.

SwordsMaster
09-02-2005, 18:49
2. If you want them well done, do them yourself. I wouldn't go into Turk territory for the meeting though, just out of precaution....

King Henry V
09-02-2005, 20:54
2. Definitely. A meeting place on the border would be best (a barge in the middle of a river perhaps?) and you would be able to discuss matters of state, ruler to ruler.

AntiochusIII
09-02-2005, 23:14
~;) Choice 2.

You are a courtier, naturally skilled in courtly business and diplomacy. Put it to use; reputation from a successful negotiation with the Turks is very useful in the diplomatic world - you will look like an emperor that is doing his job, and, if succeeded, do it well. Your army and your generals (or at least most of them) are loyal to you, at least for now, and would be willing to fight the emperor's wars for him. You are still young [historically, Michael actually ruled (incompetently) later only after Diogenes had lost the battle of Manzikert] and other wars can be fought later on. The Turks are a warlike people with clans traditions, and the Sultan will respect more an emperor who's respected him enough and brave enough to "show himself." In fact, will the Sultan be offended if he feels that you're not considering him worthy enough that you just send a letter and went on to another campaign instead, against "petty" raids by the "petty" nomads?

As for the Bulgarian situation, I'd rather send Manuel, your most loyal general. Time is not of a concern in Bulgaria, but rather how complete the job is done, and that tax shipment, if recovered, could at least help ease the financial troubles. I'd rather have Crispinus continues to hold on to Bari; an Italian foothold, if lost, is going to be very hard to get back. Bryennius' plan require too much force; it may affect your upcoming diplomacy with Alp Arslan if he realizes your empire's forces are occupied elsewhere. Just look at the modern world: North Korea goes on showing the middle finger on the US and Iran becomes a rising star on the world stage now that the US' hands are tied in Iraq. ~;)

Kraxis
09-03-2005, 22:58
Weeee! ~:)

AntiochusIII
09-03-2005, 23:29
Weeee! ~:) ~:confused:

Edit: (answering Kraxis' post below) Oh! I see. It's a great idea, really. ~:)

Kraxis
09-04-2005, 02:00
My suggestion has been selected. :balloon2:

GoreBag
09-05-2005, 03:28
Just found this thread today whilst idly browsing and read the whole thing. While a pseudo-Roman Emperor isn't exactly my kind of leader, there are a quite a few tough decisions to make..

For A, I go with Kraxis' suggestion - set up a meeting with the Seljuk Sultan and speak with him man to man. An agreement or bargain would help straighten out the sticky situation. Failing that...well, we can bribe a few Turcoman chiefs, I hope.

For B, I would say that Crispinus seems to be the best qualified, but he seems rather indisposed, and bringing him in from Italy would not be the quickest solution anyway. I vote to send Manuel - the marriage is a rather large stepping stone in an alliance that will be almost necessary if negotiations with Seljuks break down. As well, strengthening ties with the nobles is a nice way to keep the problems as limited as possible. It's killing two birds with one stone. The diplomatic meeting with the Sultan shouldn't take so long as to cause delays, should it?

Vykke
09-05-2005, 19:40
After considering the advice of both Michael Psellus and John Ducas on the Turkish issue, you decide that you're not really satisfied with either option. You just don't know the Sultan well enough to make a good decision. You need to speak to him in person, to get a feel for the man and his wants and needs. Then you can carry on some truly meaningful negotiation. You pen the letter yourself (with the help of a translator) and send it off to Baghdad with one of your best couriers.

With regards to the problems in Bulgaria, you trust the Caesar's advice. If he says Crispinus would be good for the job, he probably is. You recall him to the city to discuss his mission and strategy.

Meanwhile, your wedding-day approaches. It's scheduled for the tenth of May, but Crispinus runs into some inclement weather in the Adriatic, and one of Maria's brothers runs late as well, so you postpone it a day to give them a chance to be there. For his part, Crispinus arrives in the City only hours before the ceremony is supposed to start. You're told later that he insisted on being there for the beginning, even though he was still tired from the road and barely had time to clean himself (like most Franks living in the Empire, Crispinus has taken up the habit of regular bathing).

The dual wedding has you and Andronicus sitting together for quite a while before things get rolling. You spend some of it talking with the Patriarch, John Xiphilinus, and find him to be quite a learned man. He was an abbot before your father appointed him to his current position, and is well-versed in a variety of topics both sacred and secular. Rumor has it that he argued with your father against his promotion.

The ceremony flows smoothly, with short, rather meaningless speeches by yourself, Andronicus, and the Patriarch. The two brides enter together. They've been trying to become friends with one another over the last few weeks, you think, though Maria is so shy that truly getting to know her takes some real effort. You and Maria take your vows first, followed by your brother and Epiphania, after which hazel boughs are burned for luck in the old Roman tradition, their smoke rising to the distant ceiling and mingling with the bright light streaming in through the windows. You notice one of the eunuchs writing furiously through much of the proceedings. When you later ask him what he was writing, he tells you that he was asked by Constantine to record everything that happened in the wedding to send it to your mother.

After the ceremony, most of the dignitaries, officials, and lesser court members go, leaving the reception a private affair (by comparison), with only your family and honored guests, the Iagaris family, and a few of Maria's relatives attending. You dash off a few off-the-cuff poems, to the delight of the ladies, though you notice John Scylitzes rolling his eyes. You decide not to let his taste in poetry bother you on such a special day. Wanting to spend some time with your new wife, you set aside two days to spend with her and away from matters of governance. Much of it is spent in the gardens, often with Andronicus and Epiphania in tow. She seems to like talking with you about art, literature, and philosophy, and your discussions often leave the less-well-read Maria and Andronicus unable to keep up. The Caesar deals with most of the niggling management duties during this time, though to your surprise Constantine actually steps forward to help with a few of them.

Finally, a letter arrives from Baghdad carrying the Sultan's official seal. It is brought directly to you, and, eager to see his reply, you call an end to your little honeymoon of sorts a few hours earlier than you'd planned. You find it written in very good Greek - either the Sultan is fluent or he has a good translator. It seems that he's accepted your offer to meet in person. He asks that the meeting take place on the Byzantine bank of the Euphrates, northwest of Edessa, on the thirtieth of May.

Since you've already dipped back into matters of government, you meet with Crispinus to discuss his strategy. You decide to meet him in the generals' quarters rather than summoning him to the throne room, so you'll have easy access to the maps there. Manuel and Bryennius are there, too. "Your majesty," Crispinus greets you. "I hope you've enjoyed your time with your new wife." After you assure him that you have, he gets on to business. "I've listened to the plans of my colleagues, and I don't think either of them goes far enough. True, they might stop the raiding and put down the brigands, but the best solution against barbarians like these is an aggressive one. We should fight them on their land, not ours. The Pechenegs are nimble, but they've been hurt badly by the Cumans and by Diogenes' campaign a few yeas ago. Their territory is small and there aren't many of them. Having nowhere to retreat to, they'll have to fight, and since they'll almost assuredly lose in a straight battle, we'll be able to force them to sign a very favorable treaty or maybe even annex their land outright."

"What about the Uzes?" you ask, suppressing annoyance at the accidental praise of Diogenes. "They're friendly to the Pechenegs."

"And hardly more powerful," Crispinus replies. "I doubt they'd be willing to help the Pechenegs in this folly of theirs. Even if they do, we can defeat them too, it'd just be more trouble."

"And the brigands?"

Crispinus shrugs. "Like Bryennius suggested, the thematic troops can deal with them when they don't have to chase after nomads anymore. They're the main concern. I'd need a fair number of men, of course. Perhaps 7,000 mercenary spearmen, 4,000 light infantry and archers, and a few thousand regular infantry and lancers. Our knights could prove useful, too."

You can think of several options.

1. Let Crispinus go on the offensive. He's asking for a lot of troops, but it's past time someone dealt with the Pecheneg menace once and for all, and taking a hard stance against them could set an example for the Uzes, Turks, and Cumans.

2. He's asking for about a third of your forces; you can't afford that now. He can have a number of men more equivalent to what the other two generals asked for. If that means he has to fight defensively, then he'll just have to do so.

3. Send a few units now, then Crispinus with the rest of his requested army on the thirtieth. Hopefully Arslan wouldn't get word of the deployment until after your negotiations are finished. There's a good chance you'd end up losing another month's taxes from the theme, though, not to mention the Bulgarians' property losses.

AntiochusIII
09-05-2005, 19:58
I find the reactions of people in the court far more disturbing than the military choices for the Bulgarian campaign. Constantine, it seems, is clearly a threat in the future - from the reactions, he has no love for you and much for his mother. I suggest keeping an eye on him - closely. He is a co-emperor, unlike Andronicus, and may decide to take on the power himself like you did to your mother and Diogenes. And it is likely that some hurt is done by your seemingly carefree actions after the ceremony that decreases the respect of those supporting you. Anyone got any idea if a viable option should be added in dealing with the courtly matters?

As for the Bulgarian strategy...

Crispinus' first choice would be too much forces drawn away in the vital negotiation with Alp Arslan. Though certainly ruthless and effective, the timing isn't good.

The third choice would mean too much harm done and too much delay even if you can later go on the offensive with it. It may be a compromise of the first and second choice but in this matter you need to be more decisive.

I'd suggest the second choice, even if it means Crispinus can't get his way and couldn't launch an offensive. It is possible that we can return - this time perhaps even you yourself on the field - to strike at the raiders once again after the Turkish crisis is averted.

King Henry V
09-05-2005, 22:14
I vote 1. Send your troops to deal with these barbarians qucikly and ruthlessly. Should the worst come to the worst, many can be recalled if the Turks launch a full scale invasion.

Kraxis
09-05-2005, 22:50
Hmmm... Normally I would opt for #1, but this time it seems #2 is more prudent. The entire point with the campaign is to make Bulgaria stabel for the moment, a return to status quo, so you can turn to face the eventual fight with the Turks. Should you be able to strike a friendship with the Sultan, then it is time to deal with the raders on their own turf.

Btw, did Arslan really hold Baghdad?
In any case the meeting is going to go a long way towards satifying the Turkish minoritycomplex towards the 'big old' Empires.

SwordsMaster
09-05-2005, 22:56
to add to Antoiochus III insight:

Send Constantine with Crispinus to get him away from your mother for a while and let him make up his mind about his political future. When he comes back you will decide if he is a threat or not. On your side, intercept all messages from your mother's monastery to make sure there is no conspiracy going on....

I suggest number 1. They have to be crushed fast and with no hesitation. I would also suggest burning their villages and taking prisoners to ensure their decent behaviour. You need a show of force. Before the interview with the Sultan takes place.

GoreBag
09-06-2005, 05:26
Option number 2 for now. The situation with the sultan is more volatile. I'd rather hammer out some kind of an understanding before using mostly-needed troops to crush yet more horse people.

Let's get on with that meeting already. It's holding all my other decisions up.

AntiochusIII
09-06-2005, 22:22
Send Constantine with Crispinus to get him away from your mother for a while and let him make up his mind about his political future. When he comes back you will decide if he is a threat or not. On your side, intercept all messages from your mother's monastery to make sure there is no conspiracy going on....I'd rather not send him with Crispinus, however. The Frankish general is not one of the more loyal ones to you. If he's going with Manuel, or John Ducas, or even Andronicus - you'd trust them to hold strong to your loyalty, and probably change Constantine's mind. (Remember, the kid got quiet - pissed at you, most likely - since you threw the mother into the Convent.) If he goes with Crispinus like this, it is possible that he'll try to change Crispinus' loyalty, or disturb the general's campaign in some other ways. After all, he's an emperor too. Though I agree with the second action, probably try to send a spy into that monastery, too?

Oh yes, and I want to see opinions if setting Andronicus as temporary regent while you're away is a good idea or not, to prevent Constantine or some senator/courtier using Constantine stabbing you in the back while you're talking with Alp Arslan.

GoreBag
09-06-2005, 22:27
I was going to suggest something along those lines, but I figured that Constantine probably doesn't have anything planned just yet. He's still quite young; if anything happens, he'll probably be a puppet. My suggestion would be send some spy to keep a close eye on him, and when any opportunity arises, have him killed - Hunting trip, archery practice, choking on a pretzel...whatever, as long as it can't be traced back to me/us/Michael. That would send things into a downward spiral far too quickly.

SwordsMaster
09-06-2005, 23:53
I'd rather not send him with Crispinus, however. The Frankish general is not one of the more loyal ones to you. If he's going with Manuel, or John Ducas, or even Andronicus - you'd trust them to hold strong to your loyalty, and probably change Constantine's mind. (Remember, the kid got quiet - pissed at you, most likely - since you threw the mother into the Convent.) If he goes with Crispinus like this, it is possible that he'll try to change Crispinus' loyalty, or disturb the general's campaign in some other ways. After all, he's an emperor too. Though I agree with the second action, probably try to send a spy into that monastery, too?

Oh yes, and I want to see opinions if setting Andronicus as temporary regent while you're away is a good idea or not, to prevent Constantine or some senator/courtier using Constantine stabbing you in the back while you're talking with Alp Arslan.



Ok, I see your point. It should be enough with just intercepting mail and keeping vigilance on the people that go in and out. Actually, a question for Vykke: Hows the patriarch doing?

I agree about letting Andronicus rule while you are away, but I think it could be dangerous too. What if he closes the gates when you return? Take most of the remaining army with you, specially the good units to avoid treason.

About Constantine, he needs something to do. Let him handle the finances. He is, after all, well educated, and that'll keep him busy and away from the military, but still in a position when he makes himself useful. Maybe secretly make Ducas watch him to make sure he's straight.

AntiochusIII
09-07-2005, 00:12
Actually, a question for Vykke: Hows the patriarch doing?From what he gave us already (though more information is always better ~:) ), the Patriach seems to be a safe neutral, for now - he wouldn't probably tried hard to stop a coup against you but he shouldn't be conspiring against you either. Just don't give him a reason to. ~;)

I agree about letting Andronicus rule while you are away, but I think it could be dangerous too. What if he closes the gates when you return? Take most of the remaining army with you, specially the good units to avoid treason.My initial idea about this proposal is that Andronicus is a lesser risk to Constantine - the latter may be young, but you have enemies in the senate that will be on his side (as either mastermind or supporter) if he opposes you. Andronicus shows himself more loyal than most, at least; he also is less legitimate than you and Constantine (both emperors) and would gain less support from the court if he claims the throne. Of course, bringing the army with you could be useful if negotiations with Alp Arslan fails, as well. Though the Sultan may take offense at your "mobilization." IMO we should just gather up the army as you said and place them in temporary "peace control mission" in Cappadocia (to hurry the pacification process) while you and some elites (for display) go on to meet with the Turks.

About Constantine, he needs something to do. Let him handle the finances. He is, after all, well educated, and that'll keep him busy and away from the military, but still in a position when he makes himself useful. Maybe secretly make Ducas watch him to make sure he's straight.A nice idea indeed. He couldn't probably harm the already emptied treasury, could he? And what is the point to do that at all. ~:) Though Ducas probably shouldn't be brought into this since he is "in the family" and would be half-hearted at best in following your orders to spy another family member; a younger brother and co-emperor, nonetheless. It's not like the Diogenes situation when Romanus Diogenes practically threatens to usurp the Ducas power.

In the end, it's up to Vykke about what options he is going to give for us. (Am I right to presume you're a guy, Vykke?)

GoreBag
09-07-2005, 02:47
The treasury seems like too important a task for someone so dangerous. Pocketing some money here or there would allow him more autonomy than he should have.

Vykke
09-07-2005, 04:06
Kraxis: Arslan inherited Iraq and Persia from his family. By the time this thread started he also controlled Armenia and Georgia, and some of eastern Cappadocia and Syria, most of it taken from the Byzantines in Constantine X's reign.

NeonGod: IRL, Psellus' account says that Michael would have been adamantly opposed to Diogenes' blinding on moral grounds, even after they became mortal enemies (his subordinates did it anyway without asking him). Since the point of this thread is to let you choose your own path, I'm letting you do things the real Michael wouldn't have, but I don't think I'd let you go so far as to have Michael order his own brother's assassination. You'll have to think of other solutions to this potential problem. ~;)

Antiochus: Yup, I was a guy last I checked! Unfortunately, since Constantine's a fellow emperor, you don't really have much control over him. He can oversee what he wants when you're not around. As for bringing a large army, gathering it and marching it there would slow you down too much. Not all the troops are stationed in Constantinople, mostly for logistical reasons. Besides, I've already written up this post and I know NeonGod isn't the only one who wants to hurry up and get to the meeting. :dizzy2:

*************

You decide you have too many powerful enemies to expend so many troops on a relatively minor one. Crispinus grumbles a bit at the rejection of his plan, but wastes little time in organizing the army you've given him and coming up with an alternate, defense-oriented strategy that's similar to Bryennius' plan, but with more emphasis on using the thematic troops as border guards and scouts rather than as bandit-fighters. Instead, he'll use a few contingents of his own troops for that. He ends up taking about half as many men as he'd wanted.

In the meantime, you've got a meeting to attend. You spend several more days on minor matters of governance and organizing your retinue for the trip. You decide to bring with you about half of the money you'd scrounged for the bribe: having it there, on-hand, to tempt him with might prove beneficial. The rest you leave in the treasury, in case of emergencies. For your escort, you bring nine hundred Tagmata cavalry, with a handful of Varangians acting as mounted infantry to serve as personal bodyguards. At Manuel's request, you put his youngest brother Alexius in charge of your escort. You charge John Ducas with looking after the Empire in your absence and taking care of whatever things Constantine doesn't, which will most likely be a lot.

The procession leaves on schedule and crosses the Bosporus without incident. You haven't gone very far from the City in years, so watching the countryside pass by under your horses' hooves proves interesting. At first, people throng the road to see their Emperor passing by, in all shades of wealth and poverty, and they bow respectfully as you come into view. As you move into the interior, the area becomes more rural, and the gawkers less common. Soon you're in the Anatolian highlands, and, after passing a stretch of land devoted to orchards, you find yourself dwarfed by fields stretching in every direction, raising grains and all manner of livestock. "You know, your majesty... in a way, this is the heart of the Empire," says Alexius one day as you're walking past a barley farm, once he's realized that you're willing to let him speak relatively freely now and then. "True, Constantinople is the intellectual heart, but this is where our food comes from. Without that, all the intellect in the world is to no avail."

"Perhaps neither is the heart," you say. "If we're going to divide our Empire into fleshy organs, then certainly the City is the mind, and this would be the stomach."

"If neither of those is the heart, then, what is?" he says, amused. "Nicaea? It is where Christendom banished the darkness of heresy. Though if anything, I might be inclined to say that makes it the soul."

"No, it is our Roman heritage that provides us our strength and courage. No matter what the political maps say, Rome is the heart of our Empire."

Alexius doesn't seem to be able to think of a witty response to that, and the conversations drops.

As you continue east, the impact of the Turkish incursions becomes more evident. There seem to be a number of dispossessed people traveling the roads, looking for a new place to make their homes. They dutifully bow and move out of your way, but their postures contain none of the admiration shown in the western provinces. Some of the families are Turkish, and you note that they keep a wide berth from the Greek and Armenian pilgrims. A Cappadocian thematic unit appears after a while and accompanies you to Caesarea. You note that some of those men are Turks too, though the great majority are of a non-barbarian ethnicity.

Caesarea is the capital of Cappadocia and where Psellus has set up his base of operations. A decade ago, it was a thriving city built around a great fortress-cathedral. However, the place was plundered and razed by soldiers of the Seljuk in one of his incursions toward the end of your father's reign, and now the damaged cathedral and many empty houses are a testament to the strength and ferocity of Alp Arslan. You've been making good time, so you decide to rest here for a day and take a look at what Psellus has been doing. He greets you warmly, but soon Nicephorus Botaniates enters, and the talk turns to grim politics.

"I still believe my mission is ultimately achievable," Psellus says, "but not under current conditions. Tensions are high between the Turks and native Greeks and Armenians, and the people here resent us for allowing these foreigners to settle on their land. Naturally, I've tried to minimize the damage by assisting the refugees where possible and trying to compensate them to some degree for their losses, but it's administratively and financially very challenging, to the point of impossibility, as long as more Turcomen keep coming in and displacing people. In addition, I think that the continuous addition of new Turks is the main factor working against my civilizing efforts. It seems like as soon as I get one tribe to agree to settle down peacefully, a new, unruly one appears and attacks them or befriends them, and either way they quickly resume their old ways."

"I noticed that there were some Turks among the troops that saw us in," you tell them.

"Yes, sire, that's one tactic we've been trying," says Botaniates, a man with a waist of unseemly size but with confident, decisive movements. "We've been using the typical thema agreement to give land grants to families willing to abide by their end of the bargain - their sons serve in our armies, and we allow them to live on our land. It gives us both what we want. Not many have taken us up on it yet, though, because a lot of them would rather take land from civilians for free and continue to live by their own rules. Our troops are still trying to force that mentality out of them. Also, Psellus has insisted that they convert first."

"A sensible precaution," Psellus interjects, beetling his grayed brow.

"Regardless," Botaniates continues, "I've matched wits with the Sultan on the battlefield before. If I may presume to advise you, your eminence, you would do well not to underestimate him."

You assure them that, God willing, you and the Sultan will reach an acceptable agreement, and make a note to come through here on the way home and help them sort out their policies.

Back on the road again, you find that as you head further east there's fewer signs of patrols. Imperial control in Lycandos seems to be very shaky, and much of the countryside depopulated, abandoned by Greeks because of Turkish incursion, and by Turks because the terrain is too rough for their taste and the pickings are fatter elsewhere. Still, scouts report seeing some Turks occasionally, though too many seem to be warriors. You order your retinue to slow down a bit and move in a tighter formation.

One cloudy morning, after you've been riding for two hours and are passing between two hills, the thunder of hoofbeats behind you turns you. Oksandr, the captain of your Varangians, points up the hill on the north. "My lord, the Turks come!"

You see several of your outriders cresting the hill and charging for the safety of the main force, being chased by Turkish horsemen. While you watch them come, trying to guess their numbers, Oksandr orders the Varangians to form up in a defensive circle around you. It's hard to be sure, but there's several hundred Turks on the hill, at least. The Tagmata cavalry begin to rally around your position as well.

Alexius rides up, his horse in a lather. "Sire, outriders report more on the other side of the south hill as well. Perhaps three or four hundred. I think they intended to hit us from both sides, but the ones to the north charged prematurely."

As you watch, the Turks on the north hill veer away from the outriders and toward the baggage train, which trails to the west, behind your retinue. "They want the gold," ventures Oksandr. "Let us leave it and go forward."

"No!" objects Alexius. "We shouldn't have to undergo that humiliation. Let us protect it! We can bring it up the south hill before the second group gets there. The southern force is still several minutes away."

"Silence!" you order. You must decide what to do, and fast. If you're held up here for more than a day or two, you might be late for the meeting.

1. Leave the baggage train and rush your men forward (east) and out of the space between the two hills. Most likely, you could then continue to the Euphrates without further incident.

2. Attempt to pull the baggage up the southern hill before the Turks on that side get there. From there, you should be able to defend it easily.

3. Regroup around the baggage train and perform a fighting withdrawal from between the two hills. Once they can no longer use the high ground, they will face much stiffer opposition.

Azi Tohak
09-07-2005, 04:56
Must keep money! Must... keep money...!

I say 2 if the train is capable of moving up the hills without getting stuck. Speed doesn't matter as much to me as just moving the darned things. 3 if not.

For my final answer (why does that sound dorky?) I go with 2. A stiff charge up the hill (ooo... tired) from a unit of heavy Cav should do fine to clear the Turks.

Sure, the Turks want the cash, but if it is half your treasury... I think you HAVE to keep it. And its not like you don't outnumber the Turks by a lot anyway. Sure, maybe they're faster, but I REALLY hope you have some quality archers amongst your Tagmata. If so, I don't think you have much to worry about from raiders. You are the Emperor afterall, and your personal escorts should be some tough, well armored men. (Is that sexist? Probably...)

Azi

AntiochusIII
09-07-2005, 05:40
Hehe, Vykke, I'm just making sure I'm not a sexist by presuming everybody in a wargaming forum is a guy, you know... ~D

Anyway, the real game finally starts!

I had my concerns long ago about Turkish displacement of the locals, and my, how right I'm turning out to be! We should've brought our armies here and wipe the Turks out long ago. Anyway, if the past couldn't be changed then let's change the future.

You have as your second-in-command one of the finest men the Empire has to offer in this time and age; Alexius Comnenus, future emperor of the Comneni dynasty. However, the Comneni are staunch allies of the Ducas family (and the other way around, as well), and Alexius is presumably more-or-less loyal and very skilled. Listen to his advice: take the second choice.

The first would be a diplomatic and economic disaster. Arrogant Turks!

The third would be a waste of critical moment - why suffer a sure disadvantage at the chance of possible advantage?

Indeed, I'd suggest that, if possible (read: reasonable/favourable), make sure the Turks suffer as much as possible for this show of extreme arrogance. It would go a long way to ensure your military reputation in the Eastern frontier. It seems, to me, that you need one now.

GoreBag
09-07-2005, 05:49
I agree. Option 2 is the way to go; it's time to kick some ass. Meeting with the sultan had better be worth this trouble.

A pity about Constantine, though. Damn brat...

AntiochusIII
09-07-2005, 06:00
A pity about Constantine, though. Damn brat...Yup. Little momma-loving boy. Unworthy of the imperial throne. :mean:

I'm thinking about raising Andronicus' status high in your service (but NEVER co-emperor) to the point where he feels that Constantine has become the obstacle for him to exercise the power his loving elder brother gives him in gratitude of his loyal service. :evilgrin:

GoreBag
09-07-2005, 06:59
There's a thought. I was thinking of framing him for something...not necessarily treason, but something else which would cause him to lose a considerable deal of support...what's the Byzantine stance on male homosexuality?

Ahh...he's just a boy. Your idea is probably best.

SwordsMaster
09-07-2005, 09:50
number 2 is the way to go. Give your Varangians something to do. They'll get fat walking all day around the palace and all. Constantine will have to wait till you get back.... MAybe you could watch him secretly and as I said earlier watch his letters and bribe a few of his servants to watch him too...

DemonArchangel
09-07-2005, 21:01
What needs to be done to Constantine:
You need to kill him as soon as possible. Constantine is a huge threat to your reign, so the moment you come back, you need to kill Constantine and anyone in the Senate that supports Constantine. Since you have the support of your army, getting rid of Constantine can be done fairly easily.

What you need to do to the Turkish Raiders:
Own them. Also, note that this attack might be a scheme by Arslan to kill you, so watch out for poison dipped arrows. That and grab a shield and throw on some armor, before you turn into Julian the Apostate.

What you need to do with Arslan:
Crush him utterly, as soon as possible. In fact, send for your army ASAP. First though, try to get something out of him from the negotiations if you can.

What you need to do with the Turkish people:
Resettle them on the opposite corner of the empire, say in Italy. That'll give the Normans something to chew on. Let them practice their own religion as well. No reason to not let them.

What to do about Maria:
Cheat on her with Epiphania. She's much more your type than Maria is. If either of them act up later, blind them.

Alexander the Pretty Good
09-07-2005, 22:07
That's typically extreme of you, DA. ~D

I'd say two, because that money is important! Half the reason you came, even. And kicking some Turcomen (or Turks, whatever) around will give you another leverage at the bargaining table.

As far as Maria and Epiphania and the other princesses go, I wish we could have seen a few pics before a desicion was made... :wiseguy:

AntiochusIII
09-07-2005, 22:31
However Vykke had made a point that Michael was not an extreme person - quite a mild scholarly coward, in fact. Indeed, we've already stepped far from the historical pathetic Michael Ducas that occupied the throne of Constantinople for nothing, even though we haven't even succeeded in anything real yet. If you're controlling men like Alexius Comnenus or even Romanus Diogenes (soldiers, basically...) it would be logical to give such extreme choices for us "players" to choose.

And hey, Maria is (according to definition Vykke gave us) a sweet, shy girl. She'll probably be ineffective but it's better than having a whore (to the mods: is that considered a bad word here? If yes, please feel free to edit my post - and remove this comment to) as an empress or another Theodora.

To DA: I advocated entering war early on but for now it's not a wise thing to do. Others have chosen a more pacifist approach and it makes for interesting things now :)

To Vykke: is there any historical pics for those girls you featured in this thread? I know that most of the actual characters here are real, some have, in fact, gone on to become emperors. So I wonder if such is the case for the princesses.

Vykke
09-08-2005, 05:34
Hehe, I thought you guys would appreciate a tactical decision, even a relatively quick-and-easy one like this.

Congratulations, DA. I have now started thinking of you as "Sulla Jr." ~D

I'm almost ashamed to admit it, but I made up all the princesses except Maria. Given the time I had available for research, the only German princess of the period that I could find was already married - to Solomon of Hungary, as I mentioned - and I couldn't find any references to Cuman princesses at all, much less ones from the right period (I do know they married into the nobility of neighboring peoples, but no one seems to have bothered writing down their names!). Maria is the girl Michael married IRL, though I've seen conflicting accounts on whether she was Alan or Georgian. For purposes of this thread, though, she's Alan. I don't have any pictures, but Michael Psellus described her as "pre-eminent in virtue and beauty." Take that how you will. ~;)

********

You immediately discard the Varangian's suggestion. You can't go around throwing away money to highwaymen like this. Instead, you yell at Alexius, "Make it happen!" He immediately begins organizing the maneuver with the lieutenants, with the group's servants and some of the soldiers helping haul the heavy baggage up the slope. It's a grueling ascent. With your top-notch and unburdened mount, it's an easy climb for you, but the men assigned to deal with the wagons and draft animals work up a heavy sweat, with Alexius egging them on. When the tagmata in front crest the hill, they shout and immediately begin exchanging arrow fire with an unseen enemy. As you reach the top yourself, you see that there is a screen of Turks already there, though they are swiftly withdrawing from your heavily-armored troops. A larger mass of Turks is at the foot of the hill, though when they see their cavalry screen flee, they stop advancing.

"Sire." Oksandr gets your attention and points back to the north, where that band of Turks, apparently under the command of a very impetuous leader, has begun climbing the hill after you.

"Let your men fire at will," you tell the lieutenant commanding the north side. You don't know his name, which bothers you a bit since you pride yourself on being able to learn and remember the names of your men, though you honestly can't fault yourself for not knowing the name of every lieutenant in the army. Regardless, his men release their shafts expertly, exchanging some more arrow fire with the Turks, who quickly realize that they've lost the tactical advantage because of their bungled pincer attack, and they can't win without it. Both bands retreat with minor losses. You consider pursuit, but catching them would be problematic at best, and you can't bear the delay. Maybe you can punish them later.

You move cautiously through the rest of the journey, though the Turcomen cause you no more trouble.

You come across the Euphrates late in the day on the twenty-ninth. Scouts you send ahead report that Arslan is already at the meeting place with a small force of men, though they say that the shallowness of the privies indicate that he hasn't been there very long. When you see their encampment yourself, you at first question whether your scouts have found the right group of Turks, because no pavilion seems to be large and opulent enough to house a leader as powerful as the Sultan. Still, as you draw closer you find that the largest tent - little bigger than what a tribal chieftain would own - is flying a flag depicting the white silhouette of a two-faced angel on a blue field, over which is superimposed a black bow and arrow. This is the standard of the Great Seljuk.

In an initial discussion between emissaries, it's made known that Arslan would rather meet with you tomorrow morning, once you've had time to rest. Taking him up on his offer, you and your men make camp a few hundred yards upriver from the Turkish contingent. This far north and west, the Euphrates is a fairly narrow and fast-moving river winding between gently rolling hills. Your servants set up your pavilion near its bank in time for you to recieve Paulus, your ambassador to Baghdad, who traveled here with the Sultan. You find him dressed up in baggy white clothes, more like an Arab than a Greek, though he still keeps his beard trimmed in the Greek style. He presents his opinion of the Sultan: "Your majesty, although I am, of course, not allowed to be present when he is making his major decisions, I believe that he is, at heart, an honorable man. Any agreement you reach with him will probably be followed."

"What of the attack on our procession?" you ask. At his look of confusion, you explain to him what happened a few days ago.

"Sire, I'm sure that was not his doing," Paulus states confidently. "If he had discreetly ordered such a thing, which I do not believe he would have, then his men would not have executed the attack in such a clumsy fashion. The Sultan has a number of capable men under his command, and would not send an incompetent to carry out such a duty."

"So you believe the Turcomen act without orders from their ruler, then?"

"That seems the most likely explanation to me, your majesty. I have gotten the impression from the court dealings in Baghdad that the Sultan does not have as strong a grip as he would like on those tribes that retain a nomadic lifestyle."

After digesting this for a moment, you ask him one more question: "What do you expect from him in our meeting?"

Paulus considers this. "Alsp Arslan is an honorific that means 'Valiant Lion.' On the battlefield, he is wily, but in diplomacy, he is more straightforward. He has no dislike for you, your majesty, though probably no love, either. He tends toward honesty and will expect the same in return."

After dismissing him and tucking yourself in, your mind starts playing with images of lions wearing turbans, leading to peculiar dreams when sleep finally takes you.

The meeting takes place in a tent loaned by yourself, halfway between the two camps. You discuss things through your emissaries, and decide that each party will be allowed to bring one translator and one bodyguard. In your case, this will be Paulus and Oksandr. Your servants, after pitching the tent, leave it to the two leaders and their accompanying retainers. Considering his reputation as a warrior, you're surprised to find that Alp Arslan is only of average height, though he has a regal bearing and his long Turkish moustaches lend him a certain Eastern majesty. He appears to be in his mid thirties. His bodyguard is a large Turk carrying a sabre; his translator appears to be Persian. Both look at him with obvious respect.

"Well met, Michael Ducas of Rome," he greets you through his translator, who speaks Greek with an archaic accent. "You have requested to speak with me, and I have come. What does my illustrious neighbor wish to discuss?"

It seems that it's largely up to you to set the tone for the meeting.

1. Start off with some polite conversation. Try to impress him with your good manners and a discrete display of your learning before you start discussing the important things.

2. Try to get to know him personally. Tell him a bit about yourself and try to get him to return the favor. Try to get on friendly terms with him. Maybe you can establish a rapport.

3. Present the issue at hand: Turcoman immigration. Small talk would only waste time and might irritate him.

4. Tell him about the attack made on your way here, and ask that he apologize on behalf of his countrymen. He should take responsibility for their actions, and maybe you can guilt him into giving you favorable terms.

Azi Tohak
09-08-2005, 06:42
(If I might be so bold Vykke, I would like to say I love your style of writing. You do not dumb down what you mean, and I think you have a gift for setting the mood by describing the surroundings and personages you describe. Well done!)

Back to the matter at hand... I think the list version will work the best for me here.

1. He is a Turk afterall, but he is scarcely from the steppes. It is the custom amongst Arabs (has been for centuries, now and back then) to start with polite conversation first. But, I believe this is the way to go. You do have time to waste afterall (how long can this possibly take? maybe half a hour?). Growing up in a 'civilized' court (compared to what his recent ancestors had I am sure) would have given him an appreciation for learning and polite conversation, even if he has no love for it. He also started out very formally, so I believe that would lead him to expect some 'fluffy conversation' to start with as well.

2. Great idea! But too darned early! A personal rapport with this man would do wonders for both empires, and would cause every other empire and petty-princedom in the region to quake. You are Emperor of a body that has been around for thousands of year. Everyone knows this. Alp is Sultan of a vibrant and powerful nation himself. I think a personal rapport is a dream... but perhaps not too unreasonable?

3. If he wants to get right to buisness (as this topic implies you do first), I believe that he will take it down this path ASAP (well... as soon as polite in his own mind I am sure). He is a soldier, but he is also a statesman. He has to know why you are here, and I believe he will get to it when he is fully ready.

4. NO! Bad Manuel! Bad! Don't go around trying to force a soldier to do something. That doesn't work well for anyone. Maybe he did order it, maybe not, but if he did, I am sure he will be shamed by its failure, and would not like you to rub it in his face. Guilt him? HA! That doesn't work with me, so I can only imagine how that would work for a man with more steel in his spine than I have.

I pick 1. Nice, easy way to begin what could be a crucial conversation. You command an Empire... but he has been around longer (if not by much...) at the helm of his own state. Let seniority have its due. There is no need to be servile or obseqious, but don't be rude, regardless.

And Vykke, I am very interested in how you describe a conversation between a couple of heads (literally!) of state. This should be interesting. I am excited.

Azi

GoreBag
09-08-2005, 07:36
As much as option number 2 seems like it could have great potential, I think option 3 is the way to go. It is the most forthcoming. After some kind of a resolution is found, I would then proceed with number 2. I would try to boil the whole thing down as a "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" situation - I'm sure he has issues aplenty with his unruly chieftains as well.

As for details, I think a compromise coupled with a decree that any more attacks upon Imperial soil be both a declaration of war on the Byzantines and autonomy from the rest of the Sultanate. This would wash the Sultan's hands of any problems arising when Imperial troops are sent to crush the offending tribe.

As for the refugees...well, in a perfect world, I'd promise them fertile lands in Sicily - that's where I think we should go to war. Peace on the home front will make this possible.

To recap, then, action number 3. If possible, during or after the conversation, number 2 would be a wonderful bonus.

Oh, and if things go well, give his ambassador at Constantinople a nicer suite.

Geoffrey S
09-08-2005, 15:24
I don't see why 1 and 3 can't go together; basically, general politeness and relevant smalltalk. Politeness is a must, but the Sultan has also made it clear in his opening statement that he's there for business. If a combination isn't possible I'd go for 3, but definitely in a polite way.

2 sounds great, but both leaders need to know they can trust and respect each other before such things are possible, probably particularly in the case of the Sultan. 4 is a bad move.

And slightly OT, this is an excellent story Vykke! Lots of interesting choices, and a well written account which evokes the feel of the times.

Kraxis
09-08-2005, 18:01
Yes, Vykke, who are you? What do you do? You are great at setting the mood. I'm more into the technical aspects of my writings, and always end up in the usual sinkhole of too many facts and too much elaboration, and too little personality.

Anyway, for a professional coutier as Michael it should prove no problem to combine 1 and 3, basically smalltalking his way into the issue before Arslan knowns it. In any case Azi argues correctly that Arslan himself would soon force the issue should he wish to have a blunt discussion. But at the same time he knows the conventions and traditions for such meetings, and if he forces his way ahead he might get a bad rep, something he is certainly not looking for (again we are back at the minoritycomplex). I believe he will follow Michael's courtly talk for a while.

So #1!!!!

GoreBag
09-08-2005, 18:59
I have my hunches that Vykke is a DM of some kind.

Kraxis
09-08-2005, 20:50
I have my hunches that Vykke is a DM of some kind.
DM???

Azi Tohak
09-08-2005, 21:32
DM = Dungeon Master. For example, the controller of a game of Dungeons and Dragons. That is my standard interpretation anyway.

Not that I play D&D... of course... ahem... moving on... :embarassed:

Combining 1 & 3 would be great, but I only wanted to pick one of the list that Vykke gave us. And to be honest... I have no idea how you would respond by including small talk (say about the weather) and the Turcoman harrassment.

"My dear Sultan, what a pleasure to meet you. Isn't it nice that it is not raining Turoman marauders today?"

Now THAT is a great way to start a conversation... rather similar to starting a conversation with a woman:

"It sure is sunny out here today. Mind if I take shade under your boobies?"

At least no one has said 4. Yet....

Azi

AntiochusIII
09-08-2005, 22:47
"My dear Sultan, what a pleasure to meet you. Isn't it nice that it is not raining Turoman marauders today?"Na, for me must be, "greetings, honourable Sultan, it is an honour of both nations that we have agreed to meet with each other today (blah blah blah) Hmm? What's that? About my travels? Well, it is a fine journey indeed apart from a few Turkish marauders along the way..."

~D

Anyway, back to business. As others have said, the combination of 1 and 3 would be the way to go. Though if you can go in specifics, I'd suggest not to let Michael spend too much time small-talking and rather go on business in a more-or-less honest (only try to lie once we know of the measure of Alp Arslan's intelligence in diplomacy) and courteous manner once the initial "greetings, how do you do?" part and a few small talks are finished (occasionally praise him or act in a courteous behavior during the negotiation would be better). Indeed, if the meeting turns out to be agreeable then start to build a rapport with him, as in choice 2. Suggest something like how the alliance would enhance both nation's central authority (it's Alp Arslan's only clear weakness, and he would appreciate Byzantine support) and allow for both empires to strengthen.

However, if only one choice is available, then I'll go with choice 3, courteously.

Edit: Oh, and about Maria, it seems we made the right choice - choosing a virtuous and beautiful girl (according to Psellus, who may as well has no taste in women whatsoever ~;) ) and a real one at that. Indeed, there is nothing to apologize on Vykke's part, ancient history is often lacking when it comes to records of women - even royal ones.

GoreBag
09-09-2005, 05:09
DM = Dungeon Master. For example, the controller of a game of Dungeons and Dragons. That is my standard interpretation anyway.

Not that I play D&D... of course... ahem... moving on... :embarassed:

Oh, come on. Own up.

SwordsMaster
09-09-2005, 07:35
Go with 1. It doesnt compromise you to anything. Noone can be mad at you for being polite...

Vykke
09-09-2005, 08:36
No problem with going with 3 in a reasonably courteous fashion, that's really what I had in mind.


"My dear Sultan, what a pleasure to meet you. Isn't it nice that it is not raining Turoman marauders today?"

If only sarcasm was an effective persuasion tool. Diplomacy would be heaps of fun! ~D

Who am I? Just some guy from Dallas who happens to like history. Similar deal to most people here, I'd bet. I'm a veterinary technician now, though I don't really consider it my life's calling or anything. In this thread, I'm still trying to figure out the right mix of strict historical correctness vs. literary detail. A lot of the mood-enhancing details I throw out are just educated (or uneducated) guesses on my part. (Is the Euphrates really narrower and faster-moving in northwest Syria? Beats me, but it seems likely, that's the way rivers usually are in hillier terrain... etc.) Sooner or later I'm sure I'll produce one that's flat-out wrong and someone will catch me on it. ~;)

I've dabbled in tabletop RPGs, even DMed a few times, though I never joined a regular gaming group.

In case any of you are confused about this, the word "Turcoman" can mean several things, but in this historical context, the word refers to Turks who came with the Seljuks in their invasion of the middle east, but did not settle down as aristocracy like their cousins and retained a tribal nomadic lifestyle semi-independent from the Seljuk state. I don't know if they're related to the people of modern Turkmenistan, but it doesn't seem impossible.

Anyway, on with the thread!

**********

Thinking on what Paulus told you, you decide that he's probably the type who'd rather get to the point of things. You're not too averse to the idea yourself. Of course, at least a little bit of diplomatic fluff is necessary.

"Alp Arslan of the Great Seljuk Empire, I greet you and welcome you to Roman soil. I'm afraid my hospitality is not fit for a guest of your stature, but we must make do with what is available." After the Sultan indicates that the accomodations are adequate, you continue. "As I'm sure you suspect, I asked you here to discuss matters of importance between our two thrones, and I hope you won't feel me too straightforward if I jump to it straight away. The matter weighs heavily on my mind, which will be greatly eased once we have worked out a solution together."

The Sultan nods. "Then by all means, I shall see what I can do to put your mind at rest." He doesn't appear put off by the haste.

"My empire has, in recent years, seen large numbers of your steppe-cousins crossing over into her eastern provinces. In Cappadocia and Cilicia, in particular, the numbers have been large. While, in a perfect world, we would welcome the Turcoman, the actual situation there is difficult. The immigrants need food and land, which are not in supply plentiful enough to suit their needs. As the these immigrants are coming from our border with your nation, and are therefore your subjects, I would ask that you dissuade them from their zeal to inhabit Roman land."

Alp Arslan waits for several long moments before replying, and at first you think that Paulus didn't translate properly and he didn't understand you. When he speaks, though, you realize that he was just choosing his words carefully. "Your majesty," he says, "I am sorry for the trouble my kinsmen have caused you. However, you must understand that we are an expansionist people. We need new lands to explore and inhabit. If any other civilization can understand that necessity, it must be you, our Roman neighbors, who were driven to conquer half of the world."

A bit disturbed by this polite bluntness, you think quickly. "We lead two great nations. We have much we can offer each other. Surely we can work out an solution that will benefit both parties."

"Though it pains me to say so," replies the Sultan, after another pause for interpretation and thought, "the Turcomen are an unruly subset of my people, who do not always listen to the advice of their betters. Land on which to make new homes is the commodity they desire above all, and that need must be met somewhere. Your provinces of Cappadocia, Cilicia, and Syria have been in Muslim possession before, and indeed some still have sizeable populations of them. My suggestion is that you cede these provinces to my authority. With this land to give the Turcoman chiefs, I will be able to keep them content. Should any of them desire to continue west to take more than their fair share, I will gladly lend the assistance of my army to stop those grasping ingrates from troubling your Empire further. Furthermore, I would consider such a gesture to be an indication of trust, and would be pleased to sign a treaty of friendship formalizing the peaceful relations between our two Empires."

Now it's your turn to spend some time thinking about this. Quite a few things come to mind.

1. Accept the terms. You'd bring peace to your eastern border, a powerful ally, and a stop to the immigration in one stroke of the pen. The court currently tends toward pacifism, so they probably wouldn't be so bothered by it if you spin it as a peace initiative.

2. He's asking too much. Refuse to accept those terms, instead offering a similar agreement for a smaller exchange of land. You might not be able to get that alliance out of a less favorable deal, though.
a. Offer him Syria only. This includes Antioch.
b. Offer him Cappadocia and Syria, but keep Cilicia in the Empire.
c. Offer him Syria and Cilicia, but refuse to give up Cappadocia.

3. You can live with giving up that territory, but not to an empire as powerful and potentially dangerous as the Seljuks. Offer to create a petty state on your border encompassing some of these lands. The Turcoman tribes will rule it themselves. This frees you both from their bothersome presence.

4. Giving up land is out of the question. His current offer is moot, but maybe you can keep talking to him and see if he seems receptive to any alternatives. Maybe you can fall back on the bribe or threats that you were originally considering.

5. Just suggesting that you give Roman territory to him is insulting. There is no further need to continue speaking with this arrogant louse.

SwordsMaster
09-09-2005, 09:39
Hmm... tough one. How about recruiting in those areas? Would it trouble your economy much? What is worse (economically) to fight the marauders or give up the land?

Provisionally I would go with 1, but try to squeeze as much out of it as possible. Say half of the first year's taxes from those areas, trade rights with all Turkish territories, and support against the normans in Sicily.

See, personally I think the empire should look towards Europe more than towards Asia, but on the other hand that is a lot of territory he is demanding.

So I might change my decision if others think of better ways of dealing with it.

Maybe go with number 4 and see what can we pullout...

Actually, what do we know about the turkish army?

Kraxis
09-09-2005, 11:28
It is indeed a tough one... Had it been anybody but Alp Arslan I would never have considered giving up land, but this is a most problematic situation. It is not likely that he would break his agreement with you, but what about the future? His successors might not hold the agreement to a similar standard.
Cappadocia is rather important for your horsebreeding and Syria is important in tradeterms (Antioch is a most important city for you).
The Seljuks would be greatly strengthened by his terms. So #1 is out, the same goes for #2 as it is in effect a bad compromise, you lose important land and get nothing solid in it's stead.

#3 Is to some extent a good compromise, but you will not get much goodwill for abandoning the Greeks and christians there to the more uncivilized Turcomans. Also that state is bound to end up as a point of contention, again with you weakened (though the Seljuks not strengthened). Lastly, the Turcomans are likely to feel some kinship with the Seljuk state and it is not unlikely that they will join in an alliance at some point.
I don't like that at all...

#4 This one sound good. You play for time and info, so as to see what else can be done. Also this way you can use your superior diplomatic skills and your knowledge of history *cough-thefallofthewesternempire-cough*.

#5 Ehhh... No. Lets just go home and disband the army, it is cheaper and takes less time and blood, but the result is the same. This would lead to war sooner or later, sooner I think. And with the army partly away in Bulgaria and not up to specs this is a most unfortunate turn of events.

So I go with #4.

Vykke
09-09-2005, 17:03
Sure, more info is reasonable.

About the options: Picking #2 doesn't necessarily mean you won't get an alliance, but it's not guaranteed. The terms will depend on the capacity of your army to intimidate him, whether he's bluffing and is really willing to accept less, Michael's diplomatic ability... etc. If you pick #4 and can't find another acceptable deal, he'll probably let you backtrack and accept his proposal, though it might cost you some face.

I assumed that if you wanted to bargain with him, it would be to reduce the land you're handing over, but it's reasonable to try to get other concessions from him instead. Unless you change your mind in your reply to this post, I'll consider that a "suggestion" from you, SwordsMaster.

You're not completely sure about the Sultan's army, but you think it numbers about 40,000. Unlike your empire, however, his still has significant recruiting power among the nobility, etc. (while your finances are pretty much tapped out). You roughly guess that he might be able to recruit another 20,000 in case of war, though he may have resources you're not aware of, in which case the number would be higher. Light infantry and cavalry predominate, though there's a strong core of heavier cavalry types as well. The Seljuk army gave a very good showing of itself against your father's troops in Armenia and Cappadocia.

About the provinces in question: You only own about 1/3 of Syria (the Seljuks already have the rest), though you still have Antioch, which, as Kraxis mentioned, is quite wealthy and a hub of trade between the east and west. Though there's some Greek-speaking people there, the population of Syria is mostly Arab. Consequently, it isn't considered an important recruiting area. Cilicia is populated mostly by Armenians at this point in history, with some Muslims still around too. It's supplied many troops for Imperial armies in the past, though some question the loyalty of the Armenian people. Some of it is quite agriculturally fertile, though not as important as western Anatolia. Cappadocia is populated by a combination of Greek and Armenian-speaking peoples (and now it has some Turcomen, too). Horse and cattle breeding predominate, though there's some farming too. Cappadocia is not particularly wealthy. It has supplied the horses for your cavalry for many years, though these days most of your cavalry is mercenary anyway.

As for whether it's more economically draining to give up the provinces or fight the marauders, well, these guys didn't have reams of statistical data at their fingertips like we do now. You'll have to try to figure that one out yourself. ~:)

You two can change your choices if you like.

Vykke
09-09-2005, 17:09
Oh, another thing: In these days, when an agreement is made it typically applies only to the two leaders who actually signed it. There are very few multigenerational treaties. So if Arslan dies, then any treaty would be forfeit unless his successor chose to sign an extension of it with you. That's just how these things worked back then.

Azi Tohak
09-09-2005, 17:20
Would anyone be bothered by me posting a map of the Empire at this point so we know what the heck each province entails? I have Treadgold's History of the Byzantine State and society book at home, and I can shoot one of the maps and post it here. (I am checking online for a competant map right now too.) That way everyone will know what Syria, Cilicia, Cappadocia entails. For that matter, the rest of the empire would probably help too...

By the way, my first response is "screw you hippie"... but I think Eric Cartman is a thousand years later...

I require more thought on this (along with a map to delinate just how much territory Alp is asking).

Azi

SwordsMaster
09-09-2005, 17:26
Our own army is about 40k strong IIRC? of mostly outdated units. And no cash to pay them with.

option 4

This is the least I would settle for:

I would like to introduce a small modification then: the cash I brought over plus Siria in exchange for an alliance and a firm policy against the marauders.

Otherwise, Siria plus Cilicia for all the above and the support of his army in Sicily against the normans.

Vykke
09-09-2005, 21:19
Your troops are actually about 75k strong (counting the ones in Bulgaria now). But a lot of those are mercenaries of dubious reliability, and the rest have substandard equipment. Also, deploying them all to the east would be risky, with the Pechenegs, Cumans, Uzes, Hungarians, and Normans all eager to take a bite out of your territory.

Here's a pretty decent map (http://www.euratlas.com/big/1000big.jpg) , showing the thematic structure of the Empire, though it's almost a century out of date. A lot happened during that time.

Most importantly, the Bulgar Khanate was subjugated and annexed into the Empire. All those petty emirates and the caliphate east of the Empire have all been subjugated by the Seljuks (or, in the case of Armenia, by the Empire, then by the Seljuks). I think the Theme of Mesopotamia was lost during the wars, too. The Alans are larger and stronger than the map shows, and the Khazars weaker. The Cumans have moved a lot farther west, pushing the Uzes and Pechenegs ahead of them. Now they're both mostly concentrated just north of the Danube. The Empire has lost most of its holdings in Italy to the upstart Normans, except for Bari and some surrounding territory in southeast Italy, and Palermo, the capital of Sicily.

If you have a map more suited to the period, Azi, then by all means, upload it. :)

By the way, when the characters were discussing "Cappadocia," they were talking about the historical region of Cappadocia, which is something larger than the theme bearing its name in Michael's time. It extends east to the border, roughly.

Here's another one (http://www.worldhistoryplus.com/maps/byzantine_empires.jpg) , even more out of date, though it shows the major cities.

Kraxis
09-09-2005, 21:27
Ah you mean the Theme of Cappadocia and the Theme of Lycandos? I was hoping to possibly buy Arslan off with it. It seems insignificant yet important at tyhe same time.

Azi Tohak
09-09-2005, 22:15
I hopes everyone has big screens!

But these are the only relevant maps I was able to find in my book. I thought I had some that had the emprire and its probable (possible?) thematic boundaries at the end of 1070... but no luck.

https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/fuhteng/DSC00201.jpg

https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/fuhteng/DSC00201.jpg

https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/fuhteng/DSC00199.jpg

https://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a176/fuhteng/DSC00199.jpg

I hope these help.

Azi

AntiochusIII
09-09-2005, 22:41
There is no point in giving in to the Turks - the empire is far from being down. Do not be intimidated, continue talking, as in choice 4. Make it clear to Alp Arslan that you want his friendship and cooperation, but not at the cost of Roman prestige, or a single parcel of land. If it was after Manzikert it would be another situation but, for now, you have the manpower for a war. Be courteous, though. No need for aggressive words.

Choices 1,2 and 3 will be a major military setback. Antioch is a key city - an equivalent of Chang'an of the Shu-Wei war of the Three Kingdoms - Cilicia, too, is wealthy, and holds key passes between Anatolia and the Levant - Cappadocia is the empire's only area to actually raise a large amount of cavalry forces - even if parts given in the agreement are unimportant, what stops the Turks from taking the rest, and all Anatolia with it? Besides, who cares for a pacifist court of backstabbing cowards and conspiring selfish courtiers, when your true power (and main supporter) is the army, in which you will certainly lose much respect to surrender even before the war starts?

And we do have Alans on our side in case of war, remember Maria?

Though I quite regret when that Armenian (who supported Diogenes) was banished now; he could've been a living symbol (read: mascot) of Michael's "benevolence" in which he could rally Armenians to join him. :embarassed:

Choice 5 is too blunt. Michael is a mild person, he, I presume, does not have to intimidating factor of men like, presumably, Barbarossa when it comes to influencing diplomacy by force of will.

Edit: Oh, and subtly point out that you know his weakness: that his authority is far from complete over the Turks. Men tend to be more careful if they realize others know their dick isn't quite as large as it's boasted to be. In fact, equally subtly offer Roman aid in the matter, probably Alp Arslan woul reconsider the value of Constantinople's friendship. Indeed, if war becomes inevitable, support the enemies of the Sultan to distract and weakens him. The provinces of Anatolia are more or less Roman in loyalty and will raise their arms to support Michael against the hated Turks, should he call for, even if they're not strong enough to take on the likes of the Turkish horde on their own.

Azi Tohak
09-09-2005, 22:50
Nicely done Vykke. I did check online, but I did not have any luck. I am glad you did. Now then, assuming I can use my first map, with the updated thematic boundaries and assuming they are not too far wrong (the map shows 1025, but I believe the Byzantines did not start losing land control until after Manzikert).

If I use my first map, and assume that Alp is proposing Manuel grant him everything east of the line of: Tarsus, Podandus, Cappadocia, and then the thick grey line running NE... that is too steep to me.

No giving territory away for so little, not after the struggles Nicephoras Phocas and John Tzimisces (and their generals) had in taking the land for the Empire a hundred years before. Cappadocia, hiding behind the Tarsus-Antitarsus mountain line had been the frontier for the Empire for centuries. However, Tarsus controls the passes through the southern part of the Tarsus frontier, and with the Armenians, it is useful for its soldiers. And of course, there is Antioch. Probably the #3 city in the Empire right now, at least in terms of population (behind Constantinople and Thessalonika). Antioch is a tough nut to crack (as the Crusaders would find out), and would make a fine southern anchor in case of a major war with either the Fatmids or Seljuks (not that they like each other anyway).

Alp wants lots of giving here. If he really wants a place for his brethren to live... how about his own vast empire? He has Iraq, Iran, the rest of Syria already. The smallest area that would be important enough for Alp has to be the rest of Syria, with Antioch. However, there is not enough room for all his tribes. And of course, who is to say they won't multiply like rabbits and then need more room? What's next? Anatolia? HA! The last thing you need for Anatolia and the rest of Asia Minor is to have Turks with a homeland inside your natural fences.

If he does not like anything from #4, just land, then I think 2a would be the best, but get an Alliance out of him too. Very wealthy city, strong land, but... maybe you could sweeten the deal for it with something else.

I also wonder at the spin back from because of you less than secure throne. I wonder how much your nobles would like #1 or most of #2. They helped to fight for that land, and many of them probably have land of their own out there in the Wild Wild East (not that they really care... until you give it away).

I say #4 is the best. Despite what I have said above, I do not thinking giving up land is out of the question... I just wonder how much can be given to get him to quash what I view as his internal problem.

Azi

GoreBag
09-10-2005, 03:34
He's just haggling. Your opening big is always more than you really want. He can afford to be taken down a few notches, at least. Option 4.

I'm confident that war with the Turks may wind up in our favour, especially with a few well-placed bribes for the chiefs. The Alans, I'm sure, would enjoy getting some Turkish land. We won't need to pull our forces from other regions.

"I offered him double his estates in Scotland and lands in England. Lochlan turned...for much less."

Option 4 it is.

By the way...I suggest growing a beard. No one thinks you mean business unless you have a beard.

AntiochusIII
09-10-2005, 18:01
By the way...I suggest growing a beard. No one thinks you mean business unless you have a beard.I agree. A red one, too, if you can. And make it look majestic - half trimmed, half rugged. The soldiers like that. ~;)

Vykke
09-12-2005, 21:39
If I use my first map, and assume that Alp is proposing Manuel grant him everything east of the line of: Tarsus, Podandus, Cappadocia, and then the thick grey line running NE... that is too steep to me.


I also wonder at the spin back from because of you less than secure throne. I wonder how much your nobles would like #1 or most of #2. They helped to fight for that land, and many of them probably have land of their own out there in the Wild Wild East (not that they really care... until you give it away).

He's not asking for quite that much - by your map, Cappadocia, Podantus, Tarsus, and everything east of Podantus and Tarsus. The concessions wouldn't include the northeastern territories east of the thick gray line. Regardless, it's been pretty much settled in favor of #4. On the matter of political spin, at this point in time most nobles are pretty distant from military affairs (the closest most get are some "units" calling themselves Tagmata, that are really social clubs for young nobles who want to play soldier). Some of the nobles may own land in the east, but they'd be private holdings with no connection to their noble status. Later, they were given real lands of their own, but at this point in time, they mostly just sit in Constantinople. Many participate in the senate or bureaucracy, others do pretty much nothing. Obviously, a few families (notably Comnenus and Botaniates) are exceptions.

On the beard matter - Michael probably already has one. Certainly he did by the time these coins (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/Roman-Coins.asp?e=Michael_VII&par=920&pos=1&target=99)were minted. He's a Byzantine emperor, it's pretty much expected of him. ~;) I don't know what color his beard is, but since he's Greek, it's probably brown or black.

*******

You consider handing over territory - the prospect of an alliance is attractive - but it just doesn't seem to be worth it to you. Syria and Cilicia are too wealthy to give up so easily, and Cappadocia has, if nothing else, strategic importance because of its location in the middle of your Asian lands. You choose to look for more acceptable alternatives.

"As you have pointed out, gracious Sultan, I am Roman," you say, "and while I would appreciate your friendship, I cannot bear to part with the territory my forebears fought so long and hard to take and retain. There must be other ways to solve our problems to our mutual satisfaction. Perhaps your Turcoman kin can be encouraged to settle elsewhere? There is land aplenty in many regions of the world. Even within your own lands, there may be opportunity for them to live peacefully." Paulus tries to imitate your inflection in his translation. It's strange to hear your speech patterns imperfectly mimicked in the Turkish language, which sounds harsh to your ears. "The coffers of my Empire are, of course, available to help you reform a troublesome people. With the help of Imperial coin, perhaps you can encourage the Turcomen to adopt a lifestyle more suitable to national harmony."

"I regret to say that if I keep the welfare of my other subjects in mind, there is little place for them in my own realm," the Sultan replies. "The warrior spirit burns strongly in them, and while this is admirable, it makes them difficult neighbors for my other subjects." The two of you study each other for a few moments more, then suddenly he leans toward you intently. "However, as you've suggested, there is another land open to them. It is rich and expansive, and ruled by corrupt schismatics who do not recognize the true way of Allah. However, their strength is formidable. If you are not willing to donate land for my brethren, perhaps you can help us take it from those who do not deserve it."

"You speak of Egypt," you realize.

"Indeed. With your help I can reclaim it for the true Caliph. Especially, I would need the help of your navy to stop trade with the west, thus weakening them. Some land forces would be exceedingly helpful as well. With our combined might, we could topple the Fatimids and bring land to my nomads and glory to ourselves."

A war with Egypt wasn't really what you had in mind, but it's worth hearing him out. "What do you have in mind, from my end? You must remember that my soldiers and ships are needed in many provinces to protect our borders."

"Of course. As I stand the most to gain from the conflict, the bulk of the burden should be mine as well. I ask for the commitment of as many naval ships as you can spare, as well as a good portion of soldiers, though not enough to put your borders in jeapordy. Perhaps a couple tens of thousands of men, led by a capable commander, would suffice. I would like to bring them with me in the offense, rather than asking them to mount their own campaign. As I will be on the scene, and therefore better able to use them to best effect, they would be under my local command, but naturally, your word would be final in any matter regarding their orders."

You again have much to consider, and take your time. As the two of you have been speaking, you've come up with two other ideas besides what Alp Arslan is offering.

1. Accept this proposal. The Imperial navy is not as strong as it once was, but may be up to the challenge, especially if you can get Venice, an Imperial protectorate, to assist you. You could use a strong ally, and this way you wouldn't have to give up themes.

2. Decline to get your army involved in large numbers. You need them here, not in Egypt. Hopefully naval involvement will be enough to suit the Sultan.

3. Go further than what he's proposed. Offer to get involved in the war directly, commanding your own army and with the Empire's full participation, in exchange for a cut of the spoils. The Holy Land is under Fatimid control, and would be an enormous prize, if you can convince the Sultan to let you have it.

4. The first of your ideas: Offer him the gold again, but this time explain to him your plan. The money would be spent bribing the receptive Turcoman leaders to enter the Sultan's service in a more professional sense, as regular army units. He could create a specific corps for the Turcomen, and emphasize the honor associated with it. Those that are uninterested could be bribed to return to Turkestan or to head to Arabia, India, or other lands. Those that are receptive to neither approach could be driven away or subdued by force, if necessary, once most of their brethren are out of the way. This might require repeated payments from the Empire until the issue is resolved.

5. The second of your ideas: Offer to destroy the Turcomen for him. He will discretely rally as many of them as he can at the border between your empires for a "surprise attack," and then, through secret correspondences, provide your army the information it needs to crush them. He will then insist publicly that he had nothing to do with the disastrous "raid." You will back him up, claiming that there was no sign that the Sultan was involved, and that there is no need for continued fighting.

SwordsMaster
09-12-2005, 21:47
A combination of 1 and 4. Michael should use that money to recruit the turkomen in a special corps and then place them under a capable commander and send them to Egypt with Arslan. As of your navy, give him a few ships and let the Venetians help him too, and of course impeding egyptian trade, will put more money in your own pockets....

And tell Arslan that you will help him in the war.

AggonyDuck
09-12-2005, 21:52
Number 1, although I'm almost tempted to go with nr.3 for some extra dangers.. ~:)

AntiochusIII
09-12-2005, 22:28
A Question (request for more information) to Vykke: Is the Holy land currently wealthy? What is its condition under the Fatimids? Is it densely populated or sparsely so? What would you stand to gain in Palestine? All or part of them?

I am greedy. :devil:

Kraxis
09-12-2005, 23:37
As far as I know the Fatimids are not too strong at the moment, and should prove a rather easy conquest between you.

I'm just beginning to get cold feet about my previous speeches about Arslan's 'honour'. He was never pushed this far in reality and most often had most to gain from the honourable choice. He could do a backstab...

I'm inclined to look for a solution where the Turcomans are used directly in the war. "Here is your promised land, take it... We will in fact pay you to take it."

So yeah, 1 and 4. But if push comes to shove, 1. 3 does sound rather tempting too... And in such a case it is unlikely that Arslan can do a backstab (you are there with a big army). But my choise stands.

GoreBag
09-13-2005, 00:20
I vote number 1. This is where we scratch his back. He'll scratch ours when the time comes to crush the Normans. At least, that would be optimal.

AntiochusIII
09-13-2005, 00:24
Ha! Alp Arslan drives a hard bargain. But if he wants Egypt to prevent the annexation of Roman lands then Egypt it shall be.

Though 1 and 4 seems popular I'd much prefer 1 and 3. The Empire's coffer is not huge - it's rather, in fact, around the bottom. The Turkomen could continue to plague the Imperial financial situation this way for quite some time. And what guarantee do we have that Alp Arslan won't betray the Empire after he has Egypt, but respect for you he currently seems to lack?

You have to engage in the war yourself. Prove your strength, and claim the Holy Land (I had no choice but to presume that the Levant is probably currently quite prosperous). It is likely that the fact that Christians again rule Jerusalem would help in your reputation at home. The uneducated masses are pious Christians, and an emperor who reclaims the so-called "holy city" for "God's empire" could be very popular, and that would probably even help the relationship with the West (or provoke envy?).

I approve 1 and 3. Oh, and do let the Sultan gather his Turks back for the Egyptian conquest. And if my choice is chosen, I suggest letting the Turks drives the war forward for a while before fully engaging to convince the Fatimids that we are less of a threat, and therefore would not fight us full force while everything they have are occupied with the Turks.

Azi Tohak
09-13-2005, 04:02
Ha I knew it! I knew Vykke had done his homework and would get to the Fatmids eventually. Now then... what to do about them?

To be honest, the idea of recovering the Holy Land (no crusades! [good or bad?]) is interesting... but I would much rather have a weak Fatmid empire to help counter the very strong Seljuks, then a vastly stronger Seljuk empire to deal with, and no more Fatmids. Sure, maybe the Fatmids are weak... but still, they are very wealthy (the Nile will do that for you). But I hate the idea of a Seljuk empire combining the wealth of Egypt and the strength of the Seljuks (as they stand under Alp). I must protest helping Alp with any war against the Fatmids.

So now what? I don't want to give him land (and nor, I suppose, did he expect it), but I also don't want to help him with his 'adventure'. How can I get his help to stop the raiders?

1. No, already elaborated why.

2. See 1 above.

3. ...

4. I don't think forming a Jihading (think Crusading) order with the undisciplined Turcoman tribes would work.... and who is to keep them from going after those outside the house of Islam? Not Alp!

5. THIS could be fun. But I don't trust Alp any farther than I can throw him. Who is to say that won't just make a Manzikert with Manuel at the helm?

6. So now what? I don't like anything that has come up. To be frank, what I would like to do is take a lunch break, to our separate camps, and discuss with my advisors what to do.

7. If no break (afterall, we have not been talking very long at all), I say 1 (tens of thousands? Try maybe 10,000) and really try to get Venice to help out. All you need is Venice to get mad at your right now for trying to shut down one of their buddies (I figure trade works in every direction to be honest, and merchants really don't like war).

8. This one is more parenthetical, but Vykke, who do you have owning Cyprus right now? I believe the Empire continued to own Cyprus for a very long time... but if I am wrong and the Fatmids own it, then I suggest Manuel hit that. Hard. Talk about a valuable province. Yeah! Naval base, trade... sweet! And get rid of any pirates.

Wow... so I want: 6 then 8 (if I am right), then 7 if possible.

Thanks for reading this... I know it was a pain, but the Seljuks worry me. The Ottomans were one of those Turcoman tribes afterall.

Azi

AntiochusIII
09-13-2005, 04:33
Hmm...your worries are legitimate, Azi. May be it's time for the *gasp* crusades? ~D

Perhaps we can take the Holy Land (my way... ~;) ) then direct the crusades to Damietta in Egypt. Or let them cross Palestine to Baghdad.

Just kidding.

However I'd like to really, really know the conditions of the Holy Land right now. It means everything between decisions 4 or 3. If it is rich (is Phoenicia still rich?), then take it by all means. The wealth gained will allow for more recruitments, diplomatic flexibility, and the rearming process of the Imperial army, which will probably help our emperor Michael Ducas squash the Turks alright.

If it's a poor, devastated, potentially rebellious province, then it's not really worth it...

Is there, by any chance, a choice to preserve the treasury while militarily support the Turks so we can just bribe the Turkish tribes (and call out the Alans) and stab Alp Arslan in the back when he was occupied in Egypt? :evilgrin:

GoreBag
09-13-2005, 07:15
Is there, by any chance, a choice to preserve the treasury while militarily support the Turks so we can just bribe the Turkish tribes (and call out the Alans) and stab Alp Arslan in the back when he was occupied in Egypt? :evilgrin:

And to think I was actually considering making strong allies out of the Seljuks...

Vykke
09-13-2005, 07:38
The Turcomen are already Seljuk bannermen, after a fashion, albeit barbaric and undisciplined ones. You can be sure that even without a major attempt being made to turn them into a regular cavalry corps, Alp Arslan would call on them to help take the land they've been promised.

Cyprus is currently under Byzantine rule, and is a major thematic supplier of ships.

Antiochus: Right now you're just making the bargain. Whether or not you'll keep it is a matter for later decisions.

Though Palestine isn't as wealthy as, for instance, Antioch, it's far from poor. It has some cities of significant size (Tyre, Jerusalem, Beisan, Acre, etc.) and a fair amount of trade. There's a lot of religious pilgrims who visit the area, and they contribute economically as well. How much of it you get, if any, will be determined in your negotiations with Arslan if you decide to go that route.

King Henry V
09-13-2005, 17:07
I don't like the sound of ten thousand marching with the Turks. Alp Arsaln could easily give the order for them to be massacred in their sleep. It would be best if you provided a slightly larger army of 15,000, but independant and it would land somehwere in Egypt to open up a second front. Get Alexandria and Jerusalem in the subsequent peace deal, and perhaps Acre and Tyre. With Acre, Alexandria and Tyre you could dangle these in front of the Venitians noses in excahnge for naval assistance. However, if and when the Fatimids do succumb, make sure that they aren't completely destroyed. They may prove valuable later.

King Henry V
09-13-2005, 17:09
Does anyone like my suggestion?

Azi Tohak
09-13-2005, 20:50
Well yes Henry, insofar as supporting Alp goes. But how do you propose to keep the Fatmids from collapsing completely if you have Alexandria and Alp has whatever he wants? I wonder if it would be possible to have a Seleucid vs Ptolemaic fight on our hands. Keep squabbling over the Holy land.. but no real inroads into either's heartland. Keep both fighting each other and the Empire peaceful and happy.

Thanks for the info Vykke. I thought as much, I just wanted to be sure.

Azi

Vykke
09-14-2005, 01:20
I don't mind you guys debating all the nuances like this for as long as you like, but I just thought I'd remind you that only the first poster gets to make a suggestion other than the choices given. I think that if anyone could make one, we'd wind up spending days on each decision while everyone argued over what should be done.

Anyway, if I understand everyone correctly, Swordsmaster wants to both send troops and offer to help the Sultan reform the Turcoman warriors into a cohesive military unit. 1pain1duck supports 1, and Antiochus supports 1 or 3, rather than a combination of the two. I'll make a three-way run-off, including Swordsmaster's suggested combination.

So, the newly-renumbered options at the moment are:

#1: Agree to Arslan's proposal as it stands.

#2: Offer to spend money helping him turn the Turcomen into a disciplined military corps, as well as sending troops to help him win the war in Egypt.

#3: Offer to enter the war personally, and bargain for as much of the Levant as you can get in exchange.

DemonArchangel
09-14-2005, 02:22
3.)

Cuz war is cool.

GoreBag
09-14-2005, 03:21
2. I'd be very careful with the wording, though. I wouldn't want to offend him on behalf of the lifestyle of his countrymen.

Azi Tohak
09-14-2005, 04:06
Doh. I didn't know that I couldn't propose other things. Bad Azi :embarassed:

Humm... I think #3 will work fine. Get Michael out in the field. But lets try to keep him from getting killed.

Azi

AntiochusIII
09-14-2005, 05:31
3. Hehe. Thanks, Vykke, for summarizing things. :bow:

It's time for some action now, we've been out cold for a while since the heat of the Diogenes crisis died down.

Otherwise, Vykke is right: Michael is, after all, in a middle of a diplomatic negotiation. Realistically he (Michael) wouldn't have time to debate the pros and cons of the choices thoroughly. It would've been quite an impulse response. Impulse often means reckless; reckless means more violent that normal. ~D

SwordsMaster
09-14-2005, 14:24
If we go for 3 though, the turkomen problem remains as we won't have money to pay them off as we'd spend it on war. SEcondly it doesnt solve the Constantine problem and leaving him in Constantinople while we take off for Egypt is not the wisest choice....

Vykke: I suggested recruiting the turcomen Yourself as opposed to giving the sultan money for that. Why reinforce your enemy?

That is still my choice: 2. Don't give HIM the money. Just tell him you'll help.

Vykke
09-14-2005, 23:19
Azi: No worries. I didn't mind, I just wanted to make sure you knew how it worked. ~:)

Swordsmaster: Oh, I see what you mean now. Sorry about the misunderstanding. I assume you're talking about the Turcomen who are already in your territory, right? How you deal with them will be the issue in another decision (this upcoming one, in fact), and doesn't have much to do with your negotiations with Arslan. If you're talking about the ones still in Seljuk territory (which is most of them), then I don't think it's really feasible for you to recruit them, since they're subjects of the Sultan. Those are the ones the choice was addressing, not the ones already in your territory. My fault, I should have been more clear on that.

I'll include your suggestion as one of the options in the next decision.

********

You consider this proposition and, finding it worthy, you are about to accept it, when you realize the golden opportunity that sits before you. Your predecessors have desired to reclaim the Holy Land for centuries. You may finally be able to do this, and with the help and blessing of Baghdad, no less! You quickly stifle your excitement before it betrays you and present your counter-proposal to Alp Arslan. "Your suggestion has much merit, Excellent Sultan. In fact, it is such a striking proposal that I believe we should take it a step further. I would like to participate fully and personally in the war. With the full might of both our empires directed toward Egypt, it cannot fail to swiftly fall. With such overwhelming force, we would suffer fewer losses and accomplish Roman and Turkish dominance of Asia that much faster." You realize after you've spoken that you probably should have said 'Turkish' first, but no matter.

The Sultan seems a bit taken aback by your proposal. "In return for a portion Fatimid territory, I presume?" You think he sounds slightly suspicious, but it's hard to tell through that barbaric language.

"Yes, Eminent Sultan. This way we both stand to gain equally from the endeavor. The close cooperation will foster greater goodwill between our people, and absorb less time and resources. Naturally, as the Levant is the only part of Fatimid territory that is contiguous with the land of my governance, I would like to put it under Roman law once it has been reclaimed by our armies. The rest of their sprawling lands would be freely yours."

This time, Arslan considers for quite a while before replying. "I'm sorry to say that I cannot let you have the entire Levant, your majesty. I know that Jerusalem is an exceedingly holy city for your people - it is for mine as well, in fact - and that it would bring much glory to your nation to possess it. However, once our mutual enemy is defeated, southern Palestine will be an important bridge between Egypt and the rest of my provinces. I could not let you take anything south of Mt. Carmel."

You press him a bit further on the issue - the Holy Land hardly seems so holy without Jerusalem - but you can see that he won't budge. However, he does grant you a different concession. "Perhaps it is meet that you should be granted Alexandria or Damietta should your troops perform valiantly and succeed in taking them. These are valuable ports that could retain contact with the rest of your empire through maritime travel, while trading peacefully with the inland territory of Egypt that my people will control. Does this sound acceptable?"

"Agreed. Together, Egypt shall be ours!"

After that, the conversation winds up fairly rapidly, mostly focused on hammering out the details of the agreement. The two of you will meet again in Antioch when the campaign begins soon. You've been promised everything west of the Orontes and Jordan Rivers and north of Mt. Carmel, plus Alexandria and Damietta if your troops can take them. In the Levant, this gives you the Phoenician coast with its excellent harbors, as well as a number of cities, including Tortosa, Tripoli, Tyre, Sidon, and Acre. It does not include Jerusalem, Jaffa, Homs, Damascus, or Caesarea (of Palestine). You don't spend much time on polite talk, but you suspect you'll have plenty of time to get to know your newfound ally on the campaign.

The two of you part ways soon after business is concluded, with Paulus accompanying the Sultan back to Baghdad. Leaving the Euphrates behind you, you make haste back to Caesarea (of Asia Minor). You're eager to begin preparations for the venture, but you promised yourself you'd look into Psellus' problems there on the way back and see what you could do to sort them out. Riding through the city, you find it difficult to reconcile the crumbling houses and burnt cathedral with the polite and reasonable-sounding man you just spoke and allied with. War can make reasonable men do unreasonable things, you reflect.

For the second time in two weeks, Psellus rides out to meet you. You quickly explain the agreement you'd reached with the Sultan. While he seems leery of making war with Egypt, he is glad that you found common cause with the Seljuk. For his part, Botaniates, when you meet him, seems rather pleased. "An excellent idea your majesty," he says. "In fact, with peace with the Turks, if the Sultan honors his pledge and stops the immigration that vexes us, then there is little need for my presence here on the eastern fronteir. I would be honored to accompany you on this campaign."

"I'm certain your advice would be invaluable, Botaniates," you tell him. "When it comes time to decide who will accompany me, you will be one of the first I consider."

As Psellus explained before, the problem currently facing you is the difficulty of suppressing the "warrior spirit" of the Turcomen, as Arslan put it. They have been fighting the Greeks and each other, and most have so far refused to acknowledge the authority of Roman law. The current tactic that Psellus and Botaniates have been attempting is to allow the Turcomen to keep the land they've already taken, but refuse to let them take any more. When financially possible, they've been trying to provide some compensation for the displaced people, but money is short, and there is still a good deal of disgruntlement among the natives. New Turcomen to arrive must, if they wish to abide by Psellus' rules, buy the land they will inhabit, or take imperial land via the thema system, in exchange for military service with the local theme. Most of this has been given out in the depopulated theme of Lycandos. One of the hurdles this program is facing is that the land is not as desirable as that in Cappadocia which can be taken by force, and another is that Psellus is requiring the nomadic Turks to convert to Orthodox Christianity. Most of the tribesmen are Muslim or pagan, and while some have converted, most have shown resistance to the idea.

Psellus acknowledges that his program has not been very effective so far, but believes that it will improve dramatically when the Turcomen stop coming over. Botaniates is of a similar mind, but wants to put more pressure on the Turcomen to sign the thema contract rather than settling as civilian families. In order to help this process, he thinks it would be best if you lifted restrictions on religion that Psellus put into place. "I'd prefer they were Christian, too," he says, "but realistically, I think it would be best to provide them a useful place here as fast as possible. They can be converted over time once they've accepted their status as Roman citizens."

The strategos, or thematic governor, of Cappadocia asks to meet with you, too. He's been playing a role in this effort as well, and has his own take on it. "Personally, your majesty, and I hope you don't mind my saying so, but I think this whole thing has been a mistake. The Roman citizens around here are angry at the Imperium and angry at my troops as well, for playing a part in this. I agree that the Turks who've signed the thema contract and joined my men are brave and seem loyal enough, but I don't think it's worth all the difficulty of trying to win the rest over. I would be most pleased if you were to evict all of the Muslim and pagan Turcomen from Cappadocia and Lycandos, and I believe your citizens would be as well."

Another idea comes to you, as well. What if you were to recruit the Turcomen to your own Imperial service, rather than that of the themes? It would be similar to your earlier idea that you considered presenting to the Sultan, but applied to your own nation. You would create a seperate corps of Turcomen, emphasize its presitge, and attempt to recruit as many of the nomads into its ranks as possible, with money, influence, the promise of land... whatever you and Psellus can offer them. Those that refuse can be dealt with in Psellus' manner or ejected from Roman land if they continue to cause problems.

Then there's the matter of the Turcomen that attacked you. You definitely haven't forgotten about them.

A. 1. Allow Psellus to continue his current program of civilian settlement, accompanied by thematic recruiting of those who are willing to convert and sign the thema agreement. He insists that it will work much better without continual immigration. This plan would allow the Turcomen a good deal of freedom on whether they wish to become civilian herders or thematic warriors.

2. Follow Botaniates' advice. Strongly pressure the Turcomen to join the thematic army and recieve land in Lycandos in exchange. Those that refuse will be permitted to do so, but may suffer less-than-favorable treatment by the provincial authorities. He doesn't want to force them to convert, though, so he will allow them to keep their current religion when they join up.

3. Follow the strategos' advice. Evict all of the Turcomen who haven't already converted to Orthodox Christianity. This may take some military involvement in the short term, but it will make things peaceful and prosperous here again much faster than the other plans promise.

4. Go with your own idea of recruiting them into an Imperial unit created for the purpose. Cajole them into joining willingly with high pay and honors. Those who don't wish to join will be allowed to stay, but will be readily evicted if they cause trouble.

B. 1. Tell Botaniates and the strategos to make a top priority out of finding the tribesmen that attacked you and make sure that they are punished. You can't let them get away with attacking the Emperor himself!

2. Tell your men to search for them, but make them a relatively low priority. There's enough things to worry about here without divering extensive resources into such a hunt.

GoreBag
09-14-2005, 23:37
A) 4 and B) 1. In fact. We needed more soldiers anyway, and those nomads are going to pay for that.

AntiochusIII
09-14-2005, 23:43
Finally, the negotiation is concluded. If the plans all go well Michael Ducas will make his mark in Roman history at last.

Though Jerusalem isn't going to be ours, and the prestige if victory is achieved less than what it could be; economically, southern Palestine was poorer and less populated than the rest. And the control of Alexandria or Damietta could be very useful if war ever happens with the Turks. Heavily fortified "beachhead" cities ready for a Roman landing and invasion straight up the Nile much faster than a march from Baghdad. I'd rather go with Alexandria, though, it gives more prestige, being the ancient city with much Hellenistic history and pride in it.

Now to the choices...

I'd choose choice 4 for the first set, based on several reasons.

Psellus' plan isn't working, and religious conversion isn't really worth it in face of such situations. Choice 1 is not the way to go.

Choice 3 is too drastic, and may, in fact, offend your new ally long before you should. ~;)

Choice 2, though sounds good, I fear that too many Turkish thematic troops would change the already disturbed balance of power in the area. They need to be used elsewhere, if used at all. And they won't do anything, and be much less effective than they should in defending the Eastern border, considering how it would eventually be their cousins anyway that cross the Roman border. Nonetheless, I will still go with the relaxing of the conversion rule set up by Psellus.

Choice 4, though financially costly, would give you a useful unit in the upcoming campaign against the Fatimids, and after that, they will be a potent tool against the Normans, and for your own ambitions in the West.

For the second set I'm really indecisive. But considering that Imperial prestige may (or may not...) be at stake, and stability is easier if an example is made, the hunt for the arrogant raiders should be taking a high priority. Choice 1 for set B.

Edit: wow, I see we're agreeing, NeonGod. :bow:

GoreBag
09-14-2005, 23:57
Edit: wow, I see we're agreeing, NeonGod. :bow:

Great minds...

Kraxis
09-15-2005, 01:14
Hmm... Little point in giving a dissenting voice here. The rule of the first and the majority is already working.

But in any case I would have gone for A1 and B1.

Psellus told you on your way to the meeting, that he had trouble gettign te Turks to remain placid since new arrivals kept coming, but that he was indeed initially successful each time. Therefor I believe he would succeed when the little adventure to Egypt was over.

Azi Tohak
09-15-2005, 01:59
There is no way I would want to hunt smoke, so no 3. As bad as that makes me feel... your civilians will have to deal with it :embarassed:

Let me get this straight, if Michael tries A4, and they don't join up... they follow A1 right? If so, I think A4 would be the best bet. Nice to have some fast moving archers. But how exactly are they going to be disicplined? Break the tribes up and put them in separate units? That will take time that I am not so sure we have (assuming they are to be used on this campaign).

And where is this 'high pay' coming from? All the same, I go with A4.

With B, I just don't think it is worth trying to find them. I don't recall noticing anything speical about the troops that attacked, nothing to distinguish them (aside from ineptitude). So B2 for me (and yes, I know I'm outvoted).

Azi

GoreBag
09-15-2005, 02:30
And where is this 'high pay' coming from? All the same, I go with A4.

We're just promising high pay, which we can either deliver once Egyptian lands are ours, or we have them all killed off in a suicidal battle.

King Henry V
09-15-2005, 17:15
I like the sound of 3. as it would deal with the problem quickly and will gain popularity with your people who see you as either betraying them or a weakling. However, it could lead to a long war of attrition as your forces try to hunt down the Turks, and it would cause more devastation. Although it might sour relation swith the Sultan somewhat, I think you are too much of a valuable ally for him to worry about some uncontrollable nomads.
4. Does sound the best bet, although it wouldn't consider settling them in Asia Minor. Give them land in Bulgaria and the Balkans or perhaps Southern Italy. But whatever happens do not group them together. As a very small minority they will easily integrate into the surrounding population, together in a group they will retain their customs and barbarian ways. As pleasing this may sometimes sound to the modern ear., YOU DO NOT WANT THIS! In the same way, I don't think it is advisable to take them with to fight in Egypt. Send them against the bandits in Bulgaria. When the Turcomans reire ans settle on their lands, they must revert to the Crown upon their death. Descendants will be granted that land in return for continued military service.

As for B. well I don't that the incidence was very important. Finding them would prove difficult and costly. Just forget it.

King Henry V
09-15-2005, 17:25
Oh I forgot something. I just looked at a map of the Holy Land, and I don't think it would be that threatening to the Seljuks' connection to Egypt if land until the River Elah and between the sea and the Dead Sea/Jordna River. It would not be that much more land and you could come to a compromise by allowing the Seljuks access to the pilgrim sites, no duties on the ships coming into the ports or tolls across the land and military access to troops (but be careful not to let any actual troops be posted there). See the map here (warning: very large map 1000k):http://www.katapi.org.uk/images/Maps/HolyLandPhysicalHR.jpg

SwordsMaster
09-15-2005, 20:26
A4, obviously as it is my ow suggestion ~D and B1. You have to represent security for you and your people.

I would follow the advice of sending them to Bulgaria and Sicily and only take to Africa the most loyal ones. Or a very small part. Just in case.

Vykke
09-15-2005, 21:36
NeonGod: Unfortunately, nobody's going to believe that they're an elite, highly-honored corps unless you at least get them some decent equipment. So you're going to have to spend some money there, at least.

King Henry: Nevertheless, that's what Arslan insisted on. In his defense, if he'd given Michael land up to the Elah, then if he needed to move troops from Egypt to Syria or vice versa without entering Byzantine territory, he'd have to loop them around through the arid land to the south and east of the Dead Sea, and then through miles of yet more desert all the way to Damascus. The whole trip would have only one settlement of reasonable size (Panias) in which to rest and resupply. And this is after already passing through a lot of desert in the Sinai.

Of course, there's other reasons for him to want the area in question. Controlling Jerusalem confers some prestige even on a Muslim. Also, that land contains Jaffa, which, since he won't have Phoenicia, will be his only decent port to the Mediterranean east of Egypt.

The concessions you're talking about could largely eliminate most of these problems, but you're assuming that Arslan trusts you explicitly. Just because you promise to share the goodies doesn't mean you actually will, and Arslan doesn't know you well enough to take that risk. Also, by offering Damietta and Alexandria he gives you an incentive (other than honor) to continue helping him after the two of you have already conquered the Levant.

*****

You quickly decide in favor of your own idea. It's a given that you can use more troops with war looming over you, and if you can establish stability in Cappadocia at the same time, so much the better. You explain your idea to Psellus and Botaniates. Alexius sits in on the discussion as well.

"I believe we can make better use of these Turcomen as Imperial soldiers, not thematic ones," you tell them. "I would like to create a new cavalry corps especially for the Turks living within the Empire. It will be an elite unit with much prestige... and good pay, as well. Any Turcoman who joins will be entitled to have the Empire pay a portion of the price of the land his family settles on. Thus, we will help the settlement and nationalization process in addition to assisting our military strength. I will require you, my representatives in this area, to make sure that the Turcomen know of this opportunity."

"Your majesty," Psellus protests, "my current tactic is much less expensive. Surely..."

"I'm sorry, my old teacher, but my mind is made up. Price is a secondary concern now, with war on the horizon."

"What about those that don't want to join, then?" He asks.

"Treat them as you have been doing. They certainly shouldn't be forced to send their sons to my service. Just encouraged. I won't require that they convert, either. I want to give the Turcomen some pride in their status as Imperial citizens, and that won't work if hardly any of them join."

"Sire," Alexius pipes up. "I am intrigued by this new corps you will invent. Would you permit me to drill them myself? I would be pleased to take this new institution under my wing."

Botaniates looks ready to protest the whole affair, too, but you speak before he has a chance to do so. Alexius gave an excellent account of himself on the voyage, and you doubt anyone else would be more qualified than he. "Of course, Comnenus. I believe you will do well by the new corps. I also believe that we should give it a name, and we can do no better than the powerful ancient horse archers of Iran. I would like to christen the new unit the 'Immortals.' Recruiting will begin as soon as you are able to make it happen.

"Oh, and one other thing. As you've probably heard by now, we suffered an attack by Turcoman raiders on the way to the meeting with the Sultan. You may have access to some of the sharpest men who accompanied me, to give you appropriate descriptions of the events. I want you to find them as punish them for this transgression, as swiftly as you are able."

"Yes, Imperator," acknowledge Psellus and Botaniates.

You depart for the capital only hours later.

After another long trip across Anatolia in which you discuss the details with Alexius about the equipment, battle dress, and organization of the future Immortals, you come to the Bosporus. The mighty walls of Constantinople loom across the strait like the gleaming gray-white armor of a giant. There are few sights that make you prouder to be Roman. You're shocked to realize that you've never written an iambic about it; you'll have to remedy that someday.

When you enter the palace, you immediately seek out John Ducas. You find him resting with his wife in his suite, though he quickly excuses himself from her presence and accompanies you to the throne room. You sent a rider ahead of you with news about the upcoming war and your solution to the Turcoman problem, so he can largely concentrate on tell you his news, rather than the other way around.

While you were gone, a large number of semi-barbaric warriors carrying axes began to arrive in Thrace by way of merchant shipping. Luckily, they seem to be peaceful so far. They seem to be Saxons who have fled the conquest of England by William, the illegitimate son of the Duke of Normandy, and came here because they heard that there are good positions available for capable Northmen among the Varangian Guard. The Caesar has been reluctant to recruit them because of the tight financial situation, especially now that money will be needed for the new Immortals unit. Reluctantly, you agree that the treasury is too shallow to allow an increase in the size of the Guard. In the short term, the frequency of patrols in the region has been increased, just in case things turn hostile.

In Bulgaria, Crispinus has met with some success in dealing with both the brigands and raiders. The attacks are now focused largely on the towns close to the border, and the latest tax shipment from Bulgaria arrived on time. The missing shipment is still nowhere to be found, however, and his letter to you reports that he believes it will take several more months to completely eliminate the brigands. Again, he requests more troops with which to pursue the raiders back across the border, but you are forced to decline. The upcoming war with Egypt has a much higher priority.

As you expected, Emperor Constantine did not play a large part in governing the Empire, though he did help the megas logothetes (the head treasurer) in some of his duties. They report that together they've brought some more order to the Imperial tax registry, but the effect on collection efficiency is small.

As you begin preparing for the campaign, you are approached by John Ducas' son, Constantine Ducas, who offers to accompany you. He has been making a study of strategy and has assisted his father in many of his duties. He's always been quite an energetic fellow, and has been useful in minor roles so far. In addition, Epiphania comes to you one day and says that your brother Andronicus would like to come with you, but is reluctant to ask because he has no formal military experience. "He's taken an interest in those things, though. Especially after you did, he began to see the utility of martial skills for a member of the Imperial household. He would appreciate some real experience on campaign."

You also have to decide how to go about getting Venice's help for the coming naval war. It may be an Imperial protectorate, but it's a rather headstrong one with significant power in its own right. You seek advice on the matter.

The Caesar believes you should just send a simple request. "To be honest, though, I don't think it would work. Vencie is a city of merchants, and they conduct a lot of profitable trade with Egypt. We would have to promise them much to get them to go to war with a valuable trade partner. We are probably better off without such expensive help."

When you ask John Scylitzes, he has a different idea. "Closer ties with Venice could be extremely useful to our Empire, and I think allying against a common enemy would be a good first step. Perhaps we can reduce or eliminate the tariff on traders from our protectorates in Constantinople. Offer them this and a firmer alliance in which we protect each other's business interests with our navies. Surely such on offer will entice them to help."

Your own instinct, however, tells you to promise them tariff-free trading rights in Alexandria and Damettia once you've conquered them. In the long run, this would probably give them a better situation than the one they currently have in Egypt, and so there would be a strong incentive for them to help.

You have no less than three choices to make at this time.

A. What to do with Venice:
1. Just send a request for help. Like the Caesar mentioned, it's very unlikely to work, but you'd rather not have to bribe your protectorates to help you.

2. Offer them closer naval ties and trade priviledges in Constantinople. This may be costly in the long run (tariffs are an important part of your revenue) but the naval help and increased security granted by an alliance with Venice may be worthwhile.

3. Promise them tax-free trading in Damietta and Alexandria once the campaign is over. Of course, there's a risk that you won't be able to take those cities after all, in which case the Seljuks might get them.

B. How much of your army to bring on the campaign:
1. 20,000 soldiers

2. 30,000 soldiers

3. 40,000 soldiers

4. 50,000 soldiers

C. Who to bring on the campaign (to keep this from getting too messy, let's say you can pick up to two, but no more):
1. Nicephorus Botaniates
2. Manuel Comnenus
3. Nicephorus Bryennius
4. Alexius Comnenus
5. John Ducas
6. Constantine Ducas (your cousin, not your brother)
7. Andronicus Ducas

AggonyDuck
09-15-2005, 22:51
A3, B2, C4 and 7. ~:)

AntiochusIII
09-15-2005, 23:11
A3. Venice would be willing to support you to the end (I mean into Egypt) that way, since the war will have to be won and won spectacularly if they're to benefit. And your own Greek merchants won't get mad at you, either.

B2. The Fatimids are weak. But the Turks must not be able to stab you in the back. So around 30,000 is good. Not too much (other borders aren't that peaceful) but not too few, either.

For C...

Botaniates will have to continue protecting the Eastern border.

Manuel Comnenus will hold the martial side of Constantinople for your side and reduce a chance of mutiny.

Bryennius is a skillful general, true. But he'd do well being ready-to-be-called in Constantinople. Who knows when we'll need an experienced general of some reputation soon somewhere? Actually, I'd request that he be put around the arriving Saxons and make friends with them. If we can't hire them now may be the spoils from Egypt will give us the money? These skilled former Huskarls will cut down any Norman or Italian infantry they fought. And they will be very willing to cut down the Normans for you. ~;)

Alexius Comnenus is still quite young, and a very skilled commander at that. He doesn't yet has the reputation of Bryennius though. He would do well serving you as second-in-command. And you'd do well to have this skilled-emperor-in-actual-history as a friend and companion.

John Ducas will continue to be the pillar for your throne in Constantinople, alongside Manuel Comnenus.

I don't really see the point of bringing Constantine Ducas along. He might be a possible junior general for you but the empire already have enough generals as it is.

Andronicus needs to be made more loyal and more useful. Though he won't be of any real help you'd make his status higher in the eyes of the court at Constantinople with him accompanying you, therefore a useful brother of the emperor to counter your youngest brother as needed. The family of Epiphania will also be confirmed that Andronicus has a place in your plans.

So for C choose Alexius and Andronicus.

Also, would anyone agree with me that the Turks, may be, should be sent as reinforcements to Crispinus, after all? That should satisfy the general, gives him more "weapons at hand", and the soldiers will do well as they're swift and nimble, and loyal as there is no point to revolt in Bulgaria.

Edit: After Vykke's post below. I decide to advise that Nicephorus Bryennius should also be put on training the Turkish "immortals." If he had "touched" both the Turks and the Saxons (as in my suggestion above), he might even manage to provide a useful opinion of both groups' abilities and loyalty.

SwordsMaster
09-15-2005, 23:48
Agree with AntiochusIII

Vykke
09-15-2005, 23:59
I meant to mention this, but it slipped my mind. If you choose to bring Alexius with you, he'll put someone else in charge of training and leading the Immortals while he's gone, since they won't be ready in time to take part in the campaign. If you leave him behind, he'll stay in Constantinople and continue to work with them personally.

I'm not sure if that'll affect your choice or not, but if so, feel free to change it.

Antiochus, I think you're getting Bryennius mixed up with Botaniates (which is understandable... they have the same first name, and similar last names!). Bryennius is still relatively untested as a general, though he had a fairly successful career as an army captain. Botaniates is an older and well-respected general with a lot of field experience.

GoreBag
09-16-2005, 03:58
A3, B2 and C2,6. Constantine is still young and impressionable. I think it'd be good to have him soak up some experience and make him feel privileged by being given the chance. More nobles who are happy will be better in the long run. Manuel's a sharp guy - I'm sure he can teach and slaughter Egyptians at once.

Azi Tohak
09-17-2005, 01:39
A 2/3. I don't know how the money works out, but whichever would be cheaper for the Empire is what I pick. Probably A3 since Constantinople is so very important.

B 2. I don't know how many troops will be needed afterall, and 30,000 is a heckuva force! That is a lot of power, but still leaves 45,000 for defense (and whatever you call Bulgaria), maybe enough for 15,000 for an emergency army.

C 2 and 7. As much as I like Alexius, it seems silly to me to take the commander of a unit with me for who-knows-how-long, and I would really like to have Manuel there to help out. And I just think Andronicus will prove to be a fantastic help. Call it a hunch.

As an aside Vykke, could you have Constantine Ducas assist Alexius? Maybe make Constantine the XO (or whatever their equivalent is?). He wants to help, he comes from a worthy family, and I think he will learn a lot. He might prove to be useful to lead the first trained unit to help out with Bulgaria for example...

The Saxons could prove to be very useful. If they are Mercs, maybe they will work for the Venetians? Maybe you could ask Alp if he wants some very strong western european troops for a hard core of infantry? Sure you might wind up fighting them... but if they are Mercs, you could wind up with that anyway.

Azi

AntiochusIII
09-17-2005, 07:48
Antiochus, I think you're getting Bryennius mixed up with Botaniates (which is understandable... they have the same first name, and similar last names!). Bryennius is still relatively untested as a general, though he had a fairly successful career as an army captain. Botaniates is an older and well-respected general with a lot of field experience.Don't worry. I know who they are. Botaniates, if memory serves, will go on to be an emperor (and a bad one at that) and deposed by the Comneni brothers. Unless I'm confusing him with a few other emperors... And, of course, he is the protector of the Eastern border at the moment.

Bryennius, on the other hand, never becomes an emperor. Rather, he served loyally and skillfully to the empire and the Comneni dynasty until his death during John Comnenus' reign. Though he's not a seasoned veteran, he's still more experienced someone like Alexius.

Oh, and the idea of young Constantine Ducas (the cousin) assisting whoever in charge of training the Turks (and, if my request is agreed upon, making friends with the Saxons) is a great idea. Thanks.

Vykke
09-17-2005, 09:18
Antiochus: I stand corrected. You know your history. You might want to keep in mind, though, that this is an alternate history thread, and any individual can play a radically different role in the unfolding of events than they did historically. ~:)

********

You quickly decide on your own idea as the most meritous, with regards to the Venetian question. You're well-versed in Latin, and so feel comfortable penning a letter on your own to the Doge, a fellow named Dominico Contarini. You've never met him, but hopefully he's a reasonable sort. You focus on discussing this as a valuable investment on Venice's part - a military conflict and loss of trade income now, resulting in increased profit over the long term. You summon the Venetian emissary in Constantinople and hand the letter to him personally.

The choice of what leaders to bring with you is tougher. You strongly consider bringing Manuel, but decide that his knowledge might be better used guarding Imperial territory against potential intrusion. The same goes for Botaniates in the east. You were, however, impressed by Alexius' handling of the problems that came up in your journey to the Euphrates, and feel like you got along well with him. You pass along the order that he is to find a replacement to work with the Immortals and join you on campaign. You will humor Andronicus and bring him along, as well. You feel some slight trepidation about the lack of experience this will lend your leadership - you yourself are still young, and Alexius and Andronicus are younger yet, neither having seen more than twenty summers, and none of you have commanded large-scale conflicts before. Still, you've been reading up on Julius Caesar's Memoirs and other classics on strategy, and you plan to bring them with you for consultation. Having the wisdom of such indomitable ancients at your fingertips should help a good deal in overcoming any deficiencies in personal experience.

Alexius, at your suggestion, appoints Constantine Ducas to lead the Immortals in his absence. When you tell Andronicus you've decided to let him accompany you, he doesn't seem as thrilled as you expected. In fact, you know your brother quite well, and you think he's actually rather annoyed, though he tries to hide it. You begin to wonder if Epiphania is already tired of her husband and wanted to get him out of her suite. Still, it would probably hurt his pride if you retracted the offer now, and it might do him good to get out and do something to better the Empre.

You soon begin to muster your thirty thousand, the most you wanted to bring as you've heard there is currently a food shortage in Egypt and you do not want to find yourself unable to feed all your men. It takes a bit of time to gather these soldiers, organize them, and obtain adequate logistical support. You can't help but wish it could be done faster, as the Fatimid caliph is sure to hear about your preparations soon if he hasn't already, but it can't be helped. In any event, Alp Arslan said that it would take him a while to gather his troops as well. The goal is to meet with Arslan in the second week of August near the border of Byzanytine Syria with full armies in tow, where you will coordinate your plans.

The Doge's emissary returns with his reply sooner than you expected. He is happy to inform you that he has accepted your offer and will lend a number of his naval vessels to your noble cause. However, he insists that he will have to keep half of his fleet close to Venice, as he is worried about the possibility of Norman intervention, in which case they might be needed to defend the city.

August seems to roll around very quickly. With the help of Alexius and Andronicus, you assemble your troops at the barracks, form them into columns, and march them from the city. Throngs of people gather by the side of the road in the Mediterranean heat to watch them go. Many cheer, but you get the feeling that most don't really feel much attachment to the foreigners that dominate the army.

Your march takes you south of Cappadocia this time, past Seleucia and Tarsus and on into Syria. These areas are mountainous, with many rocky passes and rushing rivers that spill into valleys and patches of coastal flatland brimming with orchards and vinyards. One of your predecessors, eager to displace the Muslims who had settled here when it was under Arab rule, encouraged Armenians to immigrate in large numbers. His program was so successful that Cilicia is now known sometimes as "Lesser Armenia." In more recent times, even more have arrived after fleeing the conquest of their homeland by the Seljuks. Almost every sign that you see is written in Armenian. It's a tongue that you're passingly familiar with, but you always focused more of your attention in your lingual studies on higher languages, such as Latin and Hebrew.

Syria itself is very different. As you travel, the mountains become drier and drier, eventually turning into flatter desert. You keep close to the coast as long as possible to remain in the relatively hospitable terrain there, but since the meeting takes place near the Byzantine-Seljuk border, you lead your men into the arid lands eventually. Luckily, the Byzantine officers know how to handle desert marches, and help the mercenary leaders, to many of whom this is a new challenge.

Unfortunately, you discover that Alp Arslan is running a bit late. There is only a small encampment of soldiers there, more of a placeholder than an army, among whose number the Sultan is not included. He has, however, sent a message ahead with these men, who tell you that they were instructed to ensure that no eyes see it before yours. When their commander brings it to you he eagerly shows off its unbroken seal, apparently proud of his control over his men. You politely congtratulate him for pursuing his duty so vigilantly and then oust him from your pavillion so you can open it.

"Wise Emperor of the Romans," the letter begins, "I regret that the mustering of my forces has taken slightly longer than projected. I am certain that rushing these matters, however, would result in an unacceptable diminishment of organization. I expect to arrive at our agreed-upon meeting point in no more than three weeks. I hope that you and your followers can forgive me for my tardiness and wait in sufficient comfort for my arrival. I would like to take this opportunity, however, to explain to you the grand strategy I and my advisors have settled on for the opening stages of the invasion, so that you may ruminate on it and, I hope, provide your willing support for it when we meet again face-to-face.

"Once my forces reach the theatre, I believe it would be prudent to divide our two armies once again, with your hardy men advancing directly along the coastline, seizing whatever settlements are possible until significant opposition presents itself. You will then attempt to pin down the opposing forces and force a stalemate. In the meantime, because my followers are, if I may be so bold as to say so, more suited to desert travel than your own, I will bring them through the transJordanian lands to the east of our objective settlements, then, while you occupy regional defenders, I will take Gaza and leave the majority of my troops there to prevent reinforcement from Egypt, while the rest proceeds north, where, if God wills it, we will surround and eliminate the defenders between us."

You do indeed ruminate on this a bit, then present it to your two advisors. You're reluctant to wait an entire three weeks for Arslan to show up, as the Egyptians definitely know you're coming by now, and the longer you wait the more time they will have to prepare. You don't know the current state of Egyptian readiness, but they can't be getting any weaker. You explain this to Alexius and Andronicus after they each read the letter. "I would prefer we pressed forward with the attack as soon as possible, giving them less time to stockpile food and arrows and train defensive militias. It seems wiser to me to attack while the enemy is weakest, and then go as far into his territory as possible, rather than waiting for him to strengthen while my own men become bored and lazy with waiting in Antioch. When the Sultan arrives he can block Gaza as he planned, but we would by that point have gained more land with greater casualties to the enemy, and securing the Levant would be only an exercise in cleaning up the surviving forces."

Alexius disagrees. "Sire, I believe it would be prudent to wait for the Sultan so we may act with greater strength. In fact, simple though it sounds, I advise against going through with the Sultan's plan, and instead advancing along the coast with our two armies in tandem, each supporting the other in battle. In this way we could coordinate very well with each other and bring enormous force to bear on the defense that presents itself. We would advance inexorably across the Holy Land and then into Egypt."

Andronicus has a more ambitious plan. "Let us use our naval strength, brother. Arslan offered us Alexandria if we could take it. We should do so. Not only would this secure the city for us in the long term, it would also go a long way toward cutting off vital supplies and food from the West, as Alexandria is one of the two main ports in Egypt. The other is Damietta, and naturally we would want to take this as well as soon as possible. We would direct an aggressive maritime assault on the Egyptian navy, and as soon as we are able, push our transports through to establish our presence in Alexandria. From there, we would do as much damage to Fatimid military capabilities as possible while Arslan conquers the Levant for us and then comes in to help us finish off the Fatimids in their heartland."

Your are now choosing an overarching strategy to assume in the coming months:

1) Follow the Sultan's plan. Cut off reinforcement and destroy the Palestinian defenders between you.

2) Follow your own wiles. Attack fast and hard, relying on your own strength only, before the Fatimids can reinforce the Levant any more.

3) Follow Alexius' advice. Join your army with the Sultan's and slowly roll over the Levant with overwhelming force.

4) Follow Andronius' plan. Attack aggressively in the naval sphere, land your army in Alexandria, and attack the Fatimid heartland directly.

Geoffrey S
09-17-2005, 10:11
I'm going for 1. 2 sounds way too risky, paticularly with the lack of experienced leaders in your army. 3 also isn't too good, as it would be slow going, and armies working in tandem often created more problems than not due to differing views of commanders.

King Henry V
09-17-2005, 11:48
I say go for 4. It would be excellent to open a second front, but wait until the Sultan attacks Syria before embarking. You need most of the Fatamid forces concentrated on the Syrian borders so that you can take them by suprise in the rear. Let the Sultan have heavy casualties in the beginning, it will make his conquest slower and yours easier. And remeber, the Sultan only accorded you Alexandria and Damietta if you could take them.

Geoffrey S
09-17-2005, 12:04
I'd usually say 4 too, but Michael and his companions seem too inexperienced to pull off such a complicated manoeuvre. Getting the ships organised, loading the troops, and actually getting to the target is a process in which much can go wrong; even more experienced commanders found it a trouble without extensive preperation. Following 1 means that Michael's inexperience is balanced by the Sultan's skills.
Remember, Michael isn't really cut out for the military side of things, and his company at present lacks men with extensive experience of waging war.

DemonArchangel
09-17-2005, 13:02
If I (the player) could take full control of the organization, it would be so much easier, so #4 in that case.

Unfortunately, there could be a lack of ships, and the Venetians are a rather untrustworthy bunch. Maybe plan #1 would work.

SwordsMaster
09-17-2005, 13:21
I'd take 4. You have to use your allies and with venetian support you should be able to destroy the Egyptian navy. In the worst scenario, if you cannot take the city, you can embark back and ship back to Palestine or wherever.

And besides, I'd rather be doing something instead of sitting by the seashore for 3 weeks...

Kraxis
09-17-2005, 13:45
Well... You do have your own Byzantine Navy on top of the Venetian ships. That should be enough to overpower the Egyptian Navy. I take it that the Byzantine and Egyptian navies were about equal at this time, so the Venetian ships are crucial.
While we are stronger it is not a critical mass. A reverse at sea could easily happen, but I expect that experienced naval commanders are in charge of either fleet, so there should be enough capable advises when the time comes for naval warfare.

On the other hand, it is extremely complex to organize this, but we have three weeks to do it. It should be enough to make it happen, with perhaps the Sultan coming by in time for you to explain the plan. He will most likely agree to it (in the hopes that you will tie up any reinforcements, he is after all still going to trap the Fatimid army in the Levant).

It carries on the instance of rather easy victory at sea, or else you risk losing a lot of troops in needless fashion.
I still say #4, but only because we are there to guide it. Had it been Alexius or Andronicus alone I would never have gone for it.

SwordsMaster
09-17-2005, 15:02
Actually, It just occurred to me: Embark on your ships and head over to Gaza. Land and push the egyptian army towards the advancing Turks. That way you are the one controlling the access of egyptian reinforcements into PAlestine and have the route into the egyptian heartlands open. Then let the Sultan deal with the Egyptians and make haste to Alexandria and Damietta.

How about that?

Kraxis
09-17-2005, 16:07
Could work... But remember that the army in the Levant is merely 'local', and not the entire Fatimid force. We risk that the other forces attack us in the back while engaged with the army in Palestine.
That is the reason why I think Arslan will agree to #4, then he won't have to think about that part of the army hitting him in the back (because we are dealing with it).

King Henry V
09-17-2005, 16:41
P.S Vykke, this is an excellent Alternate History, I'm hooked. Better than damned soaps!

SwordsMaster
09-17-2005, 18:07
Could work... But remember that the army in the Levant is merely 'local', and not the entire Fatimid force. We risk that the other forces attack us in the back while engaged with the army in Palestine.
That is the reason why I think Arslan will agree to #4, then he won't have to think about that part of the army hitting him in the back (because we are dealing with it).


Exactly, but that army being local will not stand against our army so we will skirmish and make them retreat and fortify ourselves against the forces coming from Egypt. And because goofing it from Egypt is significantly slower than sailing we will have enough time to prepare, choose and fortify the position before they arrive. In the meantime the Sultan or your own advanced forces will be able to either crush or keep pushing away the palestinian army. We only need to push them away until they are closer to the Sultan than they are to us.

What just occurred to me: send a message to Ducas and tell him to be prepared in case the Turks are not "delayed" but heading into the empire.

King Henry V
09-17-2005, 18:21
What just occurred to me: send a message to Ducas and tell him to be prepared in case the Turks are not "delayed" but heading into the empire.
Good idea, SwordsMaster. I don't trust those foreigners..... ~;)

AntiochusIII
09-17-2005, 20:27
Well, considering that we do have Venetian ships and a mighty Byzantine navy at our disposal, I'd risk the naval offensive. While we wait for Arslan, the precious time should not be lost sitting around doing nothing. The troops hate that, and morale will plummet before the real war starts. The Fatimids may be strong at sea, but Byzantium is stronger. I believe the navy must have some really experienced admirals in charge, considering the Byzantine naval history. A setback should not be destructive, with Venice backing you up, while a victory would make the war much easier.

The Sultans, as Kraxis suggested, should not be troubled by Byzantium's efforts to take the "promised gifts." In fact, he may want you to do exactly this, just to pin down the Fatimid forces in Egypt. Hence the promise of two most important ports in Egypt.

Choice 4.

Choice 1 would give up a crucial momentum, and reduce your troops' morale as they have nothing to do. Why would they march so far from home just to take a vacation at the Syrian seaside for three whole weeks?

Choice 2, the Blitz, would've worked with a larger force, and more experienced commanders, but Arslan may as well turn his army into your heartland for that, knowing your hands tied with the Fatimids.

Choice 3 has the same problem with choice 1, and the Sultan may as well refuse to agree with you, causing much trouble for the campaign.

Oh yes, and do make sure that the army at home is vigilant for any kind of intrusion on a battle-ready state. Send messages to both Manuel/John Ducas at Constantinople and Botaniates at the Eastern frontier to keep vigilant eyes for invaders. Botaniates may be a little disappointed with you not calling him (he probably take pride at being considered the most experienced Roman general of the time) but with a message along the line of "as you're our most experienced general I trust you the defense of Asia Minor in case the Turks stab our back. Call the Alans if it so happens" he'd be more agreeable.

Azi Tohak
09-18-2005, 03:32
I suppose there is no point in arguing now. I think #4 sounds like an exciting adventure... but it also smells like the 5th crusade. Worked... sort of (but also hit Damietta, not Alexandria). But again, I am very worried Alp is going to stab into Anatolia. Wouldn't that just suck?

Botaniates might also consider using some of his money on those Saxons...? Hummm? I think they could prove useful and he has to have some serious cash. I think he is totally loyal and I don't like the idea of renegade Turcomans raiding while Michael is away with so many troops (wherever they came from).

Azi

Vykke
09-18-2005, 06:54
I take it that the Byzantine and Egyptian navies were about equal at this time, so the Venetian ships are crucial. While we are stronger it is not a critical mass. A reverse at sea could easily happen, but I expect that experienced naval commanders are in charge of either fleet, so there should be enough capable advises when the time comes for naval warfare.

That's a pretty good assessment of the situation at sea. Michael hasn't spent much time boning up on naval tactics, so he intends to take a relatively hands-off approach to that part of the conflict when possible. In the event #4 is chosen, the admirals will be making the plans for breaking through the Fatimid fleet. If #1 is chosen, they'll still engage the Fatimids, but in a more cautious fashion, with the intent to inflict attrition and disrupt their trade rather than hammering through their fleet.

Demonarchangel, you're the deciding vote here. You've got to pick one or the other. :sweatdrop:

King Henry V
09-18-2005, 15:11
Demonarchangel, you're the deciding vote here. You've got to pick one or the other. :sweatdrop:
Yes, it's up to you. Whatever you decide will be good, BUT 4 WILL BE THE BEST! I'm not putting you under any pressure here, but Vote Four!

AntiochusIII
09-18-2005, 17:22
I'm not putting you under any pressure here, but Vote Four! :dizzy2:

~D

I trust his judgement, that he'll see the wisdom of choice [censored - must..not..put..pressure]. After all, he's a crazed liberal warmonger! ~;)

GoreBag
09-18-2005, 19:47
Let's go with number 4. If those Turks turn out to be traitors...

DemonArchangel
09-19-2005, 00:36
4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kraxis
09-19-2005, 10:37
Double post

Kraxis
09-19-2005, 10:38
4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are such a pushover... ~;)
It only took almost a page of arguments to win you over... BAH! ~D

DemonArchangel
09-19-2005, 19:08
No, I haven't been reading the page for the last 48 hours. So I hit 4 when Vykke wanted me to decide.

King Henry V
09-20-2005, 20:46
Come on Vykke, we want more! It's been three days already since the last episode. We need an update!

Vykke
09-20-2005, 22:39
The Sultan's plan sounds eminently reasonable, if only he'd been ready to help execute it on time. As things stand now, you would end up having to force your men to sit idly by while you wait for as long as three weeks, or even more. Who knows what else might come up to delay your honorable ally. His and Alexius' plans are therefore right out. Andronicus' plan, however, has a good deal of appeal. It promises one or both ports and, potentially, a fast and decisive resolution to the war as you and Alp Arslan wage a two-prong assault on the enemy. It may also convince the Venetians that you're serious about upholding your end of the bargain - something you couldn't do if you don't manage to take Alexandria or Damietta before Arslan. Your decision brings that familiar smile to Andronicus' face you remember from childhood.

As soon as you are able, you turn your troops around and march them to Laodicea, sending an order ahead to Petros Sgouropoulos, your lead admiral, telling him what needs to be done. You keep your orders simple and vague, sticking to goals and time constraints, rather than actually telling him how to accomplish them. You don't consider yourself knowledgable enough of naval warfare to direct this sort of thing yourself; hopefully you can rely on your admirals to carry the day. You leave the Sultan's men at the meeting-place to inform him of your change of plans when he arrives.

You and your army wait outside Laodicea for several days for the fleet to gather. The city is the largest port in Syria and you find it interesting to watch goods flow south or north or back out into the sea as merchant ships resupply and than cast off again or pick up new cargoes just arrived from Antioch. Sometimes you wish you had more time to deal with the true lifeblood of a country, economics, but other circumstances always seem to be more pressing.

Other elements of the fleet are already skirmishing with the Egyptians and trying to chase them from the Nile Delta without success. Still, the number of ships that have been summoned here into a single fleet is impressive. The merchant shipping you were watching attentively just two days ago has now been almost completely replaced with martial vessels docking for resupply. A plethora of galleys rests at anchor just outside the harbor, ranging in size from the relatively light Ousiako to the mighty Dromons. The Venetians, too, rely primarily on galleys, although most of theirs are converted merchant vessels rather than dedicated warships. Nonetheless, their reputation for seamanship is peerless.

As soon as Sgouropoulos arrives, you meet with him in the harbormaster's building. The admiral is not in very good spirits, and he wastes little time in explaining why. The Venetians do not like the plan he has made for inserting your troops into Alexandria, and they do not consider his authority to extend to them, so he finds himself unable to compel them to do so. Perhaps, however, if you support him, they will fall in line and carry out their part in the plan. You don't feel comfortable lending your authourity to something without knowing what it is, though, so you ask him to explain his plan and what the Venetians want, all the while feeling your earlier commitment to keep your fingers out of the navy flying out the window.

"The reasonable thing to do in these circumstances, your majesty, would be to remove the Fatimid naval threat in the area before we do anything else. We either force them to commit to a battle that we'll win because of our numbers, or we chase them away or hole them up somewhere. Regardless, we want them contained or out of the picture before we load our ships with men and transport them over."

"And what do the Venetians want, good admiral?"

Sgouropoulos rolls his eyes. "They are eager to take the prize, Imperator. Too much so for me. They would prefer we load an army onto our ships before we have established a landing-place, and force our way through the Fatimid ships with soldiers already on board many of them to make a landing. They place more importance on time than on prudence and safety."

Andronicus pipes up. "How long would it take to open Alexandria to begin the invasion, according to your plan?"

"Hard to say for certain. It depends on how soon they commit to fight or flee, and how well their ships account for themselves in battle."

"Please, we need some sort of estimate," your brother urges.

"A week, perhaps. Probably no more than two. And then several days more to ferry men, horses, and equipment from here to Alexandria."

"I like the Venetians' strategy better," Andronicus declares. "We should arrive before they know our goal. How many men would we be able to bring with us under our initial assault?"

Sgouropoulos grudgingly considers. "I'm not clear on the carrying capabilities of some of the Venetian ships. Perhaps eight to ten thousand. The rest of the army could come over once the smoke dissipates."

"That's not really enough. I want at least fifteen thousand there. We don't want to go to the trouble to land in Egypt just to play defensively," Andronicus insists. "What if we replaced the marines on our ships with soldiers temporarily? We could take more over then in our war-galleys."

"Soldiers aren't the same as marines, sir."

"I know that," Andronicus snaps. "But what if we did? And we could increase the cargo space devoted to soldiers and equipment. We could scavenge for food and supplies for a little while, until more ships arrived."

"We could probably get as high as you say. Maybe even twenty thousand if we really push our carrying capacity and sacrifice most of the food exta equipment we were going to bring. But I don't like it."

Andronicus is about to retort, but you cut him off. "Enough bickering. I've heard enough. Please retire to the next room. I will consider and come to a decision immediately."

The two of them do as you bid, leaving you to choose who has the right of things.

1. Support Sgouropoulos' plan. You don't want to risk unnecessary losses on both your navy and army if ships get scuttled or captured in a rushed landing.

2. Order Sgouropoulos to follow to Venetians' plan. Load up merchant vessels and the reserve ships with men and attack with the laden ships in the rear, while the unburdened ships do the fighting. If all goes well, you would have Alexandria within days.

3. Order them to load up all the ships with soldiers, including replacing the marines with soldiers until after the landing, when the ships will return to Laodicea to pick up their comrades. You must also choose whether or not to sacrifice provisions for the sake of more men.
a. Keep the original, more conventional ratio of soldiers to supplies.
b. Increase the number of soldiers carried at the expense of supplies. Your men might have to plunder for food at first, but it's worth it for the extra manpower in the early stages of the offensive.

AntiochusIII
09-20-2005, 22:50
Welcome back, Vykke. How's your weekend?

Anyway, it is clear that the admiral knows what he's doing. We cannot just waste our forces away in haste. That we even commit to this plan in the first place is enough of a statement that we want Alexandria and Damietta (and therefore the Venetian trade privileges.) Naval backlash could be harsh on a transport fleet. Who are the Venetians to care? And how experienced or skilled militarily is Andronicus? Not satisfactory. He's just acting with, I presume, glee that you agreed with him at first. Clear the sea of the Fatimids, and march in. Any setbacks at this stage will not be serious, and the plan could be abandoned without too much losses. And if we really can't take the citadels once we landed? Just sail back through a safe sea.

Choice 1.

AggonyDuck
09-21-2005, 00:11
Yup, choice one is the safest. Entering hostile territory without secure supply lines is in my opinion suicide...

Kraxis
09-21-2005, 00:23
Yes, it has to be #1...

The Fatimid navy is currently not being bullied away. It intends to fight you. Doing the fight either half- or fully burdened is not a good way of winning a battle.
Besides this will only pre-emt the Sultan a little, so your coordination will work wonders

Cataphract_Of_The_City
09-21-2005, 00:27
I agree with the admiral. And given that Arslan will take almost a month to attack the Fatimids, it would not be wise to attack so soon. It will probably give the enemy enough time to concentrate its force on one foe at a time.

DemonArchangel
09-21-2005, 01:54
Choice 1, our supply lines need securing.

Azi Tohak
09-21-2005, 05:45
Geesh. Lots of cooperation amongst us here isn't there?

Choice 1.

Move quickly when the moment demands (like the Turk raiders on the trip to see Alp), but I always prefer caution.

Azi

King Henry V
09-21-2005, 10:53
Choice one is by far the wisest. A reverse at sea could be fatal if you bring your troops with you at the same time, with the army being captured or sunk. Andronicus's plan also sounds risky, all the Egyptians would need to do is carry out a scorched earth policy and the expidition would fail. And anyway, you need to wait a bit to allow the Sultan to commit his troops, thus dividing the enemy forces. A hard campaing fro you and an easy one for the Sultan is not what is wanted.

GoreBag
09-21-2005, 17:45
I don't like waiting around either, but number 1 it is.

AntiochusIII
10-01-2005, 20:29
Ahh...is this thread dead or what? The story's just really started--the Fatimid campaign is just beginning. We haven't even had a real battle yet!

*waits with patience*

Azi Tohak
10-01-2005, 22:24
I think Vykke got his hands on BI... so now he can live out his dreams!

(Well... sort of...)

Azi

Kraxis
10-02-2005, 03:44
I think Vykke got his hands on BI... so now he can live out his dreams!

(Well... sort of...)

Azi
Thing often come in the way, be it BI, work, homework, stress, loss of inspiration... I have suffered all of the above at some point in my series.

Just be confident that Vykke will come back. He will notice how many posts that have been made to the last choice so I doubt he has just given it up.

Flavius Clemens
10-02-2005, 14:30
Thing often come in the way, be it BI, work, homework, stress, loss of inspiration... I have suffered all of the above at some point in my series.

Just be confident that Vykke will come back. He will notice how many posts that have been made to the last choice so I doubt he has just given it up.

I've been following both series with great interest, and am more than eager to see the next developments in both, but 100% with you guys that real life can take priority. ~:cool:

Vykke
10-09-2005, 06:13
Thanks for the show of support, guys. As much as I'd like to claim BI as my excuse, it's mostly writing-fatigue that's been holding me back. This thread is fun, but I didn't realize how much work it would be!

Still, I haven't given up, and I think I've just about got my wind back. With luck I should have another post out there in the next couple days.

Ludens
10-09-2005, 11:55
Thanks for the show of support, guys. As much as I'd like to claim BI as my excuse, it's mostly writing-fatigue that's been holding me back. This thread is fun, but I didn't realize how much work it would be!

Still, I haven't given up, and I think I've just about got my wind back. With luck I should have another post out there in the next couple days.
Take you time, Vykke. I have enjoyed reading this because it is quality writing, and I don't want that quality to drop because you are writing against your will. But please, do continue. ~D

Azi Tohak
10-09-2005, 17:30
Fine! I see how it is! You just don't love us anymore! ~:mecry:

I can't blame you. I can't right much at a time, especially over something that I mainly have to make up, without taking a nice break every now and then.

Back to BI! ~:handball:

Azi

King Henry V
10-10-2005, 17:52
Yes! This story isn't dead! Hooray!~:cheers: :balloon2:

King Henry V
10-29-2005, 19:23
Maybe I spoke too soon?~:mecry:

Kommodus
11-09-2005, 21:36
Well, I've finally caught up with this one, now that Kraxis' battle of Kursk is over (I had already read some of it earlier). In the current decision, #1 looks like the correct choice, for the same reasons other have mentioned. In addition, once we've cleared the sea of the Fatamid navy, we will have a choice to land at Alexandria or Damietta. Which one will we choose? The Egyptians don't know. If they strongly fortify one, we just go for the other.

Vykke, if you want to reduce your workload on this thread, maybe the thing to do is to limit the amount of choice the participants have a little. If you give people too many choices at too many points in the story, it can branch out wildly - I never would have thought that a combined Turkish/Roman invasion of Egypt would be the result of our negotiations with Arslan. This sort of thing is fun, but it means a lot of writing for you.

Just my humble opinion, though. Do whatever you want!

Kraxis
11-28-2005, 15:17
It is my sad duty to let the story slide... It is greatly told and it is a most inspiring style, but Vykke hadn't posted for months. We have to assume it is dead.

It is time to make room for more lively threads.